Humble Pie...want some?

Lured In · 01-28-2003, 11:00 PM

It's late and i'm getting tired. I've watched the State of the Union (SOTU) and the polls on 28. I am still looking for a job after 6 months and things don't seem much different than they did a few months ago.

I have enjoyed the friendly bantering on this board and even got a little hot under the collar myself. Hopefully you have too.

Our frustration with the things around us are indicative our our passion for our state, our country and hopefully a better world.

Reading some of the comments on the defeat of 28 and on the SOTU, I got to thinking. (Which is always dangerous, especially late at night). People are mocking those in support of 28, people are mocking those opposed to 28, people are mocking those who support Bush, and so on.

My question is, when do you look back and say, what did I learn? In 6 months from now when the new OR budget is out and the kids are still in school (hopefully), will you feel differently about 28 failing. (Basically if it turns out to be a hoax of sorts. keep your fingers crossed.) What about in possibly 3 months after soundly defeating Saddam and we find not only lots of WMD, but perhaps a flowering nuclear program? Will you admit you were wrong?

For those of us in support of Bush, if this whole thing goes down and no WMD are found (basically that he had disarmed)and all the hubbub on Iraq fades away, will we admit we were wrong?

My point is this...there will always be a 'cause' to rally our beliefs around and something to complain about. At what point do we step up to the plate and take a big ol' bite of HUMBLE PIE and swallow? Will you admit your thoughts were a wee bit off the mark?

Just something to think about as we look at OR economy tanking (WA is right behind you), the US economy spiraling, the war on Iraq, and ultimately how Bush's term finishes up.

Our country is a great one, our people's hearts (however confused they may be), have the strength to carry the US into the future. But let us not forget the things we learned and see if we can do better next time.

Signing off from my pulpit and heading for my bunk. [img]graemlins/program.gif[/img]

sinker · 01-29-2003, 02:01 AM

As far as not finding WMD, I wouldn't have a problem if we didn't find any. Everyone knows he wants them, everyone knows he used them on his own citizens in the past and will in the future if left in power.

Rip'N'Lips · 01-29-2003, 09:44 AM

Sinker-

My question to you is when did we become the watchdog of the world.

Who is the only country to have used Nukes in a war? This is my opinion is drawing a line in the sand and then hitting them in the face when they are still behind the line....

We have real problems here, money is needed here.... ICBM programs? How far away is Iraq? Are they really going to nuke us from there? We need to worry about homeland security and follow an approach closer to Israel. Box knives are still making it on the planes, nothing has been fixed in terms of security, now we are sending 100 of thousands of people to their death, likely not Americans but still... there will be loss of life on our side.

According to Bush we should attack everyone in the Middle East, they all have ties to Al Qaeda.... are we going to no. Just Iraq because they made his dad look bad. Will we get Saddam, no just kill thousands of people living in squalor...

Just my $.03

Rip'N'Lips

northriver1 · 01-29-2003, 10:11 AM

Could it be said this way? Who is the only president to use Nukes. Thats right, a democrat. The party of nukes, that has a nice ring to it. I think I will put that on a bumper sticker.

Now isn't that is how it is done, revise history. We bash RR because the deficits grew during his administration, but the monies (tax income) nearly doubled during the same period. It was a spending problem. But that does not matter when it comes to these kind of fights. People are people and the hardest thing to do is say you are wrong.

husker · 01-29-2003, 03:14 PM

who cares about iraq?.....north korea is a much bigger threat....and we'll wont threaten them with war...kicking iraq's butt again is like kicking your little brother to the curb.....whats the point.......bush is turning into an imperialist.....why not say we want the oil and were coming to take it....shesh.......losers.....we need a war like i need health problems......

[ 01-29-2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: husker ]

STGRule · 01-29-2003, 03:24 PM

Lured In: The best thing that could happen would to be able to say I was wrong. Hopefully I can say it a bunch of times in the next couple of years. Serve me up some humble pie, ala mode please.

Lured In · 01-29-2003, 04:19 PM

Bravo STG! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

I was beginning to wonder if anyone could form a reflective thought of what it might mean if our personal opinions were wrong. :shocked:

Don't get me wrong, I am not going to be the one serving the pie, that's not my intent. My point was simply that I will be the first in line to say I was mistaken.

I think some of us are getting lost in the "cause of the moment" rather than what was the outcome of the last "cause of the moment" and did we learn anything?

blacktail · 01-29-2003, 06:32 PM

I think from what I've read in many posts on this site that I believe most Ifishers would admit when they were wrong. However, I'm not sure how accurate a cross section of American that is.

I do believe from what I've seen in the government that most will not admit when they are wrong and instead of wanting what's right for this country they are more concerned about party lines and making the other look bad at all cost.

Mike

Straydog · 01-29-2003, 07:12 PM

I will gladly admit it loud and clear if proven wrong.

I truely hope I am.

crabbait · 01-29-2003, 10:46 PM

I sincerely hope that I am wrong. If I am right and we blindly follow Bush into the final war there will be few of us left to argue the point with.

First we demonize people because it makes it a whole lot easier to kill them.

Keep asking questions. Here's one for you: Once we start this holy war, how will we know when we have won? How will we know when it is over?

The answers I keep coming up with are: We won't know because it will never be over.

Sea Nymph · 01-29-2003, 11:14 PM

RNL, Saddam's chemical weapons and Nukes will most likely (if at all) be delivered by brief cases and suitcases carried by people with fake papers, coming in across the canadian border.

When the pilots carry guns and sit behind locked doors, box cutters probably won't be as effective.

SN

happybrew · 01-29-2003, 11:24 PM

Okay, after a lot of time pondering this, I think I'm against the war. I'm still shaky on it. The deal for me is, even taking all of the valid reasons that I still find very persuasive:

1. Saddam hasn't done anything to us yet. We have been shown no evidence that he is actually planning to do something to us, only that he is a threat.

2. Saddam hasn't done anything to his neighbors yet. We haven't been shown evidence that he is actually planning to do something against his neighbors.

3. Granted, Saddam is a really bad guy, but.... the things he's been accused of as justification for a war are things that we have done and continue to do: develop weapons of mass destruction.

4. We only punish those who have done wrong, or are an imminent threat. Saddam has been let loose for ten years, the threat isn't imminent, and he hasn't attacked anybody. If he attacks somebody, hammer him with everything we've got. If we have evidence that he is about to launch an attack, hammer him with everything we've got. But he hasn't done that yet. Gotta keep the dogs on the leash for now.

happybrew

Tilla · 01-30-2003, 11:13 PM

Did you know Peter Framton was a member of Humble Pie. The first time I saw them was at the Fillmore West in 1971. Uh Oh OOPS!

The next few weeks are going to be very interesting. :whazzup:

HeavyMetal BankFisherman · 01-30-2003, 11:36 PM

With Abortion and Religion. I believe in the Dont Ask Dont Tell policy.

Straydog · 01-31-2003, 07:03 AM

UUUmmmm, Heavymetal, wrong thread.

Now I KNOW you are a logger!! :grin: :grin:

Salesman Straydog

Cool Texan · 01-31-2003, 08:17 AM

Happybrew,

I respect your opinions...really do. But lets play devils advocate for a second.

Hitler never did anything to us. Milosovich never did anything to us. Castro never did anything to us. The list goes on.

Sometimes its not a matter of whether or not someone did something to us. Sometimes, unfortunately, its about whether someone is doing something to other people, or demonstrating the willingness to help others do those things.

I'm still on the fence waiting for Powell to tell us what this "evidence" is....then I'll make my decision.

happybrew · 01-31-2003, 08:18 PM

Cool Texan: If you recall, Hitler did something to his neighbors. That justified the action. Milosovich was doing something, albeit to his own people trying to break away........... Dang!! It is a fine line. Okay, Milosovich was in the process of committing genocide. That justified the action. Saddam Hussein has been prevented from doing that by the no-fly zones and Kurdish autonomous regions. Bombing the heck out of them when they step out of line as has been done for a long time is entirely justified. Castro, we never went after directly, but assisted Cubans who wished to get rid of a communist dictator, and that action was justified. Communism is a horrible state of affairs. Same thing with the Contras. I believe that was justified. I don't think Panama was justified, and I have mixed feelings on Grenada. I think Vietnam was justified, because we were assisting the legitimate government of South Vietnam at their request to fight off communism. A telling fact on how that was justified is the fact that more people died in the first two years after the fall of the South than in thirty years of war prior to that. But this is different. He's not committing genocide (not to say that he's a nice guy, just that the numbers and facts don't fit that definition), he hasn't currently attacked us or his neighbors, and no plans for an imminent attack have been made public. If any of those things happen, I say stomp on him with everything we've got, but we've got to make sure we have a strong moral justification before doing so, not just the fear that he might attack us. To tell the truth, I have been dragged to this conclusion kicking and screaming. My first instinct is to just kick the living daylights out of him and turn him into a smoking pile of organic material, but we've got to do that in a moral way. (Sounds kind of sick and contradictory, I know. :grin: )

happybrew

Otolith · 02-03-2003, 08:04 AM

Here is a nice big piece of humble pie for the Pro-28 gang....

Just kidding, we won't have to let prsioners out....