Oregonian's Head lines today 2-1-03

[Smily]

Chip Industry's Roads Lead to China


There you have it. Nothing we make here anymore we can afford to buy. It has to come from China so we can afford it. I don't get it. What happen to Keep Americans working and Buy American? That is becoming so true now days again. I know how we overprice ourselves at times but there needs to be a happy balance of import and export.

The article show's a pic with a general Manager that built a $500 million dollar factory in Hillsboro to not ever produce a single wafer.
That does it. Everything you see made that we consume is made in China now days.When you open christmas presents where were they made? One guess. Yep. Don't get me wrong I think there are very few things left we get made from around here. What?

Most of my work that I do is going away too, not to china but to mexico or elsewhere. What is going to happen to this country when we depend on everything that comes from everywhere else. Our country was built on Industry and I see it going away.HHHHHmmmmmm...

I thought it was good article to read on. It also tell about how they are abandoning bicycles and getting cars to drive and designer products and fast food places. Guess where that life styles sounds like. Right now it is hurting our economy but it will catch up to them sometime too. They don't have the enviromental restrictions so they get done a lot cheaper as well as the labor.


Okay I ranted enough. I'll begin to breathe now. One breath at a time......

:smile: Smily :smile: or not so

[1pump]

I buy USA when I can. Both my vehicles are Ford, although a good share of their components come from Mexico and elsewhere.
My boat? American. My outboard? American. This computer I'm typing on? I think it's USA (it's an HP) but I never checked. Most of my major appliances are USA. I've got a buttload of tools and 90% are USA.
With some goods, like textiles (clothes) and consumer electronics, it's hard to find any USA-made stuff. I'm not as militant as I used to be, but I still check country of origin on major purchases.
Remember the surge of patriotism after 9/11? What always struck me as hypocritical were people who drove around flying giant American flags on their Toyotas and BMW's. I preferred to show my patriotism the old fashioned way-- by buying American goods and services.

[TheRogue]

Unfortunately, it's mighty tough to "Buy American". My father was looking for an excavator back in the early '80s. Like any good Curry County logger , he was going to buy American!! He was pretty set on a John Deere over a Caterpillar or Komatsu. Doing a lot of research, asking questions and making phone calls, it turns out that of the three, the most "Made In America" parts were on the Komatsu!! The John Deere he was looking at was almost completely made of imported components. He ended up with a Cat 235, because he just couldn't bring himself to buy the "furren" one.

There's nothing wrong with "free world trade", as long as the playing field is level. ALL OTHER COUNTRIES either have insanely low wages and horrible working conditions, or are HEAVILY subsidized by their government. I feel we need to pull out of NAFTA and other unfair trade agreements, until those other countries can prove up to our standards.

Either that, or we need to break the unions, and pay $10-15 per day to common laborers and technicians.

TR

[ 02-02-2003, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: TheRogue ]

[sinker]

Shipping work overseas is directly effecting my line of work right now. Boeing is offloading tons of work to asia right now. Just found out they're making the 737 tail sections in China now. They ship it to Renton and slap it onto the butt end of the fuselage. I make assemblies that get shipped to China and assembled there.
As far as vehicles the BIG 3 have hurt the American worker far more than the Japanese companies ever did. Last I heard there was only one model of Cadillac that was totally made in the US. All the rest are made in Canada and Mexico. Japanese manufacturers to avoid tarriffs have opened up tons of plants here in the US.
What do I drive? A 92 Toyota 4x4 that was made in the US and a 92 Astro van. Not sure where the van was made at. But then again I bought them both used so I contributed in no way to either side of the US/Japan trade war.
I know there's tons of machinists in the Great Lakes region that are looking for work due to all the mold shops packing up and moving to China. Manufacturing isn't a good line of work to be in right now.

Makes ya wonder what we're all gonna be doing for work in 20 years. :depressed:

[blacktail]

Yes, this is very sad. there are lots of reasons this has happened.

I drive a Toyota that was made in the USA. I know that probably most of the profits are going back to Japan, but I believe it is of better quality than the big three.

In addition, I have three relatives that work for Toyota. They are a good company to work for.

Mike

[HOGTIDE]

It's really tough to buy "American" even if you do bleed red, white and blue. Most of your auto wiring is assembled in Mexico, your Ford/Mazda transmission is from Japan, your paint is from Italy, your shirts are from Bangledesh, your sports equipment is from Pakistan and your expensive shoes are from Korea and the Phillippines. Flip over your Bausch & Lomb scope and your Browning A-bolt and look at the embossing!

I buy Fords and Alumaweld andMercury marine and Leupold on purpose...but I'm quite sure I will soon learn that they too, are part of the global smorgasboard.

I'm afraid it's an international market, whether we like it or not. Now...how can we compete?

[RvW]

If I lived in the 60's, I'd try quite hard to spark a revolution. Imagine if the people of America United and refused to purchase anything other than food and gas and toiletries? I know this is far fetched, but if people actually put it into perspective, lived with what they NEED without purchasing what they want for a while, we'd see change.

Thats just not going to happen. theres too many people who , with thier 1.2 kid family, and $120k dual income who are quite comfortable living exactly the way they are.

Then theres the service industry, which is said to have 2 million illegal immigrants working in it, most of whom send a large portion of thier earnings back home.

its estimated that 2 million illegal immigrants are in the US. can you imagine 2 million people spending $5 food stamp dollars per day? Thats 10 million dollars a day to support people who dont belong here anyway.

I know theres people who somehow think its unethical to restrict these people from the oportunities abound here, but ask yourselves this, do you feel you have any right or reason to be able to walk into say, Canada, with no money in your pocket, and live off the people who were born and raised in a system that they have financially supported, and generations before tham have finacially supported for years and years?

On the other hand. if it doesnt appear to be a crisis that warrants any one doing something about, I mean REALLY becoming a noticable part of the solution, I cant imagine theres a majority who would refuse to jump at any oportunity to reduce thier labor costs by sending it overseas, as oposed to paying a fair price for labor rite HERE, where the rewards for a quality product can be reaped by all, and filtered back into the domestic economy.

Did you know that the US has allowed an additional 30,000 foriegners to enter the US to fill high tech jobs each year, every year for the last 11 years?
Thats above and beyond the thousands and thousands who get in with NO skills at all, and the estimated 10k per year that get in illegally.
Sure this might be a huge benefit to the industries that need the talent, but what happens to the people here who struggle for an education and are left at the recruiting desk with a "thanks, good luck" simply because the company recognizes diversity, and a US dollar can buy a weeks worth of food in India (wage requests of foriegners are much lower than what those who have student loans would expect to be able to get out of debt in 20 years)

I have a friend who works for Applied Materials in Santa Clara.

his company has seen a 60 percent decrease in labor costs which seems to be a great thing there, but my friend also mentioned that they have seen an 80% increase in foriegn workers who come here with barely enough qualifications, make some good money and go to school for more skills and split back to thier country to live high on the hog with the money they earned and participate in thier own country's demands.

In a nuttshell, its not only NAFTA that makes no sense at all, its our open borders.

The US has been a financial giant for so long, that it has forgotten to protect the practices that made it that way.

When the US sends 10 billion dollars to Africa for aids relief, how many lives is it going to SAVE? not many, its estimated that 10 million have already died, and 15 million are infected with the virus.

Were sending the money for medicine and education, which will be spent on people who will be dead shortly and people who already KNOW the dangers of aids, but refuse to conform to a lifestyle to prevent it.

Drop a plane full of AMERICAN MADE condoms and instructions once a week. Keep the money here and provide an oportunity for people here to EARN it.

[Lepper]

sweat shops is where it is at...... Start writing your senator today!!

[RvW]

Sweat shops are not going to go away, theres so many of them that conform to thier own laws, and people are actually willing to work in them, so other than a humanitarian effort to provide better working conditions, what is the benefit of even examining the so called "sweat shops" out there?

Sure, more money will be spent to improve overseas labor conditions but who do you think is going to foot the bill for that increase in labor costs?

Joe consumer foots that bill, so in essence, your cry for fair labor practices in the foriegn industry is only going to compound YOUR problems, because those factories are never going to be shut down, and believe it or not, the foriegn laborers who work in the terrible conditions will FIGHT to keep them there because they have nothing else.

The only way to have an immediate effect is to buy american, as was said, this isnt an easy thing to do anymore, but Dont think for a second that an effort now wont slow the inevitable. Soon it wont even be possible!.

[Smily]

You guys have made some good points. I know I buy American where I can and I know it's impossible to buy 100%. I am really scared to see where we'll be 20 years from now. Actually I won't care and hope I can retire then. But the ride is gonna be a bumby one as far as I can see. I wonder if I'll even be in the same occupation then. I have been doing the same thing now for 22 years now. Maybe it is time for a change.

Thanks for the input and letting me vent as it is a frustating topic for me. :shocked:

:smile: Smily :smile:

[Silver Hilton]

COR,

The major practice that has made the US a great economic power is periodic waves of immigration of cheap labor willing to do what the current residents would no longer do. This has included the Irish, the Germans, the Polish, and now the Mexicans and Indians.

Manufacturing thrives on cheap labor. Not a cheerful thought, but it's true. If you want too keep manufacturing in the US, there needs to be a labor pool, and a lot of second generation Americans think janitorial work, ditch digging, and fast food order taking are beneath them. If we shut off cheap labor, the rational thing for manufacturers to do is to send work to the cheap labor.

This is why they call economics, 'the dismal science'.

[RvW]

Very true SH, but consider the overflow of immigrants in a labor market that doesnt exsist. Oregons unemployment rate is what 11 percent?

While I realize theres people out there who wont take a job they think is beneath them, 26 weeks of unemployment and they wont have much of a choice. But tell me something, would you hire a displaced telecommunications engineer to flip burgers, or would you prefer to hire someone from south of the border who is likely to be 100% commited to his/her job and isnt much of a threat to your own? (or diligently searching for something else)

Heres an interesting example. I am that displaced telecom engineer. Before I even got my first unemployment check in the mail, I had applied to a zillion talentless jobs. In each of the applications or resumes that I sent, I listed salary requirements as "negotiable".

Not one call-back. And trust me, theres not many negatives in my work history, other than a big blank spot in my resume when I was illegally self employed in Canada, and married to a very wealthy woman with no need to work for a living.

Back to the first post.
Whos to blame for the logging industry downfall? I say the logging industry is, loggers say its the spotted owl and the salmon huggers and the tree huggers and the EPA and this and that.

How long has Coos Bay been shut down?
Who thinks tree huggers and environmentalists really had anything to do with it?
I'll tell you something, logging companies are responsible for thier own demise, they sold all the trees to Japan and Australia. and you know what Japan and Australia did with the ones they didnt mill and sell back to us? They buried them, yes, buried them like the little treasures they were.
Thier labor costs stayed relatively the same, yet finished lumber prices went higher and higher in the states and thats exactly what they were waiting for. Not only were there tons of jobs lost in the timber industry, and the rising cost of finished lumber, but the monies generatated by finished lumber sales stayed in the foriegn lands where it was produced!

Bottom line? American workers make less and spend more, only to have the dollars fall into the hands of foriegn companies, and the US business man whos lucky enough to take over Dads business with a bunch of smart CPAs and import export attorneys.

[ 02-02-2003, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

[HeavyMetal BankFisherman]

Even when you think your buying American your'e probably not. I have seen the Ford plant in Hermissillo Mexico. Ever been there? Bring your own water. Own an Escort? It probably came from there. AMP, the largest manufacturer of electronic connectors has a huge plant in the same city. Northern Mexico is full of American manufacturing facilities. What's screwed is the fact that the workers work for next to nothing. They live dirt poor. We pay the same amount for the products regardless of where they are made. All the profits go to just a few at the companies. You know the 50 million dollar CEO that leads his company into bankruptcy and still walks away with that 10 million dollar bonus and 1 million a year in pension. Not to mention free access to the corporate jet for life. And the fact that as he walks away with millions for doing nothing. Thousands are devestated by the loss in value of thier 401k. These are employee's with over twenty years of service. Robbed of everything they had. Yet this CEO joins the company getting millions in signing bonuses, leads them into inevitable bankruptcy, collects a departure bonus when he resigns, and goes to his yacht in the Florida Key's. This really happened at more than just one company.

Basically, manufacturing work in America is going overseas. Not so we, the consumers can benefit from cheaper prices because of the cost savings but so a few can enrich themselves. Typically any savings due to manufacturing costs in third world countries is nullified by the cost of logistics and transport. But hey, didn't I see a picture of CEO from manufacturing company X playing a round of golf with CEO from Overnight delivery company X?

What a scam. They all get rich while they destroy the American economy. No it's not all part of some grand scheme. It's nothing more than greed.

I say don't just buy in America but Make in America. Make is the main point. We still pay almost the same price because the cost savings aren't passed on to us. Cut the corporate greed factor "Dennis Kozlowski from Tyco with his $6000 shower curtain" make it ALL in America and sell it at the same price. That will reduce corporate profits but the stockholder isn't seeing any of it anyway after all of the accounting maneuvers these guys use to hide the money for thier yachts and planes.

[HeavyMetal BankFisherman]

Think about it. WorldCom, Enron, Global Crossing, Every other company that has cost investors huge amounts of money. This crap is destroying America. Why aren't these guys in jail? They caused the loss of of hundreds of billions in honest Americans savings. What about the Korean war veteran that thought he had $250,000 in his retirement. More than enough to keep him living happily along with his monthly pension. Today that retirement is worth barely $20,000 enough to hopefully allow him to just make up for the defecit on his bills that his pension does not cover. This will only last for a few years but also forget those trips and other things that he would do when he finally had the time. Hey Dennis Kozloswsky, Bernie Ebbers, Kenneth Lay, etc... Thanks for making this patriotic Americans life turn into a life of misery in his final years. This is not me or anyone in my family but is a true story about someone I know. I imagine many have seen similar tales from the dark.

I think the biggest problem with our economy is due to the fact that nobody trusts our corporations anymore and nobody is willing to invest. Until we take away all of the power available to the greedy scumbags running these billion dollar companies, make things more transparent like real time access to the balance sheet. Amazing concept isn't it. All partnerships publicly declared and complete details involving partners disclosed. Actually let people see where the money is and what its doing.

If you have a small business and you want to expand you most likely will go to a bank for a loan. You will be required to provide a significant amount of information regarding your financial affairs. Shouldn't corporations be required to provide just as much information to shareholders as you are required to provide when you need a loan? Aren't you in effect an owner of the company? In simple english. If you can decipher a quarterly report you most likely know that you have been told basically nothing. As a stockholder you know next to nothing about the real financial status of the company. 99% fluff and 1% bad news. You just don't know about the bad news because you can't find it in all the fluff.

Too bad that thats the way things are. Reality can be a drag.

[FM2]

Having been in international business and traveling to China and Taiwan I can say the standard of living there is nothing compared to what we have here.

I am born American and will always be but until people in America grasp the reality of why so much of the work that had been previously performed in the US and is now shipped overseas is primarily due to the greed that exists within the US. American's expect the best of everything, have to have everything and if they don't they scream and kick their feet in a tantrum until they get their way. I'm sorry folks to paint the "reality" picture but it's true. Unless American's learn to get back to basics and not think their entitled to everything their whims desire, jobs will continue to be transported overseas.

People can ***** and moan about NAFTA and hundreds of other companies that have shifted their production overseas but until the vision of greed exit's, this will continue to be a continuing saga of US economics and production.

Don't worry Andy, if you want to use gamie hooks that's ok because they work real good with those bait diver's. :grin: :grin:

[GutshotApe]

I, too, try to buy American. Just got a new computer - an Intel. Great, I thought, not only a US company but one with a big factory in the Portland area. But when the box arrived with my new stuff it said "made in Mexico, Malaysia and/or China. No kidding, not even a particular country - just one or more of the three listed.

But, of course, the real problem is the American consumer, like me, who drives the flow of jobs offshore by buying the cheaper foreign goods. How much would my $589 computer have cost if it had been 100% made in the USA? :whazzup:

[garyk]

Many books have been written on this complicated topic.

Turning the stretch from Pennsylvania to Detroit into 'the rust belt' didn't happen overnight, but rather more than 25 years. The same patterns have ocurred across the country.

Locally, keep you eyes on the total picture of the proposed Columbia channel deepening. Basically, the citizenry is asked to fork over millions of dollars so that wheat and other high-volume/low value goods can be exported. In return we get Toyota shiploads of highvalue products; increasing the trade deficit and sending capital out of the country. It's rather pitiful once you cut through the BS spun by the supporting industries and their politicians.

Anyway, nice to see so many diverse folks questioning the dominant paradigm - maybe there's still hope?