New "Concentration Camps" re-edited by Keta

[The Fishing Geek]

Oh, but it is WAR Keta. Civil rights are useless when we're at WAR.

[CATCH AND EAT]

Tell me this was not Gray Davis's idea

[DanS]

Oh, but I feel so SAFE now.

[lost_sailor]

If we would've voted for Strom Thurmond back in 1948 ...

[GutshotApe]

It sounds like only those who are in violation of immigration laws are being detained. If so, what's the problem? :whazzup:

History revisionists would have us believe the 1942 internment of Japanese and Japanese-Americans was evidence of racial bias and was uncalled for. That may be true in large part but there was at least one incident that may have encouraged the govt. to implement the move:

On Dec.7, 1941 a Japanese submarine waited off the tip of Niihau, the westernmost Hawaiian island, about 110 miles WNW of Pearl Harbor. Any Japanese plane damaged and unable to make it back to its carrier was to head for Niihau and ditch next to the sub for pickup. A Japanese Zero was hit over Oahu and losing fuel so the pilot headed WNW. When he got to Niihau he couldn't see any submarine so he crash landed in the pineapple fields of Niihau.

The island was inhabited mostly by 1st and 2nd generation Japanese and Japanese-American farmers. Two of them saw the Zero land and went over to the wrecked plane. The pilot was injured but conscious, and the two Hawaiians helped him out of the plane. He told them that Japan had just clobbered the US fleet at Pearl and they were going to win the war against the US - and they'd better get on the winning side. He asked for their help in taking over the island. The two traitors agreed and they headed for the island constable's office. There they got into a fight, shot the constable with the pilot's gun, but the constable was a big guy and eventually killed the Zero pilot and one of his accomplices and captured the other.

This incident was hushed up for decades and has only recently received any publicity. And the place I saw it (The History Channel website) has now removed their account from the website. :whazzup:

[outdoor.spec.ops]

I wonder if Osoma volunteered to go down there?

[DanS]

So a couple traitors make all Japanese-Americans traitors?

Pretty slippery slope to try to stand on there, GSA.

[fishing is life]

what they are doing to these immigrants is racial profiling. is it wrong or right? they are not locking these people up in camps. it is a bit questionable. it easy for the people who are not being scrutinized to say it is ok. i think as long as they detain the illegal ones it is ok. the sad thing is the countries listed do not include saudi arabia. thats where most of 9/11 hijackers came from. way to go Ashcroft.

[GutshotApe]

DanS - You should re-read my post, carefully this time. The point is, I guess, that until mid- or late-1942 the outcome of the Pacific war was in doubt. With thousands of Japanese nationals and recent immigrants living on the west coast and the threat of invasion of Japanese troops, it apparently made sense to "round 'em up". The fact that US citizens were interned is reprehensible - but it is important to note that only coastal Japanese and Japanese-americans were interned. Those living inland were not. If it was a racist plot I'd think all Asians would have been targeted and they would have been kept locked up until 1945. However, most were released once the invasion threat diminished.

Unfortunately, we are now faced with several million people of mid-eastern descent living in the US and some of them are undoubtedly enemy agents and members of sleeper cells. Ten years from now it will be crystal clear what our present and near-term course of action should be. But right now, as in early 1942, anything could happen and it is foolish to rule out taking all appropriate measures to protect the US people. Enforcing immigration, passport and visa laws seems like an appropriate measure. And since 19 out of 19 terrorists on 9/11/01 were Arabs, concentrating immigration, passport and visa enforcement on members of that group seems rational to me. :smile:

[ 12-19-2002, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

[DanS]

It doesn't matter to me where they lived, it was still wrong.

A nation's character is tested in times of war and we should be embarassed that we didn't have more character. **** supporters used the same "we're at war" line of reasoning for the atrocities they committed, too.

The key words in your whole post is "take appropriate action", and in my mind interning American citizens is not appropriate.

"Those who would trade temporal safety for essential freedom deserve to be neither free nor safe".

Ben Franklin knew it, and it's still true today.

Now, if the people that have been detained are here illegally, then they should be deported. But, why stop at illegals of Middle-Eastern descent? If you're not taking the same action against ALL illegals, then it's a racist policy.

[ 12-19-2002, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]

[GutshotApe]

Dan - You sure have a knack of jumping to conclusions and making erroneous inferences sometimes! [Edit: Looks like you deleted something in your edit.]

I wasn't around in 1942 but my parents were and they have told me of the fear of invasion that swept the west coast back then. I'm not trying to justify the Japanese and Japanese-American internment camps - I'm only pointing out that there were reasons for them that made sense to many at the time. So spare me the righteous indignation, please. I said the internment of citizens was reprehensible. What part of that don't you understand? :whazzup:

In the current situation, as I understand it, only immigration law violators are being detained. Yes, plenty of other aliens are here, too, but so far no airliners have been flown into skyscrapers by Mexican nationals. If we had unlimited resources I'd be fine with detaining and deporting all illegals of any stripe - but we don't have unlimited resources so we need to use what we have in the most effective way to deal with the threat. If we can do it and maintain all our freedoms, fine. If we need to step on a few toes and violate a few rights in order to prevent more 9/11s, then that's a price most people would pay.

This isn't a game, unfortunately. :depressed:

[ 12-19-2002, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

The bottom line is "Innocent until proven guilty".

We were fighting Germany and Italy also. Why didn't we round up German and Italian Americians and toss them into concentration camps.

100% of the murders in Klamath Falls this century were done by illegal alens (Mexician).
Do we pick up all of the Americians of Mexician decent and jail them?

I feel that you can't trust any Muslim, but that doesn't give the government the right to trample their civil rights.

[ 12-19-2002, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[ultralight]

I'm totally shocked that keta's got this one correct

[DanS]

I said the internment of citizens was reprehensible. What part of that don't you understand?

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Oh, I understand it perfectly. I also see you TRYING to justify it. It can't be justified. If you don't agree, we can just leave it at that. OK?

[GutshotApe]

Yeah, Keta is right. I don't want to see innocent people's rights trampled, either. Unfortunately, the 2,800 dead Americans on 9/11 are merely the first casualties if the terrorists get their way. They would like to add several zeros and next time kill 2,800,000 Americans. Or 28,000,000. And, if we let them, they're going to use our freedoms to do it.

I was an ACLU member :shocked: back before it was fashionable and there's probably a file on me in the FBI because of that youthful indiscretion . Don't tell me about constitutional rights. I'm well aware of them.

But, just as the rights of US citizens are curtailed when one joins the armed services because it is necessary, it may be necessary to abridge the rights of civilians in time of national emergency. Apparently it is going to take another 9/11 or worse for some people to understand we are facing a very serious threat to our survival. Forget about flying planes into buildings - start thinking about a smallpox epidemic, a sarin nerve gas attack, a nuclear bomb going off in Washington DC. From all accounts, these are more than just potential threats - its what the Islamo-terrorists are planning right now.

This ain't Kansas anymore, Toto. :depressed:

Ultralight,
I'm always right, sometimes far right and sometimes just a little right.
It's simple. Read the Constitution and Bill of Rights. They are in English and you don't need a lawyer to understand it.

[ultralight]

Keta,

You seem so wise and know everything

Where would I find a copy of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights? I really want to read them...you make them sound pretty important!

I can't believe they're doing this!
What they did to Japinese Americans during WWII was unconstitutional! Now this?

What next

[ 12-20-2002, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[fish assassin]

Ultralight:



-assAssin-

I wish that my title for this thread wasn't edited. The WWII concentration camps need to be called the most obnoxious name possible! My grandfather (Danish immigrant) sold food, clothing and other items to the prisoners at the Newel, CA. camp and he was always telling us about how bad the government was for doing this to citizens. I also have friends that were born in the camps whose families lost everything when they were arrested.
THIS SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN!

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/const/mdbquery.html

[ 12-20-2002, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[ultralight]

Keta,

I thought it was you who rephrased the title. Well, whoever did it, it was about time. Kudos to who changed/edited it.

Writing or saying offensive and making a qualifier is no excuse for making such an disparaging remark in the first place. It's akin to calling an African American a n****** then adding that you didn't mean anything negative by it. You could have simply said Japanese Internment Camp and saved any doubt.

That's what the camps were and I don't give a **** about any PC BS! I have several Japanese American friends and many Mexican friends and I don't pull any punches with them. In the past I've worked with and been friends of many black Americians (in southern Alabama and Alaska) and have had them call me a N****. All this PC cr** and catering to ethnic groups and "Affirmative Racism" is dividing our country.

One does have the right to dislike a person because of their race, BUT THEY CAN'T DISCRIMINATE against them.

[ultralight]

The term "***" is an offensive and insensitive, at the least, to Japanese and Japanese Americans, and it's not appropriate to shield yourself with P(i)C cover.

You comments reminded me of Seinfeld's episode where George trys everything to appear as if he's got black friends to convince a client. Hey, you don't have to convince me how many black friends you got. That's your business.

[lost_sailor]

"I feel that you can't trust any Muslim..."

well, that's the way prejudice feels. I'm sorry you feel that way. How do you feel about Buddhists? Hindus? Christians?

They don't preach that non believers are sub human and you can kill them or make them slaves.

[Kilgore]

Just where the hell in the universe are you getting your facts from?

Every religion has its own radical group, but we should not mistake them for the mainstream believers. I'm amazed (not really but it sounds more normal) how fear and ignorance often plays into demonizing people or groups we have very little understanding about.

Study Kilgore,
Look what is happening in the Sudan. It might not be all Muslim sects but there are clerics preaching hate. Look at what the Nation of Islam is preaching about Jewish people.

And if you read the first post here, I am against rounding up people because of their beliefs. I just don't trust them as a group. However my doctor is a Pakastani and my lawyer is an American Muslim.

[ 12-20-2002, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Kruechief]

If you are not a citizen of the US then you are NOT COVERED BY THE BILL OF RIGHTS! Do you think that if I were in some Middle Eastern country and I broke their law they would extend me the same rights as a citizen of the country? How about Mexico? Duh, when you cross the border, YOU LEAVE BEHIND YOUR BILL OF RIGHTS! UNTIL YOU BECOME A CITIZEN YOU ARE NOT COVERED BY THE US BILL OF RIGHTS!

If you are an alien and you have forfeited your bond, which about 75% do, then you are ILLEGAL!

My good friend’s dad has directed or been instrumental in immigration in Arizona, Chicago, New York and various other cities. So, much so that he can’t retire (he has tried numerous times). My friend’s mother works in the bond part of the system and is constantly frustrated that aliens post bonds and then simply do not show up when they are expected to. There are two types of bonds. A delivery bond is an appearance bond and is posted to insure that the alien will appear for all of his future immigration proceedings. A departure bond is posted to insure that the alien departs the United States within the time specified.

Get it!

PEOPLE WHO DO ILLEGAL THINGS SHOULD BE LOCKED UP (contrary to most bleeding hearts liberals' belief).

PS: AND LEARN ENGLISH IT”S THE NATIONAL LANGUAGE (at least until Hillary is elected president).

[ 12-20-2002, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: kruechief ]

These people were here legally and were easy targets because they came in to the INS office.
Illegal and terrorists won't just come in.

And show me where in the Bill of Rights it says that non citizens are not protected. If they are in our country leaglly they have rights.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Link to the Bill of Rights

[ 12-20-2002, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[SLEDDER]

I usually try to stay out of these type of arguments. I can't on this one. If they are here legally, fine nothing should happen to them. If they are here illegally, throw the book at them. That goes for all nationalities. Our borders are to open and it will, and has been costing us. The bleeding hearts among us will be the end of the U.S. as we know it.

[Kruechief]

Awhile back a large police department sent criminals who had warrents for arrest a note saying that they had won various prizes in a lottery and when they showed up to sign for the goods, BAM, 3 hots and a cot!

Lo

Kruechief,
The key word is CRIMINALS.

[Kruechief]

Keta,

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

From your article,

Hundreds of Iranian and other Middle East citizens were in southern California jails on Wednesday after coming forward to comply with a new rule to register with immigration authorities only to wind up handcuffed and behind bars.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Not once does it say that they were not held on legitimate charges, such as not answering to INS for bond violation.

Trust me this is California the armpit of oozing bleeding hearts, if these people were not guilty of something they wouldn't be held. Most likely, it involves money or the government wouldn't be so involved

[ 12-20-2002, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: kruechief ]

They were arested by the feds.

If they can do this to Iranians they can do it to gun owners. Especially in the New Peoples Republic of California.

[STGRule]

They don't preach that non believers are sub human and you can kill them or make them slaves.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Rant # 1: How about good Christian white supremacists? Don't they believe that also?
Rant #2. The Pastor at my church (the same pastor that married us 30 years ago) was interred as a very small child. He and his family must have been one bad threat. Imagine how a small child could have taken down the country! Everything they owned was stolen from them. When they were "released" they had none of their family treasures, no money; the property they owned was gone, their businesses gone. And this was done to people who had committed no crime at all. These people were Americans, some born in this country, bona fide Americans.
Rant #3. I am constantly amazed at how people in this country feel that dead, non-military people is okay when it happens in another country, but becomes bigger than life if it happens here. We are ALL human beings and if that thought has ever crept into your mind, you are bigoted and less a human yourself. Every taking of innocent life is tragic, no matter where it happens. It should be punished no matter what government is responsible, even ours.

STG,
#1 Yes they do and they're wrong too
#2 Sad chapter in our nations history
#3 I wish that only the targets got wacked :depressed:

I don't trust Baptists or Hindus either :grin:
When your religion teaches that you can sin all week and then get forgiveness on Sunday something is wrong. And look what the Hindus did to the Muslims in India.

[Kruechief]

"Religion is the opium of the masses."

Karl Marx

"The coziness between church and state is good for the state and bad for the church."

G. K. Chesterton

[ 12-20-2002, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: kruechief ]

Sometimes more like meth :depressed:

KETA

[ 12-20-2002, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[GutshotApe]

STG -

Rant 1: In Islam, part of the core belief is that infidels are subhumans who may be killed or enslaved. In other religions, that is not the case except perhaps for small, radical fringe elements. Orthodox priests, preachers, rabbis, ministers, etc. don't espouse killing non-belivers.

Rant 2: Japanese-American internment was wrong. Many US citizens were moved to camps, lost time & property, etc. Although the govt. paid compensation it was probably too little and decades too late. However, it is simplistic to condemn our parents and grandparents as hopeless racists because of the Japanese internment. It was a different world in 1942, less sophisticated and less diverse population, no TV, no Internet, no transport network, etc. Japan, a 99% racially pure country, had just attacked Pearl Harbor killing 2,200 Americans. In 1942 Japanese troops seized two Alaskan islands, Japanese submarines were sinking ships up and down the US west coast, subs shelled the Oregon (Ft.Stevens) and California coasts and Japanese aircraft made incendiary bombing raids on the so. Oregon coast. Invasion wasn't some far fetched fantasy - it was a real possiblilty and military planners feared sabotage, espionage, collaboration, etc. The solution, internment based on race, was inherently wrong - but seems more understandable and forgiveable if one tries to imagine the situation that the US faced 60 years ago. And, the US people weren't asked what they thought - internment was approved by F.D.Roosevelt, a Democrat.

Rant 3: Collateral damage in wartime - the killing of innocent civilians - should be minimized & avoided. But the safety and security of OUR people - both soldiers and civilians - comes first. :smile:

GSA,
FDR was a closet socialist!

[ultralight]

STGRule,

I'm completely with you on your last post. I could not have said it better or more passionately. My faith in humanity has been bumped up a several notch, especially in this part of the country. All three points hit the mark square on -- bulls eye. This world would be a better place with more compassionate human beings like you.

Keta,

Although you often make off the wall comments, I give you a lot of credit for having the guts to admit wrong and being engaging. I respect people who debate ideas and issues, and is willing to listen to differing opinions in good faith. BTW, if it's not too much of an imposition, why are you getting a CAT Scan?

[thankful]

Having a good day Keta?

[STGRule]

Rant #1. Atrocities have been committed by religions for as long as there has been religions. No one of them has a much worse record than another.
Rant #2. While it may have been a more naïve time, the people were not stupid. I grew up hearing my grandparents and parents and friends of my parents decry the internment of Japanese Americans. These people lived here and my Grandfather, Father, Uncles and their friends fought in wars. I never heard an adult say anything good about it.
Rant #3. This is where we truly depart in thinking. I don’t accept “Collateral Damage”. That is an excuse of old men who sit behind desks with flags and send others to fight for them. If talking about humans as “things” makes you feel better, so be it. It doesn’t cut it with me. I don’t think American lives are any more special than non-Americans are. And if we all thought this way, the old men behind their desks would have to fight amongst themselves or come up with a different plan. Yes, I am fully aware that isn’t an achievable reality. I also can just say no to old men behind desks that can’t think past their fists or egos.
There are lots of reasons that Americans are hated around the world, some of them are right on the money. Those are the things we need to change. America has been around a piddly couple hundred years. My cousin has a house (just a plain old house) in France that is most of twice as old as this country. That is what I think about. When we've been around as long as that house, we can start to think of ourselves as successful. :smile:

thankful,
No

Ultralight,
I think my cancer is back. I go in Tuesday for tests.

As for being "Off the Wall" That's the way I feel. I'll tell you if I disagree with you. You can tell me I have my head up my a**. That's the American way :smile:

The FDR statement has to do with the way eastern Europe was given to the communists after WWII. Truman was involved too.

[ 12-20-2002, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[STGRule]

Oh Keta, I hope your wrong. I'm praying really hard. [img]graemlins/hearton.gif[/img]

Thank you.

[thankful]

When people are desperate and fearful they tend to do stupid things and to innocent people. It is not to late for all races in this great nation to bond together as Americans first to protect what our forefathers had fought and died for. If we fight among ourselves, we will loose the shield of greatness and power to fend off those who will do anything to take our freedom away.......

The Right to disagree is in the Bill of Rights.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

[ 12-20-2002, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

I have no black friends now. Not many in KF. One family about 1 mile down the road. Many Mexicians, some good some bad. One of my best friend in Ketchikan was born in a concentration camp in Idaho (I think that was where it was) and he didn't mind calling them "*** Camps".

[Miss B Haven]

Keta - Bud! I gotta agree with the edit. It wasn't a good thing to put in a title to a post. You can make your point without it.
PS - GO FISHING, RELAX (shovel some snow?)! Solve the worlds ill's tomorrow, they'll still be there and you'll be in better shape to handle them! :smile:

[1pump]

There are lots of reasons that Americans are hated around the world, some of them are right on the money. Those are the things we need to change. America has been around a piddly couple hundred years. My cousin has a house (just a plain old house) in France that is most of twice as old as this country. That is what I think about. When we've been around as long as that house, we can start to think of ourselves as successful.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">We're hated in some places because we're arrogant. In others because we're infidels and we don't believe Muhammad is the true Prophet. Some people hate us because their government tells them they should. But let's face it. For the last 50 years we've dominated this planet. And we only represent about 5% of the world's population. Throw in some huge foreign policy blunders and our current role as the world's bully (oops, I mean police) and you've got a recipe for resentment. Yes, we need to change some things but the rest of the world needs to change as well. We're the Great Satan because we let women work, drive cars, talk to men they're not married to, and we don't execute adulterers and blasphemers. We're also evil capitalists because we believe in a free-market economy.
Sure, we're a young country. But nobody, I mean nobody, has accomplished more in 200 years, or in 50 years, than the U.S. Before WWII, we were a backwater. A bit player on the world stage. There was a huge isolationist movement in this country that wanted no part of a "European" war. But on Dec 7, 1941 it all got dumped in our lap. And by Aug 1945 all there was left was the Soviets, the UK, and the US. We didn't want it, but we got it. And we're still paying for it.
A piddly 200 years? Look at all the other countries that have been around for 2000 years. What have they accomplished? Some of them are still killing each other over interpretations of the Koran or the length of their beards.
We've made BIG mistakes, and the shameful internment of Japanese-Americans is only one on a long list. And we'll make more. But the biggest mistake of all is not learning from them.

Keta, hang in there. We're all with ya!

[ 12-21-2002, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: 1pump ]

Miss B,
I don't feel good and I'm grumpy. I have to go in for a CAT scan on Tuesday :depressed: What a Christmas present.

[Miss B Haven]

Ya - bummer! :depressed: Hope everything turns out well! :smile: Gimme an email when you get home next week if you feel up to it. We'll be thinking of ya! :smile:

1pump,
When the world believes that "We Are Created Equal" things will be much better. :smile:

[ultralight]

Keta,

I'm sorry to hear that, but I hope you're wrong, too. Stay strong! I hope to hear a good news after the test, so please let us know!

:smile:

[Eric W.]

Legal immigrants?
OR
Illegal Immigrants?

That is the question?

Illegal = jail
Legal = freedom

simple math

[Kruechief]

1pump,

[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

krue

[J.Slay]

Good debates.

I am sick of people crying about how the US protects its citizens. If you want to live here deal with it. Many of the 9/11 Islamic detainees were found to have multiple names/IDs and were not paying taxes. A check of PDX personnel found many illegal aliens. I, for one, am glad to have less free-loaders taking my tax dollars. Detain me anytime. I feel living in America is worth having to prove my innocence, and if I feel otherwise I am free to move.

[Thumper]

So what is wrong with racial profiling when only one "race" commits the crime?

I had to laugh the other day as the airport security folks selected a little 5-year old blond girl to undergo "additional security screening", including removal and wanding of her little black patent leather shoes. All while several middle-eastern twenty-something males walked on by.

Profiling is just common sense.