AAhh, the Noble Timber Industry....

Straydog · 12-31-2002, 08:09 AM

this sounds very much like the part of the timber industry I grew up in yet some would have us believe it is all new, good and noble....

Yea, right....

Mill workers get shaft...

And we are supposed to trust these people with our watersheds, our water sources and our fish????

Of course, in the end according to the industry, it is all the environmental community's fault.

[ 12-31-2002, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

12-31-2002, 08:14 AM

It's not just the timber industry

Beaver93 · 12-31-2002, 08:22 AM

Do you believe that this behavior only exists at the EVIL management level in the Timber industry? Have you heard of Enron?

Straydog · 12-31-2002, 08:25 AM

Yo Beav,

No, I am not saying this type of behaviour is limited to the timber industry. What would lead you to assume I was?

I posted this because of the ongoing argument by Gutshotape that the "new" timber industry is honest, noble and trustworthy.

Perhaps you have missed our discussions on this topic.

Also, to my knowledge, Enron (yes, I have heard of them) and such have not helped decimate part of my industry, the Sportfishing industry, while the timber industry has. The same negative affects of the timber industry have touched everyone that fishes for Salmon and Steelhead, who are a large part of those that this board draws.

If a person chooses to rant on one part of a problem it does not mean they believe that element is the only problem that person is aware of.

Have you heard the adage concerning when one assumes???

Please do not drag ME into it when U choose to assume.

[ 12-31-2002, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Point-of-Sale Clerk · 12-31-2002, 09:19 AM

Straydog

Slinging mud in an effort to counter GSA�s noble view of the Timber Industry, regardless of your aim, soils us all.

*** Clerk

Straydog · 12-31-2002, 09:53 AM

***,

1. Some of us have soiled themselves to the point that anything I post will mostly go unnoticed.

2. Please explain to me why, in your view, posting a news article articulating my opinion that the timber industry is not as noble as some would have us us believe is slinging mud yet you taking a negative poke at ODFW at almost every opportunity is, I guess, not considered slinging mud!?!?! At least I offer some facts to bond my mud, while you offer mostly one sided, negative opinions. (opinion being the operative word)

Or perhaps you can produce a news article articulating your espoused view that most any ODFW employee is an incompetent dolt on the dole. Please do if you can..

Or, perhaps it is ok for you to sling mud just no one else?? :whazzup: [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

As soon as you clean my mud off of yourself, please entlighten me.

BTW, I guess given your post it is ok for me to ask that you stop slinging mud at ODFW because I have mostly found them to be just like you and I, hard working people trying to make a living with the tools they have been provided. Your mud slinging is making us all look bad in the eyes of those that manage our resource.

I will quit if you will. :grin:

[ 12-31-2002, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Point-of-Sale Clerk · 12-31-2002, 10:02 AM

Just because I do it does not mean it is OK for you.

Remember, you are the respectable, upstanding, above board one, where as I am the sneaky, underhanded, sly one.
[img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

Straydog · 12-31-2002, 10:08 AM

Oh yea! [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

The old 'do as I say, not as I do' syndrome!

Remember though, I got my news article the upstanding way, right off the paper's website, no hacking or sneaking for this dog!

[ 12-31-2002, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

TheRogue · 12-31-2002, 10:26 AM

I don't recall GSA ever using the word "noble"...

The biggest change is not the companies themselves, it's the rules and regulations that they must operate under, if they're going to remain in business. Being good to their employees, unfortunately, isn't in the rule book.

I do understand the point you're trying to make here. It's just a cheap shot way to do it.

TR

Straydog · 12-31-2002, 10:44 AM

TR,

I really don't get why this is considered a cheap shot way to make my point that just becuase the rules are in place dosen't mean everyone can be trusted?

I didn't put the word noble in quotes on purpose but would hope we could agree that that word is a fair description of the attitude GSA conveys of the industry in his pro timber arguments.

I am not trying to be antagonistic when I ask why you think this is a cheap shot. It was not made up. It was not untruthful, or at least no one from the company said it was untruthful.
I posted it in the general discussion section.

I always thought a cheap shot was something that was against the rules or dishonest. Can you help me here? :whazzup:

[ 12-31-2002, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

12-31-2002, 10:53 AM

It just looked like news to me :depressed: I don't see why we're getting our underwear in a bunch over this.

It's kind of like who profited the most from the Klamath Basin water going down the canyon?
There was a lot of very high priced electricity sold that this water generated (Enron?). That and all of the low price energy (from the farmers not running their pumps) that was sold to California at MUCH HIGHER prices.

It wasn't for the fish that Bush allowed this to happen.

TheRogue · 12-31-2002, 02:24 PM

Rather than posting this as a horrible example of how a company treats it's employees(which it is, and just one of many lately

), you turned it into an anti-logging post. That's what I meant by a cheap shot.

Straydog · 12-31-2002, 03:19 PM

TR,

Ok, I see your point. You're right I did and I now understand how it looks like a cheap shot. Thanks for clarifying.

My delivery was poor.... :blush: I apologize.

What I should have explained was my reason for making it a logging post was to point out the mentality of the operatives of this industry. I am not saying they are all crooked as these people apparently are.

What I am saying though is this is an example of some of the people that are, as big business (ie. industry) influencing our elected officials and the policy they have and will be implementing in our forests.

Remember the timber industry in this region came up with a million dollar campaign contribution for GW. These are some of the people that are involved in this lobbying, either directly or financially.

I have been giving this some thought while splitting wood and marveling at the dynamics of my creek as it makes such dramatic changes in its course through my property. My footbridge is going to be in need of some serious digging but it is way cool to see this much water again after having so little the last two years!!

Anyway, I think I am a bit paranoid about the way the timber and much of our habitat enchancment and restoration could go in the next few years, but with good reason.

First let me be clear that I very much agree that the pendulum has swung too far to the preservation side and we need to be harvesting more timber off of public ground. I fully believe that.

On the other hand, I read guest opinions from the timber industry making false claims as to the amount of wood to be salvaged in the Bisquit fire area. I sit on a committee with the person that wrote that and believe he knows full well he was skewing the number of acres to potentialy be harvested.

Again, this is a person influencing policy.

My district just elected, without my vote, Dennis Richardson to the legislature. His son was on a committee with me and we were reviewing potential projects. He replied to a $1,500 fish habitat project by stating "it's a freakin' fish, it will adjust." Richardson was recruited by Jason Atkinson who has lobbied hard against the removal of Savage Rapids Dam and has shown little if any support of natural resource conservation measures. Jason Atkinson's dad Perry, soon to be ex-chair of the Or. Repub. party, left a recorded message on my phone stating we had to "fight the envirowacos that were essentially terrorists wanting to save Salmon and Steelhead at the expense of the timber and Ag. industry. These afterall are just fish!" They are of the mentality that a fish is a fish. These guys are all setting policy.

The district next to me just elected Gordon Anderson as our representative. He has said he wants to return Jopsephine County to the days of having 55 mills operating. He has lobbied hard against the removal of Savage Rapids Dam and has publicly called people "liar" for saying the dam kills fish.
He will be involved in setting policy and was helped by the timber industry in his campaign.

I sat in a timber symposium with Bill Fischer, Legislator from the Roseburg district. He said he wants to take us back to the continual "one log load" of timber removal he witnessed as a young man along the North Umpqua. (He scoffed when reminded those trees are simply no longer available, we got another 50 years or so for them be renewed)

These are the people that are making and implementing policy and being elected and influenced by the folks that will let employees go to heck in a hand basket while they live the good life.

These are the people and resulting policy that Gutshot and those of his way of thinking seem to think we should trust our future to and be glad that everything is

I am very motivated to not let that happen.

[ 12-31-2002, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Point-of-Sale Clerk · 12-31-2002, 04:31 PM

Straydog

It is this type of detail I listen to the most

Thank you

The Fishing Geek · 12-31-2002, 09:49 PM

Thanks for straightening this one out, StrayDog. I completely understand the frustration that you feel with is happening "up in them thar hills", but your original post suggesting that this was status quo for the industry was about as off-target as pointing to the snagging debacles that happen every fall and saying that is what all anglers are like. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the trustees mentioned in the article were probably not even real timber folks, if you know what I mean.

Aye, it is greed itself that rots the human soul. That is the tie that binds these folks.

12-31-2002, 09:56 PM

Geek,
I've been employed in the wood products industry off and on for 25 years and this is average corporate behavior.

riverrat · 01-01-2003, 04:50 AM

sd......i applaude your drive and efforts in protecting our renewable resources and thank you for your passion and persistance to bringing the wrong doings of the major wood producing companies to light....i agree with a better approach to balancing timber taken off of public lands vs the ecoterrorists extremes of no logging...i would like to make a distinction between the corporate offices of a major wood producer and the logger....some of the major companies do their own logging, but most put out to bid the majority of logging on their land or sub the sales on state and federal lands....and this is where the rubber meets the road....the loggers are trying to protect their jobs and to house, feed, educate and provide for a future for themselves.....whereas most of the major companies are strictly profit motivated and if not diversified will do anything to protect themselves, usually at the expense of their employees whether directly or by any other means which will maintain profitability.......my last point is the common sense approach not to place the logger at fault when the corporate office screws up any more than to blame the lineman for enrons dibacle.....please remember there is a distiction between most of us who are conservationists looking out for the good of all the environment, from timber to fish, to the extremists who are self-proclaimed environmentalist, to those who use the natural resources for their profit mongering and corporate greed

RvW · 01-01-2003, 05:09 AM

Straydog, I admire your ambition to make a difference.

Just a few questions, how can common folk like myself get involved in more productive ways?

An example: Simpson timber company decided to herbicide the banks of Neskowin Creeks headwaters not long ago...TWICE. I had heard that it was completely unecesary but could find no ways to effectively object.
Neskowin creek runs directly into the ocean, and is home to many steelies, Ive seen and heard of a good Salmon spawn here too, which begs the question, how does Simpson Timber get away with this? How can I make a difference in an effort to keep pesticides and herbicides out of the equation.

I am not opposed to timber harvest however I AM opposed to greed and mismanagement of the timber industry when it effects more than just the trees.

I completely agree with The Geek, climbing the ladder of monetary superiority more often involves stepping on a lot of toes to get there, the timber industry, though not as a whole, has stepped on mine when they decided to herbicide.

"Take what you need and leave the land as it was"

How far are we going to stray from this concept before our "needs" can no longer be met?

[ 01-01-2003, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

GutshotApe · 01-01-2003, 06:16 AM

Happy New Year, everyone!

Chirosis-of-river - One thing you could do is to educate yourself about what the upstream landowners are doing, and why. What herbicide is being used? Just how toxic is it? How is it being applied? How close to the creek is it being applied? Are the FPA rules being adhered to? From my experience, the herbicides used in forestry are relatively benign with respect to fish and aquatic organisms, most applicators do their best to keep the spray out of the water, and the landowners don't spend the money on herbicides for the fun of it. If you suspect misuse then contact the local state forestry office and file a complaint.

Nobody bats an eye when 500,000 suburban tract house owners pour on the Weed n Feed on 500,000 suburban lawns. If the label says use 1 oz. per gallon, the average homeowners will put in 2 oz and then apply it at three times the proper rate. When done, they dump the excess in the gutter. Then, there are do-it-yourself oil changers, many of whom dump the used oil in the alleyway or backyard. And, the thousands and thousands of acres of impervious surfaces people cause (roofs, driveways, roads, etc.). And polluted runoff from roads & highways, etc. etc.

All this stuff goes on all the time and is mostly ignored. Yet, the forest landowner, who makes one herbicide application per site in 50 years, is criticized by people who don't really know what is going on and who let their imaginations and emotions rule.

Straydog - I don't want to engage in another timber industry fight [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img] with you but I do become annoyed when I read generic, gratituous slams of the industry. It would be different, maybe, if you didn't have a dog in the fight. But the sport fishing industry is anything but an innocent party when it comes to fish declines and fish politics.

Many - if not most - sport fishers cheat from time to time. Not all the time, not in every way - but most (that's over 50%) people I know will intentionally break the rules now & then if they can get away with it - and I'll bet your circle of acquaintences is no different. For some, breaking the rules is more fun than the fishing itself. Many sport anglers trespass and litter the streambanks with trash. Many sport anglers keep snagged salmon, exceed the limit, or commit other egregious acts. Others pull oversize sturgeon out of the water for a "quick pic" oblivious or uncaring about possible harm to the fishery. Etc, etc. etc.

And sport fishing tackle salesmen are not above supplying big snag-ready treble hooks to vendors where there is no use for them other than snagging.

I don't condemn all sport anglers - just the wrong-doers. And others shouldn't condemn the entire timber industry because of the actions of a few or because of things they misinterpret or don't understand.

You know, for someone who claims to be a republican, you sure sound a lot like a democrat!

RvW · 01-01-2003, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Many - if not most - sport fishers cheat from time to time. Not all the time, not in every way - but most (that's over 50%) people I know will intentionally break the rules now & then if they can get away with it - and I'll bet your circle of acquaintences is no different. For some, breaking the rules is more fun than the fishing itself. Many sport anglers trespass and litter the streambanks with trash. Many sport anglers keep snagged salmon, exceed the limit, or commit other egregious acts. Others pull oversize sturgeon out of the water for a "quick pic" oblivious or uncaring about possible harm to the fishery. Etc, etc. etc.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Where do you get your numbers? Its been my experience that one fisherman will not only call a paochers number, but ridicule the hell out of them and make an effort to right a wrong if at all possible.
I take offense to the use of the word "most", I have met many fisherman over the last 20 years, and I would refer to "most" of them as decent, law abiding anglers.

The few poachers or "cheaters" I have run into have a real good reason to look over thier shoulder after a dose of cirrhosis.

As far as the types of herbicides used here at neskowin creek, I would think that if it kills vegitation, its not going to have a very positive effect on the aquatic life, and the water systems vegitation either. Though I have only solicited the opinion of one fellow angler/farmer. His research, and knowledge prompted several signs of protest along the banks of the creek.

The bottom line is...there are more environmentally freindly applications for many of these things that (assumably) effect wildlife habitat, yet for the sake of a dollar or two, they seem to be last thing on the minds of those who are motivated by that dollar or two.

I have to wonder if any research at all is done to find long term effects of these herbicides, hell, maybe this is just another myth as to what is killing our fish...am I barking up the wrong "tree" by questioning it? Are the poachers the ones who deplete the numbers?

I recall a visit to Smith River in Reedsport years ago, when you couldnt get a line wet without hooking a striper...you cant buy a fish now.

Damn poachers!

[ 01-01-2003, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]

Otolith · 01-01-2003, 07:56 AM

I don't want to throw any fuel on this fire, but with regards to this quote:

++++++++++++++++++++
Also, to my knowledge, Enron (yes, I have heard of them) and such have not helped decimate part of my industry, the Sportfishing industry, while the timber industry has.
++++++++++++++++++++

... actually, Enron has had a big impact on our sportfishing industry. Their manipulation of the western power market is a major reason why BPA is now in a financial bind and has to look for alternate methods to get fish around the damn so they can hold back water for power (income) generation. Just thought you should know that.

GutshotApe · 01-01-2003, 12:12 PM

Straydog - The Talent Irrigation district problem involved a "herbicide" but that's the end of any comparison with forestry use of herbicides. The TID situation was an aquatic herbicide dumped at heavy levels directly into the irrigation canals to control aquatic weeds. Can't remember the name of the one they used, but as a class, aquatic herbicides are among the most toxic (they have to be because of the immediate dilution that occurs when used). The Talent Irrigation people MISUSED their herbicide and it was prematurely released into fish bearing stream killing several hundred fry and pre-smolts. Not good. But it had nothing to do with forestry use of herbicides.

And, I'm not condemning all anglers as cheats and poachers. But, think back over the years of your fishing & hunting and that of your friends and work acquaintences. Never broke the law? Come on

.

If you can say you and over half your friends are innocent and never once broke the rules, then good for you [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] . I see and hear of plenty of intentional rule breaking. It happens all the time. Some people do it whenever they get the chance, some never do. But like I first said, many people have done it and will when it suits them. Don't believe me - just ask the next OSP game cop you encounter.

RvW · 01-01-2003, 12:39 PM

Just a footnote...I have run into far more people who do not KNOW the rules and regulations of sport fishing more often than those who violate them intentionally.
However, I seriously doubt these people tip the scales any closer to 50%.

I think I will approach the advice given here the same way I feel timber harvesting debates should be heard.

With compromise and equal consideration to all points of view.

I think fishermen who are capable of noticing effects of poor logging habits (which includes over harvesting!) deserve a to be recognized as a very strong voice in the debate. Some of these effects are extremely recognizable even to those who dont have a clue how drastic an effect on the fish they have, or those trying to turn a blind eye.

01-01-2003, 12:54 PM

Go to the bridge hole on the Rogue and it is more like 75%.

TheRogue · 01-01-2003, 02:11 PM

Yikes!!! I bet the cops made a killing after you took pictures, wrote down license plates, and made phone calls about all the illegal activity going on at that hole, Keta :whazzup: :whazzup:

TR

01-01-2003, 03:21 PM

They had a nice looking undercover (barely)female trooper come down and watch them fish last spring. She left and then came back in uniform with help and issued many tickets :smile: .
This was reliable second hand information as I won't fish there.

SHLEPROCK · 01-01-2003, 03:21 PM

Well, Another timber thread?
I'm no expert on any thing and don't want to want to take sides on the issue because I am to uninformed. But, With all the sawmills shuting down, who is going to prosess the timber when the forests become mature again?
I keep hearing that they are not taking timber from the National Forests, I thought that they were Just restricting the building of new roads? Have they already harvested all the mature timber that is accessable from existing roads?
With the shrinking amont of mature timber and the growing amount of forests in the reproduction stage is our wildlife going to run out of feeding areas in another ten to fifteen years?
There are three kinds of people
Ones that make things happen
Ones that watch things happen
Ones that say" what happened"

WHATS HAPPENING?

I read a report from the the tax assessors office the other day and it sound to me like they are restructuring the way that timber lands are assessed since so little timber is being harvested.

riverrat · 01-01-2003, 03:25 PM

wow....GARYK....amazing how you can analyze, assume, then not only misquoted me but fabricated your own self-imposed **** -an-bull.....what i said was a balance was needed by logging some public lands.....not ****** them.....SD.....again you have a lot of good points, but why do you insist on blaming the loggers?.....their errounious efforts are a direct result of corporate managment, engineers, and surveyors who lay out the roads that are being built not the logger who has the job of road building.....GSA.....a whole lot of eyes are being batted about cleaning up the storm water run-off....in the city of portland alone $1 billion dollars are being spent on the combined sewer overflows, to clean the willamette river....this is above and beyond the strict adherence to state legislated title 10 which has been incorporated into city law that reduces silt particles to 1/2 cubic foot from leaving a job site, either by tracking, airborne or washed into the storm drains....other examples are oil seperators, sedemintation manholes, etc......multiply this with the tri county's obligation to the environment and it is staggering, however a continued alliance by all with a common sense approach will help the environment, because it is a never ending duty of all to conserve and be stewards of our public resources......

Straydog · 01-01-2003, 03:55 PM

riverrat,

I'm sorry to keep focusing on the loggers. You're right for the most part of what you say in my opinion.

Two excuses..... first and foremost I am guilty of using the words logger and logging as an easy way of saying what you did. The managers and foresters that make the decisions and such. I will try to be more careful about that.

My second problem here is the fact that I grew up around more than just a few people assocatied with logging companies and loggers that are indeed a part of the problem.

We have one heck of a mess both upstream and downstream of my property on a trib of the Rogue that have been left in crappy shape by local logging companies that owned the land. The place most recent, below me was done about 5 years ago and gets worse every winter. The logging family that took the timber was warned of illegal behavior after my neighbor threw a fit about them running cats in the creek.

Some local logging companies have had problems with stopping their cuts at boundries and fined for stealing timber. The BLM tells us many are never caught and they really don't know how much is stolen on a typical sale.

So, I guess my life experience tells me there are, in the logging community, just as in the sportinggoods sales community, both good and bad ones.

Gutshot,

You mentioned in one post that I sound like a democrat. Yes, I am pretty much at odds with much of the Republican party, especially in Oregon these days.

I am a Tom McCall Republican that feels the party has moved away from many of the values that drew me into it as a teen. While Tom and I would have also disagreed on the management of timber, I was very much attracted to his conservation ethic otherwise. I am pretty proud of a couple of pictures I have of myself interviewing him for our school newspaper as I really admired the guy.

Straydog · 01-01-2003, 04:02 PM

Keta,

The local OSP Troopers hate having to go the Hatchery Hole. In fact, they get gill flares when anything takes place that means they have more to do.

There is a great effort by the Cole Rivers Hatchery manager to secure funding for a handicap fishing platform up there. The only negative input at the meeting I attended was from the local OSP Troopers (husband and wife) worried about additional chance of conflict and needed enforcement.

GutshotApe · 01-01-2003, 07:28 PM

Straydog - You can always find examples of bad behavior. Logger, fisherman, financier, politician..........doesn't matter, people are people and some will bend & break the rules if they think nobody's watching. An extreme example of some gyppo running his D-7 thru the creek doesn't accurately portray the timber industry anymore than some slack-jawed redneck lined up at the local snagging hotspot exemplifies the average angler.

Check out that clearcut yet?

Straydog · 01-01-2003, 08:07 PM

GSA,

The company I am refering to is no 'gyypo' outfit, it is a large family run operation who's name I will refrain from posting.

No, I haven't been traveling much of late and don't intend to make a special trip to look the clear cut over any time soon.

garyk · 01-01-2003, 09:57 PM

Hello again Riverrat,

Here's your verbatim quote: "i agree with a better approach to balancing timber taken off of public lands vs the ecoterrorists extremes of no logging..."

Crystal clear that you equate opposing public lands logging with eco-terroism.

NO mis-analysis on my part - just your very own words.

Rogue, the streams in my home county -Columbia, are a wreck. Except for a little bit of Clatsop State Forest, it's pretty much all industrial forest land. They've pretty much been written-off. You don't need data and statistics just a little visit after any rain. I wish it were otherwise, I'd like to fish a lot closer to home.

The 'responsible use' that GSA declares comes at the expense of every other value. Hardly responsible, not sustainable and severely impacts both working people and the land that supports us all.

Here's to a better new year.

garyk

garyk · 01-01-2003, 11:02 PM

Hey Riverrat,

You might choose what you say a bit more carefully.

Opposing the **** of public lands, or even opposing commercial logging on them doesn't make one an 'ecoterrorist' as you posted.

I'm really thankful our National Forests don't look like the private forests of Columbia County -- and I'm doing my part to ensure that doesn't happen.

Cheers!

gk

GutshotApe · 01-01-2003, 11:31 PM

garyk - Do what you think is right [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] .......but remember, most of Columbia county is privately owned (and is some of the best timberland in the world) and is being responsibly used to produce forest resources we all use daily.

Right now there is virtually no timber production on public land in western Oregon (lands containing the best and most potentially productive forest soils in the entire national forest system). Modifications to the

bureaucratic maze of overlapping federal regs used by enviros to stop management are being implemented by the Bush administration and we may yet see some federal land logging. Even though the amounts proposed are tiny compared to the sustainable potential, its a start. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Cirrhosis - I was very careful to say "many" , not "all". And not all the time and not all rules. But I'll stand by what I said. Many if not most anglers have broken some of the rules, continue to do so when they can, and will in the future.

Sure, there are many ethical anglers out there but it seems they are outnumbered by those who will keep the extra fish or two, will use barbed hooks when the rule says barbless, will keep that salmon that is hooked outside the lip, will allow all rods to fish after people in the boat are limited out, will lose their punchcard and want a new one, etc, etc, WHEN THEY THINK THEY WON'T BE CAUGHT. Its the same mentality that excuses driving 70 mph in a 65 mph zone.

Straydog · 01-01-2003, 11:45 PM

Cirrhosis,

I would suggest becoming involved in your local Watershed council if there is one in the area and I would be suprised if there weren't.

This is a good source of tons of resources to help you become more educated on herbicides and their application as well as a communication bridge with your Co. Commissioners as well as many other community members.

I don't know about the case you describe but do know that the Talent Irrigation dist. was fined heavily and forced to stop using a herbicide they had been using for a long time..... seems someone finally traced them to all of the dead fish floating around the creek.

Further, letters to the editor are an excellant way to get people thinking and becoming more aware of what they are doing and the effects of their actions.

GSA,

Posting a specific article about a specific incident is hardly generic in my mind however it is apparent we see many things quite diffferently.

I find it interesting that you point out it annoys you to read 'generic, gratituous slams' of the timber industry as a prelude to launching into a generic, gratituous slam of the sportfishing industry and all of it's participants.

I am sure that the readers of this board are enlightened to know that 50% or more of us, by your generic slam, are liers, litterers, cheats and thieves. Your faith in mankind is staggering.

Let me make a comparison using your numbers...... if indeed over 50% of the people in sportfishing are crooked, does it not stand to reason that the same margins could apply to any industry since sportfishing encompasses such a broad cross section of society? Could it not then be said that over 50% of the timber industry is also tainted. You have been telling me for some time that it is just a 'few bad apples' and they are dealt with by law. So, which is it, a few bad apples or over 50%?

Further, I will agree that there are plenty of fishers that break the rules. (I will not come close to agreeing to your 50% or more number but that is ok) If a fisher person breaks a rule and kills a wild fish, that is that one fish and its potential offspring that is lost.
When an errant logging job creates unstable slopes or logging roads are misplaced and create undo erosion, the damage is ongoing for years and years and the potential for losing fish occurs every wet season over and over and over unitl we the tax payers pay to have it fixed or removed.

If I litter the banks, it can be picked up and removed in short order. If a logging job tears up the land or removes trees too close to the streams or dosen't skid responsibly, the damage is recurring over and over for decades.

The point is, to compare the damage of individual people to those of logging operations is not valid, in my mind. Not to say it is right for the individual to break the rules, just saying the consequences are generally much, much less and much shorter lived.

As for your comments about storm drain pollution and such, you are again dead wrong. Lots and lots of people are paying attention and working to bring about change in the way people do things in urban settings. I have spent too many hours painting strom drains and educating people to accept your comment that no one is pay attention.

It sounds as if you could benefit from Watershed council volunteering as well.

As for your comments concerning treble hooks...... I would say don't quit your day job but I guess I am too late for that, but there are lots of large trebles that are used for legitimate fishing circumstances as well as yes, some snagging too.

Since these are indeed legal and used legally, I have no guilt in making them available to consumers.

Many would argue that there is no use for small, concealable hand guns except to kill people. They would be as wrong as you are but for sake of conversation, using your example of treble hooks, are you ready and willing to suggest we should outlaw small, conceable hand guns because the ignorant say
they have no use except illegal use?

You may want to take that one up on the hunting board..........

Otolith,

You're right, I missed that connection, thanks for pointing that one out!

[ 01-01-2003, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

TheRogue · 01-01-2003, 11:55 PM

COTR....it would be a good thing to check out, if for nothing than your own information!! Remember, 2-4-D used to be the great thing out there....until we learned what it did over time. My intuition tells me that it's probably not real bad stuff, but I honestly have no clue!! And, honestly, I'm opposed to herbicide applications as a hunter....lack of browse is a major contributor to the decline of the blacktail deer in the coast range. That being said.....because of the insanely cheap lumber prices coming out of Canada (NAFTA

), a timberland owner needs to do everything possible to maximize production.

I believe there is the Neskowin/Nestucca Watershed Council, that should have the information you want??

GSA.... I completely agree about the urban issue! Remember the post about dumping a 5 gallon bucket of laundry detergent on a roof to get rid of moss! :whazzup: :whazzup: Quite a few supporting posts on that one until I popped up and you supported. Most urban area dwellers won't think twice about what they do to water quality by having a pretty lawn, a paved driveway, or cheap tires...

As for the sportsfishers cheating, well, mostly I agree with you on everything GSA....but that's pretty insulting to put someone using a barbed hook in barbless waters (or similar infraction), with an illegal action by a timber company.....not only is it apples to oranges, but "50%"???? Would you then say that more than 50% of logging/timber companies commit violations of the FPA??

garyk.....I'm still waiting for some data on the "horrible siltation" and other violations of the FPA you've been claiming for a long time. You're using the Columbia County as an example of what will happen to federal lands, when, in reality, there is NO LEGAL WAY this could ever happen. The large majority of National Forest timberland is locked up from logging, and will be permanently.

One last thing about timber workers, whether it be truck drivers, mill workers, choker setters, etc. If you were to take a survey, I would venture to guess that over 75% of these people hunt and fish.....regularly. What do you suppose that same survey would show in an urban area?? Maybe 2%?? Demonizing the people out there on the ground as uncaring, anti-envronmental, corporate rapists is so wrong it makes me sick sometimes to listen to it.

Maybe if I would've caught a fish this morning, I'd be in a better mood?

:grin: :grin:

TR

[ 01-01-2003, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: TheRogue ]

riverrat · 01-02-2003, 03:11 AM

garyk.....you can oppose all logging on public lands without being an ecoterrorist.....to make it crystal clear.....i would rather have some timber taken off public lands, (logging is a replacement of natural forest fires)...vs the ecoterrorists extreme approach, (spiking trees, destroying private property, destroying public property), of no logging.....hope this helps you to understand what i wrote, by the way where did i say that i supported the ****** of public lands?

GutshotApe · 01-02-2003, 06:18 AM

garyk - Oh yeah, the Nehalem River is a "wreck"?

The western half of Columbia County is mostly private timberland and constitutes the upper Nehalem watershed. The last I heard, the Nehalem was full of fish (the biggest controversy was whether or not guides and sport anglers were killing too many chinook in tidewater).
Not aware of any serious unaddressed habitat problems. What are you referring to? :whazzup:

Straydog · 01-02-2003, 07:45 AM

Riverrat,

While certain logging techniques can mimic natural fire to certain degrees, I would hope that if we learned anything in the last 100 years it would be that no, logging does not replace natural fires.

As GSA has pointed out, it comes close but, in my mind, a big reason we have many of the fuel loads we do is because of past logging mistakes.

Remember, Smokey Bear was invented by the Forest Sevice which for decades was in the business of manageing forests for timber harvest. If you don't believe the timber industry had a ton to do with promoting fire suppression I have this bridge I would like to peddle.

Many around these parts like to point out how loggers and mill workers used to be sent to fight fires. That is true but it certainly wasnt to protect the forests for their watershed values beyond the commercial value of the timber. It was to protect the raw material of the industry. I am not saying this necessarily bad or dosen't make sense, I am saying members of a certain industry are blowing saw dust when the brag about the fact that timber industry folks were so caring about the woods that they would fight fires and say we need to start logging more so more people will be in the woods when the next fires starts.

Further, remember that several species in our Western forests require fire to reproduce, thinning does not give us that.

I guess I just live too close to the deception that is taking place around the Rogue basin over the timber Issue right now and have spent too many years seeing first hand the problems we have created and are creating still, new and improved FPA or not.

It seems one side is extreme in their no cut stance and the other side is extreme in their "trust me (again...) it will be ok because we are now responsible resource extractors."

Having been burned (no pun intended) by one side, it is only natural to lean a bit to the other side to avoid more scars.

[ 01-02-2003, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Nuttinbutnet · 01-02-2003, 09:49 AM

The bottom line is that we have an unquenchable thirst for "Timber Based Products". Did you know that 35mm film is a "Timber Based Product"? New rules and regs which severely hampered the availability of Public land logs caused timber value to go up and entice many private landholders to harvest timber on their property. At about the same time, High-Tech businesses made serious investments in this state. So much so that the the lost Timber Revenues were not noticable. With High_tech revenues down the last couple of years, Timber Reciepts are sorely missed. And the last two things. Timber regulations have puy more timber workers out of work than anything else, and having worked in this industry for 23 years, I consider myself to be a very honorable person.

GutshotApe · 01-02-2003, 05:21 PM

Straydog - I don't think there was ever much question that the main purpose of fire suppression in western forests was to protect standing, green timber until the stands could be logged (or set aside in reserves). Human populations result in increased wildfire frequencies so it made sense to suppress at least the additional human-caused fires. In Ponderosa pine forests some underburning was done but that practice won't work in westside Doug-fir forests.

One reason for increased frequency and intensity of fires in western Oregon forests (among other places) is that post-logging slash burning, once routinely done to eliminate the fuel load and prepare the site for reforestation, became state-regulated and prohibitively expensive and obtaining state permission to put smoke into the airshed became next to impossible most days of the year. So, many thousands of acres were replanted without disposing of the slash and therefore remain susceptible to wildfire for many, many years into the new rotation. The ironic thing is that eventually Oregonians, instead of seeing slash fire smoke off in the distance, will breath wildfire smoke when the planted slash units subsequently burn. :depressed:

And, yes, once upon a time if a fire broke out the state fire warden had only to whistle and there would be crews of nearby loggers with D-7s that would show up with their corks & hardhats on, ready to go. That's how many westside fires once were fought - and put out. Now, we have to wait for the federal and/or state

bureaucracy's wheels to slowly turn, allowing many fires that once would have been caught small to now turn into huge mega-Biscuit fires that cost millions to merely contain, let alone put out.

Alligator · 01-02-2003, 05:44 PM

The only good tree is a stump! :shocked: