so ... Measure 28?

[lost_sailor]

How about a little economic politics closer to home? What do you think?

I'm really on the fence on this one. On one hand I would love to throw the state into a crisis in hopes that our humble legislators might finally DEAL WITH IT and take some serious drastic action towards restructuring the revenue system. Yeah, like that will ever happen ...

On the other hand, I have kids in public school, and the schools don't need yet another hit. I preach about the value of education as a long-term solution to many other social ills, so, I guess, I might, maybe, vote YES but I won't be surprised or very disappointed if it doesn't pass.

**You fellers from the wrong side of the river can go ahead and laugh**

[24 on/ 48 off]

I'll vote yes. I can't bear to watch our schools and state police lose so many positions.

--spud-- :smile:

[Sturgeon Tom]

no

[Get Bit]

LS,

I'm with you. I am really struggling with the whole thing. On one hand the state budget is out of control over the last ten years, On the other, the folks in Salem seem to continue to filter the money into new programs rather then put the $ into the basic services. Schools,Police Fire, etc. Here I am a teacher that may be out of a job and entertaining voting no ! Fancy that !

Get Bit

[riverraider]

NO NO NO

First, the state polic aren't going anywhere.
The layoff notices are being planned to go out a week before the election only as a scare tactic, then they are being pulled back right after... the people getting them have already already been given word. (Plus our new governor admitted it, but you won't here it on Portland news) Can you say politics?
Starting in 1953, the Dems have said "If we only had a little more money, we could make everything better..." Its been going on ever since. Has it been fixed...NO.
We are always hearing fiscal responsibility. Heres a concept, lets start with the government.
And finally, what makes you think meas. 28 will fix anything? Even if it passes, we will be 700 million in debt again as soon as we start the next year, because nothing has changed. Even the people saying "we are just buying time until the economy gets going" are thereby admitting the plan can't work. Raising taxes just extends recessions, doesn't anyone remember the early '80's around here. You know, the one where Oregon took 2 years longer than the rest of the country to come out of the recession??? Yea, raising taxes works...NOT
Its time for Oregon to quit playing politics with cops,schools, etc and live within a budget like the rest of the world.
Even our new governor admits there are alot of logical cuts that could be made, but he doesn't want to talk about them until the election, because he's afraid that could confuse people???? VOTE NO

[Alligator]

Oh brother! :whazzup: The state has enough of our money! I will be voting NO. Forgive me for not having alligator tears but I for one am tired of paying taxes every direction I turn. It's time to let the Oregon legislature trim their budget like the rest of us do.

Oregon businesses are being run out of the state and we wonder why oregon has an unemployment problem.

NO MORE TAXES!

[crabbait]

Here is the problem: When you threaten to cut financing to a government agency they cut the service that they provide in order to make a point about how much they need the money.

They don't eliminate levels of management or ineffective departments. They don't modernize or streamline processes. They don't analyse where money is being wasted. THEY CUT THE PRODUCT THEY DELIVER and they do it in the way that will hurt whoever cut their purse strings the most.

Just like ensuring that we spend all of this years money to make sure we get the funding next year, it is about making sure that each little fiefdom survives, whether or not they are antiquated or no longer required. Nature of the beast.

[thankful]

Do you kind of wonder why there are more parents home schooling their kids these days and will there be more peace officer to protect you at any time when you need them? I have guns in my house in a safe place and I have a permit to carry one just in case I get a busy signal........

[ragjr]

let the goverment take a paycut for once not the people that put them there, I feel they make to much to begain with, why else would they do it(MONEY) thats why.

no new taxes, we need jobs

just my $0.02 worth

[Spoiled Daddy]

Riverraider,

Where did you get the info that the lay off notices to OSP are just a scare tactic and that they have already been told that. WRONG! I happen to work with these guys and they are not a scare tactic and none of them have been told that at all. In fact, even if Measure 28 passes, OSP will loose 25 positions, as the new taxes don't cover the total cost of keeping the entire force.

Let me give you an example. In 1989 there were 34 OSP positions in Lincoln County. That covered Patrol, Game Enforcement, Detectives and Administration. In 2003, there are now 13 total OSP positions in Lincoln County. If Measure 28 does not pass, there will be a total of 8 OSP positions in Lincoln County. Now where do you cut that fat out of those numbers. Even if Measure 28 passes, there will still be 25 OSP troopers layed off because the bill still does not cover the necessary funds to cover the budget shortfalls. 3 of those positions will come from Lincoln County, leaving 10 total game and patrol positions for 24/7 coverage. Already the Sheriff of Lincoln County has pulled his detective from the county drug team to better prepare his department to better handle the number of calls that they will be expected to cover because of the lack of OSP available. That leaves 2 detectives from the various agencies in the county to work drug cases in the entire county. I can tell you now that there are drastically increased response times to incidents on our state highways by OSP. When these cuts go through, you simply will not get an OSP trooper when you call for one to most incidents. There is no way you can expect 10 people to do the job that 34 people used to do. Since 1989, the Oregon State Police has gradually shrunk in size and there are almost a 1/3rd less OSP troopers on the road, forests and waterways today than there were then.

This budget shortfall will directly affect the Courts, Juvenile Departments and Social Service agencies as well.

I do in fact blame the administrations of the last 3 Govenors and the Legislative bodies for the past 10-12 years for the financial crisis that Oregon is now facing. The people of Oregon also must take some responsibility too. I for one have always wanted the services of the schools, law enforcement and agencies, but have repeatedly turned down mixed bag tax measures that have come before us. We insist on having the pie, but don't want to pay for the filling. I am very much aware that the economy is bad right now, but if we still want the same level of services, we have got to come up with the financing to provide them. As bad as taste that leaves in my mouth, that means increased taxes.

I will be voting YES on Measure 28 and can only hope that our new Oregon administration can come up with a financing package that will best serve and protect the citizens of Oregon.

SD

[k9jeff]

I am voting no on this one. Its time to cut special programs, the oregon trail program, Etc....
Oregon says they dont have money, but they are building a new 3 story building on Salem to reloacte workers from Portland. This does not NEED to be done. I know the troopers will suffer as a result of this not passing, BUT, its time the public sent a message to the fat cats in Salem and told them Enough is Enough. Its time to trim wasteful programs to fund public safety and schools like the public want....

The State of Oregon does not have a budget problem,, the have a spending problem....

This topic just ticks me off.....and its sad,,,,

[northriver1]

No. For those that are concerned the State does not have enough money to operate on, be my guest and send them a few dollars each month. I am sure they will put the money to good use and than we will all be happy.

[TheRogue]

YES

I agree with you whole-heartedly, Spoiled Daddy!!

As much as I agree with most of you concerning wasteful programs, and not starting NEW programs, I am not willing to hold my school-age kids hostage over this.

Many people are saying....these are just scare tactics...they won't lay off cops, let people out of prison, close schools, etc. Where do you all think the cuts are going to come from?????????? These cuts are DONE DEALS!! They were part of the legislation that put this on the ballot!! And if you think that this legislature will fix that, welllll.......

Jerry Dove has a legislator who swears the hatcheries won't get cut. The news and the papers have many, many legislators who come out and say that "their" programs will not be cut. What do ya suppose that means!!!!!!!! Gridlock, again, just like the 5 special sessions that got us into this pickle to begin with. With a 15-15 deadlock in the Senate (hmm, the Dem's GAINED a seat, what does that say??), they can't agree on leadership, and we're just a few days away from starting session.

I vote for people to make the hard decisions. Either cut something, or come up with the revenue to support it. The measure is a huge political cop-out, which, unlike most of this budget trouble, I lay SOLELY on the Republicans.

TR

[ 01-10-2003, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: TheRogue ]

[Artwo]

I'm really torn on this one..........................

On one hand I feel that I can certinly afford the $150-$200 a year this will cost me to help save the programs they say will be cut. I'm also very active in my kids school and have seen the troubles they have been dealing with for a number of years now.

BUT,

I also feel that our state goverment needs to do some financial house cleaning of their own and be held more financially responsible, ie. Oregon Lottery spending, OLCC, State Gov. employee vehicle fleet, etc.

It really ticks me off when on one hand our state goverment is crying to us that they don't have enough money for this and that special services, then on the other hand we here that they just bought numerous new Ford Excursions (very nice one from what I saw) for there own personal fleet. Wouldn't a nice Ford Explorer for half the cost been sufficient as well as cheaper to operate. I just don't get it.................

Also, this is being called a temporay tax increase, I for one would like to know when it will be stopped in the future...............do we honestly think this will ever happen............not.

So, come Jan. 28 I'll have to make my decision. You can bet I'll be paying very close attention to the debates over this between now and then...................we'll see

JK

[Miss B Haven]

Gotta vote yes after a lot of thought. It's not worth $10 a month to me to lose the hatcheries, cops, fire, schools etc.
And you KNOW thats exactly what will get cut. They will take away everything that the public does not want to do without in hopes that a new tax bil lwill pass later. They will not cut fat, they wil lcut what you all want to stay. It's legal goverment balckmail (read- politics).
I'm not willing to see this State go down the tubes any farther for $10 a month. I can cut out that much fat from my budget and keep the schools and the hatcheries.
VOTE YES folks - or we'll all regret it and you know it.

[TheRogue]

Has anyone seen any numbers on the real costs of Measure 11, the one where we voted in minimum and mandatory sentences for a host of crimes, but did not include the revenue source for administering to the increase in incarcerated criminals?? I'm talking specifically about the costs to the state budget, not about how it's benefitted society (and I believe it has)

We all do realize, of course, that there is a significant increase in all levels of crime when there is a significant drop in the economy, and a rise in unemployment, correct?? And that many of these crimes will be subject to Measure 11 sentencing guidelines?? I'm all for those guidelines....it's just there's going to be more Measure 11 criminals that we have to deal with....where's that money going to come from??

TR

[Miss B Haven]

Artwo - The 1/2% increase is ONLY in effect for 3 years. That is in the measure and it will go away after 2004 tax year. They can not jsut "keep" this tax in effect. Not to say a new measure won't come up to make it permanent, but that would require another vote.

[Cool Texan]

If "Hell No" is an option on the ballot, that is what I will check. Otherwise, just a regular No from me.

Plain and simple...its a temporary measure to buy some time to help get us to greener pastures....but it does NOTHING to fix the underlying problems that are causing this. Screw you Mr. Oregon, you get enough of my money. Its time to work harder and work smarter. I hate to hear about people possibly losing jobs, but hey, welcome to the economy. Scale back the size of the gub-ment...cut salaries, cut perks.

Its just a budget....balance it. Its simple. I do it every day at work, and I do it at home. Gotta make some tough calls, but it can be done in an intelligent matter. Perhaps I'll run for Governor some day... Balanced budgets with the 3 E's first....Education, Environment, Elderly.

Williams for Governor!!!

[Sturgeon Tom]

This state is one of the most taxed states in the United States and it is never enough. Let me quote our out going governor " I never saw a tax I didn't like". Our new governor has the same opinion.
The Clinton administration put 100,000 police to work in this nation and they spent money here in this state to hire cops. Now we are going to take that government money that hired them and fire state cops etc. Where or what happened to the money?
Anyone who thinks just becouse you pass a tempory tax the money is going to save the school systems in the states. I think there mistaken.
I doubt when our fearless leaders get through with it all of the school districts get verry little.
There is no such thing as a temperory tax, just as the people in California, they still have theirs.
Waist of money is the problum. Just drive to St Hellens and look at the beautiful bricks in the center of the Hwy they put in. A totla wast of money. There is your school money.
The politicians can save all the schools and everthing else with an attitude adjustment. Cut spending where it is not needed, and put the money where it is needed. We do that every day in our lives why can't they.
A big no on the tax.

[riverraider]

Hi Spoiled daddy,
Did some checking and the part about the OSP already being told not to worry was commentary from the reporter, not part of what the governor said. Wanted to apologize.
It is possible for them to balance the budget without a tax increase or cutting police however, so to that extent I do believe what they are saying IS a scare tactic.
Yes, it would be easier to just raise taxes, but the tax increase proposed isn't enough to balance the budget anyway. Also, don't count on the tax (if passed) to go away in three years.

[bigshark]

I have to tell you I have been planning to vote yes, but I'm about to change my mind. The cost of the Oregon Plan is too much. Anyone can be on it, and they are. You may flame me for this and think I'm a terrible person but I think you need to be a resident of oregon and a legal one at that to have benefits. The undocumented alien situation is too much. If you have these workers on your property their healthcare should be your responsibility not mine. To bring the public to its knees the agencies which can hurt us the most become the first line targets. Public safety and schools. What kind of message is this society sending?
Close the narcotics squad in lincoln county, close the courts for two days a week. What a great place to set up a meth lab? Help your self. Why not send the aliens who are not here legally back to where they came from. Those that are here should have healthcare coverage by the employer. Make cuts where they are least felt, don't pay college students to sit on committes and talk about race relations. We all know we must stop the hate. We all know that drugs are bad. Stop building these new buildings for government agencys who can do with what they have until economic times bring in enough revenue to pay for them. Don't force me to vote for higher taxes by hitting below the belt and punish me for saying PERS is too liberal for some but admittedly not all. Why should a school administrator get 119% of salary plus social security with 15 years as an administrator as Korach is getting in Lake Oswego? Teachers don't get that kind of deal and they are in PERS. Come on lets try to be good citizens, but fair, and stay within the law..............You want to force me to my knees and vote yes because what you are doing is so horrible? Sorry, as our young people say.......you got the wrong dude!

[CATCH AND EAT]

Crabbait, I like your synopsis of the problem. Totally agree with it. K9 Jeff, thank you for your perspective. I agree.

My reasoning for voting "NO!!!" is That I am so tired of additional taxation that never solves the problems. Once governments get ahold of a tax rarely to they abolish it.

I cannot remember the number of the last schools measure that passed not long ago but here is how it pans out for me. in July 2003 my property taxes will increase $300 per year just because of that one measure. The assessed value of my house was automatically raised $10,000 without so much as a county person physically looking at my place. Total increase in property taxes this year alone $500.00. If 28 passes up it goes another $120 or so dollars a year [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

By voting "NO" I have a lot to loose here. I have 3 children ages 3 to 14 in public school systems. Will they suffer? Yep! Will they know they are suffering? Probably not :whazzup: Will they get the current attention at school for their education. No, not as much. Will I be helpin them more with their homework? Certainly.

What else will I loose. I have a mother-in-law that is disabled and living in an extended care facility. She is on SS and Medicare. Guess what? If 28 does not pass she more than likely will have to move out of the facility and back to an appartment where we will have to care for her. She is a stroke victom with partial parallysis plus a heart condition and diabetic. Gee...is'nt that fun. :depressed:

Will I suffer when 28 is defeated? Yep! I will feel it bigtime. Still, I say NO NO NO on 28!!!!

Just a thought. Abolish property taxes and install a sales tax at 8.5% or even 9%

[TheRogue]

TFG....I was wondering there....not your normal style to say something like that, shoulda known better!!!

The cost of the Oregon Plan is too much. Anyone can be on it, and they are. You may flame me for this and think I'm a terrible person but I think you need to be a resident of oregon and a legal one at that to have benefits. The undocumented alien situation is too much. If you have these workers on your property their healthcare should be your responsibility not mine. To bring the public to its knees the agencies which can hurt us the most become the first line targets. Public safety and schools. What kind of message is this society sending?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I agree

Make cuts where they are least felt, don't pay college students to sit on committes and talk about race relations.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Huh??? :whazzup: :whazzup:


Many people's favorite voice of the conservative, MR Lars Larson, had numbers not that long back that showed a sales tax wouldn't be the cure-all that many think, because much of the tourists that we think would pay the sales taxes are, since 9-11, in-state travelers.

How about this: Institute a non-resident sales tax. Show your ODL, or ID card, and you don't pay. Leave the rest of the tax structure as it is. We'll know quite soon just how effective a sales tax would be.

TR

BTW....my wife and I will pay approximately $10K in state income tax for 2002, and a good chunk in property taxes, so please don't assume I have nothing to loose or gain here.

[ 01-10-2003, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: TheRogue ]

[CATCH AND EAT]

Sorry Kyle, did'nt mean to make it sound like I was willing to sacrifice for my children or mother in law. What I meant to say is it ticks me off to be placed in a position that is far from acceptable by any strech of the imagination. I am happy you paid your taxes Kyle. Good form. I paid dearly too. Do I feel like this? NOPE.
I dont mind paying taxes. I just hate paying taxes and more taxes for more government control and more government spending.

Will government ever be responsible like we have to in our homes and business? That has about as much of a chance of happening as me becoming a Billionaire. "0"!!!!!!

Go ahead an vote for this one. Watch the percentages increase. Watch for more new taxes and bonds to show.

BTW when taxes are concerned I alway will vote NO! Tired of the lack of government responsibility. Oh, maybe we should pay off Stan Bunn too. That's real responsible.

[Kruechief]

Dear Friends and Family,

Don't believe the hype! Vote NO on Measure 28! I, as a state employee, am astounded how my OYA managers squander thousands of dollars empting the coffers at the end of each biennium so that they can "protect" and "grow" their budget for the next. It's sickening. At the end of the 2000 budget biennium, I watched Faye Fagel, the local area coordinator, spend thousands of dollars to buy Youth Authority inmates Nike and Adidas sweat suits, shirts, socks and other apparel. As well as, get this, Wilson "NFL" footballs @ $120 per ball and "self-inflating" basketballs @ $100+ per ball!

More recently, The Oak Creek facility spent $14,000. on a wooden skate ramp that has yet to be used and is simply left out in the weather.

Pretty amazing.

Loren

Here is direct guidance on how to balance the budget in Oregon. Do you think any of the thick-headed, money grubbers will listen?

Fifty-Four Ways
&gt;Richard M. Butrick
&gt;richard@aoi.org
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;December 3, 2002
&gt;
&gt;FIFTY-FOUR WAYS OREGON CAN SAVE ITS OWN ECONOMIC BACON
&gt;By Richard M. Butrick, President - Associated Oregon Industries
&gt;
&gt;1. Eliminate all positions in state government that remain unfilled for a
&gt;period of six months with a corresponding reduction in agency budgets by
&gt;the amount of that full time equivalency (FTE). There are approximately
&gt;3,000 positions currently unfilled.
&gt;
&gt;2. The 2003-2005 biennial budget should delineate between capital costs,
&gt;operational costs and personnel costs. Currently, they are all mushed
&gt;together, which creates less accountability and more cost.
&gt;
&gt;3. Eliminate all automatic inflation adjustments in supplies and services
&gt;line items.
&gt;
&gt;4. Governor should secure immediate resignation of all PERS Board of
&gt;Directors as they have been judged to be irresponsible by the court.
&gt;Quickly nominate replacements.
&gt;
&gt;5. Reform PERS by adjusting to appropriate and contemporary actuarial
&gt;tables. Dates of adjustment would be effective January 1, 2003 with yearly
&gt;adjustments thereafter (minimum savings over time of $400 million).
&gt;
&gt;6. Reform PERS by creating a defined contribution retirement plan that
&gt;would be effective July 1, 2003 and that would have a contribution of 6% of
&gt;salary from the employee and 6% of salary from the public employer (savings
&gt;in billions to taxpayers).
&gt;
&gt;7. Insist on increasing the span of control of middle management to 1
&gt;manager per 12 employees.
&gt;
&gt;8. Review and eliminate all new programs that have been created over the
&gt;last two years. Avoid any funding of a new program unless it is funded at
&gt;the beginning of the biennium, thus avoiding extreme "roll up" costs.
&gt;
&gt;9. Budget an ending balance (stabilization fund) of at least 2% of a
&gt;biennium's General Fund budget income total.
&gt;
&gt;10. Constrain Oregon State governmentÌs budgets to no more than 5% growth
&gt;per biennium.
&gt;
&gt;11. Legislatively introduce a zero-based budgeting system, thus allowing
&gt;legislative committees to review and analyze the prior bienniumÌs budget
&gt;numbers without decision package enhancements and then add or subtract
&gt;monies in the next bienniumÌs projections, based upon need, accountability
&gt;and availability of state resources (thus eliminating the "continuing
&gt;service budget" approach).
&gt;
&gt;12. Legislate that state regulatory standards will not exceed federal
&gt;standards.
&gt;
&gt;13. Legislate that agency fees and licenses be constrained to actual cost
&gt;of services.
&gt;
&gt;14. Reduce state employee count by 5% per year for the next biennium via
&gt;attrition.
&gt;
&gt;15. Create separate salary and benefit system for managers in public sector
&gt;from rank and file to avoid conflicts of interest in bargaining.
&gt;
&gt;16. Reduce all out-of-state travel by 20%.
&gt;
&gt;17. Competitively bid a variety of services now being performed by
&gt;government employees.
&gt;
&gt;18. Encourage the Oregon State Lottery to compete with games that are
&gt;available at Native American casinos. State revenues would be enhanced by
&gt;$40 to $70 million per year.
&gt;
&gt;19. Eliminate Education Service Districts with the exception of rural
&gt;areas. Pass some of those dollars to school district superintendents of
&gt;public instruction.
&gt;
&gt;20. Contract out the state motor pool, including maintenance and repair,
&gt;which will save 10-15% and secure immediate cash by selling the current
&gt;fleet, which has a value of about $20 million.
&gt;
&gt;21. Contract out management of prisons. Oregon ranks #3 nationwide in cost
&gt;per prisoner at $45,000 per year.
&gt;
&gt;22. Privatize management of the Oregon Youth Authority. Per inmate costs
&gt;per year are now about $100,000.
&gt;
&gt;23. Privatize the Oregon Liquor Control Commission (OLCC).
&gt;
&gt;24. Eliminate Bureau of Labor & Industries and place necessary duties in
&gt;Department of Consumer & Business Services.
&gt;
&gt;25. Privatize the Driver and Motor Vehicle Division (Department of
&gt;Transportation).
&gt;
&gt;26. Abolish the Criminal Justice Commission, which saves $19.2 million and
&gt;use some of these savings to avoid cuts in state police personnel.
&gt;
&gt;27. Avoid passing a mental health parity mandate, which would increase
&gt;escalating health care costs.
&gt;
&gt;28. Ensure strict adherence to the Oregon Health PlanÌs prioritized list.
&gt;Do not pay for health services or medications for conditions below the
&gt;line.
&gt;
&gt;29. Ensure strict adherence to the Oregon Health PlanÌs eligibility
&gt;standards. Individuals who do not meet the eligibility standards would not
&gt;receive reimbursable care. (Estimated impact: $200 million less cost of
&gt;Oregon Health Plan).
&gt;
&gt;30. Reform health care policies to make medical savings accounts easily
&gt;available to all Oregonians.
&gt;
&gt;31. Avoid any attempt to force public contracting law on private
&gt;contractors.
&gt;
&gt;32. Eliminate the so-called ÏLittle Davis Bacon Act,Ó which imposes
&gt;approximately 20% extra cost on all public projects (five new schools for
&gt;the current price of four).
&gt;
&gt;33. Repeal the political contribution tax credit.
&gt;
&gt;34. Increase use of prisoners for maintenance and repair of state parks and
&gt;other public projects.
&gt;
&gt;35. Expand urban growth boundaries to accommodate increasing housing
&gt;availability and providing industrial land locations.
&gt;
&gt;36. Sell the Elliott State Forest, gaining at least $500 million, which
&gt;could be used for a school stabilization fund.
&gt;
&gt;37. Introduce tolls on bridges that need to be repaired in order to carry
&gt;appropriate commercial weight.
&gt;
&gt;38. Promote OregonÌs image of quality products, emphasizing that purchases
&gt;by OregonÌs public sector will consider criteria such as revenue impact and
&gt;Oregon jobs impact instead of just the lowest bidder.
&gt;
&gt;39. Dedicate up to 1% of PERS investments to a venture capital fund to grow
&gt;or start Oregon businesses.
&gt;
&gt;40. Eliminate mandatory student fees for political groups at colleges and
&gt;universities, thus allowing choice by the student. This will reduce tuition
&gt;costs.
&gt;
&gt;41. Promote rather than discourage destination resorts, i.e. Cascade Locks
&gt;Casino or Pelican Butte Ski Arena.
&gt;
&gt;42. Redirect the Oregon Economic and Community Development Department to
&gt;emphasize economic development versus community development.
&gt;
&gt;43. Surcharge driverÌs license renewals for state police.
&gt;
&gt;44. Place significant surcharge on vehicles registered in Oregon whose
&gt;owners have inadequate proof of residency.
&gt;
&gt;45. Eliminate the Winter Recreational Advisory Committee.
&gt;
&gt;46. Eliminate the Advisory Committee on Bicycles.
&gt;
&gt;47. Eliminate the State Board on Speed Control.
&gt;
&gt;48. Eliminate the Commission for Women.
&gt;
&gt;49. Eliminate the Hispanic Legislative Roundtable.
&gt;
&gt;50. Eliminate the Body Piercing Licensing Program.
&gt;
&gt;51. Eliminate the Commission on Black Affairs.
&gt;
&gt;52. Eliminate the Ginseng Advisory Committee.
&gt;
&gt;53. Eliminate the Office of Degree Authorization.
&gt;
&gt;54. Eliminate the Covered Bridge Advisory Committee.
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;
&gt;Sources:
&gt;AOI Research and Legislative Proposals
&gt;Cascade Policy Institute
&gt;Senator Mae Yih
&gt;Senator Beverly Clarno
&gt;Oregon Tax Research

['ZZZZzzzzzz']

I'm in the same boat as Cool Texan which is
HELL NO!

NO, NO and NO again.

Do not get sucked in. Let's find a permanent solution to our problems and not put yet another patch on them that will come off when we can least afford it.

Z's-

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by TheRogue:
How about this: Institute a non-resident sales tax. Show your ODL, or ID card, and you don't pay. Leave the rest of the tax structure as it is. We'll know quite soon just how effective a sales tax would be.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I see what you are trying to do here, but I don't think that it would be a popular tax (if such a thing even exists, but you'll see what I'm talking about here). Imagine every time you go to make a purchase that you have to show your ODL to avoid paying tax. Sure, we do something similar when we shop at places like Costco but every time you buy something at 7-11? If we only taxed larger purchases to take advantage of the border creep that we get from the North, then that creep would likely drop sharply..

Maybe we need to get people who are specialists in various fields (who would not have a Corporate interest) come into different aspects of government and suggest ways to improve the "Value for the Buck" that is being experienced. For example, I read an article today about a city employee who was saving thousands of dollars buying needed technology equipment through eBay. It's thinking and actions like this that can make a huge difference, and with the help of people "in the know" in their industries I think that we could make a difference.

My son's preschool last year was quoted a price of $1200 for a PC for their classroom. $1200 for a preschool-operated computer?! Of course, we argued against them needing a computer for the students to use, but that's the topic of another thread at a later time. The point is that a computer for that purpose should not have to cost $1200. Quite possibly half that. But they're not computer folks, so they didn't know.

Maybe what I'm suggesting here is citizen oversight of spending. Admittedly all the contracts are public domain and can be viewed at any time, but maybe a volunteer group can be formed to look over these things. Just a wacky idea.

[TheRogue]

Catch and Eat.... I apologize for my post, that was a little uncalled for, and not keeping with the IFISH discussion board spirit ;D . I'll be editing immediately.

As for Mr. Bunn, well, I think I posted something a while back about Yamhill County's "Royal Family" [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

TFG....

I would agree with the citizen oversight board for spending. The problem is, that most people who really get vocally involved in spending issues are very conservative, many to the point of being "blind".

$1200 computer?? Yikes!!! I would agree that one should be available to pre-schoolers however. My daughter was playing games and messing with MS Paint when she was three. (you're right, though, topic for another discussion) :grin: :grin:

TR

[NWRedside]

If this measure passes, where will the motivation be for the legislatures to stop spending. There has already been a bunch of yah and na's as to whether we have scare tactics at work or not so I'll just say this. ...Do we really beleive that if you put all the expenditures that our state spends money on, put them in priority as to how useful they are and the amount of people that benefit from them, that teachers, schools, and officers would be the first to go based on their analysis? I DON"T THINK SO!
Oregon pays more $ per child than most states, many of which have much higher infrastucture costs than we do.
It it were up to me, we'd cut several programs, on of which would be the OLCC.
Call their bluff, vote NO and make them change.
I know that in the short term we will loose officers and school days, but maybe it's worth it if it means some long term policies/programs get a discerning look that they otherwise wouldn't have.

[Boedy]

I heard that Oregon spends something around $250,000 per classroom right now in the top 5 percent in the country I think. How come it’s so hard for them to make it work with that?

The average teachers pay is 40k so where is the rest of the 210k going? And don’t tell me it cost that much for building upkeep.

If the state can’t control their spending now why throw more money at them? Force them to be more responsible with the money they have and stop wasting it.

Look at the lottery for a prim example of how messed up the state is look at the amount of money those idiots ****** away in the last 10 years and tell me the state doesn’t have enough money for schools when they spend it on the stuff that they did.

Look at how much money the City of Portland spent on that light rail system wasn’t it like a billion dollars so far? I think they could rebuild every school in Portland for that much. And it would benefit more people then the few people who ride the damn train. Anybody ever ride the Light rail?

I say they have all they need and they just need to be more responsible with it.

[ 01-10-2003, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Boedy ]

[Kruechief]

I just got the ballot and immediately checked NO and mailed it.

Don't want it sitting around while the money grubbers parade the disabled, children, homeless and those poor OSP officers in front of me while they try and make me the responsible party!

Kruechief

[CATCH AND EAT]

No problem Kyle and there was no need to appologize. I understood your point and I do take to heart why you will vote yes. I respect your opinion and enjoy your input. But I am still voting NOoooooo!!!!! :smile:

[Sea Nymph]

NO MORE TAX!!

excellent post by- kruechief!

if we keep giving in, when does it end?

not to mention kruechief's post but raising taxes in a so called recession?

NO MORE TAX!!

SN
ps NO MORE TAX!

[HOGTIDE]

Both my wife and I are teachers. This is an ugly situation for both public employees and for tax payers...we are both.
If kruechiefs opening anecdote is factual...well, that's disgusting.

I'm really not here to defend the expenditure of $ in the public sector because I donot know all of the details. It is a huge confusing picture to most everyone. The best economists and the worst armchair strategists have a tough time coming up with a good fiscal plan.Everyone believes there should be cuts...just not in areas that effect them!

As far as schools go, I do have to say that I don't see a lot of frills, at least for the past 6 or 8 years in education. I have been teaching for 21 years and there was a time when I did see frivolous expenditures. Don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining about my wages. Teachers make a decent income. We'll never be rich, but I usually have bait money. Although, due to increased insurance costs, I actually take home $2400 less annually than I did 3 years ago.

The reality for my district today is that cuts are not a threat, they are a reality. Our district ( a smaller one) cut over $750k to start this past year. We eliminated about a 8 licensed positions which resulted in a major increase in class sizes. I have 3 classes of juniors that waiver around the 38 mark. We have two freshman classes that are over 40. No threats...jam packed reality.

On Monday our union members are supposed to meet with administration to help decide how to cut another $600K, because the assumption is that measure 28 will go down. Eliminating extracurricular and sports is a given.We will be deciding if we are going to lay off more teachers or start cutting days each week through the second semester. As I said before, it is all ugly. ...vote to layoff my fellow employees or reduce our family income by 20%.....wouldn't cha know it..just when I'm trying to send a kid through college.

Anyway, the point is, the cuts are real and....I hate to pay increased taxes with my decreased wages also. I'll be voting yes on 28 and yes it is self-serving, but it is my reality. If the pork barrel alligations are true, I wish some fat bellies would step up to the plate and take a cut for the public good.

[ 01-10-2003, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: HOGTIDE ]

[Silver Hilton]

A washington view-

on the proposal for an out of state only sales tax: currently when I travel to the columbia river, I try to shop and stay in oregon lodgings. That would eliminate that incentive, driving business away from your neighbors. I make two trips a year to Fishermans' Marine, for example. That will cease if you were to charge sales tax.

On the classroom size issue, and the broader issue of schools. If Oregon schools continue in the direction that they are going, businesses are going to be reluctant to locate new facilities in Oregon, because employees want to live in good school districts. Washington, even though we are suffering, has better schools. You HAVE to support schools, or you will will never get the business you need to grow. It's also eating the seedcorn for future growth. Kids are the future.

[The Fishing Geek]

Darn it! Whenever I call the OSP to report a snagger they never send anyone out, or if they do it's many hours later. Where are they?

What do you mean that you won't send anyone out to gather information after my rig got broken into? They should patrol some of these areas where break-ins are such a problem. I wonder why they don't?

These buffoons in Salem don't know what the heck they're doing. Someone should kick them out of office. If only there was a way...

My local government is spending my money irresponsibly. I wish I was the one making those decisions...

[TheRogue]

Darn it! Whenever I call the OSP to report a snagger they never send anyone out, or if they do it's many hours later. Where are they?

What do you mean that you won't send anyone out to gather information after my rig got broken into? They should patrol some of these areas where break-ins are such a problem. I wonder why they don't?

These buffoons in Salem don't know what the heck they're doing. Someone should kick them out of office. If only there was a way...

My local government is spending my money irresponsibly. I wish I was the one making those decisions...

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Please see this quote from earlier in the thread:

Let me give you an example. In 1989 there were 34 OSP positions in Lincoln County. That covered Patrol, Game Enforcement, Detectives and Administration. In 2003, there are now 13 total OSP positions in Lincoln County. If Measure 28 does not pass, there will be a total of 8 OSP positions in Lincoln County. Now where do you cut that fat out of those numbers. Even if Measure 28 passes, there will still be 25 OSP troopers layed off because the bill still does not cover the necessary funds to cover the budget shortfalls. 3 of those positions will come from Lincoln County, leaving 10 total game and patrol positions for 24/7 coverage. Already the Sheriff of Lincoln County has pulled his detective from the county drug team to better prepare his department to better handle the number of calls that they will be expected to cover because of the lack of OSP available. That leaves 2 detectives from the various agencies in the county to work drug cases in the entire county. I can tell you now that there are drastically increased response times to incidents on our state highways by OSP. When these cuts go through, you simply will not get an OSP trooper when you call for one to most incidents. There is no way you can expect 10 people to do the job that 34 people used to do. Since 1989, the Oregon State Police has gradually shrunk in size and there are almost a 1/3rd less OSP troopers on the road, forests and waterways today than there were then.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Does that help to answer your questions??

TR

[Otolith]

My wife and I pay more money in taxes in a year than most people make. Are we less deserving of our money because we make more of it?

Not only do we not have kids which cost the state money for education, etc., but we pay more taxes because of it (no deductions for dependents).

Add to that the fact that we already pay some of the highest state income taxes in the country. Where does it all go? Does a school and a police officer and a teacher cost that much more in Oregon than everywhere else?

That will be a NO vote for me.

[The Fishing Geek]

TheRogue:

My big ears probably distracted you from noticing that my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek.

[TheRogue]

Hogtide.....

What in the world are you throwing reality examples into this discussion for!!! You wouldn't want people to know what really goes on at the ground level, would you?? It's so much funner to pick on people when you don't really know anything

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm 100% in your camp.

tr

[HOGTIDE]

Hi Kyle!

Ya, it is a very real and dismal situation. The cuts need to be made before the election because our semester ends on the 24th. It will already be tough enough to switch classes around at semester. Waiting til after and changing again would cause the whole show to shut down for re-rescheduling. My wife is very worried about the impact it will have on the primary kids.

Anyway..... did you get your test drive in that Boice Jet? The boats he had at the show looked like the stuff James Bond movies are made of :shocked:

[bigshark]

Hogtide
I fully understand your position and respect it. My wife is a retired teacher with 28 years of service in the Tigard district. I taught in that district as well before entering the business world in the 60s. It is a shame that poor planning and overspending has to take its wrath out on folks such as you and your wife.
There are no hard feelings here and I wouldn't ask you to rethink your vote. You are a victim. I am too. It is not easy to get out of this mess and most of us have enough compassion for others to wish this situation would just go away. It, of course, will not. You must do what you must, and so must I. I truly hope the impact on you and your district will be small if measure 28 does not pass. I take no pride in voting no and I hope you can understand why I believe I must. I see it as the only way to bring corrective action that will lead to a permanent and equitable solution. As the channel 2 just said on the 11 o'clock news, the new governor will have his hands full with the legislature who has for quite some time had a history of "bad behavior". An understatement if there ever was one.

[ 01-11-2003, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: bigshark ]

[Straydog]

Wow, I gotta go out of town for a week and this board catches fire!

Too much to respond to all but I will be casting a reluctant YES vote.

Speaking for schools, the cuts will be real, no hollow threats taking place in our district. The fat has been being trimmed for many years.

Also, someone said something about us spending 250,000 per classroom..... where??

Our district gets around $5000 per student, there are approx. 30 students in my daughters class. That does not add up to 250K..... let's be careful with the 'facts' we are throwing around here.

As for a public committee to oversee school spending there are some avenues avaiable now.... school site committees and district budget commitees both can help on this issue and do in my district. In fact, it sounds as if spending oversight in TFG's school prevented overspending on comupters...

If, and I seriously doubt that it will, the measure passes, it is then up to us to keep our elected officials on task to see that long term solutions are made in the next three years.

One thing not being discussed is the fact a lot of our problem comes from our over reliance on income taxes. Start cutting jobs and our income tax base gets reduced even further. Our income tax coffers don't care if it's dollars comes from the public sector and they will be just as missed when they go away as the private sector jobs are missed. Is it really smart to try to fix our lack of money by reducing the amount of said money by eliminated jobs, private or public???? :whazzup:

[TheRogue]

Hogtide.....Yup, we took that ride. I've been in basically every major manufacturers jet boat out there, and I can honestly attest that I have never been in a better-riding boat, although some have ridden the rough water as well. It was also, hands down, the best high-speed performing boat I have EVER been in. That's to be expected, though. He'll build any level of "Bondism" in a boat ya want. He brought up the fancy ones..I'm going to suggest to him next year he have a few "real" fishing boats.

What where we talking about?? Oh yeah: Vote YES!!

TR

[Cool Texan]

Lets just put a $10 toll booth on the I-5 bridge....lets tax those free-loading Vancouverians!!!! WHO'S WITH ME!?!?!?!?


(100% sarcasm)

:grin: :shocked:

[ 01-14-2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Cool Texan ]

[lost_sailor]

Let's charge a fee on TEXANS and Californians who move here.

[Straydog]

Count on my support Sailor!!

[Cool Texan]

I'd support that...but of course, I'd be grand-fathered since I'm already here. Granted, some say they still hear a minor drawl...but I dont wear my cowboy boots much....though my hat, plastic badge and guns still get some use, though my wife has asked that I stop telling people about our "Friday Night Roundups".

Yeeehaaww!! :shocked:

[lost_sailor]

No we need the big bucks, this here's a retro-active fee ... back to, hmmm ... 1948 :shocked: [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img]

[ 01-15-2003, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: lost_sailor ]

[bigshark]

Awe horsefeathers.......I hate this darn 28 thing......no matter how you vote you loose. :depressed:

[OldRedSled]

i was a member in a small group listening to the chief of staff for KITZ speaking early NOV at Salem.
HE said honestly that 28 will not solve anyproblems only make the gap a little smaller. that is because the 28 hike is looking at the latest shortfall figures (those in NOV02'), which will be updated later after 03' (now i guess). He said those numbers will show that the gap is getting bigger, so well basically stay in place with the shortfall. ALSO he said that even if the orginial shortfall numbers remain, this hike will only solve the problem for this fiscal year because the 5 year growth looks slow to recovery, so we'll be back here in a year

SO straight from his mouth the BEST we can hope for is 11 months of even, and then we are right back in it. THE worst we can get is higher taxes and no improvement at all (and all the whining that comes along). DOnt vote for this..we will have to cut programs sooner or later that is a FACT.


Oh yea this information was devulged during his pitch on why he wanted a Sales Tax..(great )

ORS

[Airborne]

NO NO NO, They do not use their budget that they have wisely, why should we give them more money to fix a problem they have wrongly created? Make them work with in the constraints they have. I know one local school that had their floors replaced when they were fine, the custodian told me if they didn't use the money it would be taken away for next year. Does that sound as if someone is not using a good "checks and balances system". And it's our money as homeowners and workers that they are mis-handling. Lets hold them accountable for their wrong doings now. Not after they get more of our hard earned dollars.........

[Jerry Dove]

Most of the above were good comments. Some facts and some fiction. I was in Gov. for 8 years as a county commissioner. I made a few dept. heads very mad by telling them they did not have to spend every dime in there budget. Some learned and some did not. Some are no longer county employees. The new Gov. talks a good story, now lets see if he will walk the talk. I voted for 28 to give them some breathing room. Just for information, State Legislatures make about $1.300.00 a month. Not much there to cut.

[Cool Texan]

Sure there is. Reduce the number of commissioners. And reduce the overall state staff. And delay the bridge project. And delay the other fruitless projects. And scale back the size of the Econ. Dev. group, as they are not performing....crap-can them all and replace them with fewer, but more effective, people.

This is a budget....plain and SIMPLE. Think I'm kidding? Put me in office...it will be balanced intelligently with no tax increases in 6 months.

[Straydog]

Cool Texan,

"No tax increases in six months!" You are a danged hero!!!

Cut the bridge projects = cut jobs.

Cut public employees = cut jobs.

Remember, our funding base relies on income taxes.

Cut the number of commissioners = huh???? :whazzup: Commissioners are County officials, not state..

I am really, really glad we elect our officials rather than appoint.

[Cool Texan]

Rogue....100% agreement. Its not just a numbers game. Its a numbers and priorities game. How much do you think would be cut from the budget ONLY by forcing the departments to do zero based budgeting? I'd bet a LOT.

From there, its about priorities. That is easy to determine.... get out and talk to people. Get inputs (not lobbyists). But you dont cut civil protection positions, you dont cut education, you dont cut medicaid. Environment....probably places to make reductions. Size of the government...definately, reduce the staff or move to a 4 day work week. Increase auto registration fees, increase DMV licensing fees, etc. You dont need an income tax....and you dont need a sales tax.

Just saying...if one of those guys in Salem would find a pair of brass...umm...you know where I am going, and step up to make tough decisions, and actually FIX the budget and make cuts and fundamentally change the way they work it, they could solve a LOT of their own problems. To simply ask for more money is idiotic.

I am voting no on 28. If you think that a band-aid will help a gunshot wound, vote yes. Its a judgement call, and I respect everyones rights to vote as they see fit.

That said...I look forward to when everyone can move past this discussion and start talking about fishing, beer, dogs, chasing women, etc again. iFish is more fun for that. :grin:

[Lured In]

If I were still an Oregonian I would have voted no without thought. I certainly do not wish to trade for your problems. OR has to find a way to deal with this and I honestly believe until the voters say, "find another way" or its YOUR job, things will not change.

Straydog...

Not sure where you get the idea that cutting bridge projects = cut jobs or that cutting public sector jobs is somehow bad. (if i read your last post correctly).

I heard the the new governor was proposing to hire 4000 state employees to work on the bridges. That was one of his solutions to solving the job problem.

So pull the string. In order to hire 4000 public sector employees how many private sector jobs does that take to pay for them? Lots! How much does that generate in additional tax revenue for the state? NONE!

The real answer is to bid out the projects to the private sector which will create more jobs (or at least more income for private compnanies) and more tax revenue for the state.

On slightly different note, it always amazes me that state/federal employees (any paid with tax dollars) pay income tax. Why? As someone on this board once said, its like being self employed. Creating more public sector jobs only accomplishes one thing from a tax standpoint. It increases the tax on those in the private sector.

[TheRogue]

I agree with the 0 based budgeting, as well as needing someone to stand up and put their foot down, as it were. Normally, 0 based budgeting is a very costly exercise and ends up being more of a hassle than it's worth with larger agencies, however, we've reached the point here where it HAS to be done. As for someone putting the foot down, well, we may get that from Kulongoski, he's travelled down that road fairly well so far, good for him. Much better than I had anticipated.

TR

[Mad Mikey]

This thread is so large I may have missed this but do people know that this tax is also retroactive?
You will be paying taxes on money already taxed.
Big time "NO" for me, time for some financial responsibility in Salem. It's a temporary fix at best but next time the budget rolls over what do you think will happen?
Lots of irresponsible programs that can be cut as noted in a few previous posts. Media and the government will put important stuff on the chopping block to sway opinion just to scare ya'.
No, No, No!!!

[Tempered Steel]

OK, yes, I do work for a (small) state agency. I don't earn what I could if I chose to live out of state and work for a large company, but I like the rural setting where I live and what I do, and the retirement plan for public employees is pretty good (temporary as that might be). So I have been a part of this agency for seven years.

I havent decided how I'm going to vote yet, although I have been told that my position may very well be cut and if I want to stay with the agency I will have to move to the west side and bump someone else out of a job. That will not happen. I am at my most marketable state of my carrer (young with experience), so finding a job somewhere else would be easy, but it will be somewhere I could live. Alaska, maybe?

I can certainly understand why the general public would vote 'no', because I agree that it probably won't fix squat in the long run. I don't intend to offend anyone here, but some things have been said, that I would like to respond to.

I read one thread that insinuated that public employees get too many 'perks'. If that is true, no one has told me where to pick up my share. There are NO perks to being a regular public employee. Legislators? Maybe. I don't know, but regular public employees are constantly reminded that they cannot accept anything for personal gain (including coupons, etc.). I dont have a problem with this, good idea.

A previous post stated:

Creating more public sector jobs only accomplishes one thing from a tax standpoint. It increases the tax on those in the private sector.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">What? I hope I misunderstand this. This sounds like one of those "I pay your salary..." statements. Well, I've got news for you. I pay your salary too, dude. Example: You own a fishing equipment store. I come in and buy a fishing pole with my hard earned salary. You have made more profit on that fishing pole than you would pay towards my salary in ten years!! If I buy a reel and a couple of jigs, you've made more money off of me than I made off your tax dollars for my entire career. This is not an exageration. Do the math. I did.

Having said that, there is waste in this states government, but the waste I see is high up the food chain where the decisions for cuts are made. Thats where the cuts SHOULD be, but where do you think they actually WILL be?

I have great respect for all the people on this board and would not offend on purpose. Time to go fishin'!!