Teachers, good luck in California!!

[TheRogue]

California Teacher Recruiting

Yes, we here in Oregon have failed to keep up. California, YES, CALIFORNIA is looking for every teacher willing to give up a life of uncertainty here in Oregon, to head south to a state where education is PRIORITY #1.

To you teachers who go, I say, good luck, and thank you for the time you spent here, busting your butts for our kids, and I hope you consider coming back when we Oregonians figure out our priorities.

And for those teachers who stay, I say THANK YOU for staying, putting up with the politics and the uncertainty, staying committed to your career, your students, and the state you live in....even though the state has proven it's not committed to you.

TR

[Sea Nymph]

To the ones that leave here for greener pastures in Cal. I say outta the pan into the fire.

When Gray David took over as Governor of Cal. there was a deficit surplus. Since that time, he has managed to create chaos in all sorts of ways. The power management to name one. Since David took over, the state of Cal. now has a deficit greater than all other 49 states put together!

Cal. made it illegal to home school your kids unless you are a certified teacher. Even though the children before the law passed were consistantly scoring higher on tests than publically schooled kids.

http://www.recallgraydavis.com/
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=30987

[True]

TheRogue,

Thanks! Seeing that we are appreciated out there takes a little bit of the sting out of the budget crisis. People will learn, hopefully sooner as opposed to later. I don't think that it will be anytime in the near future though. Maybe in 2004?

True

[TheRogue]

Sea Nymph...

California has voter-approved dedicated school funding. Oregon does not.

California has voter-approved maximum class sizes. Oregon does not.

California has made a commitment. Oregon has not.

I don't like most of Kalifornia, but this is the one thing I agree completely with. No brainer...education Priority #1, for Kindergarten through College and beyond....everything else falls into place.

TR

[Straydog]

True,

"Thank you" from another that knows and appreciates what you folks do.

I have maintained my entire adult life that teachers and nurses are the most underappreciated and under paid members of our society.

Again, thank you!
[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[Cool Texan]

I agree on underappreciated....but cant comment on the under-paid part. No idea what a teacher makes. I have a friend who teaches school in Texas, and she used to complain about being underpaid. Then we factored in the money she could make if she taught summer school, and also looked at it if we annualized her "partial year" salary, and both concluded she wasnt that bad off...lower wages, but she also travelled for 3 months every summer, so she had no complaints.

Who knows. But yes, in Oregon, certainly underappreciated.

[Thumper]

If you take the actual hours that teachers work and divide those hours into what they make, then add the fringes, the conclusion that they are underpaid is not valid. The numbers that I have seen indicate that they are very well paid indeed.

I don't go for teacher bashing and they run from excellent to tenured trash. The starting pay isn't good but after a few years it gets better. What I have a problem with is the protection that the "Tenured Trash" have. And the imperial attitude of the administration.
There is still too much waste and coruption in the school system.

[Straydog]

Of the teachers I know, if you took the hours worked by the majority (not all, granted) and divided that into their salaries, it would be embarrasing, to say the least.

I am not talking about published "school in session" hours, I am talking about actual hours worked; before school, after school, on weekends and in the summer.

Obviously it varies from school to school and teacher to teacher, as in any profession.

Keta,

In my opinion, as wrong as it is for administraters to have imperialistc attitudes, it only happens because the majority of parents are lazy and allow it to happen. (emphathis on majority)

[True]

Thumper,

I would love to see what those numbers look like. Do they also factor in the fact that most teachers put in an extra two hours or so a night to grade and record? Does it also factor in the unpaid time during lunch and after school that they put in to supervise athletics or other school activities? How about the home visits and taking kids and their parents to appointments when they need to get there.

And fringes? What fringes? Many teachers are taking a cut in pay. Is that a fringe?

I could still work as a lawyer or be a doctor, but then again, they make too much money too, huh? Better to be a teacher, although I am grateful for doctors, and some lawyers...

Maybe bounty-hunting... yeah, that's it!

True

[Cool Texan]

The extra two hours a night?? Probably not. Then again, I cant charge my boss extra either. Its called a salary. Then again, if I cut out 2 hours early, its all good. Paycheck is the same.

[FallRiverGuy]

Cool Texan wrote:

The extra two hours a night?? Probably not.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Wife is an elementary teacher and she worked until 6 last night. When we got home she worked another hour. This is not the case every day, but it is not uncommon either. She has been trying to cut back on working weekends. Other teachers I know work similar hours. There is not time during the day to take care of the busy work.


Thumper wrote:

But on the basis of 20 days a month (on average) times 9 months times 8 hours a day that would be 1,440 hours a year, which is only 69% of a full-time job (which is 2,080 hours a year).

$44,000 divided by 1,440 equals $30.56 per hour.

and

And of course the entire summer is one 3-month vacation.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I can tell you my wife's salary is not close to that based on her contract days. Include in the extra days and hours and it drops even more. Add in the school suplies she buys because there is no money in the budget, the breakfast food she supplies kids who's parents send them to school hungry, and the other out of pocket money she spends at school and it drops even more.

Her summer is not 3 months either. Holidays spread the 180 days out so they are not consecutive weeks. Most teachers spend a good week after school is over getting their room in order (post contract days), even more so since custodial staff is being cut again. In the fall many go in days early(precontact days) to prepare for the coming year. Add all this togeather and it is not a 3 month vacation.


I bring these things up because there seems to be a general idea that being a teacher is a cake walk with great pay and very little effort. Teachers work very hard. That is not to say that others don't work hard, only that it should be acknowleged that they do too. Parents that come and volunter in my wife's classroom often, very often comment that they don't know how teachers do their job day in and day out. I have worked part time in a school and think that it was the hardest job I have ever had. It takes a special person to have the energy and dedication it takes to be a teacher.

[ 02-13-2003, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: FallRiverGuy ]

[roadsend]

Keta & Thumper
Tenure was done away with in Oregon several years ago.
I retired from both teaching and military law enforcement some years ago.
My son has a degree in science education and is well established in his law enforcement career in a nearby state.
I thank God he is not a teacher and that he is in a career where his work is valued and appreciated.


Roadsend

[True]

Thumper,

Our current contract is 192 days a year including inservice days. Did you also figure out how much we have paid to get our education as well as time spent in classes during the Summers to keep our licenses? On top of that I have to go to conferences on Saturdays (some Sundays) throughout the year. What does a five year education cost now? Is it worth it to come out of the university system and make $26,000 - $29,000 a year for the first few years?

I could do the minimum, sure. But then, what would your kids be learning about doing the least amount of work possible and the pay off?

I will agree with you that there are a few outdated teachers in the system and hopefully they will be weeded out but for the most part we give at least 100% at what we do.

Monoman,

if you don't want to have teachers tell you about how hard they work then get the word out that teachers can't take over the parent's role in educating their children. Education starts in the home first. Agreed?

To those that appreciate us, thank you. We appreciate you right back.

True

True,
Same with engineers, so what. Do you expect to be payed top dolar right out of school? Go back to school and get your masters and go into Admin. Then you can make the big bucks, get new office furniture every other year, get kickbacks from contracts and have your staff do all of your work.
PS: You're right about having to deal with lack of parenting :depressed:

Dog,
When asked about the coruption in the school management the School Sup ignores you. We can't get enough parents or voters together to do what you did in GP.

[ 02-13-2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Thumper]

True:

Thanks for the clarification. Using your 192 days (1,536 hours), that is 74% of a full time job. The hourly rate, including fringe benefits, would then fall to $38.67 per hour.

Betcha a bunch of Ifishers wouldn't mind that job!

My point is not to decry the money made by teachers. They likely earn it. But in fact they are treated very well by their employers (us).

[Red-Rooster]

Thumper-
I think you are still missing the point. You can try and add up the hours and divide it by the total, but you still have not figured in the amount of work that teaching requires "off of the clock". Teachers are always putting in extra time and working without compensation. How would you like to chaparone a dance on friday night, then wake up the next morning to help with a wrestling tournament. That is a small example of how teachers are asked to invest in your children. If teachers were not willing to help with these types of activities, than the students would suffer - can you put a price tag on that.
What is of bigger concern though is how there are so many parents that don't seem to have a clue on how to raise their own children - yet feel that it is their role to tell the school how to raise the children. For teachers to put up with that, justifies how much they are paid.

I am just thankful that we have teachers who are willing to put up with the demands and those that believe that thier job is easy!!!

To all of our teachers - [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[monoman]

OK here I go jumping to save Thumper...yeh really!
Red-rooster/True
It takes a village and you know best! To say you know how to raise someone child better than they is how we get people to vote no on everything that schools want and need. Schools are to teach, not raise, not mold and so on. Yes you have to babysit and deal with stuff that is not teaching, so what they are kids! Parents are a pain, they should be, they give you their child for 6 hours a day. If they would not let you teach their child you would be with out job. It's not for the school to judge these people. Hours spent, I know of few people who do not put in extra time. If you want the title you put in the time. We eat dinner at about 8:30 in this house, get up at 5:30, never have I said I work to much(Ok this time of year maybe)
If teachers want more money fine, let them teach summer school or take class during summer, everyone of them, not just a few. Let's make this a full year job with three weeks off, give them five weeks. You want 70k to 90k a year I'm for it! Adjust the other bennies and raise your pay and I'll sign off! I'll even help you get it!

[Thumper]

A little twist of the tables here.........

Teachers seem to want to justify their higher hourly pay by claiming that they work many, many long hours outside of the class day. I believe them, and we all appreciate those hours.

But I would maintain that this is typical of most salaried people. That's what briefcases are for. In my case that includes flying about 200,000 miles a year as well, all of it "uncompensated". Perhaps teachers don't realize how hard the rest of the world works.

Any way you cut it financially, teachers do pretty well when compared with other salaried employees having similar training and years of experience.

And they get to fish all summer. Now THAT bugs me....... :grin:

[True]

Monoman,

As far as teachers spending 6 hours a day with the kids and not being able to raise them? Hey! That's more time than some parents see their kids all day. Do you just consider us well paid baby-sitters?

If they didn't want us to teach their children we wouldn't be out of jobs. They would just take their kids to a private school...and pay much more. If you've got the money, I say, "Go for it!" There are more than half of our classes that have 30 or more students (not including P.E.). Is that too few for you?

Thumper,

Your comment of: "Perhaps teachers don't realize how hard the rest of the world works."
doesnt' really jive. Personally I've worked many places: as a fruit-picker, a recycler, boxboy, cashier, Domino's Pizza MIT, Short-order cook, Chef, custodian, and now as a teacher. I'm sure my brother and sister teachers out there have done pretty much the same.

When you said, "...teachers do pretty well when compared with other salaried employees having similar training and years of experience." You should look and see what engineers, business owners, bank-managers, and others that have a five year degree earn.

I guess I'm a little taken back when people out there don't really spend any time in our schools to volunteer and see the work that is really going on.

As far as the Summers go...well, I can't help that. It comes with the job! :grin: :grin: :grin:

True,
Don't you have to go back to school some summers too?
Do you have a "Smart" program at your school?

[True]

I go back to school every Summer. There is always something to learn and good teachers never stop learning.

We don't have an active SMART program, to my recollection.

Why? What are you up to now, Keta?

True

[ 02-13-2003, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: True ]

:grin:
Wife worked for Smart and was the head of the site council for the grade school down the road.

[monoman]

True
Do you have kids?
You name many jobs, yet not one of them, I'll bet, did you have to bring home a breifcase. So, please don't talk as if you have had a job that you work 50 hours a week and 20 at home, until teaching. My kid went to public school k through 12, we spent many hours in those schools, many people can't spend hours in school because they are working those hours we talked about.
If those kids were not there you would not have a job....no kids, no teachers! The people in your distract work hard for the dollars they pay in taxes, for you to think they don't care what you do with that money is out right wrong. They care, some are just too tired to tell you, because they work all those hours to pay taxes so you can eat!

[HOGTIDE]

As I say whenever I post about professional matters....my pay is just fine. I'll never get rich , I don't think I'll go broke. never have complained about my income.

New teachers are underpaid. Masters degree required, professional responsibilities exceptional, overtime unpaid hours unbelievable, expectation to donate time and energy to extra-curricular activities is a given. Take home checks that I have seen would not be enough for a family to survive. Luckily most of the rookies are single.

As far as an example of extra hours invested in the job...my wife is an elementary teacher; each night she stays from 1.5 to 2 hours late preparing her classroom and lessons for the following day. Upon arriving home, she eats, takes a shower and then corrects papers from about 7:30 til 11:00. Usually at least one day of the weekend is spent with the stack of papers, also.

I have worked in the private sector in managment positions. I have worked long hours there and have been paid well. But my rigorous schedule was 'nothing' compared to the expectations put upon me as an educator.

Sure, there are a few slackers; the private sector is riddled with them. I know that everyone thinks 'they' work the hardest. But as far as teachers go....you are a getting a double bang for your buck. A good chunk of our schools extra curricular activities and sports programs would literally shut down, if not for teacher volunteers running them. And presently our wages have gone backwards.

As I said, we never planned on being rich, but in the same light, we are not a charitable organization.

The least YOU can do is to say thankyou.

[True]

Ah! So then we can say that it's like a pity tax so that I can put food on the table for my family? If kids weren't in school, where would they be? Where would I be?

Monoman, I stated the earlier jobs to let you know that I (as well as many of us) have worked hard previously to the teaching profession. Just because a person brings home a briefcase doesn't necessarily mean that they work hard - teachers or otherwise. I do appreciate what educated voters have given to us. Unfortunately with the recent problems we've had (lack of proper funding, the nation's attention diverted elsewhere, etc.) we won't see our children getting the proper education that they deserve. There is waste. I will admit that. We are working at budgeting and accountability. The taxpayers deserve that.

Still we could teach kids how to toss a grenade or fire a weapon so they'd be able to make a career in the military (South Central L.A. kids already have those skills). Plenty of money there, isn't there? Perhaps they could become defense contractors, or better yet, offense contractors. Someone's going to buy those bullets and missles.

Can I help it if they are cutting days from the school calendar? I know...sure, True. You can just take a cut in pay like everyone else but upper management. I think not...

By the way, Hogtide...muchísimas gracias.

True

[ 02-13-2003, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: True ]

[monoman]

I say thankyou everytime I pay my taxes and vote for more school money. I've seen great teachers and I have said thank you. I'm all for paying teachers more, but I am tired of hearing about the hurt you have for time.
True
I am taking offense at your comment on the military! My son stands on the wall for you with those gernades, you want to thank someone who is under paid thank him.

[1pump]

Keta, I thought the tenure sysytem was history :whazzup: It is in Portland, anyway.

[Thumper]

True:

First off, all of us who work for a salary face the likelihood of working at night and on weekends. We don't get paid extra. I have to assume that teachers are in a similar situation. No big deal there.

I am told that the average tenured teacher in Oregon gets paid about $44,000 annually. I don't know if that is correct or not, but the lady in my life is a tenured teacher and agrees with that. Perhaps some teachers on the board can clarify that amount.

I am also told that teachers work a nine-month schedule, although that is probably too high an estimate when you figure in the winter holidays, spring break, etc. That would be 180 days a year, which I suspect is too high.

But on the basis of 20 days a month (on average) times 9 months times 8 hours a day that would be 1,440 hours a year, which is only 69% of a full-time job (which is 2,080 hours a year).

$44,000 divided by 1,440 equals $30.56 per hour.

That is of course without fringes. I am told that fringes for teachers average about 35% of pay, due in part to the very high PERS component. That brings total compensation to about $41.26 per hour.

And of course the entire summer is one 3-month vacation.

On that basis I believe it is quite fair to say that teachers are "very well paid". Indeed they are.

[monoman]

I do not hate teachers, I find them to be as good as employees as you can find on a whole. Here's the but! I do not want too hear one more teacher tell me how hard they work and how much harder their job is than mine! We own two businesses in our family and I will bet any teacher we put in more hours than they do, any teacher!
Teaching is a tough job, I vote for them every chance I get, they may even be under paid, but they are not anymore over worked than any other hard working tax paying person that supports them.

[Straydog]

One very, very important element missing from this discussion in my view.

When we bring our briefcases home or go about our daily routine, about the worst we can do is screw up someones business.

Yet, we are asking our teachers to take our very most valuable resource and teach and nurture them for more hours than we are able to give them in a day.

I can think of no job that is more important to our futures other than the job of parenting, which by the way, many people should be fired from...

I think the people with whom we entrust our kids should be the very best available and should be paid as such.

[ 02-14-2003, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[True]

Monoman,

I pay my taxes to pay for your son standing on that wall with that grenade in his hand, isn't that thank you enough?

True

The military is under payed.

[Straydog]

Yea, and they are underpaid too!! :grin:
Libe...... Moderate Republican spelling police Dog

[ 02-14-2003, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Lured In]

First let me say thank you to all the teachers that read this. You work hard, like most and are paid for what you do. Many people (not just teachers) choose to work jobs that pay less than what they can make elsewhere, simply because of their love for teaching and/or concern about education.

Given that I am a product of several school systems across the nation (including two in California); I can say that California has far and away the best academic programs available. They are not without their problems and some districts are better than others.

When I came out of high school, I had learned more than most and much of my first year of college was a repeat. Fortunately for me, I was in the best district in San Diego.

If you know of people who are thinking of going to California to teach, remind them that yes their commitment may be higher, but so is the cost of living. Property taxes, income tax, sales tax and very ex*****ve housing in most cities. Your $200,000 house here will be around $400,000 down there. :shocked:

I am not saying don't go, just keep in mind the grass is not always greener.

Good luck.

Dog (the spelling **** :shocked: ).
D'oh

[GutshotApe]

When I was in the USN and in the Gulf of Tonkin we worked (stood watch in the ship's control center) 93 hrs/week one week, 89 hrs/week the next, alternating while at sea for 5 to 6 weeks at a time. No days off. Nobody on my ship got killed but we were shot at and other ships nearby were hit with sailors killed and maimed. I calculated my pay was less than 20 cents/hour, including sea pay and combat zone pay. And, when I got out and came home, many people considered me and all my shipmates to be low-grade war criminals. Talk about no appreciation for doing an important and necessary job.

I dropped out of college half way thru and worked for a year as a forest tech for Weyco. Made decent wages, same as a sawmill worker, but had to spend two hours travelling each way to put in 8 hrs. work.

Then, after I got my degree and worked as a forester managing a large land base and supervising technicians. I was on salary and worked an average 11 hr day and sometimes had to work weekends. Vacation? 1 week/yr, 2 weeks a year after 5 yrs, then 3 after 15 yrs. Retirement? Yes, but not much. Medical benefits? Yeah, but nothing like school teachers get. Fires? You bet, and lots of 'em. 24 hrs/day at first, then 12 on, 12 off. All this for a salary that many teachers would turn up their noses at.

But, I knew going in that forestry wasn't a profession where many people got rich....you did it because you love the forest and the outdoors, etc. Those who didn't love it didn't pick that field or didn't stick with it for long.

Isn't it (shouldn't it be) the same with teachers? :whazzup:

[Straydog]

GSA,

Did you factor in your college ed. being paid with the GI Bill to figure your military salary?

Most teachers pay their own way through college and for continuing education.

Did the GI Bill help you get started in housing?
Do you get Vets loan rates on your $350,000 home?

Most teachers pay the same rate as the rest of us non military types.

Not saying you were not entitled to what ever post military benefits you did or are recieving, just as usual, trying to make sure we are indeed comparing apples to apples.

[monoman]

True
I'm done with you! Nobody insults my kid standing for you, nobody!

GSA
I love my job. I have turned down others that would pay more, but I like getting up and working. I don't understand people who have jobs that don't like to get up and go to them.

Dog
Your job is no less important than theirs. If you screw someones business up, they may not eat. If a teacher screws a kid up that kid may not eat! Your on a board, do you hold all teachers accountable? I am very pro teacher, check my voting, always in the schools when the kid was there, I just don't want to hear the poor teacher speech. Go do something else if you don't want to be there. Every great teacher I know enjoys being there, not always maybe, but it is as much their life as my job is to me.

[monoman]

Dog
Your making a jump in who pays for teachers college. I know six teachers, one GI Bill, 1 just to bright to have to pay, 4 were paid for by mom and dad. Let's not open the apples for apples thing here...I don't want this to go to a pers thing!

[ 02-14-2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: monoman ]

[onstep]

True,

Your tax dollars will never be enough to measure the gratitude and respect you owe to our armed forces. Teaching is a valuable and important function in our society. Don't forget that because of the bravery of people like monoman's kid you can publicly complain about your wages and have your opinions heard in an open forum. I went to public school and then to the University of Oregon and recieved two degrees. Had I not been gifted with some God given talent athletically and military minded father who motivated me to succeed the public education sector would have failed, as I was ill prepared for a university. I attended public schools that were thought to be the best and reality was they lacked not money, but quality educators. Teaching in this state doesn't require any real system of measurement that puts teachers to task. I'm willing to pay more to educators when they are ready to make what the students in their classes produce part of their compensation. Be tops in your field and you will be rewarded accordingly. In my world of business the best are rewarded with the hightest compensation, how long you've worked somewhere and what your degree is has only a small impact....

[ 02-14-2003, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: onstep ]

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Straydog:
GSA,

Did you factor in your college ed. being paid with the GI Bill to figure your military salary?

Most teachers pay their own way through college and for continuing education.

Did the GI Bill help you get started in housing?
Do you get Vets loan rates on your $350,000 home?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">No, I forgot to include the GI Bill benefits.....lets see, $135/month for 1st 2 yrs, $220/mo for last 2 yrs = $6,390 divided by 1460 days active duty = $4.37 extra pay per day. Whoopie!!! That brought total pay up to about $7/day.

No, I didn't use the veteran's loan program to buy my house........paid cash.

[Straydog]

Mono,

"Most" was an important word in my post you seem to have missed.

As for mom's and dad's paying, that is indeed a whole new subject. However, it does not disqualify asking if one's GI Beni's were figured into his statement about salary.

I will drop this now because, you are right, we do not want to get into the PERS thing......... I would though, be interested in seeing what incriminating picture of whom was used to negotiate the PERS contract!!! :grin:

[True]

Gentlemen,

I had to go back and see where this all got out of hand. It was Thumper's fault with his comment on teachers being well paid. Then someone said something about the system being corrupt and then it went to actual hours in the school system. From there it went to "quit complaining" and briefcases to taxes and then the military.

For the record. I appreciate the military very much. I even say thank you when former students come by to thank former teachers. I also pay my taxes (on time). I am sure you and your family are very proud of your son. When my uncles and father served we were very proud of them too.

All systems have the capacity of being corrupt. As I've said before, things do need to change and accountability needs to come to the front and be recognized.
But, when was the last time that we (the American people) had to vote for passing military budgets? And yet we do that every year or so to fund education. Something needs to change. Accountability on both parts, perhaps?

Monoman, I'm sorry if I offended you. It was not my intent. I only wished to use the same argument that you used with me, "I say thankyou when I pay my taxes..." I didn't react emotionally nor did I complain about the amount that teachers make, either. Nor did I complain about the number of hours that I put in in a "normal" day. I merely wanted to justify the amount that we make. Please quote me if I am wrong.

Humility must sometimes pave the way for friendship and respect. So again, please accept my humble apology if you were offended, but do not take it as a sign of weakness.

True

[Thumper]

True is right --- this was all my fault for suggesting that teachers are pretty much paid O.K.

But I still want that 3 month paid vacation!!!

[True]

And I want you to have that vacation, Thumper! Become a teacher! Mentor a kid. Take 'em fishing. There are a lot of kids in schools that would love to go. I only have so many seats in my car. Of course my rods and gear go first so usually there's not enough room left... :grin: :grin:

True

[monoman]

True
you were right there until you used the word "but", to bad.
Dog
I got them, I got them...will "most"of them, don't we all wish.

[True]

Monoman, that's as much as I can give without getting. Take it, leave it, or forget it. I'm sure you won't lose any sleep over it. Nor will I.

True

[monoman]

True
I have always felt when a man puts but on the end of a statement, he does not mean or believe what he wrote. If a man must claim that he is not weak than he must think the rest of the world thinks he is. I did not think of you as weak, I do not know you, I just knew you were wrong!

[Fish_N_Russ]

I would like to add that in many school districts teachers get lifetime health insurance upon retirement (or are able to get a very low cost plan with good coverage). This is quite substantial with the skyrocketing health care costs :smile: