george, the great promise breaker

[speyfly]

Well, after 9/11 and george's promise for more funding to the first line defenders of this country, he broke his promise to them and broke their hearts too. He promised Aids relief to Africa but that too was just an empty promise. He will say anything but deliver on nothing.

NY Times...
Helping Poor Countries
n his budget this year, President Bush is proposing to both increase and overhaul foreign aid spending. While the proposal begins too slowly, Mr. Bush is reinvigorating one of the most necessary and unjustly reviled federal programs.

America ranks dead last among wealthy countries in foreign aid as a percentage of the economy. The new program helps, but the ranking remains unchanged. Foreign aid is less than 1 percent of the budget, and most of it goes to military or economic support for strategically important, but not particularly needy, friends — mainly Israel, Egypt, Colombia and Jordan. This furthers American interests but should not be confused with development aid.

The additional funds will start slowly, with only $1.3 billion budgeted for next year — less than promised. The program is designed to provide aid only to countries well-governed enough to use it correctly and to induce others to institute reforms. This is good as long as the program remains an addition to programs that help people living under less enlightened leadership. Washington must be careful not to let the new program become a substitute for helping the most miserable. The most worrisome aspect of the plan is that after the first two years, nations with incomes of nearly $3,000 per capita qualify. This means allies like Russia and Egypt — rather than needier countries like Bangladesh and Mali — would suck up most of the money.

The other new criteria make sense. High percentages of national budgets must be spent on education and health, and a set proportion of the population must get basic vaccinations. Deficits and inflation must be kept under control, and a short startup time for new businesses is required.

Mr. Bush's other foreign aid initiative, announced in his State of the Union address, is $10 billion in new money to fight AIDS in Africa and the Caribbean over five years. But his budget falls short of that promise. He is proposing only a $550 million increase over the global AIDS money in this year's spending bill now in Congress. Since the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria would be an effective channel for the aid, there is no excuse for the initiative's leisurely start. Mr. Bush's 2004 budget for the Global Fund, $200 million, actually cuts in half what Congress is likely to do in 2003.

Mr. Bush has also found part of the money for his AIDS programs by cutting nearly $500 million from child health, including vaccine programs. Child survival is the biggest loser in the foreign aid budget — a scandalous way to finance AIDS initiatives. With the budget dominated by defense spending and huge tax cuts for the wealthy, the White House should not be forcing the babies of Africa to pay for their parents' AIDS drugs.

[The Fishing Geek]

When I heard his SOTU and listened to him tic off all of these new humanitarian programs, it should be no surprise to anyone that I thought they were suspect. New funding like that doesn't normally come from Republican leadership, and certainly wouldn't be approved by a Republican-lead congress.

I haven't seen the figure in awhile, but I'll bet that our interest payment on all that debt that we have is still a large percentage of our spending. I wonder how many other modernized countries are in the same hole. This doesn't excuse our lack of foreign aide. Just something related, possibly.

[Thumper]

Hey there lefties ... make up your mind. You complain if Bush promises AIDS assistance, you complain if he doesn't, you complain if he proposes increases in foreign aid, then you trivialize the amount that we do spend.

Youse guys don't have an agenda do you??? :smile:

[ 02-17-2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Thumper ]

[speyfly]

Thumper, just pointing out that our commander in THIEF is a liar and morally bankrupt. That’s all!

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by Thumper:
Hey there lefties ... make up your mind. You complain if Bush promises AIDS assistance, you complain if he doesn't, you complain if he proposes increases in foreign aid, then you trivialize the amount that we do spend.

Youse guys don't have an agenda do you??? :smile:

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Actually, you righty :tongue: , I complain anytime someone makes promises and doesn't keep them. I complain louder when I feel that the person didn't intend to keep that promise in the first place.

Promises are empty words if they are not followed up with action.

We need honest politicians like Clinton/Gore,
Al Sharpton. and Carol Mosley-Braun.

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by speyfly:
Thumper, just pointing out that our commander in THIEF is a liar and morally bankrupt. That’s all!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Hey Speyfly - Ever listen to Michael Savage's "The Savage Nation" on KXL radio? His theory is that virulent leftwing ideology and kneejerk protesting of any Republican administration, no matter what, is a symptom of psychosis.....a mental defect, disorder or illness. According to Savage, it is the anti-American leftwing that lies and is morally corrupt and bankrupt. That may seem like a sweeping generalization......but, then I look around and I wonder if he isn't basically on the right track.

[Kruechief]

And "slick Willie" was a saint!

President Bush is a strong president who has surrounded himself with intelligent leaders. That is part of being a "good" leader. One has to know their own flaws and then hire teammates that strengthen those areas. Or, do like Bill Clinton, and marry Satan and then let her run the country for you... either way I guess.

Bush had the backbone to tell NATO the truth about their irrelevance.

If Bush raises the threat levels he is chastised if he doesn’t then he failed the country by not keeping you informed.

The left screams about the Republicans' lack of support for minorities yet Dims continue partisan bickering over Miguel Estrada. What a joke the "left" has become.

Tom Daschle is puke; thanks South Dakota for that gem… not!

Krue

[Kruechief]

GSA,

Thank God that I can still say... THANK GOD!

Savage Nation

Krue

[speyfly]

Krew, why can't you let go of Clinton? That is past history and has nothing to do with anything. Oh, that’s right, you have to blame someone for george’s weaknesses and his inability to lead. This is george's watch now and he needs to take full responsibility for what is happening. To try to put the blame on someone else is weak on your part. Remember the world was behind us after 9/11. He has pi**ed it all away. Not much of a world leader is he!

GSA, I can see where you get your information. Hate radio is not where I get my information. BTW you need to get new stuff cause you have posted that before.

[ 02-17-2003, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

Krue,
You respect Tom Daschle enough to call him that? I feel he is lower than that. In fact if I steped in dog Daschle I'd burn my boots.

Spey,
Hate radio=anything that you disagree with?
Your leftist worshiping of [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] Clinton [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] and the redneck mafia is disgusting.

[ 02-17-2003, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by speyfly:
GSA, I can see where you get your information. Hate radio is not where I get my information. BTW you need to get new stuff cause you have posted that before.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Yeah, go ahead and dismiss conservative opinion as "hate radio".........the true haters are the Eugene and UofO liberals who coerced local KUGN to drop Savage's radio show.

My advice: Get used to hearing "extreme liberalism = mental illness". The more the leftwing carries on about Bush being the next thing to Hitler, about Bush wanting a "war for oil", about the terrible imperialism of the USA, etc. etc.......the more I believe it.

Savage Nation...Dittoheads...
You "righties" crack me up.

[Kruechief]

Spey,

We learn from HISTORY!

The definition of insanity is performing the same behaviors and expecting a different result. Answer to the issues. Estrada, not minority enough??? Paalease!

The history I see being made by the liberals of TODAY is a legacy of splitting this country and polarizing each side. The left is so :whazzup: that they can't even keep track of their lies and agenda.

Hillary, Bill, both Als (Sharpton and Gore) and Tom are scum sucking bottom feeders and not the kind we like to catch , pure and simple.

Beware of the false prophets and path they lead you down.

Krue

[monoman]

Stew
Do you really believe all "righties" are dittoheads? Have a little more to say than name calling!

Spey
Passed history? We will be dealing with the lack of actions of Clinton for years, much like we will be dealing with the actions of Bush for years. History should never be forgotten, Let alone brushed away as if things never happened. History is how you learn, but I have seen little of that here. You post figures and statements and web site cut and paste, yet nothing that can be backup with real facts. Your name calling of the President is going a little far, I find it flamming and down right evil. If you want to call names back it up with facts, not newspaper articles with bylines, lets see your data.

Part of the problem is due to the fact that colleges aren't teaching American history and the Constitution any more. There was a study that asked graduates of the top 10 universities questions on history and the Constitution and 90% got either a "D" or an "F".

"Those that fail to learn from history will re-live it"

[speyfly]

krew, why do you bring up things that have nothing to do with this conversation? I think it is to try to defend the indefensible. I also think that it is due to the weakness in your position. I have not said anything about Clinton, Gore, Sharpton, Hillary, Daschle or any other Democrat. I do listen to moderate conservatives and value their insight and stance on many issues. I think YOU are the ones that are the extremists in this debate. You change the subject at the drop of the hat. A lot of misdirection is what the extreme right resorts too when they can’t defend their position. A commonly used tactic that is used by the right is to call patriots that choose dissent over following party lines unpatriotic.

I know that there are many more people that feel passionate about their position in the streets right now. Where are the ones that support your position? Hmmm, their not is the streets telling the world that there’re right. They are at home, all warm and fuzzy praying that good ole george will send our young solders into battle to make sure that you don’t have to sacrifice anything. Maybe too lazy too! Yup, I think that the extreme right are cowards.

[ 02-17-2003, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

[Thumper]

Well, that was refreshing. Another cleansing round of discussion. I really feel we are growing closer day by day......... [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img]

Spey,
If it wasn't so lame you'd be funny. :depressed:

[speyfly]

mono, you ask for facts, give me a list that you would like and I will research it for you. Now lets talk about facts, I have yet to see any recent facts come out of the White House. What I do see is that they are working feverishly to try to come up with something that would defend their position.

As far as the media (all, not just bias conservative) and the facts, it is a great source of information. Remember, if it is not factual, the media either has to retract it or they get their pants sued off. I have not see any retraction about any reports on this administration. If I am wrong, please bring it to mine and the world’s attention.

"bias conservative" media, like CNNBCBSMSNBCMOUSE?

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by speyfly:
.........patriots that choose descent over following party lines..........

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Yup, descent pretty well sums up where you liberal "patriots" are headed. :tongue:

[speyfly]

Keta, not just those sources, all sources. I also read the information provided by the GOP. As a citizen of this country it is my duty to get the truth from all sources. You are pretty good about your one-liners but you rarely bring anything of any substance other than rhetoric.

[monoman]

OK Spey!
Prove your statement. Let's see your facts on WMD given to saddam! Than take your chicken and smoke it!

[Boedy]

Originally posted by speyfly:
Boedy, please keep in mind that it was Rumsfeld and this countries leaders that gave Saddam the WMD to use against Iran and his civilian population.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">So? 20 years ago we gave him some weapons to fight the country we saw as the biggest threat to us at the time. The country that took our embassy staff hostage for how long and made numerous threats against us.. Remember the enemy of my enemy is my friend?. Just what WMD did we give him anyway? Please show me the proof on that one and make sure its from a real source not some left wing think tank internet site.

As soon as we saw what Saddam’s true colors where we stopped supporting him. Hind site is always 20/20 right. Anyway if you want to go back over the last 200 hundred years and bring up everything that helped shaped the situation we are in instead of dealing with the facts of today then fine. I on the other hand will worry about how to end the current threat to us and not drag up past administrations mistakes.

[ 02-17-2003, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: Boedy ]

[speyfly]

Originally posted by monoman:
Spey
Let's deal in these questions.
What should we do with Saddam?

What should we do with coutries that want to send WMD our way?

You have called the Bush many names in post over the last couple of days, please show your facts on him being stupid, committing crimes and so on?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Question #1. Since george has done such a poor job selling the world on taking care of Saddam (only 10% of the Brits support this war now) with his gun slinging rhetoric we need a lot more inspectors and take them away from him. If we do anything different it will blow up in our face.

2. We cannot strike preemptively against any country without rock solid evidence that we are about to be attacked.

3. Just take a look at how angry the world is at the US and you will receive the answer to your third question. Foreign policy should be handled very carefully but this administration has chosen to dictate world policy with it’s holier-than-thou oratory. Not a smart move on georges part. Every time george speaks publicly the markets drops again because of his words. So yes I call him dumb.

[Kruechief]

Spey,

What or which WMDS did we give to Saddam? Nerve gas, nuclear... what?

Krue

[speyfly]

Krew, from what I have read (and that has been a lot) it was the chemical weapons (gas) that we supplied Saddam. At that time he was the lesser of the evils in the region. Now look what our previous administration actions have given us to deal with.

[Kruechief]

Spey,

(only 10% of the Brits support this war now)

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">"Although Blair has enthusiastically rallied behind Washington's tough stance on Iraq, opposition to war in Britain is strong. Opinion polls indicate a large majority of Britons oppose military action against Saddam's regime without U.N. backing."

10%???? Dude put down the pipe!!!!!!

Facts man, Facts...

Krue

monoman,
Unfortunately Spey is right about the US giving Iraq WMD's. Thr Reagan administration did it during the Iran/Iraq war.

[True]

Spey,

You're doing a great job. Way to ask for questins to answer. Very focused.

I wasn't surprised to see so many people out on Saturday protesting the war. It's a shame that some of the young (anarchists) were taking it to far blocking traffic and causing problems for the police. I hate that. They just move the cause back when they do this. Someone on another thread said that around 1% of the protesters were in the older crowd. But looking at the faces on Saturday I would say that at least 50% were over 30. There were also parents of troops there as well. Refreshing to see.

True

[Kruechief]

It's a shame that some of the young (anarchists) were taking it to far blocking traffic and causing problems for the police. I hate that.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Well said True [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Krue

[speyfly]

Here ya go krew, right from our congress. CLICK HERE

[speyfly]

krew, todays news polls say that the Britts support onthe war with Iraq is now down to 10%.

[ 02-17-2003, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

[monoman]

Keta
I believe it may be true, but most of his facts have been fantasy, I want his proof.

Spey
The inspectors are not taking anything away from him, they are just trying to find it! Do you think he will let the UN come into his country and inspect everything? Just how will it blow up?

#2
Yes we can! There is nothing stating this in anywhere in Law.

#3
It was Powell who wanted this to go to the UN, Bush was happy taking our friends with us(over 30 counties) and taking Saddam out. But let's get back to your answer. Come back with a better answer than that, If you keep calling him dumb, I'm going to take my ball and go home. Nobody here has call you dumb, and my guess the line is long, so let's stop the name calling of the President. Your veiw of the market is not based on any fact. Study wall street a little better before you become the stock guru of the mindless!

True
How many of them were from 30 to45?

[ 02-17-2003, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: monoman ]

[Boedy]

Originally posted by True:
There were also parents of troops there as well. Refreshing to see.

True

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I’m sure any of the troops that had parents there are ashamed of it and wouldn’t dare admit it to anybody.

Any protest against the war is still seen as a protest against the troops by the troops and hurts their moral.

The protest of the Vietnam era are still all to fresh in the minds of every soldier and when we / they see protest like the one last Saturday it just reinforces the negative feelings they have for them. You think you are doing them a service by protesting but your not, they would rather you support them like in the first gulf war.

I think they protest because they are so use to getting what they want from their over privileged youth. I think they learned that the way to get what they want is stomp their feet and cry aloud about it until they get their way much like a 2 year old does when it wants a cookie.

[speyfly]

Boedy, I think you're nuts. 58,000 young men and women died in Viet Nam for a lie perpetrated by our government. Obviously you have never heard of the Pentagon Papers.

[ 02-17-2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

[monoman]

I'm a very proud parent of a Marine, I did not protest and would never do so to harm or insult my son. He is in the service so they can protest. So if you did protest and needed to be mace please thank him and those like him.

[monoman]

Spey
NUTS!! you are such a name caller, you really must think you know more than anybody else. Enjoy!

[monoman]

Just remember who got us there, yes I know the french, the Democrats...remember that!!
It was my main man Nixon that got us out!

[speyfly]

Yup , by the time Daniel Ellsberg leaked the information there were just a mere 33,000 dead. Your Man Nixon killed another 25,000 US troops and hundred of thousands of SE Asians needlessly. Nixon was a great guy huh.

Spey,
Apples and oranges. And Viet Nam was a Democrat created mess. Nixon tried to get us out with out S. Viet Nam collapsing, didn't work though.

[speyfly]

Well Keta, I guess that Iraq will be a Republican mess. So what! People are going to die for another unjust war.

More of a bipartisan mess due to Madelein Not Bright and Clinton's lack of a clue as how diplomacy works in the arab world. Mostly Regan and Bush Sr. created problems but not all.

[True]

Monoman, I didn't actually go out and poll how many were in the older group. I spent the better part of the day steelheading on the Hood (no luck by the way but one good strike).

I would think that a parent wouldn't want their child to go to war at all to defend their government's "industrial interests", I mean country, especially when it is overseas. Who wants their child in harms way. Do not get me wrong. I am glad to have them here defending us when the time is necessary but why have them away from home? It takes a brave parent to stand up for their beliefs, not a coward.

I wonder what type of sentiment would wash over that parent having a child come home in a body bag (Diety forbid)? Maybe a true patriotic mother and father would look at each other and have the tears run down their faces and say, "We regret that we have only one child to give." I'd rather mine come home.

Isn't it just easier to give weapons to the enemy of your enemy and let them do it? Oh, yeah. That's what got us in this mess in the first place.

True

[blacktail]

speyfly,

I think the others are correct in that your continual name-calling of our President really hurts your credibility.

I think it is important for us as citizens to question the actions of our elected officials, but it truly unpatriotic to bash them.

Mike

Blacktail,
With the exception of Clinton :shocked:

[monoman]

True
I have only one child. He has choosen to go into the Marines. He has been in for two years now. I pray every minute of every day he will come home fine. He is a fine Marine, and will trained. I find every one of the young men that I have met that serve with him to be outstanding Americans, they believe the glass to be half full.
I also find it very funning that you think someone else should do your fighting.
This country was started by men that were willing to stand up and say enough. I hope you lead a fine life tucked away in Hoodriver, and you children grow to be grandparents. I also have the same hope for my child and those like him. There are a lot of children with their lives on the line right now, hoping this world will be better for their children, and not willing to hand down a problem that will cost lives.
God Speed to those that aren't willing to take a pass so their lives will be unchanged.

[ 02-17-2003, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: monoman ]

monoman,
Tell your son thanks from this old cripled non vet. If it wasn't for people like him we would be goose stepping today. :depressed:

[speyfly]

Hey Blacktail, if you vote for someone based on promises made and they don't fulfill those promises, by all means you have the right to bash them.

[HOGTIDE]

oh come on now 'blacktail'....in this thread alone he as only accused the US President of being a "thief", "a liar", "immoral","killer of 25,000 people"," supplier of WMD to kill innocent civilians"....you don't really think he has lost credibility here, do you?

...and he always backs it up with reams and reams of insightful info. from Jane Fonda's Red Shoe Diaries research Foundation.

...what a bitter axe to grind what hours and hours of effort to sharpen it

......250 posts and not an encouraging word

[blacktail]

spey,

For some reason I have a hard time believing you voted for Bush.

Mike

Blacktail,

No doubt! If he said David McReynolds I'd believe it.



[ 02-18-2003, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

[speyfly]

Hey Hog, this remimds me of a line from a movie (A Few Good Men I think) where Jack Nicholson said "You can't handle the truth". :tongue:

[ 02-17-2003, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

[speyfly]

Blacktail, yes I voted for Bush cause I was so disgusted with Clinton for lying. When I found that george was a liar too, that was it. I cannot trust anyone that lies, especially our President. I think that the guy that holds the highest office in the land should be honest at the very least. The first lie that I caught was when he stated that he did not know Ken Lay (Enron)

[ 02-17-2003, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

[blacktail]

Wow, my apologies. I would never have bet that you would've voted for Bush.

I still do believe that no matter who our President is, he should be treated with some respect.

Mike

[Boedy]

Originally posted by speyfly:
Hey Hog, this remimds me of a line from a movie (A Few Good Men I think) where Jack Nicholson said "You can't handle the truth". :tongue:

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I few more wise words from good old Jack you should think about Spey

“Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you dont talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it.

I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!"

[speyfly]

Sorry Boedy, not when it's morally wrong! That is way too high of a price to pay.

Blacktail, respect is earned and not given freely.

[ 02-17-2003, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

[monoman]

Thanks Boegy!
I watch that the other day just to hear that part.

Spey
It seems to me you said you were 51, did you dodge the draft? Did you serve? Did you spend your time protesting and smoking? You sit and search, search for what, the truth? When many show you facts and truth you avoid and call names. What other hate do you "spew"? By the way do you even fish?

[speyfly]

mono, my lottery numbers was 356 so to answer your question I did not serve in our armed forces. My 1-A classification was changed to a 1-H (military hold) and I could have been drafted at any time. I did try to do my part. I turned my home into a halfway house for any returning Veteran that need somewhere to recover. Yes I did protest the war in SE Asia when I found out that my government had lied to all of the draftees that were forced to fight the unjust war.