Illegal Guide Cited - Boat and Gear Seized

nofishon2day · 02-26-2004, 05:43 AM

The Columbian News this morning has a story of a local ex-guide being cited for no guides license, and he had his boat and fishing gear taken away. Maybe this will have some impact on some of the illegal guiding going on. Maybe not???

02-26-2004, 05:45 AM

[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

finclipped · 02-26-2004, 05:50 AM

Well who was it?

SPAZZ · 02-26-2004, 06:29 AM

WHERE IS THE STORY?

steelymann · 02-26-2004, 06:51 AM

According to the paper, it's Harvey Brunt from Rip Some Lips guide service. He lost his Alumaweld drift boat, trailer, 8 rods and reels, and faces a $2,000 fine. Thats gotta hurt! Charged an agent $150 for a trip down the Kalama.

~steelymann~

RiverRogue · 02-26-2004, 06:59 AM

Interesting, Harvey is still listed as one of the Team GI Joes Guides. I have met him and spoke with him a number of times. Nice enough guy. Is it confirmed that was why they confiscated his gear?

spooner · 02-26-2004, 07:03 AM

Silver Eagle · 02-26-2004, 07:08 AM

If we ask for Gas Money this year, considering the price of gas, will that make all of us Guides?

Hoosier Daddy · 02-26-2004, 07:31 AM

probably

SalmonSeason · 02-26-2004, 07:49 AM

Don't ask for gas money When it's expected that's when you're "considered" guiding. But the friends I have are always generous in helping out. Can not get into trouble when they are helping out and there is no "expectation"

nofishon2day · 02-26-2004, 07:53 AM

Sharing Expenses?

As I read the article in the paper on this, I don't see anything about anyone sharing expenses and then being cited. Sounds like the officers were doing their job, and targeting someone who wasn't properly licensed to me. I share expenses every time I go fishing with someone. I've never had a problem and from what I've learned about this subject, I never will as long as I'm honest about my intentions. The judge ultimately has the final say if there is anything questionable about it.

Cowlitz Kidd · 02-26-2004, 07:56 AM

If you don't pay the money your not a guide.I don't care who's team your on.Was he insured? So sorry Charlie. [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

Seefood Man · 02-26-2004, 08:08 AM

I can't find the story on their site. Any links?

Hogmaster · 02-26-2004, 08:21 AM

As far as the issue of sharing expenses like gas money, this topic came up last year and there were a number of discussions on it.

The following is with regard to Oregon statutes, but I believe WA is essentially the same. I posted this within a thread:

Quote:

OK, this morning I called the OSMB and spoke with:

Diana Ortega
Outfitter/Guide Charter Coordinator
Diana.Ortega@state.or.us
(503) 373-1405 ext. 225
PO BOX 14145
Salem, OR 97309

Diana was very cordial (yes familiar with ifish!) and explained the state law.

If you are accepting money in excess of the expenses associated with a trip, in other words you are being compensated, then you are acting as a guide and are subject to the requirements of guiding (like insurance and certifications).

However, there is a specific provision IN THE STATE LAW that exempts "expense sharing" from being considered compensation.

Diana was kind enough to send me the section of law that pertains. If anyone would like a copy in it's entirety email me and I will forward it on to you.

But here are the specific provisions in the law (Oregon Revised Statutes):

ORS 704.010 (7) (b)
(7) Outfitting and guiding services are not offered or provided for compensation or pecuniary gain if:
(b) No money or other remuneration is in any manner paid or collected except as a sharing by trip participants of the costs or expenses for the trip.

And the Administrative Rules:

OAR 250-016-0001 (8) (b)
(8) Outfitting and guiding services are not offered or provided for compensation or pecuniary gain if:
(a) No individual receives any dues, fees, salary, commission, bonus, tip, compensation, equipment, materials, livestock, supplies, rental payment, amortization payment, depreciation payment, or other financial gain; and
(b) No money or other remuneration is in any manner paid or collected except as a sharing by trip participants of the costs or expenses for the trip.

So, collecting expenses is OK, buying lunch is OK, "renting a rod" isn't nor is collecting money far in excess of the cost of the trip.

Hope this clears it up on this topic!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Here is the whole thread if you care to look:

Sharing Expenses is not guiding

Some guides apparently don't keep their licensing up due to costs, insurance, violations, etc... Nice guy or not, if he was not licensed but acting in the capacity, well, shame on him. It is a disservice to his industry to not be properly licensed...

Siwash · 02-26-2004, 08:45 AM

Good post, Hogmaster, sums it all up really well. Not much else to say after that.

nofishon2day · 02-26-2004, 03:12 PM

As a client, looking for current valid decals and a valid guide license, as someone suggested earlier might be the way to go. Or ask when you hire your guide if those items are available upon request.

RiverRogue · 02-26-2004, 03:23 PM

Oregon guides are supposed to carry on their person a little wallet size plastic laminated ID card with the state # and on it it states what the guide is actually licensed for, (white water rafting, back-country, drop-camps, etc).

Fish Hawg · 02-26-2004, 03:49 PM

[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

1 Smart Fish · 02-26-2004, 03:52 PM

I have been out with Harvey about 4 years ago in his sled lots of fish great guy. Sorry to hear the bad news. :depressed:

Jennie@ifish · 02-26-2004, 03:55 PM

I don't know this guide, but I'm not fond of making sport of anyone's misfortune, deserved, or otherwise.
It's not going to happen on ifish.
I am glad our officers are at work and patrolling these situations for our safety and to uphold our laws.
Let's keep the jabbing to ourselves.
I am deleting the type of posts that might hurt someone further.

Jen

[ 02-26-2004, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

MasterCaster · 02-26-2004, 04:00 PM

Good news that they are cracking down and busting the guys who are cheating everyone. Especially the guides that pay their dues and deserve to be in the business.

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[ 02-26-2004, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: MasterCaster ]

Amerman · 02-26-2004, 05:17 PM

As a member of the Team GI Joes Quality Guide Service I will tell you that GI Joes checks everything and also requires us to carry extra insurance above state requirements to protect our clinets. Each year we are required to submit out guide's licence and insurances. We did this last month. I talked to the head of the program today, and he said this guide had not been renewed this year because he failed to submit a license. The web site has not yet been updated, but I assure you Gi Joes is aware of this and does not condone illegal guiding.

Scott Amerman Team GI Joes.

brshooter · 02-26-2004, 05:21 PM

Is this the same "Harvey" that is always out cooking breakfast for his clients? If it is, I have fished along side him a number of times. Very friendly and knows how to catch fish.
It's too bad that some don't want to play by the rules.

[ 02-26-2004, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: brshooter ]

1 Smart Fish · 02-26-2004, 05:45 PM

BRSHOOTER,

Yes this is the guide you are talking about. He is a great guy to fish with and one of the better ones at it.

blacktail519 · 02-26-2004, 05:52 PM

I can understand that some guides are getting frustrated with excessive restrictions, And limited..... and at times unknown seasons, But rules are rules, and we must abide by them.

ctflyfish · 02-26-2004, 06:27 PM

There is another issue here. If a person is guiding without a license, then he is undoubtedly doing so with out liability insurance. If he is involved in a boating accident this could result in his client's wife becoming a poor widow.

Silver Eagle · 02-26-2004, 07:21 PM

Guys maybe we should wait and hear all the facts, we don't really know squat, maybe someone should post something from either the horses mouth or the other side, lets not name names without some validity, that usually the fight I get into with the grandkids, he said she said etc.....maybe someone with the inside scoop could post......Please.............Ray

Fishbone · 02-26-2004, 08:20 PM

Article

http://www.columbian.com/02262004/sports/121006.html

IFISH4U · 02-26-2004, 08:51 PM

That really sucks for him.

GOT2FISH · 02-26-2004, 10:01 PM

KEY WORDS [If found Guilty]

Twitchs_Tackle · 02-26-2004, 10:23 PM

I don't think the "If found guilty" part is going to be much to worry about. Its one thing in a heresay case, but not when you take an undercover officer along during the offense. That one is going to stick...

SalmonSeason · 02-26-2004, 11:13 PM

They don't (Game Enforcement) seize property and charge someone if the guy did not do something illegal. The newspaper article even mentions he did not have a license in 2003 and 2004
[img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]
But it does seem stiff seizing the guys equipment
It's not a poaching deal and the cops probably caught fish

Hoosier Daddy · 02-27-2004, 06:56 AM

Hmm, I don't consider someone breaking the law "misfortune". I get the point, but if you do the crime, do the time. That's not misfortune, that's a mistake. 180$ annual license compared to 150$ per trip charged is a ridiculously small cost of doing business.

dawhunt · 02-27-2004, 07:38 AM

Harvey is a very good friend of mine.I talked to him on the phone yesterday he told me the whole story what makes this even worse is that his guide Lis. came in the mail three days after he was ticketed :depressed: ,He also told me this person called him three times in 12 hrs begging him to take him and his bud fishing said his buddy was from out of state and really wanted to go fishing
before he left for home.I told Harvey he needs to learn how to say NO !!!,He's got a lawyer I'm curious as to how this will end.Almost sounds like entrapment :whazzup:
Bob

dawhunt · 02-27-2004, 08:11 AM

Oh Yeah just to set the record right,Harvey DID have his guide lis. for 2003 !!!!he doesn't know where the paper got the wrong info.
Bob

Fish Hawg · 02-27-2004, 09:02 AM

But we are in 2004 [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

FishinMission · 02-27-2004, 09:27 AM

If you want to get your license right away...you can take the hour and a half or two hour drive to Olympia, and walk out of the WDFW office with it in your hand. I know....I did.

Mark

Silver Hilton · 02-27-2004, 09:36 AM

So y'all are ready to string a guy up because he doesn't have a current license. From what I can see, the people who know the guy say he's a nice guy and a good citizen. He's not accused of poaching, fish mutilation, sex crimes, or littering. He just doesn't have a piece of paper from the government, and it seems the consensus is, take his boat and gear. That seems a bit extreme to me.

It was stupid of him, but geez, you guys ever think about showing a little compassion and forgiveness? Or is that just for sundays in the building with the pointy top?

corrirod · 02-27-2004, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Almost sounds like entrapment

Of course it is. "Entrapment" = "Get Caught"

It's unfortunate he'll lose so much, however he knew what the penalties involved were before he got caught. I'm sure it's one of those "never thought it could happen to me" deals.

Hoosier Daddy · 02-27-2004, 10:22 AM

OK, if he had his guide license in 03 and this happened because his new one hadn't shown up yet, I'll cut him some slack. Although he shouldn't have been out without it anyway.

And I'm sorry, I don't take kindly to people fishing without licenses. Forgiveness doesn't enter into it. To me, it's the same as stealing from the rest of us. No one gets to bend the rules more than the rest of us, no matter how nice they are. Period.

SalmonSeason · 02-27-2004, 02:57 PM

He's an adult and made an adult decision to charge someone when he did not have the license.

I've heard he's a nice guy and he told you (Dawhunt) he decided to take someone out and charged them $$
He made a decision and has to deal with it now...Good Luck Harvey

SalmonSeason · 02-27-2004, 03:00 PM

It is stiff to seize the equipment, but when you get a license you know the rules and have to accept the consequences when you're in the wrong.
I forgive and have compassion. He obviously thinks he has done nothing wrong and decided to get a lawyer. So I say again Good Luck Harvey

frankenfish · 02-27-2004, 07:00 PM

Where are the fish and game officers when all the poaching is going on. I have seen many instances of "fishermen" keeping native fish and keeping more than their limit. Seems there never is anyone out there to catch them. I have called and reported this on several occasions. Where are enforcement officers when inconsiderate people use the rivers and banks as their garbage cans? Gosh, if the license was in the mail, and the F and G officers called him to purposely try to induce him to take them, it seems they could have better spent their time in another capacity.

GOT2FISH · 02-27-2004, 07:09 PM

OK so we see the paper made a mistake he has a lawyer once agian I think some folks are comin down kinda hard here. There could be other info were not privy to, I dont know the man and all i can say is UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY belive it or not Cops make mistakes!

Kentucky Hog Hunter · 02-27-2004, 08:37 PM

Glad to see the Washington Federalies cracking down on this activity... I am sure this type of activity makes it hard on all those guide who are doing this business by the book...

The law is the law and we must enforce it or the outlaws will keep breaking it...

esfshnhnt · 02-27-2004, 09:26 PM

thats the columbian for ya!! they seem to print what they want how they want. [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] personally i dont think much of the columbian.

Private-Aye-Fish · 02-27-2004, 09:56 PM

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation.

-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

No Wishin Just Fishin · 02-27-2004, 10:20 PM

I have knowm Harvey since He started fishing over 15 yrs ago. He has been thru it all Hip surgery divorce, and a little sick at times. One thing has always remained constant, His smile, his willingness to share, and His ability to catch fish. Harvey is and will always be a good guide. With the ticket in the mail what are they doing with the entrapment thing??/ I for one will wait and see as i stand by my friend and fellow guide.

N7754H · 02-28-2004, 06:40 AM

Listen folks it is 100% acceptable to share expenses on a boat the only time it turns into guiding is if you charge for the fish. This is a free country still I think?

Joe Schwab · 02-28-2004, 07:04 AM

There are some awfully judgemental people out here. I know Harvey well and he has always conformed to the requirements. Anyone who has had to deal with licensing agencies knows that licenses can be slow in coming. If he indeed paid for the ticket and the ticket is "in the mail", what's the beef?

As far as the enforcement goes, the officer in question could have been very well following procedures and not have had the information Harvey Had. It happens all the time.

Last year at Nehalem Harvey was cited for no guides license and came to find that he had been suspended for no filing some paperwork. It was a PAPER WORK glitch and two days later he was back on the water as legal as ever. The reason for licensing guides is to protect the public. Insurance does not lapse just because you get a citation. Now a conviction is a whole different matter.

Just because someone gets a citation does not brand him a "criminal". I have seen it from both sides so I think I know what I'm talking about. Talking about it is fine but let's hold judgement at least until the courts have their say.

drhall99 · 02-28-2004, 07:34 AM

I met Harvey last year. He took the time to give me some tips that helped out alot. Limited that day, thanks to his advice. This was free of charge while launching. He's a good guy, regardless of the outcome of his current problems. Not every lawbreaker (if he actually is one) is a bad person. There is no reason to kick a guy when he's already down. Judge not, lest thee be judged.

Doug

[ 02-28-2004, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: drhall99 ]

TYEE-FISHER · 02-28-2004, 07:58 AM

I don't know. Three million illegal immagrants running around, terrorism, gang violence, meth-labs ect...and sting operations for fishing? I get the just of it...the laws the law, but to drag this guy through the coals?

Kentucky Hog Hunter · 02-28-2004, 08:11 AM

OK,

It sounds to me in this situation that due process needs to run its course...

If Harvey indeed is in a situation where he can prove that he is innocent then he should have many apologies coming...

My previous post was not aimed at a specific individual, and I am glad because from the sounds of the replies here he is quite a nice gentleman but my comments were directed more twords the enforcement of cracking down on illegal guids and I still say that I am happy to see this happening for all those guides who do live within the law...I never took a shot at this individual if you go back and read my 1st post.

As for Harvey, he is due his day in court...

[ 02-28-2004, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Kentucky Hog Hunter ]

SalmonSeason · 02-28-2004, 08:36 AM

I feel I have to clarify my earlier comments and express my point of view in regards to some earlier comments made by fellow IFISHers.

1.) I don't know Harvey-Sounds like a great person, but sounds like he made a mistake. I don't agree with all the laws, but we have to live by them or vote to change 'em.

2.) He's allowed his day in court and hopefully it is a paper error and he gets squared away if in fact it is an error. I know/We all know Gov't agencies can and do make mistakes

3.) Law Enforcement has different groups (i.e.) Fish and Game, DUII Task Force, Drug Teams, SWAT, etc..The game enforcement obviously works F&G. The other facets work their areas. F&G began to "work" Harvey for a reason, unknown why or it just so happened to be going through the area guides. I'm just glad to see enforcement of this and we only hear these kinds of situations because he is a guide.

4.) We all wonder where the "cop" is when we need 'em, but usually don't want them there when it has an effect on ourself or our friends.

Good Luck to Harvey and you are innocent until proven guilty.

Twitchs_Tackle · 02-28-2004, 09:13 AM

Well said salmonseason. I agree that in regards to this post, things need to be kept a little civil and be sure to follow AUP! The situation can be discussed, be we don't need to flame anyone. Mistakes do happen. Blatant disregard does happen. Law Enforcement does always have facts straight. NEWSPAPERS *believe it or not* do not always have their facts straight... and the list goes on.
Obviously something happend to the degree that law enforcement justified taking the actions that they did. This is America, Harvey will have his chance to defend himself and get things worked out. If it was only a mistake, things will hopefully get all squared away. If it was a true, blatant, offense, then we can all learn from it... both to be sure to be licensed, and that law enforcent is out there working for us to make sure everyone is one the same page!

If a friend of mine was caught doing something illegal, I would be mad, I would try to defend them, etc., but I would also appreciate the fact that law enforcement took the effort to look into the situation.

Chromaflage · 02-28-2004, 09:25 AM

Just a thought here. Those who have already convicted Harvey: If your drivers' lisence expired today, how many of you would get up Monday morning and drive to work anyway? If you just paid your car insurance and have not yet received your new proof of insurance, how many of you would get up Monday morning and go to work anyway?

I don't know Harvey personally, but I would not hold a paperwork snaffoo against any guide. It's not that big of a deal. Yes, let's keep it civil and keep it in perspective. There are a lot of people who are sensitive about these issues because of their passion about fishing and because there are a lot of rule breakers out there. Let's all stay on the side of the good guys. We all make mistakes....until the verdict is in, let's give him the benefit of the doubt here.

ORS

GOT2FISH · 02-28-2004, 09:34 AM

OREGONREDSIDE

NW JET'N · 02-28-2004, 03:18 PM

Nobody has yet to ask the most important question. Did they get any fish? I want to know how well they did. Also, are you suppose to tip a guide without a licence?

The cop's job sounds like a good one to me....I would wait until the day was over to give the ticket. That does sound kinda brutal to take a guys boat over it. What if it were a 30 grand jet boat? Guys stealing outboards out there and what do they get? Hopefully he gets his stuff back and just is ticketed.

My .02 (which is worth considerably less money)
-NWJET'N

ToFish · 02-28-2004, 09:12 PM

Hey nofishon2day, after reading all of the interesting posts, did you get your question answered ?? do you think this sting will have an impact on the illegal guiding that we all know is going on ??

Salmonator · 02-28-2004, 09:22 PM

TO, If stings like this weren't going on I guarantee every Tom Dick and Harry would be giving "discount" trips. Just a thought, I used to get my license renewals back in mid November. It is now almost March....