Am I out of tune with patriotism?

[RvW]

Heres a recent email I got...

Comments welcomed!

All I have to say is, when will they do something about MY RIGHTS? I celebrate Christmas, but because it isn't celebrated by everyone, we can no longer say Merry Christmas. Now it has to be Season's Greetings. It's not Christmas vacation, it's Winter Break. Isn't it amazing how this winter break ALWAYS occurs over the Christmas holiday?? We've gone so far the other way, bent over backwards to not offend anyone, that I am now being offended. But it seems that no one has a problem with that.


This says it all!


After hearing that the state of Florida changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face covered this is an editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa newspaper. He did quite a job; didn't he? Read on, please!

>IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!

"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every! citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

[ 02-12-2003, 10:50 PM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

[1pump]

When in Rome............

This reminds me of something I read in The Oregonian........it was the "Bill of Non-rights".

One of the non-rights was "you do not have the right to never be offended".

[Just_learning]

This is Jason, Just_learning's roomate...

This editorial is a pitiful echo of the cries of a generation that fears its own imminent political demise. It represents only the ignorant fears of the writer, and has nothing to do with actual fact or history.

"we have experienced a surge of patriotism" and "a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and national identity"
So you applaud those who threw the little flag stickers on their cars in support of American political and economic exploitation of the Middle East? Wonderful. Would mine be more patriotic if it read: I don't care that for the last fifty years we have supported oppressive regimes, changed alliances as they suited our interests, and ruthlessly exerted all the control we could muster over the oil reserves.. they attacked us.. where's my M16? We have given the people of the Middle East(among other countries, namely latin America) plenty of reasons to go to war with us. But they can't. Many of their leaders are currently under long term lease to our interests. So a politically unrepresented group(quite possibly reflecting the sentiments of the majority) took direct action. As Americans, we chose to ignore the causes of this political act, and instead focus on the simple act of revenge. Let's not take responsability for the decades of exploitation and oppression that makes intelligent, educated men want to KILL THEMSELVES to punish us.
Now how about our response? We did just what a good planner would have wanted. We turned on an economically backward country that was a former ally. At once we demonstrated our lack of principle in attacking a country that merely 20 years before we trained and equipped, and we did nothing to the ability of the region to economically sustain terrorist acts. Evidently a very large percentage of the money that goes to terrorists comes from Iran.. but they are our allies.
And take this as you may, but all this idea of patriotism and identity is merely a sociopolitical construction. It never existed before the mid 1700s. It was only when the advantage of professional standing armies was demonstrated that Kings felt the need to find loyal and skilled soldiers instead of conscripted misfits. They did this by creating the idea of nationalism through propaganda. Congratulations, you are a useful sacrifice for someone elses political power.
"we speak ENGLISH"
Well, I would hate to bring up the fact that multicultural education has proven to be harmful to the students who are subject to it. Great that a kid can understand a little better in the classroom and then goes out into the real world and cannot communicate as well with employers or clients. Maybe if this was known, the writer would switch his support, since it would keep the minorities in the lower classes where they belong.
"In God we trust" and "Christian men and women"
Avoiding completely the fact that the founding fathers were primarily Deist, and not ideally Christian as the writer so neatly assumes, there was no room at all for atheists at the time. So over the centuries before all atheists were murdered, ostracized, or completely marginalized and this allowed for Christian leaders exclusively to be the founding fathers. Now over the course of the last few hundred years more secular beliefs have invaded the theocracy and it has evolved. But lets not worry about that, this is not logic or any kind of dialectical analysis. It is merely citing history as a superior template because it is old. Hey, the founding fathers also felt that black people were less human because God made them black. Is the writers next pulitzer bid going to be an appeal for the return to slavery?
As for the last paragraph, what is there to say, it is not even dignified enough to be based on misinformation. It is merely a get out of my yard sermon. Unfortunately it is not the writers yard, and the "logic" can be applied both ways. But I will opt not to stand back and tell anyone to get out of "my" liberal country.
So we can return to the very beginning, which was the complain that a "politically correct" lobby has somehow managed to replace Christmas with Winter break and Season's Greetings. Except last time I went to the store or drove through town, I saw both ideas displayed all over. I also saw Santa Claus, which is a white European icon, and I saw the yards of private citizens decorated with nativity scenes and various religious icons.
So where are your rights really infringed? How much grief is changing a name to be more secular when compared to the fact that predominantly minority schools are far below predominantly white schools in achievement rates? We honor minorities by changing the name of a holiday and graduating them into an economy where they have virtually no chance to compete for living wage employment. Yeah, they are really taking over the country. Maybe with the new school cuts they will make even more progress as poor minority neighborhoods raise private funds to allow for acceptable school conditions and nice middle class neighborhood schools suffer from lack of books and technology.

[Thumper]

Easy there Jason. Deep breaths. Take a nap.

[Straydog]

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Thank your God very few real leaders have actually believed or lived by this arrogant thought.

Thank your God we stopped the Genocide of Native Americans due to a cultural shift. (and the fact we wiped most of them out.........)

Thank your God we abolished slavery and the horrors brought on millions of Africans due to a cultural shift and changing values.

Thank your God we have made advances toward wiping out prejudices towards African Americans and others that were not born white due to cultural shifts. (we still have a long way to go.......)

Thank your God that our culture and values are, in reality, changing daily and the boorish propoganda written in the email posted is just that, boorish propoganda worth little more than a catalyst for starting internet forum discussions and an example of how far from reality many right wing propoganda spewing people are!

To Jason,

You make me happy my daughter is going to OSU with thinking people such as yourself.

[ 02-13-2003, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Straydog]

Thumper,

Skanky, skanky, skanky!!



[ 02-13-2003, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[montster303]

to jason's roomate....sounds like you would be better off living in Eugene than Corvallis...

[Silver Hilton]

I certainly agree with the thought that one does not have the right to not be offended. Sensitivity has been overdone.

The article overlooks, perhaps, the part of our history where many have come here to avoid religious and other persecution, in order to have the right to freely express themselves, and worship, or not, as they choose. That's maybe the most fundamental freedom that we have.

As to the right to leave if you don't agree, seems to me that we hear that a lot when the Republicans are riding on the high side. I don't hear it when the democrats are in the majority. Then, we just hear a lot of complaining. If that thought is valid, then a lot of people should have been packing their pickups and traveling in the years 1992-2000.

Not picking sides, just observing that sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.

The essense of the article seems to be, "You better love our country, dammit! And by the way, the only way to love the country is the way I do it." That seems a bit narrowminded.

[ 02-13-2003, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Silver Hilton ]

[Thumper]

Straydog --- Now that was funny!!!

[Straydog]

Thumper,

We gotta try to keep our sense of humor, even when disagreeing. :grin:

Thanks for the reply.....

[monoman]

Jason
Youth is a wonderful time. I am glad you have passion. I would like to hear your point of veiw in ten years and than in 20 years.
With all the resources you have to gain knowledge, use them on a couple more subjects. Start with the wars in the pacific, wwII and korea. Look up a couple of spots on the map, do you see any USA flags flying on those islands and countries, how many graves of young men like yourself do you see? Do you think you can put the murder car bombers or hijackers into the same boat? What of the men that are standing watch for you right now?
It's easy to quote history and say what we did wrong,or pin the flag on your car and pretend everything is right. Tell me Jason what should we do? I know several people who have flags on their cars that were pows, do you mock these men, are they just to simple for you to understand?
Tell me what the USA should do Jason? Hide our heads in the sand, pull out of everywhere, please tell me how your children will grow up with out having to worry about car bombs?
I don't think your wrong on all points, but you have had your rant, now tell those of us who wave the flag and are proud to be, how your going to fix what you think is wrong?

[GutZ]

Jason;
You seem to have a lot of sympathy for the Taliban and Al- Queda. As an American that would be pretty shameful.

Freeing Afganistan from the Taliban was not an act of vengence. It was an act of compasion. It also made the world a safer, better place.

[lost_sailor]

I've always thought it was patriotic to speak out against things I think are wrong.

I still say "Merry Christmas," by the way. Not to Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist friends - "Happy Holidays" seems more appropriate.

[True]

If that is what "Patriotism" is then I'm out of the picture. I'm sure the ***** had a word for Patriotism. Soon after people got hurt, or worse.

If immigrants are the only ones to adapt then "Americans," as CoTR's author claims, may be the first to go the way of the Dodo and Dinosaur. After these "Americans" are absorbed into the "new" mainstream we won't have to worry about these "adapt or leave" wackoes any longer. Hispanics (Latinos) will become the dominant population very, very soon. It's kind of Karmic knowing that a lot of the current U.S. was Native American land in the first place. What will happen then? More persecution? More concentration camps?

On a side note I was horrified to see that Rumsfeld stated that the U.S. had not used a nuclear weapon to end a war in over 50 years. Maybe he should have gone back another 10 to help jog his memory...Poof! Big flash of light. A whole lot of heat. Hurricane force winds and then just nothing...not even crying babies.

Does that only count as terrorizing and not terrorism? One apparently, is acceptable. The other is not.

True

[Straydog]

Mono,

Please give me an example of my leftist views.

I have spoken out against what I perceive to be far right views as expressed in the email above. I should have used the term "far" right in my original post.

While I have pointed out examples of how our culture and values have changed in reference to the part of the message I quoted, I am lost as to what 'leftist' views I have submitted.

I was not using those examples to illustrate the evils of our country whose flag I stand behind as well. I was using those examples to illustrate how the "we don't care what you think like it or get out" mentality of the email are counter to our historical values. We do and are changing.

Now, where is the pink???

COTR,

I was reacting to the email, not you.

[ 02-13-2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Straydog]

Sorry 'bout that..... :grin:

[ 02-13-2003, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Dog,
You know that you're a closet pinko just like you know that I lean a bit to the right :grin:

[monoman]

Dog
You have not gone so left to becalled pink!
You were grouped with the young man who rebutted Cirr. It was that last sentence..it was the spew word.....it's ok....I still will get pink going!
The kid was in the Phillippines at the US embassy a couple of weeks ago, they had some trouble and needed to call in the boys!
I'll be in your neck of the woods next week or so, lunch on me.

[Silver Hilton]

Originally posted by Keta:
just like you know that I lean a bit to the right

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">No, Keta, SAY IT ISN'T SO!!! :grin:

:grin:

[RvW]

Stray, I assume you were speaking in a reaction to the authors words, and not what you considered my own?

The article is extreme, to a point where I have to wonder about the authors lifestyle...racist?

My question "am I out of tune with patriotism" was sarcasm. What I was saying is this: If I dont agree with the words and ideas in the article, am I not a true patriotic american?...

See where I am coming from?

Before someone assumes how I feel, I must make it clear that my views on racism itself are quite extreme. If I am guilty of hate, it is a hatred for intollerance and prejudice. But I sometimes feel as though I am part of the only race and nationality who could commit the crime of racial prejudice, or at least the idea that being a white american male, I can be considered very suspect to it due to the many who agree with the above post, and this makes me uncomfortable.

However, I have to agree with at least the sentiment in the article. It seems the compromises made to the "American way" have gone to an extreme and I am encouraged to ask myself how far America will go to accomidate those who seek the freedoms which were born by specific theories and principals.

I guess freedom is the key word, and if I expect to have it, I must make it available to all right?

This seems like a trivial cliche, but I must remind those who strongly support the above article That you are most likely a product of another country yoursleves. Me? My Grandfather was from Italy, barely spoke english when he Volunteered for the army, and faught for America in WW2. My grandmother: Norwiegan, they met on a boat bound for the US.
My Mothers parents? French, her father also faught in WW2. So I guess the question is...whats the waiting period for true citizenship, have the bloodlines been diluted enough so I may call myself an american yet?

If the people coming to america are seeking freedom, thats exactly what they should get, no more and no less. I guess this is the only sure way to have my own protected when it is threatened.

I tried to become a permanent citizen of Canada after I married a Canadian woman.

A few of the ways I could have accomplished this were:

Am I bringing a business here, can I put people to work?

Do I have enough money to support myself, and the skills to continue doing so?

Do I have enough money to leave if I am rejected?

My wife had to sign a statement that she would be financially responsible for me. If I were to get hurt, she would pay the medical bills. If I were to become unable to work, she would support me. If I were to be arrested and incarcerated, she would pay for any damages, civil judgements, medical and psychiatric expenses of both myself and any victims.

She also had to prove that she was capable of doing these things.

Honestly, I think the US should adapt these same standards to a degree and though it sounds unfair, why should I, as an american, have to pay for those who come here unable to pay for themselves? There were no food stamps back when my grandparents immigrated to the US, there were no rental assistance programs, no social services that people had an option to use indefinitely.

I'm sure there was a whole different outlook on the promise of "coming to america" back then...you were offered the OPPORTUNITY TO WORK HARD for the freedom you sought, and they accepted this challenge and succeeded!

Today, I think the idea behind coming to america is the fact that someone else will pay your way if you dont.

My grandparents came here to be a part of the land of the free.

Too many people are coming here thinking "free" has a completely different meaning.

I dont care what language you speak, which god you pray too or how many wives you have. I dont care what Christmas day means to you, or the fact that you dont care to celebrate the fourth of July (pyrotechnics day?)
The only thing I ask of those who wish to come to this country is that they make a contribution to freedom, and the betterment of the american people by being one, and being proud of it by taking full advantage of the opportunity to pay your own way!

[monoman]

Dog
How come it's "spew" when it comes from the right and reality when comes for your left? I have long held to the belief, the left thinks the right are stupid, not just different but stupid. You can hear this in post time and time again around here. You may be right about your post on just how bad some of the thing we as a nation have done. Look around and tell me everything we have done for 200 years is just that bad. Now come up with a nation that has been more humane. I stand by my flag and I do it because I know how we got here! Are we perfect, no, but ask some french guy who's about 70, I bit he thinks we are alright.

[Straydog]

Mono,

Well, I guess I listen to too much conservative talk radio on the road. Unfortunately, 'spew' is the word that best describes the delivery of those guys and I read that same attitude in the words of the email posted.

My primary message to Jason was that I think it is refreshing to see people, especially young people giving things thought. Neither side should just blindly follow the spew of the other side yet too many do. Too many people of any age just accept what they are told or hear on the radio or read in some rag. They forget that the purpose of talk radio and newspapers is to sell, not inform so much as sell. It is with this in mind that we need to think about and question these things as Jason has.

Glad I didn't overstep the bounds of Pink-dom!!! That was a close one........... :grin:
When are you coming through? All my guys are headed south to some dumb buying group show. I suppose you are as well, turncoat!..... :tongue: :grin:

I will be anxious to hear some stories from your son. What an experience!


Keta,

The difference is, I try to moderate my pinkdom, but you, you just keep pushing to the right!!! :grin:

Have a pinky Valentines day!!!

[ 02-14-2003, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

U2 Dog

[monoman]

Dog
We are spring guys, no fall stuff! No shows for me at the buying groups! I did not even have to go to Otown!
All young people should question us. I just find it my duty to remind them they are puppies still!