Kitzhabers legacy is a black eye for Oregon!

[Kruechief]

The following is a portion of an editorial from the January 2003 issue of ICMJ's Prospecting and Mining Journal, Scott Harn, publisher and editor. I found this to be a very interesting summary of what transpired in our state during the past administration.

"The Cato Institute released their fiscal policy report card on the nation's governors. The report rated each governor on his or her ability to control or limit taxation and government spending...

"John Kitzhaber of Oregon received an F for the third straight time. He increased government spending almost 30 percent his first year in office. In just the last two years he has proposed an income tax hike, a roll back of $133 million in income tax rebates approved by the voters in an earlier initiative, a $44 million increase in liquor taxes, an increase in auto fees, and a 50-cent per pack cigarette tax (on top of his previous 40-cent per pack increase), and numerous other fee increases. Kitzhaber is commonly referred to as 'Tax-haber.'"

Krue

[24 on/ 48 off]

and a 50-cent per pack cigarette tax

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Didn't Oregonians overwhelmingly approve that ballot measure?

--spud-- :smile:

[Kruechief]

True, and i guess he didn't pardon death row before he left, so..... [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

And most importantly, he is out!

Krue

[lost_sailor]

Time will tell. He's a good guy, and he did a better job than any of us would have.

You'll believe what you want to believe. The gov is not all powerful, the legislature has a hand in those budgets.

[24 on/ 48 off]

Its also kind of ironic that even with all that tax money raised, the Republican-controlled legislature still couldn't control the budget defecit.

--spud-- :smile:

[The Fishing Geek]

I find it so hard to believe that a Conservative website wouldn't like a Democratic governor.

The concept just boggles the mind.

[Sturgeon Tom]

The Governor has that one thing the legislators do not have. VETO and he used it a lot.

[Straydog]

So.....Legacy is built only on taxation, huh? ...

Nothing about what he did with the money such as more Salmon for us to catch via the Oregon Plan, the guts to stand up to Hydro, thousands of children and elderly getting health care that they could not otherwise afford it and other positive things he has done.

Even if you are a ditto head, I would hope you would not be so indoctorinated that you refuse to look at the complete picture.

I don't like paying taxes any more than anyone but sure don't take for granted all we get for our buck like so many seem to.

By the way, what would one expect a publication for recreational bulldozing to focus on??

[ 01-14-2003, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Kruechief]

Wow,

Liberals are so easy to hook! [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img]



If only Steelhead would take the bait this easy!


Krue

[Kruechief]

LS,

"Brain-dead redneck,"

To whom are you referring?

Dead in Congress? How about this new rule to deal with Democrats who walkout?

"Starting this session, members who leave the chamber and don't return after being ordered back would face fines of $1,000 a day. The fines are meant to stop the kind of disruptive walkout that Democrats staged in 2001 during a fight about redistricting."

If you meant to insult me by calling me a "redneck" you failed, the part that only bothers me a little is the "brain-dead" part as I am a double degree holder that graduated in the top 5%.

So, please, "educated" (sorry Wildhawg) or similar adjectives with the “redneck” epithet are appreciated.

Your cooperation in this matter is demanded,

Krue

[ 01-14-2003, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: kruechief ]

[DanS]

Keta,

Is there a "new" definition of 'liberal' we aren't aware of?

[monoman]

$2314.00 for every man woman and child in our fair state was the last count on your pers!
Dr no did nothing to help this.

I voted for him twice, I feel he had a chance to change this state. We now live in a state that is divide between those that know there right(the left) and those that are trying to pay for it.
Kitz did not like any idea that was not his, so he vetoed. More than any other gov.

Tell me LS when was he "broad-minded"? By your tone I don't see how you are broad-minded

[lost_sailor]

I'm not the one who labelled anyone!

Well, OK, I threw out a label in retaliation ...

Do you remember who ran AGAINST Kitzhaber? What kind of mess would our state and our fish be in if SIZEMORE had been the gov.??

[ 01-14-2003, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: lost_sailor ]

[Kruechief]

Since when did "liberal" become such a bad label?

I am now fairly conservative but?

I know that the "liberals" of the 60s provided me with many civil rights through their perseverance!

Miranda, Esobedo (sp), and more.

Without the "liberals" we would have a much worse country.

Krue

[Kruechief]

LS,

Sizemore = bad

true!

Krue

[24 on/ 48 off]

$2314.00 for every man woman and child in our fair state was the last count on your pers! Dr no did nothing to help this.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Wait a second.. Since when was the Governor responsible for the stock market? It was the stock market and some misaligned idealism by the PERS board which got us into the debacle. Kitzhaber appointed a committee several months ago to study the problem and even appointed himself as chairperson. They are working on finding an answer, since no easy one exists due to contractual obligations.

Kitzhaber didn't want to borrow from our future. It's simple. Our future is very uncertain now. Who can say that it will be better in the next few years? I have to agree with his philosophy of "pay as you go".

--spud-- :smile:

[ 01-14-2003, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: 24 on/ 48 off ]

[lost_sailor]

Name calling is not necessary.

The legislature has something much like a veto, it's "death in committee"

liberal, adj: "marked by generosity and openhandedness" "broad-minded, tolerant, esp: not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms"

brain-dead redneck!

[img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

LS,
Bad day?
Your definition of a liberal is off the mark too.

[Fishplay]

Wait a second.. Since when was the Governor responsible for the stock market? It was the stock market and some misaligned idealism by the PERS board which got us into the debacle. Kitzhaber appointed a committee several months ago to study the problem and even appointed himself as chairperson. They are working on finding an answer, since no easy one exists due to contractual obligations.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Nobody claimed Kitz was responsible for market conditions. He certainly had ample opportunity to correct the "mis-aligned idealism" that is is currently bankrupting our state. Appointing a committee months ago is just another fine example of his inept management and his overwhelming desire to spend taxpayer dollars on any and everything. Who is going to pay for this committee's time. The PERS mess is not something that just started months ago. It also did not start with the collapse of the stock market. It was known by many to be a toilet since it's inception. You can not blame any of it on the stock market. I learned about the volatility of the markets when I was in the sixth grade. The foundation upon which PERS is built is fundmentally unsound. As far as any contracts that have been drawn around this are concerned. I say toss them out, null and void, and begin immeadiate negotiations for new contracts that are based on reallity.

Kitzhaber didn't want to borrow from our future. It's simple. Our future is very uncertain now.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Now thats a legacy to be proud of!!

We have free health care for illegal immigrants and drug dealers though and many young ex- public employees enjoying early retirement because they can make more through PERS than they can working for a living and paying taxes like the rest of us.

Thanks for your votes!!!

[riverrat]

the question is....is oregon better after 8 years of kitzhaber?....some thoughts...
oregon is in the top 3 for unemployment
oregon is rated in the top 5 for hungry children
oregon has one of the highest tax bases in the nation.....not good when you want to draw new businesses or keep the ones already established
oregonians had no idea when and where we became so deeply in debt....in the beginning of 2002 our leader stated we were to have a deficiet of 100+ million...then 300+ million....then 700+ million....the latest is over 2 billion.....no handle on that one
a consitent trend to overturn measures passed by voters
i could go on with more but want to state one final observation.....using scare tactics such as cutting public safety and human resources while releasing or shortening sentences on non violent criminals to pass measure 28.....i certanially didn't see any pork cut from the budgets......just imho

[Straydog]

Fishplay,



[ 01-16-2003, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Straydog]

riverrat,

I can't argue with your facts but I sure think you are giving the Governor too much blame when our legislature had 5 special sessions and still could not accomplish a thing....... I think there is plenty of blame to go around.

The scarey part is Kitz. is gone, many of our legislators are not.

[ 01-15-2003, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[lost_sailor]

PERS was raking in money a few years ago, nobody was cryin' then.

[Straydog]

Lost sailor,

Good point.

Also, lots of people say raising more revenue is not the way to go during a down economy. Problem is, no had the foresight to go after it when the economy was booming and now we really need it! :whazzup:

[ 01-15-2003, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Kruechief]

Thank God he is retiring from politics as there is enough ignorant people in this state (Portland, Eugene, Ashland) to probably get this joke elected to the senate.

Please mail in your NO vote on measure 28, don't let the proponents lull you to sleep!

Krue

[lost_sailor]

Well Dr. No wanted to keep the excess tax revenue in a "rainy day" fund, instead of spending the million bucks to mail us our "kicker" checks.

That would have helped.

[Kruechief]

LS,

Why don't you send me some of YOUR cash :grin: that I put into MY savings?

Then I am going to go and blow all MY money and then get into the savings and spends YOURS!

Krue :whazzup:

[Bigdog]

Well said Krue. LS do you work for the state? Cool avitar fishplay. Well said river rat. Join us in voting no on 28.

[Kruechief]

Make sure that you and the others who you know vote too! Proponents want to lull us to sleep by putting out propaganda that it will be a landslide thereby convincing many would-be NO voters into not voting!

They are sneaky on the left.

Krue

[J.Slay]

KrueChief - Do you think this random "January 2003 issue of ICMJ's Prospecting and Mining Journal" would have rated Kitzhy so poorly had he allowed more strip sulpher, copper...whatever..mines in Oregon? You know companies are salivating over getting their grubby hands on our resources. The environment is why I voted for Kitzhaber, and why I think he is the best governor we have had (With respect to all other gov.s prior to Bob Straub). Our fisheries are better for having this man in office. He is a true Oregonian, and not a puppet of big business or special interests. (FYI - I certainly am not sold on Kulongoski!)

Was Vic Atiyeh to blame when we led the nation in unemployment during the early 80's?

Complain if you must fellas, but we just lost someone who was willing to stand up to keep Oregon Oregon.

[TheTexan]

lost_sailor
Member # 3203 posted 01-14-2003 10:25 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time will tell. He's a good guy, and he did a better job than any of us would have.

You'll believe what you want to believe. The gov is not all powerful, the legislature has a hand in those budgets.

24 on/ 48 off
Member # 1815 posted 01-14-2003 10:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its also kind of ironic that even with all that tax money raised, the Republican-controlled legislature still couldn't control the budget defecit.

--spud--


but, when it comes to a Republican President, he has all of the control of the stock market, economy, etc..!?!? It is amazing that on one thread you would argue using the same arguement you are against in another.

Why is Oregon in such poor shape? (financially) There are other states without income tax that are much better off! (schools, roads,services, etc..

[lost_sailor]

ex-tex: I'm sorry, you really lost me there.

krue: My money, your money? Governments are funded by all of us. It's all your money and my money. I'm just saying, we paid the taxes, the "kicker" thing required the state to send it back to us - and send about a million $ into the toilet in the process. They could have kept it until it was needed (NOW).

Dog: there is a public employee in my household, I happen to have a lot of relatives who are teachers, and I am an active participant in the public process. I did work for the state for a couple of years, 1994-96.

Everyone should vote. I still think kitz did a better job than any of us cyber-anglers would have done. And that time will tell.

[Kruechief]

Ls,
How could ex-tex lose you?
Do you not see the logic?
Man
Krue

[STGRule]

Fishplay:

many young ex- public employees enjoying early retirement because they can make more through PERS than they can working for a living and paying taxes like the rest of us.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">As a public employee I beg of you to enlighten me in this scheme to be young, retire making more money AND not have to pay taxes. As I still have 13 years till I retire (at a non-young age) I would prefer to do it your way. I would like to think that besides contributing a great deal to the knowledge of a number of fish species in our state, providing tools to managers to mitigate for habitat loss, and just all-round intense job satisfaction for doing more than my part to help ensure fishing as a sport for my children, grandchildren, and future great-grandchildren (and yours too by the way) I could at least be comfortable when I finally do retire. I certainly didn't make my fortune working for the state. Now I get to look forward to losing my retirement too, just because while it was fine for a few decades, its easier to screw me out of my future than to fix the problem fairly.

PS I'll be voting no also. And Krue? Don't forget your tin-foil hat. That way you can tell if I'm REALLY going to vote no or I am just lulling you into not voting.

[Fishplay]

Oh come on!!! Do you expect me to beleive you know nothing of all the early retirements that have taken place. I know a few teachers, a couple firemen, one state hiway dept. worker, and multiple law enforcement employees that have retired early. Those are just friends, familly and local community members I know personally. The youngest is 45 years old. In addition to them I have met, through my job, a number of others.

I appreciate the work you do. However; you are well compensated for it and it includes a pretty darn good benefits package.

Why is it you all start screaming **** at the mention of PERS reform? What the residents of Oregon deserve is to have this problem fixed "fairly" immeadiatley.

The problem with PERS is it enjoys the benefits of the market without the risk. It rides the irrational exuberance up and then leave the risk to the taxpayers. It promises annuities it can not pay for. What's fair about that? Do you just want to take the money and run, not caring who has to pay for it?

What we have here is Oregons very own Crooked E !! Looting at it's finest.

[riverrat]

PERS.....please listen up so you can understand what pers is, how it was concieved, how it is structured and why it is underfunded.....
as of ~8 years ago there is 2 tiers of pers.....tier one is guarenteed an 8% annual gain....tier 2 no guarentees......the people in tier 2 have lost money in their accounts in the past 2 years and are going to lose again this past year.....
in the beginning public agencies had to offer good benefits to its employees in lieu of money on their paychecks....they drew people that would work for less money but this was offset by the benefit package.....the only earlier retiree's are from the police and fire fighters, who would have a minimum of 20 years of service....the other early retiree's would have a minimum of 30 years of service....how many people do you know have 30 years of service with their private company?....
the underfunding of the pers system is not the fault of its members but the administrators of the system.....first tier 1 has no cap on its returns, while it guarentees 8%.....as an example, last year tier2 employees lost ~8% of their retirement......but employers had to kick in 8% to break tier 1 even and another 8% for the guarenteed gain, without a cap during good times and a fund to hold the money for the down years, this really hurts the govenment agencies....
last point....is the mishandeling of the employers portion of the retirement money....they do not set aside money for their portion of the retirement each year and benefit from gains on the money invested in the pers system, the employers through poor planning have to come up with their portion of the retirement money as payments, driven by the market, rather than annual investments....
i hope that this information clears up some myths that have been floating around......

[TheRogue]

OH, but it's SO much more fun to just pick on public employees, rather than just look at the problem itself.

This state is going to loose a bunch of very qualified people over the next few years...I personally wouldn't blame a single person if they retired early and took whatever they get, rather than putting up with the crap that's being shoveled now.

Then, after all this experience goes away, when things maybe don't run as smoothly as they should, well, just remember what happened, and why.

TR

BTW....I don't work for any sort of Oregon agency, and have nothing to do with PERS, and don't have any family members in it either.

[ 01-16-2003, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: TheRogue ]

[Straydog]

That's right The Rogue.

Further, I never heard STG yell "****" when the topic of PERS came up.

Stick to the facts folks.

Fishplay, how many of the people you know that retired early are making more than they were and not paying taxes? You didn't address the whole question that was presented.

Also, how much does your employer pay in taxes; property, income, corporate or otherwise? It seems you are whining about injustices in the public sector yet, if I am not mistaken, you work for an outfit that pays no taxes. Is that true?

[ 01-16-2003, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[24 on/ 48 off]

Police and Fire employees must put in 25, not 20 years.

--spud-- :smile:

[montster303]

Riverrat....everything you said was right on the money....except Police and Fire have a 25 year minimum, with a minimum age of 50 for FULL benefits.

Fishplay- My guess is that if your friends/family have retired early, they either have taken reduced benefits (probably offset by the Oregon savings and thrift plan-basically like an individual IRA the state has no power over and no contribution to) OR maybe they had some Federal time such as military (i believe a 20 year retirement?).

this was taken from the PERS website:
Full Benefits

Class
Age
PERS Service

All members
Any age
30 years

General service Tier One
58
No minimum

General service Tier Two
60
No minimum

Police and fire
50-55
25 years

Police and fire
55
No minimum

As a piece of sunshine for those complaining about benefits for retiree's....A correction officer's life expectancy after retirement (last i heard) was a whopping 3-5 years on the average. guess in the end we are probably saving the state alot of money.... :grin: [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

[TheTexan]

LS,

On another thread you are saying/agreeing with the statement that Bush is to blame for the economy and worlds problems. I just don't see a differnece in the effect that the two men could have with respect to their positions. I guess since one is a democrat and the other a republican, you will just turn the facts in the direction that you want.

I do agree that a governor cannot be totally blamed for all that goes wrong in his state. They all have to work with the legislature, similar to the president and congress.

[Kruechief]

So far I have been accused of being a "brain dead redneck" and now of wearing a tin foil for a hat?

OK?????

By the way I am tier 2 and I missed tier 1 by a few months :depressed:

Anyhow, I have seen a lot of waste in my agency and it sickens me. At the end of biennium my supervisors struggled to spend every penny left in their budgets so they will not be penalized for not spending it (it seems that government is trained to grow and consume at al costs). I am told that budgets that are not drained may be decreased. What kind of mentality is that?

STG, you and many of my close friends are getting a lot of undo animosity directed your way. PERS was a great way to get and retain great employees such as you. I, for one, thank you and all the others for your service.

Krue

PS: Just to let you know upfront, none of my family or I have seen bigfoot, aliens or Elvis (at least alive and in the last 25 years or so).

Peace out

[lost_sailor]

I didn't make the connection to Bush based on the quotes from me and 24/48. So what did I say? Folks were blaming the economy on Slick (Clinton) and I wondered how long we had to wait to blame it on Bush. I admit I really don't care for our fearless leader, when I listen to him read his speeches I can't believe he is capable of an original thought. He is a puppet and I don't know who is pulling the strings, but I suspect if I did know I wouldn't like it a bit.

I do think the President has more impact on the economy than the Governor of Oregon.

And he does sit at that desk where "the buck stops."

Hey, I don't mean to really p!$$ anyone off - I enjoy this stuff and try not to take it way too seriously. I spewed out "brain-dead redneck" (hasty, yes) because I figured it was about as accurate as labelling me "liberal."

Carry on. I would rather be fishing...

[monoman]

Fact:
Teachers
Start teaching at 22 retire with 30 years at 52!
I will not get to retire at 52...will you!
Some at 110% of their wage!

[WaterDog]

Riverrat, good summary. I just wish the media would report the facts correctly instead of their seeming aversion for the truth. I have yet to read or see one article that correctly portrays PERS. I get soooooo tired of the implication that everyone in PERS will retire with 105% of their income. It’s such a great time to be employed in the public sector. :depressed:

[img]graemlins/lurk.gif[/img]

[montster303]

your right, monoman...and i'll be 53 when i can retire :grin:

maybe we should make everyone work the same amount of years...and earn the same amount of pay...and get the same amount of money at retirement.... [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img] i'm sure we could get all the doctors and lawyers to go for that one...and i'm sure that the people that work minimum wage jobs would go for it too... [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

before i started with the state, the company i worked for put about 10-12 % into a retirement account for me (granted, it wasn't every year as this was a profit sharing plan. but it was for most). the state puts 6% and in some cases picks up the employee's contribution of 6% (keep in mind that this was accepted in lieu of pay increases). PERS isn't perfect by any means...and it may need an overhaul...but PERS is NOT why the state is in trouble. how much are we spending on the oregon health plan? thousands of people move to the state just for that plan...do you think most of them plan on getting jobs and paying taxes? they're in it for the free ride. I know there are people that truly need something like the OHP...however, there are many many more that abuse the system and our tax dollars (i.e. illegals, women popping out kids for more $)

we all know that the state buys things at unreal prices so that their departements can get more money next bienium....how do we control that? (serious question...looking for suggestions)....when there is a budget shortfall, they cut where it hurts (OSP, release inmates, lay off staff)...how do we get them to spend more wisely? and eliminate the bogus made up positions we see in the state?

[TheRogue]

rich....

1. PERS

2. Negotiated contracts.

3. growth in Oregon Health Plan.

4. HEALTH CARE INSURANCE INCREASES!!

Personally, I DON'T WANT my government services to yo-yo with the economy. Government services should be stable year in and year out. There were big mistakes made by both sides of the aisle in not looking ahead to poorer times, ie, new programs, new spending, etc.....and now we're paying for it. (although it should be said there was a push for a rainy-day fund by Dems and a few moderate Reps, and the conservatives clobbered it.

I hope this legislature can come to grips with this, I believe our new governor has. Pay as you go, or get rid of it. Let's prioritize from the beginning, and figure out what we need to fund. Unfortunately, even though I'm generally an optomist, I don't believe there's a snowball's chance in hell of that happening with such a horribly divided state that we have now!!

TR

[monoman]

Monster
When you retire at 53, will you pay state income tax on your Pers money?
No......So that means you now live in a state and do not pay your share of the cost of that state......and I'm sure you vote......hmmmm.....so there are poeple out there that don't have to pay taxes, are being payed a large retirement from a state program,earlier than most, and vote! This is why nothing can be done to fix our problem.
Pers is not the only thing that is wrong with funding, but if not redone from start to finish it will be the reason kids spend less time in bigger classes.

[montster303]

not sure where you are getting your facts from....

PERS withholds federal and Oregon state taxes only. PERS benefits paid to retirees or beneficiaries who are non-Oregon residents are not subject to Oregon state income tax. If you are subject to taxation by another state, you must arrange to pay taxes to that state.

Per the PERS web page

[monoman]

montster
You are correct...but.....all monies before 1991 were not taxed.....The state payed up the amount you will get by 9.+. So yes they are taxing you now.

[STGRule]

It thrills me to no end how some people are making serious decisions based on mis-information. PLEASE don't assume, you know the rote.

PS Sorry for the tin-foil hat remark, Krue. It wasn't needed.

[lost_sailor]

RichH,

If a loaf of bread costs $2.59 when it used to cost $2.09, why can't it cost $2.09 ?

[Kruechief]

I know it's hard STG, but it needs addressing. You know, I just got my pink slip (OYA), so please don't say I am obtuse. I just can't stand the waste.

Just remember the quote on the wall at the Holocaust Museum in our Washington, D.C. that tells the story of the people who didn't complain or object to the mistreatment of others. Their final lament was "That when they finally came for me, there nobody left to complain."

Also: How many times can a man turn his head, pretending he just doesn't see?

Believe it or not I gleaned these from Bill Walton but they hit me like a ton of bricks. I can't take the waste. Our government was budgeted with 5% increase but that wasn't enough. They want 16+% my God man when does it stop? Look at California, half the people voting for the expanding government do not pay taxes. Why wouldn't they vote to grow their gravy train. You want reform how about making a law that says if you haven't paid a dime in taxes the last year and do not have a permanent address YOU DON'T VOTE!

Krue

[GutshotApe]

kruechief - In addition to paying income taxes, I think a prerequisite for voting should be real estate ownership. In Eugene, the 25,000 students at the UofO vote in the local elections as a liberal bloc and often are the deciding factor on money issues - yet these students pay little or no income tax and no property taxes.

[montster303]

monoman,
I didn't follow your last post.....could you e-mail or message me? thanks

[Kruechief]

GSA,

Good point!

I'm just tired of footing the bill for all the waste and free loaders.

When I see what is going on down south (Cali) it truly scares me!

Krue

[RichH]

What I wish someone would explain to me is why, since the current budget includes a 12% increase over the last one, can't we scale back the budget to fit with the times. According to an article ran in last weeks Statesmans Journal the current budget was built in 2001 pre 9/11 with the economy doing quite well and so the forecasts were very rosy.

The reality is now what we've all come to know and love. Why can't the government scale back to more reasonable expenditures than originally predicted?

I know, I'm a little thick headed so please don't use big words but does anybody have good input on this?

[RichH]

LS,

I understand inflation. Why budget more than double what the rate of inflation is? I'm all for a rainy day fund but give me a break. Here in the private sector my last pay raise was 2%.

How the heck am I supposed to keep up? Maybe I could just budget myself a 12% increase. [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

[Kruechief]

Rich,

As I said earlier, the budget was already at a 5% increase over the last. The 12% is above that! So, the total budget increase being 16% +.

I have never gotten a 5% raise in all my years of working in the private sector as well as for the state.

Krue

[Straydog]

GSA, Krue,

I can't believe some of the stuff I read from you guys at times.

My daughter is a Soph. at OSU and works part time while attending school. At one point she had two part time jobs. Under your rules she should not be allowed to vote because she is not a land owner??? :whazzup:

Tell me Krue, does this make her a free loader?

Were you a free loader when you were learning how to deal with youth offenders of did you just graduate from highschool, buy property and become employed with the OYA?

You Gutshot, did you buy land, go to college and then come out a forester....... never any free loading time for you, huh? (edit. I forgot, Uncle Sam paid your way through school....)

My gosh, no wonder young people think some 'mature' adults are selfish fools.

Boy, that is good motiviation for our kids to get educated and become the people that wil take care of us in our old age and see that our country goes forward in a positive fashion.

There may be some merit to disallowing college students to vote on local money issues but beyond that your idea is so elitist it makes me ill. So, the person that chooses to rent rather than own property shouldn't be allowed to vote either, huh? I think the statue of Liberty would blush if she read this garbage.

AAAhhhh, the land of liberty and the free...... if you own real estate. [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

Thank God this is only an internet forum and you guys will likely never be in a position to make serious decisions about our future. [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

[ 01-17-2003, 06:31 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]