A NATION AT WAR

[fishonksm]

It is the belief of this American veteran that Gods will well prevail in all matters on this earth. God establishes the kingdoms and governments of this earth and he removes them. We can spend our time being unproductive and reactive or productive and proactive. Let us be productive and proactive in supporting our Nations leaders, Military leaders, Solders, Sailors, Fathers, Mothers, Sons, and Daughters in their endeavor to rid the world of evil.
Stay out of the streets protesting, for what good will the protesting do? But rather fall on your knees and seek Gods face and direction. I would ask you to read Dr. Stanley’s sermon from Sunday the 16th .
We only have the freedoms we enjoy because someone gave their life to defend them. Show your support for the freedoms you enjoy in true peace. A peace that surpasses all understanding a peace that comes from a loving God. Not in an angrily and violent way that only the world knows.

A NATION AT WAR by Dr.Charles Stanley

Ecclesiastes 3:8 states that there is a "time for war and a time for peace." In these times of warfare, we often ask, "How should we respond? What should be our attitude?" We will find biblical answers for these questions when we explore the ultimate issue: What does the Word of God say about warfare?

When a nation goes to war, God’s people need to fully understand their heavenly Father’s viewpoint about this matter. Naturally, God is not excited about war. He does not enjoy bloodshed and vengeance. However, He is dealing with a world of people who have a fallen nature—sinful, wicked and vile. Romans 3:10-11,15-17 describes mankind without God: "…there is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God. . . . Their feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their paths, and the path of peace they have not known."

God battles with people who oppose Him, who fight against Him and His followers. So, even though He hates war, God is not against it. Throughout the Old Testament, there are examples of God using warfare to carry out His plans, to punish the wicked and preserve His people (Deut. 9:4-6; Deut. 20; Jer. 5; Numbers 33:55-56). You may think, "How could God do that?" He says in Isaiah 55:9, "My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts are higher than your thoughts." God has divine reasons for choosing to use war as a vehicle to accomplish His will.

In Scripture, God clearly establishes the government’s responsibilities and authority over us, as well. In Romans 13:1 and 4, Paul writes, "every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. . .for it [the government] is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil."

God ordains the government with the right to promote good and restrain evil. This includes wickedness that exists within the nation, as well as any wicked persons or countries that threaten foreign nations. Obviously, there are times when a country should not go to war; but there are also times when, if a nation does not do so, they suffer the consequences. Therefore, a government has biblical grounds to go to war in the nation’s defense or to liberate others in the world that are enslaved.

You may think, "Well, how do we reconcile that with what Jesus said about loving our enemies and turning the other cheek?" (Luke 6:27-30) In that passage, Jesus was speaking to us as individuals. If someone treats us badly, we should love him anyway. We can pray for our enemies, and do well to those who hate us. The way someone treats an individual is one thing; the way he treats an entire nation is a completely different issue. The Bible teaches that it is the responsibility of the government’s leaders to protect the nation against those who would destroy it.

The Bible also instructs citizens in the proper way to respond when their country goes to war. For example, it is a violation of the Word of God to refuse to defend your country if ordered. Recall Romans 13:1-2: "every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God. . .Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves." According to this verse, we’re to be submissive to the laws of the land. The only reason we have for disobeying the government is if it requires us to behave in a way that clearly violates some specific verse or command of God (Acts 5:27-32).

Someone might say, "But I can’t go to war because shooting the enemy would be murder, and the Bible says ‘you shall not murder’"(Exodus 20:13). Actually, when a man in combat shoots his enemy under the command of the government, without personal hatred, he is not committing murder. Instead, he is simply being obedient to the purpose for which he is fighting. To commit murder, a person must have vengeance and hatred against another. Many men have died on the battlefield without animosity toward anyone--they were fighting for a cause, defending or freeing their land. Therefore, if called, it is a citizen’s national and biblical responsibility to defend his country.

Even if we do not actually participate in the fighting, we are also called to create unity and harmony within the country. We need to support whatever decisions our nation makes, as long as they do not directly violate the Word of God. How can we justify the protests and marches against war? I understand that, in America, for example, we have a right to express our different opinions. However, there comes a time when our personal opinion is not a priority. The only reason we have the freedom to protest in this country is because thousands were willing to die for that liberty in the past.

Instead of resisting, we should offer to serve the war effort in any way possible during this time, especially by encouraging and helping the families of our soldiers. And the most important and powerful thing we can do for our nation is pray. Pray for our President, leaders, military, and even our enemies. God honors the prayers of His children and expects us to support those in authority.

Despite the many different opinions and philosophies about war, the most important consideration is God’s viewpoint. Throughout Scripture there is evidence that God favors war for divine reasons and sometimes uses it to accomplish His will. He has also given governments and their citizens very specific responsibilities in regards to this matter. This is a frightening time for all of the world’s citizens, but it is also a time for God’s people to rise up as a unified body against the global threat of evil and terror. I challenge you, as a child of God, to respond to this conflict as He desires: with an attitude of prayer, submission, and an unwavering dependence upon your heavenly Father.
—Charles F. Stanley

[speyfly]

Sorry there fishonksm, you're very wrong. Man created governments!

[Kilgore]

As a veteran who witnessed much unspeakable carnage in Iraq, I do not support our government's efforts to rush to war. There are times when it's inevitable to go to war to protect peace, but this is not one of those instances. We still have opportunities to disarm Saddam Hussein without shedding more innocent blood. It's so painful to admit that I've killed so many Iraqi soldiers and I often wonder how many orphans and widows I've created in the process. What makes it so regrettable is that they were merely following their leader’s orders or simply doing what’s expected.

We have it a little better in this country, and we need to speak up and try to prevent this pattern of dysfunction to resolve conflicts. It takes more courage to not go to war than to holler threats at the first sign of disagreement. The Rom 13:1-2 reference could also be taken by the Iraqis to support their own government, so we need to view this is a broader perspective instead of from our own myopic angle. I’ve been listening to Charles Stanley for many years, but when he uses the pulpit to advocate war, he really loses all respect or credibility he may have had in the past. We’re called to love our neighbors, not to slaughter them. So, when Charles Stanley supports going to war over seeking peace, as we’re commanded to do, he’s no better than those Islamic radicals calling for Jihad.

And finally, the reason we’re more fortunate than the Iraqis are is the form of government we have. And what makes our system better is the fact that we don’t blindly follow our leaders. So if you really think that you’re being a better citizen by complying with whatever our government tells you to do, you’re being naïve. Unfortunately, the dogmatic fundamentalism seldom lends itself to independent and creative thinking. Speyfly is right…man created governments. So, if fishonksm were living in Iraq, he’d also blindly be following his Muslim cleric preaching to support Saddam.

[The Fishing Geek]

I will not debate religion...I will not debate religion...I will not debate religion...I will not debate religion...I will not debate religion...I will not debate religion...I will not debate religion...I will not debate religion...I will not debate religion...I will not debate religion...I will not debate religion...I will not debate religion...I will not debate religion...I will not debate religion...

[ultralight]

Didn't your mom tell you to write it 100 times, without cut 'n paste?

[ 02-16-2003, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: ultralight ]

[Joe Schwab]

Amen Geek, Amen!!!!

Geek (the spelling/grammer **** ),
Polertiks is bad e nuf :smile:

[happybrew]

Originally posted by Kilgore:
As a veteran who witnessed much unspeakable carnage in Iraq, I do not support our government's efforts to rush to war. There are times when it's inevitable to go to war to protect peace, but this is not one of those instances. We still have opportunities to disarm Saddam Hussein without shedding more innocent blood. It's so painful to admit that I've killed so many Iraqi soldiers and I often wonder how many orphans and widows I've created in the process. What makes it so regrettable is that they were merely following their leader?s orders or simply doing what?s expected.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Very well said Kilgore! I don't think you should feel bad about what you did, though. That war was just. You should remember that you freed a country, and that was your goal, not creating orphans. In that you did well. It's not your fault Sadaam Hussein started events that ended up with you having to do a nasty job for the good of Kuwait. If we had taken him out, we wouldn't be facing this issue today. He's a horrible man, and you did your part to undo some of what he did.

happybrew

[Kilgore]

Originally posted by happybrew:
Very well said Kilgore! I don't think you should feel bad about what you did, though. That war was just. You should remember that you freed a country, and that was your goal, not creating orphans. In that you did well. It's not your fault Sadaam Hussein started events that ended up with you having to do a nasty job for the good of Kuwait. If we had taken him out, we wouldn't be facing this issue today. He's a horrible man, and you did your part to undo some of what he did.

happybrew

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">It's easy for you to say don't feel bad, because you didn't see the people get blown up by the shots you fired and watched it in your scope. We ambushed these guys and they didn't even have a chance. The war itself is unjust. Once the motion is set to go to war, there are no logic or reason to what happens during the war. It's so ironic that people who advocate going to war are people who haven't even been to a battle, let alone suffered the pain and trauma of having killed another human being. :depressed:

It's so selfish to judge everything from our vantage point, and not value others' lives and concerns as much as ours. It's all about us! No wonder so many people around the world don't like us!

[ 02-17-2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Kilgore ]

[True]

Kilgore, I am sad for you. Taking a life is hard. Especially when it is for at "just" cause. I don't envy anyone that does this.

Let us at least be content with the fact that you returned to us a wiser human being.

Fishonksm, God didn't create war. Satan created war to break the Gates of Heaven. Man foolishly gives God credit for this. Such is not His will. God did not write the words that were written in the Bible...men did that. Any God that would justify war is no God of mine.

True

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by ultralight:
Didn't your mom tell you to write it 100 times, without cut 'n paste?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">What? I didn't cut and paste! If I cut and paste then it'd only be there once. That's a copy and paste, my friend!

[Fishrite]

fishonksm:
Thanks for the post, you are right on. God does establish governments, and thank God we have a man of integrity in the White House now, when these times demand so mush. I'm grateful that we now have a president that prays that God will guide him everyday. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] Fishrite

[ultralight]

Originally posted by The Fishing Geek:
What? I didn't cut and paste! If I cut and paste then it'd only be there once. That's a copy and paste, my friend!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Hmm, I don't remember making a friend with someone who look like you...

[ 02-18-2003, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: ultralight ]

[Trophy]

Originally posted by Kilgore:

It's so selfish to judge everything from our vantage point, and not value others' lives and concerns as much as ours. It's all about us! No wonder so many people around the world don't like us!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">That's exactly right!

And I'm afraid it'll get much worse after the war, further destabilizing the world. I don’t feel comfortable or safe to go abroad now and I assume that things will be much more hostile if there is a war. Going to war is an easy way out for Bush. He doesn’t want to work hard at building coalition like his father did, but his father did have pretty extensive diplomatic experience to lean on when he became president.

[fishonksm]

Kilgore, Having to fight in any war is not a pretty or a healthy place to be, but having to do battle is some times a necessary thing. My war, Vietnam, surely was different than yours and wont be the same for some one else. In Dr. Stanley’s sermon he no ware advocates or supports war. He is only showing where war has come from and its necessary support to the leaders of the government and the military, but not blindly. Yes, we are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves and show them the love that Christ showed the world when he came and died and was resurrected for the sin of ALL. But when your neighbors become evil, wicked and vial, as Hitler did, they must be dealt with even to war.
From the book of Joshua thru out the Old Testament, wars have been necessary to rid the world of evil and sin. As it was then, is now, and will be till the end of time. For the world will be destroyed in the last grate battle of Armageddon.
We have the freedoms we have in this country only because our founding fathers saw fit to include them in the bill of rights, which included the freedom to worship a true and living God without persecution and not be subject to the beliefs of its rulers. That’s the only reason this country is better off.
If you have listened to Dr. Stanley as you say you have. You must have some insight into biblical truths and know that the Muslims follow a false religion. A chunk of rock called Allah that requires your death in following it. I however, serve and worship a living God who only wants my faithfulness and love in return and to trust in him alone.

And to Geek I don’t debate religion or religions either. I stand on Gods word and let my life speak for itself. God said it in his word, I believe it and that’s all I need to know.