I hope you realize (measure 28)

[blackdog]

I truly hope that all of you Measure 28 supporters realize that this "temporary" tax increase won't just begin following the election, should it pass. The truth is, the tax will be retroactive to last January. From the measure itself "The increases apply to tax years beginning on or after January 1, 2002, and before January 1, 2005."

I will be needing a loan from some of you that think this is a good idea and have the money to pay for this. Hard times being that they are, I really don't have the extra cash to pay for more taxes this year and certainly not last year.

Just another reason to VOTE NO on 28!

[TheRogue]

Yeah, I'll loan you the money if it passes, as long as you pick up the state services cut if it does not. :whazzup: :shocked: :whazzup:

[blackdog]

I suppose you honestly think there is no room to cut any of our state services. Right now they're running at maximum efficiency. Yeah right! And please, don't come back with the arguement about schools and police services being cut. Legislative leaders (including the governor) admit there are ways to cut the budget without severly hurting schools, police, or the elderly. There's a reason Oregon would have the highest income tax in the country with this tax - our legislators have a problem with spending! Continuing to feed this problem isn't the solution.

[TheRogue]

There's a reason Oregon would have the highest income tax in the country with this tax

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Puhlease....we don't have a sales tax here, so don't use that argument.

[blackdog]

OK, ignore that statement. What about the other part?

[TheRogue]

More than 75% of the legislature AND the governor are pushing to let the cuts stand as they are if Measure 28 does not pass, and just get to work on the next 2 year budget. If it comes to that, I agree...it's been drug out long enough.

I don't believe there's much "waste" inside the specific programs and departments themselves, but I do believe there's some whole programs and/or departments which may need to be completely eliminated.

My .02

TR

[Cool Texan]

Blackdog...you are absolutely correct. Even the Republicans want to readdress the budget if/when 28 fails...but Ted wants to keep it without change.

The system is broken...make them fix it, dont keep feeding it.

Rogue will tell you why you should pass it...but I dont think he says much about how to fix the problem. Not taking a shot at ya Rogue, just saying that the problems are bigger than 28...and 28 is just bad business.

[TheRogue]

CT....it's not the majority of the Republicans in Congress that want the opportunity to revisit the Measure 28 cuts, it's a small group. Recent articles in the Oregonian spell that out pretty well.

Besides, it was the Republicans who were in charge of the legislature that put this band-aid before us voters, was it not?? And if you say it was done, hoping it wouldn't pass, isn't that quite a waste of time and money that we've been going through??

Sorry, I don't believe that the time to make significant changes to the way government operates is in the last few months of it's budget cycle. Give the legislature a chance to hash it out for the 03-04-05 budget process.....Don't worry about the money showing up to prop it back up......We certainly won't have a huge economic upswing across the country with this administration at the helm.

TR

[ 01-22-2003, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: TheRogue ]

[lost_sailor]

Originally posted by blackdog:
I suppose you honestly think there is no room to cut any of our state services. Right now they're running at maximum efficiency. Yeah right!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">If you know some SPECIFICS ... please share.

[Cool Texan]

You are all right...I will vote on 28. Why force people to be mean, and to have spines in their jobs? Thats not nice. I'll just join the other lemmings....I'll just roll over and open my wallet rather than make a stand and actually force something to happen for the good...the long term good. Its just easier that way.


(sarcasm...still voting no on 28, cuz its the only way anything will happen)

[Snag]

Several hundred funded but unfilled state jobs......Sole proprietor of distilled spirits in the state and still needs tax funding....Undocumented, illegal, transient, seasonal whatever-you-want-to-call-them workers on the health plan....No accountabilty for welfare recipients, no audits to make sure the recipients still need the assistance.....unabated fleet purchases....$200,000 consultants so lottery managers can learn dispute resolution......$16 billion + PERS deficit...etc, etc, ad nauseum. Please......schools and public safety are ALWAYS trotted out by the state to scare people into voting for new taxes.

The Repulicans have failed to stand behind the core belief of limited government lower taxes and the Democrats have failed to realize that government is not, and can not, be the engine of economic recovery and throwing $ at a problem is not always the solution. Both parties failed to uphold their responsibilities.

Oregon's tax/budget structure is a monster that we cannot afford to feed anymore. 28 will hurt EVERYBODY, I make no illusion about that, but its time to FORCE a change. Its time to make our elected officials confront and tame this monster they they (with the help of many voters) have created. We MUST have a hard look at all our spending and prioritize. We will all have programs we favor take a hit, or be eliminated altogether. We all must share in the pain of this process.

P.S. Lets all remember that good people can disagree, and still remain friends.

[ 01-22-2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Snag ]

[Sea Nymph]

fix the problem instead of going around it. it makes me sick when people try to make others think this is the only way.

LESS GOVERNMENT!!!

LESS TAXES!!!

LESS GOVERNMENT!!!

LESS TAXES!

If this state would quit wasting so much of mine and your money, it wouldn't need more.

[Boedy]

Originally posted by Snag:
Several hundred funded but unfilled state jobs......Sole proprietor of distilled spirits in the state and still needs tax funding....Undocumented, illegal, transient, seasonal whatever-you-want-to-call-them workers on the health plan....No accountabilty for welfare recipients, no audits to make sure the recipients still need the assistance.....unabated fleet purchases....$200,000 consultants so lottery managers can learn dispute resolution......$16 billion + PERS deficit...etc, etc, ad nauseum. Please......schools and public safety are ALWAYS trotted out by the state to scare people into voting for new taxes.

The Repulicans have failed to stand behind the core belief of limited government lower taxes and the Democrats have failed to realize that government is not, and can not, be the engine of economic recovery and throwing $ at a problem is not always the solution. Both parties failed to uphold their responsibilities.

Oregon's tax/budget structure is a monster that we cannot afford to feed anymore. 28 will hurt EVERYBODY, I make no illusion about that, but its time to FORCE a change. Its time to make our elected officials confront and tame this monster they they (with the help of many voters) have created. We MUST have a hard look at all our spending and prioritize. We will all have programs we favor take a hit, or be eliminated altogether. We all must share in the pain of this process.

P.S. Lets all remember that good people can disagree, and still remain friends.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">What he said [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[blackdog]

Snag, thanks for providing some of the specifics that were being asked for. I agree completely with what you said.

On a lighter side, however, I can't believe that I share the same view as someone whose avatar would sport that ridiculous puke green and yellow flag (Boedy) ! :grin:

NO on 28 (and Go Beavs!)

[lost_sailor]

So what is your solution?

"Several hundred funded but unfilled state jobs....."

Cut the funding, I guess.

"Sole proprietor of distilled spirits in the state and still needs tax funding..."

Sell tequila at Safeway, I'm down with that!

".Undocumented, illegal, transient, seasonal whatever-you-want-to-call-them workers on the health plan..."

Let 'em die.

".No accountabilty for welfare recipients, no audits to make sure the recipients still need the assistance..."

Yeah, I hear auditors work for free.

".unabated fleet purchases....$200,000"

Walking is good exercise. Service may be slow.

"consultants so lottery managers can learn dispute resolution...."

OK, I suspect the lottery is out of hand - but they're rakin' in some serious bucks for other programs.

"..$16 billion + PERS deficit.."
Many solutions already proposed. And when they're done, any public employees with any skill at all will be looking for other jobs, I guess that solves your problems?

[Cool Texan]

Lost Sailor.... I just posted this on another thread for Rogue...but its your turn:

People throw out suggestions on how to fix Oregons problems, you agree on some, shoot others down. Fine.

What do YOU propose the state of Oregon do to FIX this problem that we're in? 28 can not be part of your answer, as it is not a FIX. Please provide in detail how you would address the problems and fix them.

[lost_sailor]

I don't claim to know! But I get tired of people demanding to "cut government waste" without pointing to a line item in a budget. State executives and our reps are trying constantly to cut waste - how come they can't do it ??

I suppose I'd close entire agencies. (All those "human services" that use my money to bail out helpless losers) Trade income tax for sales tax.

And of course pass the Cannabis Tax Act =====~~~

[Boedy]

LS do you work for the state ?

[Cool Texan]

Sailor...so you have nothing to contribute towards a solution, but feel its then ok to criticize the ideas of others? Its like not voting but then complaining about the president. Give me a break. If you're going to sit on the sidelines, sit there quietly...the rest of us have ideas of how to fix things.

[Bigdog]

Sweet! NO! NO! NO! on 28. Got to say we should have a poll. Looks like were ahead in this thread.

[24 on/ 48 off]

What I can't figure out is why so many people equate Measure 28 and PERS.

One is not the blame for the other..

--spud-- :smile:

Lay off the top 15% of all state employees and leave the productive people working. i have worked in government and I had 6 layers of supervision over me and I only had 4 people working for me. When they made the cuts I lost my workers but not my bosses Then they wanted to know why nothing was getting fixed :depressed:

[Cool Texan]

Good point Keta.

I'll listen any day to someone who is willing to offer suggestions on how to fix problems. The people who throw rocks from behind walls though, they fall on deaf ears. I guess its just easier to complain than to actually get off your butt and do something about it.

[TheRogue]

CT...have you called your legislator, or your governor with your ideas?? I have, I've sent 2 e-mails in the last week to Senator George (like it will do any good). I plan on leaving a phone message today, once again stating my support for hatcheries, and the value they are to Oregon's economy.

Just wondering.....

TR

[Snag]

24 on/48 off, You are correct. The PERS deficit is not directly related to M28 or the budget crisis per se. But it is an example of irresponsible budget practices and oversight. It is another monster that needs to be tamed. (not eliminated, just fixed. I don't believe in screwing fellow public employees retirements that they had been promised)

And Lost Sailor, to start with, a line by line examination of the budget casting a critical eye at the many, many funded programs that are nice, but not essential functions of Gov't. We must be willing to defund non-essential programs. Take the funded monies for unfilled positions and give it to necesary programs. When our economy recovers, re-fund and hire for those jobs.

Regarding the illegal ailiens on the health plan, I conceed that the Oregon has little to do with the porocity of our international borders, but for crying out loud, what is wrong with making documentaion of immigration status a pre-requisite? I'm not anti-immigrant, not anti-migrant worker, I'm just anti-illegal alien. All recipients of public welfare should be accountable for how the funds are used and should have to show need on a regular basis. Thats called responsible oversight.

Give me the sole proprietorship of distilled spirits in Oregon. I guarantee you I won't need public funds to make a big fat profit. The state has no right being in the liquor retailing business. Regulation taxation and enforcement, yes, selling, no.

I could go on, but why? Clearly you see nothing in the state government that can or should be cut or reduced. During lean times citizens and business must cut back and adjust to lower income. The State should be no different.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

The problem with OR. is that were trying to be like california, with out the massive tax base. We need a smaller goverment here, The state is the biggest employer in OR. If we raise taxes, what businesses are going to want to move here? Go Figure

[garyk]

The 'tax burden' statistic is completely mis-represented.

Currently, ORegon's overall tax burden puts us in 47th place amongst the nation.

When presented with this fact, Republican Beyerly (Mollala) replied with "Only three more to go".

Oh boy, Mississipi of the NorthWest here we come. :depressed:

[TheRogue]

The 'tax burden' statistic is completely mis-represented.

Currently, ORegon's overall tax burden puts us in 47th place amongst the nation.

When presented with this fact, Republican Beyerly (Mollala) replied with "Only three more to go".

Oh boy, Mississipi of the NorthWest here we come.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Exactly correct. People whine about income taxes.....and yes, we are 47th overall in total tax burden per person.

Anyone see todays Oregonian's list of tax breaks, and how much money is involved?? You can bet those tax breaks will be looked at. Maybe get rid of a few, maybe add some that result in some immediate stimulus.

TR

[Bounty Hunter]

I cast my no vote.

[SandySteel]

Do you want to come to my school and point out the waste we are supposed to cut? Come on down! It's easy to say "cut the waste" without specifics. We have already lost outdoor school and our technology coordinator. Were those waste?

I also want to know what the last temporary tax out there became permanent. Can you name one?

Eric

Income tax

[Kruechief]

Eric,

In California a "temp" tax was initiated to pay for the damage done during the 1989 game 3 all California World Series.

Never was been taken back.

Krue

[TheRogue]

Please review Measure 28. I have. It expires in 2 years. To continue any farther, it would have to be voted on again, or passed by 60% of the legislature, in which case it would still be subject to referendum.

Sorry, the line about "no tax is temporary" is, quite frankly, a line of crap.

Methinks I hear a tone of desperation in the anti-tax/anti-government crowd.

Anyone notice Jerry Dove's post concerning hatchery funding?? The commitee would not hear public input about license/fee increases, because it looked like a "tax". What does that tell you about who's on the committe, when the vast majority of the affected people are SUPPORTING it!!

TR

[pole bender]

My NO vote went in also. There are ways to cut waste in the government if the officials really look. [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] Why can't they drive their own cars instead of using tax payers money on buying cars for them to use. Speaking of schools I can tell you that there is plenty of waste in the upper adminstration area. Why do the superintents make so much money? If budgets are so tight why did they receive such high raises? There are assistants for the assistants just to assist one person. They built a new adminstration building in the district I live in (might I say slipping it by the tax payers) and say it didn't cost the tax payers anything, well gee where did it come from? The buildings they had were good enough, the money they spent on their new building could have gone into the schools. As for Outdoor school and field trips (in the district I live in) the pta's or ptc's and fund raisers paid for them not the tax payers, so I wish they would quit using them. I really could continue on more waste but It just irritates me to think about it.

[TheRogue]

pole bender....

Bad form to try and slip in on a discussion with your first post, without going to the main board for a story!!! Especially bad when weighing in on a topic as touchy as this one.

TR

[SandySteel]

Kruechief.... I meant a temporary tax here in Oregon. I can name several temp. taxes here in Oregon that expired when they were supposed to. That is unless you think that we are now living in California.

As far as cutting government it is easy to say... but hard to do because once you start looking you realize that government is really people and things you want and need. Hatcheries, schools, police, fire, roads, building inspection (can you say Coos Bay firefighters?) who's ox are you going to gore.

If you start saying "its in the administration" it is a double edged sword. The pool of candidates for the job is small. Thus the cost is high. Do you want an administrator who will take less pay? It's a snake pit especially here in Oregon. Why can't we find a candidate for Portland? Because all of the candidates realize that the people of this state are not supporting schools financially but are expecting world class quality. True there is some top heavy things that happen in school districts but the greatest percentage of the budget goes to pay for one thing... teachers. Of course as some here say just lay off the less productive ones right?

By the way... the taxpayers did pay for Outdoor school. It is why it is now gone in Gresham. Tell me why do we make kids into little peddlers to pay for a quality part of their education for things like field trips?

I can't believe how self focused and selfish some people are. For the last 3 years everyone got back about $200 from the state. Yet when it needs to go the other way you can't think of the big picture. This would cost you about $10 a month. I know most of you would sneeze at this if you were spending it on bait.

Government is not "them" it is "us". You are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

It looks like it is failing as I am writing this. I hope you enjoy holding onto you coffee money but losing your police coverage or shorting your kid's school year.

I moved here from Idaho 15 years ago because I felt that this state supported education. Looks like it is time to move. If this is the kind of state you want you can have it.

You might feel that I feel this way out of self interest. I am going to lose some money by losing days but I am mostly upset that the people of this state would willingly do this to their kids and their communities.

[Alligator]

No More Taxes!

Not for schools, Not for roads, Not for hatcheries, Not for more services!

As the people of Oregon said tonight, No more taxes.

By the way, How much did it cost to run this election in an effort for the State to gain more of our hard earned money? A million? more? I would like to see that money subtracted from the people that put 28 on the ballot. The money could have bought a lot of school books, maybe paid a few more teachers wages or even kept some schools open a few more days. Oh, but they will try again, and again