Measure 28 - R.I.P.

[Cool Texan]

[ 01-29-2003, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Cool Texan ]

[Alligator]

[ 01-29-2003, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Alligator ]

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

I have learned that when dealing with complex issues like the budget, even when the outcome is in my favor, I hesitate to “dance on anyone’s grave”

Please play nice, there were and are strong feelings on both sides


*** Clerk

[RvW]

Heres how measure 28 would effects your lives.

A mere .5% tax increase for three years.

Heres how the defeat effects my life, and the lives of others.

I left a $75k per year job in Clack to care for my father who is permanently disabled.
This so called "job" pays, or DID pay me $333.00 per month. I will no longer be paid to care for my father and now must find additional work outside our home to support myself and my children to make up for the loss.

My father relies on medications to keep him alive, these medications are not cheap, living on $814.00 per month on SSDI the expense of medications will now exceed his income.

EVERYONE who is not a "level 4" handicapped individual on state assistance (at least a paraplegic) will see significant decreases in thier state help. This includes mentally ill patients who require mind altering drugs to keep them safe and sane. GONE!

March 31st is the last day the state will pay for those who, like my father NEED someone to help them get dressed, or shop for food, or do thier laundry, or sit up in bed to visit thier grandchildren.

Before the measure was defeated, the mere rumor of the effect it would have has caused 3 confirmed suicides in the state of Oregon.

I wonder how many we will see tonight?

Hooray, drink that beer and celebrate, we live in such a wonderful country were we can be safe and sound in the comforts of our patriotic unselfish brothers and sisters who decide with a simple stroke of a pen that a few bucks a week is worth more than our fellow men and women in genuine need.

[WaterDog]

Either way I dont see where this is cause to party. :depressed: It was not an easy decision to make. What I don't like is the scare tactics that get used to sway your vote. They always target the services that will affect the most people. Never mind the fact there a probably other areas that cuts can and should be made like the motor pool and special programs. It's a matter of priorities and so far the state government has its priorities messed up.

Giving them more money is the easy answer, getting someone to step up and make some decisions about what the priorites are is where the solution lies. If my income drops I don't cut out the food budget to keep the cable tv, internet service, go to a movie, or buy a new car.

[Straydog]

Well said COTR,

Good luck with your dad.

My family is better off than many and won't have to deal with the personal issues you are battling.

I however am now dreading my work on the School Budget Committee.

Unless my Republican Party really does have money stashed under the nut shell as they have been telling us, I get the pleasure of deciding which teacher's lives we turn upside down by laying them off.

I will get to decide which schools have athletics and which do not.


I will get to decide which classes get new textbooks and which ones continue to use outdated, ripped up ones missing pages.

I get to help explain to my kids that while our country has no qualms about spending millions on one bomb or billions on military personell, it will not adequately fund education so that she might have the same chances as those before her did.

I guess our President feels billions to foreign countries to fight aides is more important than caring for our own and educating our kids.

Yea, party on dudes because it is very likely when we start having to pay for the consequences of defeating this measure you will not be able to afford the beer you are toasting today............................

A sad, sad day for our state.

[CATCH AND EAT]

I agree with Waterdog (again ) that this is not quite a party of celebration. Bracing for the impacts of this matter is something I really don't care to do.

COTR, kind of in the same boat as you. My mother-in-law is disabled and lives in an adult care facility. She may be on her way out since she is dependant on SS, Medicare, and Medicade to pay for her quarters. I certainly am not excited about the posibility of her moving in with me. We are having a difficult time as it is.

Then there are my 3 children in David Douglas school district. Classes are larger but they are still learning. I don't particularly care if out door school gets cut as I do not agree with some things that they teach. I do worry about things such as speach theropy. special ed. Athletics and can take or leave them. I do care that my children get the latest in books and teaching aids.

Measure twenty eight was not going to solve any of that. The whole idea of living within our means is just something that schools and government do not understand. And, I don't believe they ever will. GW spoke of living within our means for the congress. I laughed out loud as the congress both Dems and Reps stood up and applauded. As a republican, I was a bit embarrased by that statement especially after he outlined all the foreign aid garbage. :depressed:

[Artwo]

I'm certianly not partying over the outcome of this measure because yes it was a tough desicion to make. But I think a bold statement was made last night from the people of this great state that they will not be held hostage anymore by our state goverment for their lack of finacial responsabilities. I agree that the unanamous choice to defeat this measure will have some serious effects on certian individuals. Hopefully it will send a clear message back to Salem that we the people of Oregon have had enough of the frivilous spending that this state goverment has been living high on the hog on for so long and that it needs to end. It's time to cut the fat from the non-essential programs and appliy this money to where it is needed the worse; schools, public safety, elderly care, etc....................

Take heed those in the state goverment, the people have spoken..................

JK

[Straydog]

Waterdog, C and E,

There is one large, glaring problem with the analogy of the State living within their means and an individual family living within their means.

When a family has no more money, if it is responsible, it does not let itself (the family) grow. We don't, as responsible people say we have no more money but keep making babies.

If we are to use the analogy you and others put forth, we must stop all growth within the state, one of the fastest growing states in the nation.

It does not work to say live within your means when we are being inundated with new comers and the demands on "our means" are growing daily.

[Kruechief]

We'll see.

It wasn't Bush who spent our state's money like a drunken sailor.

I am proud that Oregonians stood tall and rejected the Legislatures posturing. I have some faith that we have not fallen completely to Californiaification.

I am proud that Oregonians did not allow our government to hold us hostage. However, the government had better step up and FIND the money for people like your father COTR and for the funding of our schools.

Krue

[TheRogue]

I'm proud that 45% of Oregonians stood tall and voted yes. Remember?? The conservatives said this measure would go down by 80%, when the Republican-lead legislature put it out to us.

Now that it's failed, I sincerely hope I and 45% of the rest of Oregon are wrong. I certainly hope we're wrong in thinking we're going to loose a few hatcheries. I'm hoping we're wrong in thinking that kids are going to loose school days. I hope we're wrong in thinking this legislature will be too partisanly divided to accomplish anything.......

I'll happily admit I'm wrong, if the above things, and all the other cuts forecast, don't come true. Will those of you who voted no say the same thing, if they do??

TR

[WaterDog]

Straydog,

I understand all to well. I work for a small City and back in November the voters said No to an operating levy just to keep our current level of service. We have cut all of the “luxury” programs and are down to bare bones stuff. Folks here will lose their job. :depressed: The problem is like any huge company or corporation there is a ton of money just wasted. We need to get back to doing the basic stuff. Why is that so hard?

[Cool Texan]

I dont celebrate the fact that some people will be impacted by the failure of 28. What I am happy about is that hopefully this will force the leaders of this great state to stand up and fix the problems so that this never becomes an issue again for anyone.

I meant no disrespect to anyone by my first post...I sincerely apologize to those who were insulted by it.

My wife works in the assisted living industry...which might very well be impacted to a degree. A good friend of ours is a teacher. But we need to fix the problem, not dump money into it. I was listening to NPR a few days ago, and they even mentioned the fact that the bill said very little about what the money would be used for. Had 28 clearly outlined who would get the money, and how the problem would be fixed in the future, I would have voted yes.

I agree with you though...we now have to brace for the impacts. This is the defining moment for Ted K (who is going to cut the Medicaid part with or without 28, which is why even my wife voted No) and others. I'll be curious to see how they choose to "lead" us now.

[RvW]

Measure 28 is Temporary

Measure 28 is temporary, this increase will last three years and in 2005, income tax rates will return to 2001 levels. The last time income taxes were increased was in 1982.

What Oregonians Would Pay
Gross Annual Income Average Annual Tax Increase After Federal Deduction
$ 10,000-20,000 $ 16.61
$ 20,000-30,000 $ 48.77
$ 30,000-40,000 $ 80.25
$ 40,000-50,000 $ 107.07
$ 50,000-60,000 $ 147.71
$ 75,000-100,000 $ 211.67
$ 100,000-200,000 $ 385.08

How the tax will be disbursed

Education

State School Fund: $95 million.

Early intervention programs for pre-schoolers with disabilities: $3.1 million.

Community College funding: $14 million.

University system funding: $26.9 million.

Public Safety

State Prisons: $21.6 million, to prevent early release of 4,346 inmates.

Prison grants to counties: $7 million.

250 Youth Authority beds, four facilities: $4.7 million.

322 Oregon State Police positions: $3 million.

Maintain court operations at current levels: $8 million

Social Services

Maintain affordable employment related child care: $1.5 million

Temporary Assistance for Needy Families grants: $544,000.

Services for 5,512 people with developmental disabilities: $11.8 million.

Oregon Project Independence (helps low income senior citizens stay in their homes): $1.5 million.

General assistance to 2700 low income people with disabilities: $3.3 million.

Health Care
20 school based health clinics: $512,000.

Community mental health services for 10,500 adults not eligible for Medicaid: $3.2 million.

122 adult mental health residential treatment beds: $667,000.

Mental health, chemical dependency and dental benefits for 118,000 people on the Oregon Health Plan: $7.2 million.

115 alcohol and drug treatment residential beds: $1.1 million.

Coverage for treatable cancer, mental health illness and broken bones for 438,000 health plan clients: $8.7 million.

Longterm medical care for more than 11,000 senior citizens: $20.6 million.

These current services WILL BE CUT if this measure does not pass. The cost to the average taxpayer of preventing this devastation to what makes Oregon work, is less than $12 per month

Tex, I'm not sure what it is that you are unclear about???

All this information is readily available to the voter, and though I agree some of it could have been more appropriately spent, has there EVER been a measure that makes everyone happy?

Less than $12 bucks a month to keep beds open for mentally ill patients and police on the streets is too much to pay?

Is it not clear that compromise is not an option with the oregon government?
Sure, we sent a message loud and clear, but who is reaping the rewards and who is getting the shaft while the tax payor celebrates a victory to protect $12 bucks a month, for three years?

[ 01-29-2003, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

[Straydog]

Krue,

It was however, President Bush that said "leave no child behind" but failed to adequately fund education.

Remember, a lot of our Federal money is tied to State funds............ as the State funds become less, so do the Federal funds. Double edged sword.

He should have said "leave no child behind ", here is the funding to insure that.

[ 01-29-2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Straydog]

Waterdog,

I agree but who determines what the "basic stuff" is?

What is basic stuff to you or I is much different than what is basic stuff to the person that can not afford a computer, boat, home office, two cars, etc. etc. etc.

Perception and perspective is much different to many people.

[ 01-29-2003, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[CATCH AND EAT]

Straydog, I understand what you are pointing out. We are a growing state. Problem is that while we are growing business is leaving. Why? Because we are taxed incessently by counties, cities, and state government. We can only bleed so much before say Oregon is not worth the effort. No wonder so many of our manufacturing jobs end up out of our country. We cannot afford the labor (to expensive), we cannot afford the taxes (to high) but we can afford to look for some stupid baseball team and try to purchase PGE. Yet, we can't support PDX public schools. Please.

The Rogue, I hope we are all wrong. You ask a tough question. Sorry, I can't answer it. I voted from my perspective and frustration with government. Weary of the threats of cut this and cut that which of course always starts with our children and elderly programs I cannot continue to vote for bonds and measures such as this every stinkin election. A new course of action has to be taken by our leaders. New taxes are not the answer. Government somehow has to cut within itself the remaining fat and unnecessary programs it continually initiates.

Certainly I will be upset when hatchery funding is cut. We all will. But we have to get back to providing for the BASIC NEEDS of the people not the ENTITLEMENTS. I hate that ENTITLEMENT word. It is so misused and abused in todays society.

[Straydog]

C and E,

I hear what you are saying and agree to a point.

The State has little to do with NAFTA and the fact so much labor is moving out of country. Two seperate issues there.

Also, many say we are taxing business away from out state. HHHHmmmm, how about the huge tax incentives and breaks for the Walmarts, Hyundai's, Dell and other businesses of the world? Are we really so mean to them?

Further, how attractive is our state to Mr. Business owner when we are all over the national headlines as having the shortest school year in the nation, having less public safety than needed, having schools falling apart and having too few and too run down parks?

Are those incenctivs for people to locate thier businesses in this fair state.

Quality of life have always been a draw for us. Our quality of life is about to take a big hit unless the Legislators really can shuffle the nut shells and reveal the money in their shell games.

Seems to me one regular and five special sessions held us in suspense long enough, time to reveal the trick.

I for one do not anticipate any magic.

[Cool Texan]

28 offered up nothing to fix the problems or reduce the size of state government. Therefore, I voted no and am bracing for the impacts. We'll get through it.

[Bigdog]

I voted no to make a stand on higher taxes. Not everyone can afford a tax increase in the middle of a recession. I have an idea, take the 45% who voted yes and allow them to Voluntarily give the state 5% more of your taxes since you can afford it. The cuts are tuff but when you can't afford it you can't afford it.

[WaterDog]

Bernie, Good point on the baseball thing. I’m thinking the same thing. The Portland Mayor is trying to get a MLB Team here when it seems to me that they shouldn’t even be discussing it. Yeah I know its bringing business to the state. I can hardly wait until we find out that the tax payers will ultimately fund the stadium. I know she “says” that wont happen, but it has happened in other Cities.

Straydog, I agree it is a matter of perspective. That is why we have elected officials to speak for us. You will never make everybody happy but sometimes you just have to buckle down ( no pun Bernie ) and make some tough choices. Too bad some folks are more worried about getting re-elected than the fixing problems.

A school should teach kids to read, write, and do math. There should be some history, geography, and science in there as well. That is the basics. They don’t need to do art and sing. They don’t need field trips. They don’t really need sports either. I fully understand the benefits that come from these activities and I know to some students that is what they like but they could do these things on their own outside of school. The legislators, school board, City Councils, and citizens can make these decisions. Monday night I sat in a City Council/Citizen Budget Committee meeting and many tough choices were made and there are still more to follow.

[blackdog]

While I don't like to see that individuals may suffer as a result of Oregon's budget problems, I am proud of the resident of this state for standing up to our lousy legislators and their pathetic scare tactics and lies.

Here are some interesting numbers to consider. These are changes in the present budget vs. the last budget as a result of the failure of this measure:

Human services (Oregon health plan, other social programs), + 14.0 % (increase of $323 million)

Public safety (prisons, state police), + 4.3% (increase of $51 million)

K-12 education, + 2.1% (increase of $98 million)

Natural resources (environmental quality, forestry, agriculture), + 5.0% (increase of $35 million)

Higher education, -2.8% (loss of $24 million)

Community colleges, -12.4% (loss of $54 million)

As you can see, some programs will continue to have a very nice increase over the last biennium whereas higher ed and community colleges will pay for these handsome increases.

If the measure had passed, Human services would have received an 18% increase while the community colleges would have seen a 9% reduction in their budget.

Does this sound like any of the information any of our political leaders have been sharing with us lately or our newspapers have been reporting? No. Hopefully now our legislators can actually pull their heads out of their *sses and get this thing fixed.

[Cool Texan]

Cirrhosis,

Can you show me in here where it defines that spending in the bill itself?

http://www.sos.state.or.us/elections.../guide/m28.htm

I dont see it. Sure, what you laid out is exactly what is being TALKED about...but the bill was not written that way. Therefore, 100% of the incremental money could be spent to build a giant ball of yarn in the middle of Salem and there's nothing to stop them.

Sorry, but the spending details were not part of the bill, which is the ONLY thing that will keep the politicians honest on where the money goes. Had they defined clearly in the bill what you outlined, I bet you 28 would have passed....and I bet you I might have voted for it. However, lacking the clear and outlined agreements for the money, no way would I vote for that. Its what I have said all along....28 was never intended to fix any problems.

Introduce a bill which defines where every last cent of the money goes, and how the problems will be addressed and fixed, and I'll vote Yes.

In the meantime, 28 died. Now its time to prepare for what comes next. For you its your caring for your father (I have a lot of respect for you doing this), for our neighbors its not knowing what the impact will be on his job as a teacher, for my wife its not knowing the impact on her company (assisted living centers with Medicaid residents).

There is no looking back...only forward. Lets now put pressure on Ted and company to actually FIX our state and keep the basic civil services we are paying for.

[Bounty Hunter]

I'm personnaly glad the majority of the population did not fall for the media's scare tactics.

The economy slowed down and they tried to keep on spending. It wouldn't have been right.

This is a excellent analogy to a family having to show financial responsibility. Those incoming Oregonians will be paying taxes too, don't worry.

[CATCH AND EAT]

My perspective is different than your's Kyle. I to participated in HS sports programs. I ran cross country and played football. Cross country was cool but I did not excell at all. (short legs and lack of endurance). Football on the otherhand was full of jerks and non-conformists that cared only for themselves and what Cheerleader liked them. Now I am saying that they were all like that but.....many were.

When it comes down to education team work is taught in the classroom and not on the field. Many teachers promote the working in small groups and group projects. If you have kids you know this already.

Parent/parents are also supposed to teach team work at home. Good parents know this too. Good parents and good teachers make a difference in kids lives. Football, choir, drama, all good programs but not necessary to promote a good education. Sports programs are a huge expense and draw on any school system. They have value but they do not make up the complete person that has to function in the real world. :smile:

As for the Arts, I'm a pianist, been soloist,have sung in choirs. My daughter is an exceptional violinist, sings in choir at school and participates in drama theater. My son is a pianist and plays the radio cause he sounds like Kermit the frog when he sings. BUT..... again, they will learn just fine if these programs are cut. I sincerely hope that does not happen.

28 was not the answer we were looking for to solve this delima. We cannot continue to automatically increase a spending budget and then tell tax payers there is going to be a shortfall. D'uh, if the tax base is not there don't increase the spending. [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

[TheRogue]

CT....I did feel a bump in the forces of the cosmos, just then. :grin:

Yes, it's sad about the way that works, that's also why the federal government is currently facing a disaster in the making, with a huge percentage of the federal work force eligible for retirement in the next 5 years, and not much experience coming up behind. Years of hiring freezes and layoffs meant there was no new blood coming down the pipe.....and the workforce just kept getting proportionately older.

Sad.

TR

[TheRogue]

C&E...

Which student looks better to a prospective college...a 4.0, with no extra-curricular activities, or a 3.5, with varsity (or even intramural) sports, band, choir, debate team, etc?

Which student looks better to a prospective employer?? I'm not talking about a burger-flipping job, but a career-path type occupation?? I deal with high school and college students more and more, in private life and recruiting in my profession. I'll take the 3.5, almost every time.

Lessons learned in childhood are just preparation for real life. If a kid doesn't have a chance to learn those lessons, real life is much more difficult.

TR

[skrimmy]

I had a whole page of my own opinions all ready to cut and paste, but decided it would only get one side riled up, and the other side in agreement with me. I'll just stop short and say BERNIE, I like your train of thought and leave it at that. Sorry, I voted no on 28 and it's not worth sharing my own personal reasons, other than it's time to stop the insanity. Keep up the good arguments Bernie. Although, I too will feel the pain, just as the rest of us will. I'm ready for it. This too shall pass.

[WaterDog]

I knew I’d catch some flack for that statement. :smile: Maybe it’s the engineer in me. I’m not going to get on my soap box but will say this. Both of my parents worked when I was in school (4th grade through high school). I did not participate in music (tried piano for a while) nor did I participate in school sponsored sports ( I did karate instead). I do understand what your saying and I know what the studies show. BUT, my biggest beef is that it all starts at home with the parents. Schools and youth programs are not and should not be surrogate parents.

C&E, I take back all the bad things I said about you! :grin:

Kyle, I’m the guy you just described and I have done just fine. On the other hand because of my parents I was doing volunteer work for the Forest Service and ODFW when I was 8 years old. It all begins at home.

Rich

[TheRogue]

Rich...I'm agreeing with what you're saying, it all begins at home. I just don't agree that we can just say it, and it will be so.

I do everything I can for my kids...I'm home today, because the babysitter went up to Vancouver today with her husband, to see him off to Kuwait or Turkey or where-ever he ends up. We participate in all my daughter's after-school activities, and try to make ourselves available for field trips, etc.

But, unfortunately, my wife and I are NOT in the majority in this world. I expect to see about a 50-60% turnout in my daughter's art night tomorrow...if we're lucky. It will probably be less in the upper grades.

Call me a liberal stinkin' Democrat if you want , I just believe that the country is better off with kids having access to anything they want to do at school...debate team, art, woodshop, football, dance, take your pick.....along WITH a quality dose of "readin-writin-rithmatic"....along WITH liberal access to up-to-date computers, software, and textbooks....along WITH instruction by dedicated and well-compensated teachers.

TR

[ 01-29-2003, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: TheRogue ]

[WaterDog]

Kyle, I figured you're involved. :grin: If only others would put in half the effort you and Bernie do we wouldnt even have to debate this.

:smile:

[CATCH AND EAT]

Call me a liberal stinkin' Democrat if you want , I just believe that the country is better off with kids having access to anything they want to do at school...debate team, art, woodshop, football, dance, take your pick.....along WITH a quality dose of "readin-writin-rithmatic"....along WITH liberal access to up-to-date computers, software, and textbooks....along WITH instruction by dedicated and well-compensated teachers. We agree on this Kyle. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] I want those same things too. Even the "liberal" access clause. I am just saying that when times are tough these programs should be the first to be trimed back or temporarily put on the back burner. Sacrifice is unfortunatly necessary sometimes. [/QB]

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">

[Cool Texan]

Cirrhosis-of-the-river,

Not to be an a-hole or anything.....but I assume we've clarified my points on 28 regarding what I supposedly wasnt clear on regarding the bill? I make that assumption based on the fact that there has been no reply to my post and that I was right regarding the lack of defined spending associated with 28. We can disagree on opinions all day long...I'm cool with that. However, know your facts upfront.

That said...lets talk about fish instead... :smile:

[RvW]

The link you provided has the same information I posted Tex.

I think the bottom line is clearly identified in the sentance "these services will be cut if the measure does not pass" is clear enough for me to vote yes to keep them, REGARDLESS of how the money may be divided, at least the services would have the money to continue in one way or another.

My post contained the PROPOSED alocation of funds. Does it really need to be in black and white for you to agree that there needs to be money before the mathemiticians and physicists come in and decide where to spend it?

The measure was vague, and I agree, there is work to be done that our legislature would again put on the back burner for another three years if it had passed. But with the failure of the measure, people in genuine need are put on the back burner, or rather taken off the burner completely, and many of these cases are happening TODAY as we speak.

Sure theres nothing I can do about it now, and I and my father will have to suck it up while the rest of the citizens of oregon sit and wait for another plan to evolve which will be criticized for taking more money out of your pocket.

I cannot clearly define where the money would have gone, but my post above states proposals from the legislature and I feel I must have a little faith in those proposals, especially with the fed pitching in one fifth of the funds needed to keep from stopping these resources, what choice do I have? and why, since you have no apparent need for the services to continue, should you have the same faith that might cost you $12 bucks a month?
Measure 28 might have been a roll of the dice if it had passed for my father, and of course it may have been a $12 per month gamble for you as well, but tell me, is no dice to roll for those in genuine need a fair result? Is the risk too great for you to allow those in need to at least have a chance at continued care?

Being in the presence of a person who is in need allows me to assume the risk of funds finding thier way to other sources than my dad, and countless other people who have no other other means to care for themselves. I'm ashamed it took a face to face encounter, so close to home to convince me that these people need me, and I am happy to help them with $144 dollars of my $50 to $100k per year.
Unfortunately, I cant make that kind of money and help him at the same time. Now I cant make ANY money and help him at the same time, so whos going to do it? I have to go to work and feed myself and my children and pay the bills.

If my father makes it through his recent critical injuries, we are moving back to New Hampshire, the great primary state where the state and federal gov spoils its children and elderly and handicapped with resources to live a comfortable life for the sake of VOTES.
I guess I will have to play thier game, Oregonians dont want to risk $12 bucks a month on thier potentialy corrupt goverment.

[Fish_N_Russ]

I am glad 28 failed. I make less than 20K a year and I am tired of people making 3-4-5 times that making decisions for me.

[RvW]

something tells me you wouldnt make a decision on your own to have $16.61 a YEAR taken from your pay to help the causes listed above anyway, so its a good thing theres people paid to help you along.

Hmm, seems to me a person making less than $20k doesnt have a very bright retirement future, even less so with no state funds to help if you happen to get sick or injured and are forced to retire.
Take all that hard earned money of yours and put it into a high risk investment fund, its your only hope if, god forbid you become unable to work and care for yourself.
Dont be fooled tho, that $16.61 per year you managed to save will take five years to accumilate enough to buy a one week supply of most brand named prescription medications, especially the antidepresants you'll most likely need when your in the same sinking boat as the other emotioanlly and physically challenged people of Oregon today.

But, like many have said here, get an education, so you can get a better job so you can afford an SUV, and the $16.61 of gas to get your butt to work every day.

Ooops, seems the education assistance funds took a hit yesterday too. Oh well, fight for a cause dude, a cause is all you have.

[DF]

No band, art, or sports?
Our band program at St. Helens High is self-supporting. We pay a HUGE activity, instrument rental and uniform fee. The only thing that costs us is the bus fair. This is the only thing in trouble. It’s very likely that we will not be able to participate in league contest, which basically makes us unable to participate in state contest due to cuts.
Elective classes at our high school take up the majority of the building, most of these classes are in serious trouble.
Auto shop, Welding, Woods, and other classes that are valuable in real life are possibly going to get the big ugly axe.
This is all a reality, many of you said this was all only a “scare tactic” I’m sorry but you were very, very wrong.
As of February first 125 OSP officers will be laid off, that includes the 3 officers and OSP office in Columbia County.
I was in the final hiring stage for a summer trooper cadet position; this is also going to be cut.
So I hope when you sitting on the bank watching someone foul hook fish after fish, and when you call OSP and they say to you, I’m sorry but we have no one available, you’ll know why.
Oregon is already the state with the least amount of state police for the population… well it just got worse

[Spooled]

I am comfortable with the outcome of the vote. My 3 kids attend Oregon Public Schools, and don't seem to suffer from how "terrible" things have been and how much worse they are going to get.

Two attend University of Oregon, and are on the Dean's List, and the other attends a public High School with a 3.8 GPA.

Kids do not learn in todays schools without discipline, and schools no longer provide that. We provide it at home. We put a huge emphasis on grades at home, not because it means they are smarter because they get good grades, but because they learn discipline from good grades.

Discipline is what is missing in the work place because of this. If someone shows up to work on time these days, they are hailed as a great employee, no matter how they perform on the job. It is sad.

One of the first things I learned in school was to look both ways before crossing a street. Today, if someone walks in front of your car without looking, it is YOUR fault. New math I guess.

Schools need to get back to basics. I am happy my kids know that a slope of 7/0 is a zero slope, but I think they would be better served to know how to balance a check book and to look both ways before crossing. I have NEVER had them ask me a question on balancing a checkbook, but they have asked me school questions I am quite sure they will use far less in their lives.

Maybe the State doesn't teach students how to balance a checkbook, because they have never done it themselves.

I am sorry for those that will lose either their jobs or some of their pay, but that happens everyday in the public sector, it is called business. Some friends of mine are teachers as well as their spouses. They will get a double whammy because of this. Once again, a basic knowledge "don't put all your eggs in one basket".
The sooner we get back to common sense teaching, the better, in my opinion.

[ 01-29-2003, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Spooled ]

[RvW]

wow, great post, but tell me, if a teacher is going to teach common sense, shouldnt the teacher have enough to chose a more secure job?

aligator, you actually edited your first celebrating post of the defeat by placing MORE dancing party clowns in your post?


What is your purpose? you post nothing here, no words? You must have an explaination for your incredibly perverse cruel nature?

Speak up, I cant wait to hear your juvenile neanderthal explaination for that move.

Its clear to me that you have no doubts that any of your family members will ever need the states help, or maybe they DO, and your happy they wont be getting any?
I wouldnt be surprised after seeing you edit your post that way.

Im seriously ill from this.

[ 01-29-2003, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

[Alligator]

Wow, go fishing for a day and look at the whining!



cotr, my name is Les Smith, what is yours?

[ 01-29-2003, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Alligator ]

[RvW]

my name is kiiiiid rock

Im the anarchist formerly known as J.D.Davis Jr (but you may address me as Mr River)

And your point is?

Im interested in your views about m28. what exactly is it that causes you to rejoice? keeping a few bucks in your pocket each month?

I have to admit, I am under a bit of uncommon stress, so please, if I seem insensitive or emotional about the issue at hand, trust that it is not entirely due to your obvious intentionally antagonizing... blaitantly cold nature.

[ 01-29-2003, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

[Alligator]

cotr, I don't really want to be insensitive on this matter. I work for a living like most Oregon folks. I make 80% of my earnings outside of this state. I still pay the full Oregon income tax on all of my earnings. That's fine. I also pay b&o taxes out of state and that's fine too. I also pay Wash. sales tax when I make perchases in that state, and that's fine too. I also pay my property taxes which are plenty, but that's fine too. Because of my taxes adding up so high I couldn't keep up with paying them. Last year I paid 28 thousand dollars between August and December to get caught up. This was a great success for me. But I still had to get a 10,000 loan to pay my income taxes for that same year.

Cotr, I don't own a jet boat, which I want, I still owe 90% on my home, but I do own my $1500 driftboat and a couple of good fishing rods. Do I care about the people in need? My wife and I donated more that $10,000 last year, if we wouldn't have we wouldn't have needed the loan to pay our taxes, but we wouldn't have it any other way!
NO NEW TAXES!

What I do need is those that are living on the State to get a job and help out a little. Were bleeding here, come and help!

Okay, that's my .10 cents. Ya Know, .02 is to cheap!

I really do care but I'm happy 28 failed.
Les,

[Straydog]

TR,

Once again I agree with you.

I find it odd, I always strive to give my kids more than I had and hope they have better than I did.

I guess not all feel that way.

Waterdog,

The "when I was a kid" thing does not work for me. Little else in life is like "when I was a kid", how is we should expect education to be so?

The one size fit all world of education is part of it's shortcomings. Just because you did fine without athletics or extra curriculars, does not mean others will.

Spooled,

I find it odd that you first attempt to defend the ongoing weakening of our schools by telling how well your kids are doing but later in your post lament that schools "need to get back to basics"..... :whazzup:

[Wood N' Fish]

No matter what--if we are going to require survices from government, we'll pay for em! I don't care if it's from a measure 28, or 2008! The gap will be filled! Enough of this, and become involved with what you want! SOAPBOX PLEASE!----THANK- [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img] YOU

[WaterDog]

Straydog, I was kid not more that 20 years ago. I know things are different these days and for that I 'm sad. The TV was never my baby sitter. I was given responsibilities when I got home from school. Chore’s if you will. What I see is an ever increasing reliance on the “system” to take care of today’s youth. That is not the answer. It ain't their responsibilty. C&E said it best in his pervious posts.

[Spooled]

Straydog, if you go back and read my post, you will see that I was being facetious in my belief that schools are in such dis-repair. They are not lacking money, they are lacking control and values.

Yes, my children are doing well in school, not because the school cares, but because I care.

The 2 at college, know that if their GPA drops below 3.0, they pay their own way. It is called incentive. What incentive do SOME teachers have, when they have a contract, that guarantees their raises and benefits, regardless of the job they perform?

Please note the word "some" in the sentence above. I believe many teachers are very interested in the satisfaction of doing their job well, regardless of their personal monetary gain.

There are teachers, however that are protected by the Teacher's Union, that get the same benefits as these well intentioned teachers, but are in it for their own interests. Why should taxpayers, pay for a sub standard employee? We can't fire them, they are protected.

Why is it, that the first thing schools do when there are cuts to be made, they cut a service like bus service? You don't think they want to make taxpayers "pay" for voting against a measure do you? Of course they do.

It should be clear by this vote, that the public feels schools have enough money, they just need to manage it better.

Schools should do something new and LISTEN to what people are saying with their vote, rather than trying to find a way around their problems.

[Cool Texan]

had a big post for COTR on here...but realized its just not worth it.

we're all in the same boat now....28 failed. time to pick up the pieces and figure out how to move forward.....together as Oregonians.

[ 01-29-2003, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Cool Texan ]

Spooled,
Rural schools are in bad need of repair and replacement. My kids have to learn in "temporary" portables from the late 60's
When I go to Salem and see the palaces they're building it ****es me off!

[RvW]

Tex. you might have proven yourself right, but in no way have you proven me anything.

Im not interested in a fued with you, I want to know what the bright side is for folks like me (who people say need to GET JOBS AND GET OFF STATE AID) when it comes to legitimizing those who NEED the help, and those who free-load, because M28 just cut jobs in the depts who are responsible for finding and weeding out the people who are perfectly capable of working.

My dad is one who is not, come with me friday to Emmanuel in Portland, and ask him yourself.
And then explian to him why I am no longer paid 333 a month to wipe his @$$. cook his food, dispense his meds, and drive him to his doctors appointments because I CANT be there and work at the same time

[TheRogue]

A school should teach kids to read, write, and do math. There should be some history, geography, and science in there as well. That is the basics. They don’t need to do art and sing. They don’t need field trips. They don’t really need sports either. I fully understand the benefits that come from these activities and I know to some students that is what they like but they could do these things on their own outside of school.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I generally agree with you, Waterdog, but not this time. I don't believe you do understand the benefits, at all. I fully believe the arts, music, and more especially sports are an integral part of a child's development. You immediately loose a certain percentage of children (don't have those studies close at hand) when you remove those "unnecessary" things from school life. Sorry, but the reality is with 2-income families, there aren't the parents at home to pick up the slack with those activities.

In high school, I was a member of our swing choir. We traveled to Denver, San Francisco, and Ensenada, Mexico (2x). We raised the about the 2/3 the money for these trips ourselves, the school covered the instructor/piano players salaries, as well as the bus ride to SF and Denver. The school band went on similar trips yearly. If it was not for these activities, there would have been at least 5 kids who would've dropped out of school in band while I was there, and perhaps a few in choir. At least 2/3 of the kids had never been out of Oregon (maybe down to Crescent City, CA), and possibly never would.

And sports?? Come on, there's oodles of studies out there that detail the major benefits of sports. I'm not going to look them up for you, figure you can do that. Sports teaches teamwork, sacrifice, and gives student athletes a chance to be around a mentor-type person (at least that's how I felt about all my highschool coaches), when there's not that type of figure at home.

TR

[Cool Texan]

Whoa wait...hang on. Rogue and I AGREE on something??

Did the earth just stop spinning?!?!?!?



Our neighbor is a teacher....and he was telling us about how it works there....basically like a union. If they need to fire a teacher, they will fire him cuz he's only been there a year, and not fire Gladys who is 70 and teaching for 45 years...even though Gladys makes siginficantly more money than he does....and that is just bass akwards. Run it like a business. Need to trim some fat? Cut the big hitters if their skill sets can be matched. You dont cut the cheap labor.

But aside....keep the arts and sports. They really do help a lot.

[ 01-29-2003, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Cool Texan ]

[Spooled]

Keta, I agree 100% on your last post. Why does the high school my son attends need a Taco Bell inside? When this school was built about 3 years ago, the district had the option of a natural turf field or an Astroturf field for the same price. They chose natural turf, so as not to upstage the other schools in the district. 1 year later, the school, not the district, is asking parents to donate money to replace the natural turf with Astroturf. Huh?

The schools we build should be "cookie cutter" designs, whether they are built in Klamath Falls or Lake Oswego. This would save on design costs as well as building costs.

It would also allow your children the same learning environment as mine, which I am all for. I would gladly give up some of the lavishnous of the school my son attends to allow your children a more modern facility. I am sure my son would learn just as well in a less luxurious environment, as long as it had THE BASICS. Unfortunatley, that is not up to me.

My children went to a grade school that used portable buildings, not because it was old, but because everyone wanted their children to attend this particular school. We had overcrowding from the parents of out of area kids, somehow working the system, to get their kids to the school. If all facilities were made more equal, I don't believe this would have occurred.

Another part of the equation that is being totally missed by all in this discussion, is previous school bonds and levies. I am fortunate in some ways, that I live in the Beaverton School District. We have passed bonds and levies in the past (which are still being paid on my property taxes) to build new schools and to hire teachers. I therefore have a higher tax burden being from this district than most. Had I not had these existing bonds and levies (taxes), I may have voted differently.

The bad thing about the levies, is they do nothing for OREGON schools, but do benefit BEAVERTON schools. Ban the levies and I will gladly vote for taxes which help all schools in Oregon equally.

I am in no way happy about the way things turned out for rural Oregon in this recent election. Obviously, Straydog's, Keta's and other families in ruarl Oregon are paying a higher price, than Metro area families, as they do not have the additional money from previous levies that we do. We need to fix a broken system.

[ 01-30-2003, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Spooled ]

[Kruechief]

Spooled [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Krue

[Kruechief]

Spooled,

I am a union employee (well was ) and it is up to the ADMINISTRTORS to get rid of poor performing employees. It is tough but not impossible. However, it requires WORK and ACCOUNTABILITY both of which are in short supply in our government.

Krue

[WaterDog]

Spooled [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Question. how much was spent on the new high school in West Union?

[Straydog]

Spooled,

While I appreciate the thought and what I perceive as your intent, "cookiecutter schools" is not real practical.

Different designs for different geographic regions are needed.

I do however agree with the premise that there do not need to be college like campuses such as you are said to have in Beaverton and such as what was built in the Grants Pass CITY School Dist. (we have two districts down here which is also confusing..........)

Our county Dist. finally, after a ton of hard work by a lot of good people, passed it's first bond election in 25 years so that we could build one new school and remodel or repair 12 others. The amount of our bond was just about the same as what GP spent on their one highschool.

Further, it is, in my mind, a myth that bad teachers cannot be gotten rid of. I have helped get rid or at least demote a ffew teachers and administrators in my 17+ year involvment with our district. Yes, it takes a lot of time commitment, work and dedication but then we get back to the responsible vs. irresponsible parent thing. I have trouble agreeing our kids should suffer because their parents are irresponsible. That attitude will merely produce more irresponible adults out of today's neglected children.

No, it may not be my responsiblity to worry about other people's kids but I can't help it. I can't hold them responsible for things they can not control.

[ 01-30-2003, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Try to pass a school bond with as many retired people as we have in Klamath County :depressed:

[Kruechief]

Trust me, my daughter's school, its administration and especially the principal does not like seeing the kruechief darken their office doors!

I have personally had impact on one teacher's reviews and have thankfully seen a turn around in this snag's "dedication".

I feel sad for the kid's who have parents that either do not have the time or do not care enough to fight and advocate for the kids.

Krue

[Straydog]

Right on Krue! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

You bring up a good point............I too have had a hand in helping make a bad teacher a better teacher.

There is actually more satisfaction in that than sending them packing! (well, usually anyway! :grin: )

It is true that the squeeky wheel gets the attention, we just need more parents to squeek. Hell, we need more parents to pay attention and recognize when something or someone needs greased!

krue,
We need to step on the slugs and support the dedicated teachers (and admin). Unfortunatly the bad always stands out more than the good.