Taxation without representation.

[speyfly]

All I know is that here in Oregon, our state leaders, democrat or republican has not fulfilled their agreement with taxpaying Oregonians. Providing an education for our young, (look where PERS has gotten us) police, fire and the entire infrastructure. They way over spent during the good times and now are begging for more. Did they think that it would last forever?

I’m not giving them any more money to support their habit. I say no to more taxes. What say you!

[ 12-16-2002, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

I don't curently pay any income tax and am on "the welfare plantation" but we are already over taxed.

[Trick]

I'm with ya on this one. When are they going to get the hint that a sales tax will never pass unless they do a complete overhaul on the current tax structure.

This state needs some fiscal responsibility. If the state were a corporation they would have gone out of business a long time ago!

[TheRogue]

For some STRANGE reason, I watched a show on the local access channel last night. It was the esteemed Senator Gary George(my local senator) talking about taxes. He had lists of all the ideas that had come through his commitee for new tax revenue. There were lots of them, definitely. He harped and harped on state budget growth, and how if we just return to 99-01 budget levels, we should survive with no tax increases.

He had tons of numbers, and I'm sure none of them were false. However, NOWHERE in his hour-long presentation, did he offer up where the cuts in the state budget were going to take place. NOWHERE did he talk about how we would keep something near the current service levels, on a budget that will be hard-hit by the PERS fiasco.

To me, this is just as stupid as the ultra-liberal Dems who just want to raise taxes to completely fill the void. It's just sticking his head in the sand, and ignoring the problem.

I would like to see us return to the beginning. Start from 0, identify absolute state priorities, beginning with education, then transportation, then the environment, then public safety. Everything else after that will follow.

It is also time to lay it all on the line with PERS. I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to lay any blame on public employees.....it wasn't their fault the legislature was cheap way back when, and came up with the system. It also wasn't their fault the PERS board did what they did. However, they do need to be part of the solution, and concessions will have to be made.

My .02

TR

[Joe Schwab]

Maybe public employess would be willing to make concessions if they saw the Teamsters or the Longshoremen making concessions.
Just a thought?

[TheRogue]

Good point, Hook.

Of course, the companies they work for can just raise the prices of their stuff to account for the needed revenue. Not an option for the state as we're guaranteed to destroy any tax increase.

TR

[Straydog]

I agree with TR and Capt. Hook.

To just say they spend foolishly and "no more money" is not going to solve our problems.

Is there waste in Gov.? Absolutely, just as there is in the private sector.

Does that mean we don't need more money from cuts as well as revenue increases? Absolutely not!

I am on our school Site Council as well as our district Budget Committee. I have been activly involved in our schools for more years than I care to remember. (Three step kids and now one of my own spread over some 17 years)

I was there when we cut transportation. I was there when many sports become non funded club sports. I was there when we closed two elementary schools. I was there when we cut administrators. I am now there helping to figure out how to cut 10 days out of the school year with the least amount of pain. I will likely be helpig figure out how to eliminate 27 MORE teachers from our district in the upcoming months.

The average person is not involved deeply enough to really know what is going on in our schools (not to mention the myriad of other state departments) to really understand the ramifications of what is really happening yet find it very easy and comfortable to sit back, cross their arms and simply say NO.

If everyone that chooses to take that route would volunteer thier time to get invovled with these organizations and really learn how they operate, what they provide and how they provide it, they would have a much different and more realistic outlook on the issue.

By the way, Speyfly, I also agree that our elected officials, all of em, have let us down tremendously and I have listened to my local elected officials spew their politics much like what TR heard. However, it makes no sense to me to take it out on our teachers, police officers, kids, parents and everyone else that will be negatively affected if we hold our position on trying to fix this by simply cutting programs.

Way too much that is provided for us with tax dollars are simply taken for granted.

[ 12-17-2002, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[The Fishing Geek]

Damnit, Straydog. We don't need insightful answers based on personal experience. We need kneejerk responses that were fed to us by party lines and grand plans that have no chance of success!

How can we have grunt, snort, and chest-thumping sessions when the voice of insight keeps piping up?

[TheRogue]

Damnit, Straydog. We don't need insightful answers based on personal experience. We need kneejerk responses that were fed to us by party lines and grand plans that have no chance of success!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">

[speyfly]

Come on straydog. Your blowing smoke up our skirts. If you involved with education maybe you can tell me why it cost $1000 more per student (Oregon) than Washington state to educate them.

Like any other business, if you mismanage funds, you should go out of business. No way will I support any tax increases untill I see the cuts that are needed at the state level.

Sports...... If parents want them then let the parents pay for them. It's time to cut the PORK in government. We need to get back to what school is for and cut the crap.

[ 12-17-2002, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

[Straydog]

Geek and TR.....
Bear with me, I lost my head once again. :blush:
Picked a poor day to quit doing shots for breakfast!! :grin:

Speyfly,
I am nowthinking (hoping) it is you that is blowing the smoke

For a 'Speyfly' fisherman you present a pretty good bait! :grin:

I admit to being a 'biter'........ :blush:

If you are indeed serious, which I don't belive you are, yes, let's just stop providing all government services..... chaos and anarchy can be kind of fun. [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

[ 12-17-2002, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[speyfly]

Yup, sounds good to me staydog. But you see, I am serious. Go ahead and cut the services. Then and only then will our decission makers see the big picture. The gravey train must stop.

When I see Bio's that move from the private sector to a government job because of the pay benifits that government offers it tell me that there is fat to be cut. When I see government employees taking wage and benifits cuts then you might get me back into the game.

[ 12-17-2002, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

[The Fishing Geek]

Just curious speyfly, where do you get your figures? I'd like to see those.

[Straydog]

Our teachers are about to take a 5% hit in pay.

My brother just got promoted to head of our Co. Parks but at a substanially lower salary than the person that is retiring although he has an equal number of years on the job.

Our School superintendant has voluntarily taken on two jobs for the pay of one.

I guess I can now consider you on board, huh?

The good news is that the good people of Oregon will not let us go down the tubes as your way of thinking would take us.

Now go back to the Lars Larson show where no one has the chance to argue your stance with facts.

[ 12-17-2002, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[speyfly]

Straydog, you make my point. Sorry to hear that you brother won't be making as much as the former employee but maybe, just maybe he was being over paid in the first place.

About teacher, police, fire fighters and the like. It is a old ploy that the first ones threatened with pay cuts are the essential services. That way the taxpayers have to roll over because taxpayers want these services. Now about school administrators doing more work. I think that is good. Maybe they should have been doing more in the first place.

Many businesses are doing the same thing. Why should government be any different?

More taxes are not the answer. We have to get government spending back in line.

BTW, I hate Lars. His whole schtick is to stir the pot. Hes an idiot.

Geek, what stats are you talking about?

[ 12-17-2002, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

[Straydog]

Spey,

I have pointed out specific examples of public servants taking cuts and only scratched the surface. At the same time I gave specific proof that I am not blowing smoke up anyone's skirt.

It is now your turn to stand by your word and help us find the needed revenue to offer the services that you and rest of Oregonians demand and deserve. It is also time to give specific examples of the cuts you would have us take to give us the dollars we need for essential services. 'Specific' is a key word here but factual would be helpful as well.

I am glad you don't like Lars but you sure sound like him and his minions. Would seem to me you would have more enlightened and informed views if you were indeed opposed to his show. (I include 'informed' only because you have offered no examples of the wanton waste you seem to feel we are subject to.)

BTW, who paid for your schooling? Also, do you have any idea how many kids complete highschool primarily because of athletics and go on to be productive, tax paying citizens? To me, a fiscal conservative, it makes a whole lot more sense to educate them and make them productive citizens than to open the door for them to drop out and then support them in jail for 10 to 50 years or have them be un or under employed and have them on assistance for life.

[ 12-17-2002, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[speyfly]

Straydog, Like any other business, we do what we can with the dollars that are available. The system is broken. When a government department has a budget and funding is available for that department they have to spend all of the money or they will have less in the next round of funding. There are no rewards for conserving thus saving the taxpayers money. If they don’t spend it they will loose it. What kind of crap is that?

[ 12-17-2002, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by speyfly:
Come on straydog. Your blowing smoke up our skirts. If you involved with education maybe you can tell me why it cost $1000 more per student (Oregon) than Washington state to educate them.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Those figures. I'd like to see those, if you have them.

[Straydog]

Specifics Spey, I am asking for specifics.

Come on, just put the money where your mouth is, where is it going to come from?
What are you going to cut? Who's ox shall we gore? In order to do with what we got, something has to give.

I gave you my specifics, please share yours.

BTW, I agree we need to change the budgeting process and build in initiative to spend wisely but I still want to know the specific cuts we can make to get by with the current funding available.

Also, if you are going to quote money spent in other states on Education, please be sure you are also comparing services provided and are informed enough about the budget makeup to make comparisons of like items. I have no idea what they spend in Washington and frankly am not concerned about what they spend on Washington. There are lot's of reasons I prefer to be in Oregon.

[ 12-17-2002, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[DanS]

Like any other business, we do what we can with the dollars that are available

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">ANY other business? You mean like Enron, WorldCom, and Tyco/ADT?? Ha ha. Yeah, let's run government like a business. Then the Governor and Senators can keep ALL the money themselves, and then declare the state bankrupt.

Great idea.

[speyfly]

Geek, here is some info but there is so much out there. If you don't know how to get the info for yourself so you can be up to speed on the issues, let me know and I won't help you.
Click Here

Straydog, at this point I think that it all should be gutted. Make our administrators be responsible for what they do and how they spend MY money rather than having 10 year and cannot be fired without a n act of congress. I don't like working for the STATE anymore. The State used to work for me.

[speyfly]

DanS. It's funny that you mention Enron. Our government is much like the Enrons of the world.

[Straydog]

Spey,

Ok, please explain what you mean by "all should be gutted."

Should we have a revolution and storm the capital and put them all on the streets? What then, rebuild with 'smarter' people such as yourself who seem to have all the answers but refuse to share them?

Should we ask Bush to declare marshall law and put the state under Federal jurisdiction?

You allow the meat of the debate to slip away better than a tefloned fry pan.

I am disappointed but certainly not suprised.

Disappointed because I thought for just once (I am naive, I know) someone might back their 'cut to save' rhetoric with specific facts.
No one has had the guts to date to that. I don't why I though you might be different.


Not suprised because there are so many clueless wonders such as yourself with the same misguided, uninformed, masses pleasing rhetoric that add nothing to finding solutions and only keeps the divisivness in place and the obstructions working.

Your attitude and uninformed logic (?) are a big part of the problem. :depressed:

PS. I am trying not to get too personal but you really, really show your true colors and lack of fundamental understanding when you mention "10 year" in same post that you challenge TFG to "get up to speed on the issues......"

[ 12-17-2002, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[speyfly]

I too am disappointed in you Straydog. You would have the status quo rather than looking at the problem and correcting it. Yes it is a complex problem that we face but I don't think that throwing more money at it would solve anything. It has been proven time and time again that more money IS NOT the answer. Fiscal responsibility is the answer.

You are like so many in our government, trying to scare the general public to get more money. I wish you would share with us what your ideas are rather than just spouting your rhetoric.

[Straydog]

Holy Cow Spefly!!!

Did you even read the article you posted on Education???

It very clearly spells out why we spend more (depending on whose numbers we use) than Washington as well as the fact that when you look at student achievement spending more is giving us good return on our investment.

It is with great difficulty that one remains civil in conversations such as these.

Unbelievable, simply unbelievable........ :depressed:

[Straydog]

Yo, Spey,

I gave you very specific examples of things that have and are being done.

It is you that refuse to share anything beyond rhetoric.

Further, I think we need to greatly reduce or even eliminate income tax and put a sales tax in place with a specific amount of said sales tax earmarked for education and nothing more.

Have you ever stopped to consider that all of those public employees you want to gut pay into our limited tax base through income tax and if you put them out of work you will lesson the pool of money generated? Have you also stopped to consider that those people are going to have eat, have housing, food and clothing even if we put them out of work?

Let 's see, gut the public servants, reduce the revenue flows through income tax and increase spending to feed and house them through subsidies...... sounds like a sure formula for success to me!!

I think we also need to write in a cap on the sales tax that will not be exceeded with out a vote of the people.

I then think we need to change the budgeting process (I know I am being repetitious here but the first time it must have gone over your head) so that departments are rewarded for not spending all of their budgeted monies. Those tenured (look it up) employees you so badly want to eliminate may be very helpful in finding ways to do reduce spending if they were not punished in the budget for doing so.

And once again, I would sure like a hint of specifics from you..... gutting the whole state government just dosen't cut it in the real world.

[ 12-17-2002, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[speyfly]

You amaze me straydog. I posted that link to show the good that Oregon schools do. DUH! The link was to give geek some info to get started on getting the facts. Now, you did not answer my last question. Is your paycheck or retirement tied taxation? Sounds like it is. You are the one that has your panties in a not thrown slams at anyone that disagrees with you.

[speyfly]

A sales tax would be OK if they totally elliminated property taxes but I will not support a sales tax and property taxes too.

If our leaders we serious about cutting spending by cutting the fat, I would support that but it has NEVER happened. They just keep coming back to the taxpayers like a theif in the night, holding our essential services hostage. Give me a break. What in the hell do we elect and pay these people to do? Just keep spending money without being responsible for what they do?

[ 12-17-2002, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

[Straydog]

Spey,

I am a commissioned salesman. I get paid for what I produce in sales. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think you are blowing smoke up your skirt when you say you posted the article for the reason you just gave.

I only make slams at people that start conversations as important as this one with no facts and no or very little knowledge of what they speak. Arguing with no specifics and only outdated generalities does indeed get to me and I commend you on a job well done.

[Straydog]

We elect them to represent us and without specific wishes, only sitting back and saying "cut the fat", we are not giving them the tools to do thier jobs.

Given you refuse to share with me the fat to be cut, I feel comfortable in assuming you have not spent much time informing your elected officials of what you would like to see either.......

Again, much more a part of the problem than a part of the solution.

[The Fishing Geek]

The smaller school districts definitely raise the overall cost per student amount. The figure sited in the article was $7,357. After doing so research on the Portland Public School district and North Clackamas School district I found that they spend $6643 and $6232 per student, respectively. Is that too much? Is that too little? I won't speak on the district level, as I have no experience there. What I can say about my son's school is that I don't believe that they have more than 3 people working in the office as support to the teachers, so the money can't be going there.

From what I'm reading on my wanderings I'm finding that cost per student numbers are almost like apples to oranges in comparison. The number of kids in the district makes that number change dramatically, as obviously you get to spread out costs over multiple kids.

Regardless, stating that the schools need to experience cost-cutting is a dangerous slope that we are already slipping down. Schools should be the MOST funded of our social programs, as they are our future. And as it stands right now, our future is looking pretty bleak.

[speyfly]

Straydog, You gave a couple of examples (5% decrease in teachers wages and a story about your brother). The problem is much bigger than what you gave as your solution to an over burdened tax system.

Now you attack me on why I gave a link that was not bias. WOW! I could find many links that would be bias but that does no service to anyone. Tis Tis straydog. Your way out of line on that one.

BTW, miss direction and bias reporting is a ploy that Lars uses but I won't.

[ 12-17-2002, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

[speyfly]

OK straydog, how about rock music appreciation classes funded by Oregon Lotto money. Is that fat enough for you. I guess our leaders need to be taken by the hand and shown what is excessive spending. If we need to point out to them what is good for Oregon and what is bad for Oregon, why would we need them in the first place.

I would agree that schools are at the top of the heap for funding but there is so much wasteful spending yet our governing body does not take a stand in fear of ******* off their constituency.

I love a good debate and this is where it all starts.

[Straydog]

Yahoo! We found some agreement..... cut the rock music classes at once!!

But, as you said to me, we gotta do a lot more than that.

Our government leaders can only be afraid of ticking off the constituents if they don't know what the constiuents want or if the constituents have unrealistic expectaions due to ignorance.

If they are afraid of making cuts because of alienating constuents, it can only stand to reason that they feel the constituents want the services they are getting.

Again, saying 'cut the fat' is fine but you gotta tell them what fat you want cut so they won't be afraid of ticking you off! Kind of a vicious circle but just as real.

As you might guess, my elected officials hear from me on a regular basis.

I say let's cut the number of vehicles in the fleets. I say let's cut the expense of travel with more limitations on related spending. I say let's drive the fleet cars longer if it isn't more expensive to repair rather than replace. I say let's do away with OLCC. I say let's legalize pot and save the enforcement money to find, prosecute and put away the meth and other hard drug users and sellers. I say let's not move a department from Portland to Salem because they did bad in the past.

I also say doing all of those things and more will not be enough for us to make do with the monies we have......

[speyfly]

Straydog, you forgot to mention using fleet cars as personal vehicals, cutting first class air fares for government employees, yada, yada, yada... COMMON SENSE!!!! Is that so hard for our elected officals to understand? It seems so. How about cutting all the perks that strain our states budget!

Straydog, I think that we have more in common than you might think.

[ 12-17-2002, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: speyfly ]

[Dancin' Bear]

Wow. That was a great debate by Straydog and Speyfly. I really enjoyed reading it. It opened my eyes to a few issues brought forward by Straydog, but I do have to say that I agree mostly with Speyfly. In just my short voting life (36 years old) I have seen so many bonds and measures to raise money for education that have made me pay higher taxes. BUT, the situation just seems to be getting worse and worse. From just a common sense look at it, it seems like throwing more money at a broken system is not going to do any good. In 3 years or 2 years or probably next year we will just have to open our pockets again. I am sick of it just like Speyfly. I don't have any specific answers, but from someone who has seen this problem getting worse and my (and your) taxes getting bigger, something other than more money must be done.
Straydog - can you give me a few paragraphs of why you think that with all of the money that has been given to education, then why does the problem seem to be getting worse? And then why would more money be any type of solution.
Thanks!

[lost_sailor]

Remember that your "representation" is who proposed the income tax increase.

I don't know. I'd like to see some agencies shut down before I pay more $$$$$. But then - what would those be? Children's Services, Senior Services, Employment. Cutting agency budgets will just make them less effective. Entire programs need to be eliminated. We could save a certain amount on law enforcement by ending the prohibition of certain plant products ... [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

If we're going to continue public education (and we should - it is one appropriate task for a government) we need to support it at a much higher level. The failure of the education system will just compound our other social problems - drugs, crime, unemployment.

Can anyone explain Oregon's aversion to sales taxes? Or ... self-service gasoline? I was born here, and I don't get it. Of course if there was a sales tax, I would want income and/or property taxes to go down (or away) - - but at least we could suck money out of the tourists !!!

[ 12-17-2002, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: lost_sailor ]

[GutshotApe]

Dancin'Bear - Most state education funding goes for teacher's and administrator's salaries and PERS retirements. Oregon teachers & school administrators are, IMHO, overpaid considering that school is in session for less than 180 days - all summer off, etc. And, how hard can it be? Many teachers just use canned lesson plans from the year before. They get every holiday known to mankind off with pay, are paid well and get a great benefits package.

The state agencies I'm aware of do not have a lot of abuses i.e. state cars used as personal vehicles, etc., but as with education, in most there is a high percentage of funding for salaries and PERS retirement. Many state employees will claim they're underpaid but compared to the private sector, most are doing pretty well. Some do very well. Many will tell you they could be making more in pvt. sector but I don't see very many making the leap.

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by GutshotApe:
Dancin'Bear - Most state education funding goes for teacher's and administrator's salaries and PERS retirements. Oregon teachers & school administrators are, IMHO, overpaid considering that school is in session for less than 180 days - all summer off, etc. And, how hard can it be? Many teachers just use canned lesson plans from the year before. They get every holiday known to mankind off with pay, are paid well and get a great benefits package.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">This is the widely spread misinformation that hurts the profession as a whole. It is a fact that many instructors use summers to get additional training, to put together new and updated lesson plans, and even work with summer school students to help them get ready for the next year. Yes, they do take vacation time with their family but that is one of the perks of the job.

On the flip side of things, it is common practice for the teachers to buy classroom supplies out of their own pockets when the schools cannot provide what they need. They will also buy the basic equipment for some of the lowest income kids whose families cannot afford it. They get in before the kids do and stay well after to grade papers and other assignments. They more and more have to pick up the slack where parents leave off because they're too preoccupied with their own lives to care that their child is an emotional wreck. They have to worry about weapons in schools, whether Johnny is on drugs or whether Susie might be looking suicidal.

By in large these people introduce kids to their first books in kindergarten, and are the ONLY education that they will get. Teachers are expected to get our children ready for college, or at least ready to live in the real world without being eaten alive.

For all that they start out in Oregon at about $28,000 a year, and average just under $40,000. In my mind there are few professions that carry a greater burdon, or affect our society more, than teachers, and because of this they should be one of the HIGHEST paid professions out there. Looking around iFish specifically, and the Internet as a whole, tells me that we needed better teachers than we have. And how do we get the best and brightest of students to be teachers when we are paying them less than an assistant manager would make at a clothing store?

Please, before you become critical of teacher, go volunteer in your local scool. My son is in kindergarten, and his teacher does an amazing job for how little she makes. Sure, there are bad apples in the teaching profession. Every profession has them, and the lower pay will assure that you get more of them. However, painting the whole teaching profession with the broad stroke of "they're overpaid and underworked" is both horribly inaccurate and disrespectful towards the folks who do amazing work with difficult students under unimaginable conditions.

[Kruechief]

Right now our illustrious leader, Governor Kitzhaber is doing what he has done for 2 terms, threatening the citizens if we don't cough up the money to support his fat-bellied bureaucrats. Currently, he is coercing us by telling us how he will allow cuts to services that provide safety, education and now...the last straw in my book, to the ODFW fish hatcheries. All we have asked as citizens is for agencies to respect us and use our monies wisely. Did you know that the Oregon Youth Authority has 1 manager to 5 employees? The closest other ratio is department of Corrections with 10 staff to every 1 manager. Talk about micro-managed. They also have 5 Area Coordinators who between them cost us $750,000.00 a year. The sad part is that these positions are not needed and are simple duplications of other positions. One of the coordinators in Central Oregon even has an "Assistant Coordinator" who even does less!
Please take the time as my friend, family member, or fellow Oregonian to call this number 503.378.3111 and let the Governor know that we want safe communities, educated children, AND OUR FISH HATCHERIES LEFT OPEN!!!

Thank you,

Loren F. Kruesi

PS: PERS tier 1 is guaranteed 9%...WOW!

I am tier 2 and it was started at the end of 1995, I missed tier 1 by a few months :depressed: or i would be a happy man. Tier 2 does not get a guaranteed %.

Cut the waste! Vote no, even though it may mean my job!

[The Fishing Geek]

Here we go again...

The Governor for the State of Oregon CANNOT elect to cut from specific programs. All he is allowed to do BY LAW is make equal cuts across the board. He (or she) can only figure out how much the budget is short, do some quick math to find out what percentage that is of the total budget, and then cut that percentage from all budgets equally. Education, public safety, ODFW...all of them. Equally. Last year Kitzhaber made the mistake of suggesting a budget cut to a spacific part of the budget, and the legislature took him to court over it.

Remember all that baloney last fall about the Governor wanting to cut hatcheries? It was just that. Baloney. Malarkey. The percentage of cut that would have had to have been made at the time came out to $850,000, and the ODFW management chose their favorire poster child (the general fund hatcheries) as their scare stick. In reality they can make budget cuts in administration throughout the state and probably have to cancel some worthwhile programs, but they would NOT cut those hatcheries. They're just too valuable to the State overall. That, however, doesn't mean that they won't trot them out whenever they want to scare the anglers.

So please. Next time someone (usually on the opposite side of the political fence from the Governor) says that the Governor is against hatcheries (or whatever program), remember this truth: while the Governor may or may not be in favor of cuts, they cannot make that cut. (S)He only tells the departments what their equal share of the cut is.

Okay, that's your government lesson for today. Share it with whomever.

[TheRogue]

GSA.....99% of the time, I agree with what you say. I believe you are one of the smartest and most informed people on this board. However, your statements about overpaid teachers and how easy it must be to do just threw me for a double loop. You were just making those statements for shock value, right??

I have one child in school, and work closely with two people who have teachers as spouses. I don't know of ANY teacher (or administrator, for that matter), that doesn't spend a ton of their own time in educating the kids. More and more time is spent preparing for these ridiculous standardized tests that are shoved down their throats, while still attempting to teach the same curriculum, as mandated by the state. With the budget cuts, many teachers who also are sports coaches will likely be volunteering their time, since many coaches salaries will disappear.

They also spend a significant amount of their own money as well. One of these teachers that I know recently spent around $100 of her own money on colored paper, because the school district couldn't afford it. Others regularly spend their own money on supplies for less-fortunate students, as well as fun, non-mandated activities.

Teachers who don't genuinely enjoy what they're doing, and put in all that extra time, normally find a much easier career to jump to.

Perhaps you don't personally know anyone in the education system?? It's a VERY eye-opening experience.

TR

PS....Anyone who advocates just dumping the next few year's worth of kid's education on the road because of lack of funding is, in my book, out of touch with reality. Come up with some plans for what to cut, and where to cut, or cut the crap.

[GutshotApe]

Geek - As in many other fields, the entry level teachers do valuable work but are paid the least. But if they hang in and get their 5th yr masters, if they're tempermentally suited to teach, after a few years their average salary is not too shabby for someone who works less than 180 days/yr. Most private sector jobs require 225 or more days/yr. And few asst. clothing store mgrs. make $40,000 - and they work a full year. And then there's the benefit and retirement package teachers get. Nothing like it in the private sector.

I'd feel better if I thought the schools were actually teaching, i.e. the 3 Rs. I've looked at a lot of job applications and many, many high school grads cannot spell their way out of a wet paper bag! Quite a few people who post here on Ifish also are spelling challenged, presumably they're also products of the public schools that are doing such a fine, professional job.

My fishing & hunting pal's brother recently retired from 4J school dist. in Eugene at age 53 after 30 years of teaching English. He made close to $60,000/year, guided in Montana in summers, fished all over during breaks, inservice days, has big house with 2 Volvos in the garage, etc. His wife works for the city of Eugene and will be retiring very soon too. His retirement (includes full medical) pay runs about 90% of his former salary. His 30 years so burned him out that he is now working part-time as a private college teacher.

What a deal. :tongue:

[Straydog]

GSA,

You are simply blind to the realities of the vast majority of todays teachers. When was the last time you spent any time in a school? When did your kids, presuming you have any, attend public schools and how involved were you?

There are lots of people in any profession that learn to work the system and get the most for the least effort. Your one example says more about those you associate with than it does about the public education system. You are continually reminding us that the timber industry can not be judged bad a few bad apples. I would ask that you extend the same consideration to educators.

The vast majority of teachers work a whole heck of a lot more than 180 days a year. Please stop posting blatantly false statements.

Dancin' Bear,

I can only speak for our district as I am not knowledgable about others. I will respond from that perspective.

We have not been succesful in our district in gettin bonds passed so we have not had continually rising costs at ground level. We did finally pass a capital construction bond two hears ago. It was the first bond to be passed in our district in some 25 years and I am very proud to have been a part of effort to get it passed.

I think the reasons for growing expenses in our district are several.

PERs and the cost of general insurance are two major ones today. Insurance rates have sky rocketed. PERS was a sweet deal that was passed when people were blinded by the good times or someone had very incriminating photos of someone else, not sure just which! :whazzup:

Transportation costs in our district are huge, some of the biggest in the state due to our rural, spread out nature. As we all know, fuel costs have risen considerably over the years. Since we are so rural, we often times have buses going 30 or more miles with only a handful, at best, of students. In the case of Special Ed., we sometimes must bus single students over 30 miles to get them to the service centers they are required.

The cost of educating kids rises as family responsiblities seem to decrease. We are servicing many, many more kids from broken homes, substance abuse homes, poverty stricken homes, physical abuse homes and any combination of the above. This all takes more aides, teachers time and ultimately, money.

My wife volunteers as a SMART parent. The little gal she read to last year came from a home where the parents spoke no english and they had not one book in their home. You don't think it costs more to educate that child?

The principal at the highschool my oldest daughter graduated from two years ago told me he has to bring in extra councilers from around the district just before the holidays to try to help the kids that don't want a Christmas Vacation because school is the only stability they have and their life goes to hell in a hand basket at vacation time..... those kids cost more to deal with and educate.

I could go on with other examples but I am trying to keep this to a few paragraphs as requested... :smile:

I am also pooped!

[ 12-18-2002, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Straydog]

Perhaps you're right Speyfly and that is a good thing! :smile:

I though, am not willing to sacrifice our kids education and our future while we work to get these things done.

I feel the cuts that have been made to education are already too deep and to say "no more money" until all the other parts of state Gov. get their act together is the wrong thing to do, in a big way.

I also feel that now that I got word my car is done I best get my butt outta this office and go sell something!!! I would hate to have to add to our problems by going broke (er)!

Thanks for the 'chat'! :grin:

Dog

[ 12-17-2002, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Straydog]

Morning update re: cost of education.

See thread on this forum concerning cost of health care.

Timing is good.

Another big cost that came to me is computers and related technology.

Before I get flamed and have to read about the three R's, know that anyone not computer literate in todays world is at a tremendous disadvantage.

[ 12-18-2002, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[lost_sailor]

GSA,

try working as a teacher if you want to know "how hard it can be." These folks have the future in their hands and we need to keep the excellent ones instead of settling for the crappy ones. Talk to some teachers and see how many of them only work during school hours!

AND maybe the reason public employees are not quick to make the jump to the private sector is that they value public service over making a profit for some rich white man.

[GutshotApe]

Straydog - Computers are important in today's world but they're not the only thing. My sister-in-law is a substitute teacher in SW Wash. and she is a source of some of my opinions about schools. Two wives of foresters in my office were teachers in the Reedsport district and I heard a lot about what happens there. An old girlfriend was a teacher and the local OEA rep. She talked incessantly about the poor, downtrodden teachers. No wonder that didn't work out.

I haven't spent any time in public schools since 1965 (not counting community colleges & state universities). You no doubt have more exposure. So tell me, how many actual school days are there in the GP school district per year? How many additional days do teachers need to work? What is the average pay and benefits package worth? :whazzup:

[Straydog]

GSA,

No one said or even implied computers are everything.

Thank you for confirming you have no first hand experience in what goes on in the schools since you were a kid. Your comments told me that was the case and I appeciate you giving us the information to back those thoughts.

Sorry, I don't have your numbers on the top of my head and am not retired. If I get some extra time before Christmas I will see what I can come up but don't hold your breath.

Actually, I can't get you firm numbers because it would require adding up all the hours after school, before school, on weekends, in the summer, during the vacations, etc. etc..... I haven't the resources to get all of that info.

Since you are retired and if you really want to know, I suggest you volunteer at one or more of you local schools or even the board. You are an intelligent guy and in asking that I give of my time to provide you information tells me you really care. If I read you right, get involved and learn for yourself.

'Sides, you likely aren't going to believe me anyway.

[ 12-18-2002, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

New teachers have it tough. After tenure many (not all) loose interest and just become employes. The administration cost is what I feel can be cut. A frend of mine works in Admin. and the money that she tells me that they waste is criminal. New computers that just sit on bosses desks, trips, high salaries and much more.
The grade school and JR high where my kids went to school has 1/2 of the class rooms in "temporary" buildings (trailers) that were put in in the late 60's. The Administration has to have new office furnuiture every other year.

[Straydog]

Keta,

You point out a big problem in this discussion or, perhaps any discussions of state agencies.

Not all are created or run equally.

We cleaned house in our district about 11 years ago and got rid of a Superintendant that allowed things like you describe to go on.

It cost the district a bunch in legal fees and they even had to pay out a settlement to the crooked witch.

Still, she is gone and the Administration in Three Rivers School District probably does still have some fat that could be cut, but believe me, it is minimal. We are constantly looking for grant money for new computers and trust me, there are no new ones sitting unused.

If your school board is allowing the things you describe, they need to find the guts and parental support to get rid of the Supt. or they themselves need to be voted out.

Also, the building our dist. office is in is probably older than you!!! :shocked: :grin: and the furniture is mostly hand me downs.

The wasteful spending in our district administration office is absolutely a minimum if at all.

[ 12-18-2002, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[The Fishing Geek]

Straydog:

It's always easier to complain than it is to make change.

[GutshotApe]

SD - The answer is no public school district in Oregon has classes more than 185 days per year and most are at 180 or less. Portland may drop below 170. Teachers get several 3 or 4 day holidays, Christmas break (2 wks), spring break (1 week) and summer (10-14 wks) off with pay. They are supposed to "work" a few so-called inservice days but my pal's 4J dist. teacher brother always seemed to be on the McKenzie River on those days. Hmm........... And I don't buy the argument that teachers need to spend a lot of extra hours nights & weekends grading papers. Smart teachers should be able to figure out ways to get that work done during the school day - it happened back in the dark ages when I was a student so why not now? So what if they have to work a few 9 or 10 hour days - many, many people with college degrees work much longer days than that every day, are just as critical to a functioning society (pay taxes that go mostly to schools), and do it for less pay and a lot less benefits/retirement package than teachers get.

If I were Dictator of the Republic of Oregon, I'd ban the OEA. Round up the leaders, ship 'em off to Gitmo . The Oregon teacher's union is the tail wagging the dog. :depressed:

I would like to see the top saleries cut (not the principles) and more spent on books and class rooms. There are still many deticated teachers but there is also much dead wood. The teachers that aren't dooing a good job need to be weeded out and replaced with better ones. The principle and two teachers in the grade school that my kids went to were "transfered" out and replaced with lazy skum. The dedicated teachers and principle had the nerve to question Administration decisions. In another grade school two teachers (both married) were having an affair and the kids noticed it. An aid mentioned it to them and she was fired. Why? The grade school where my kids went is a dumping ground for "special needs" kids. It also has over 90% of the students qualifying for free or reduced meals. The work load for the teachers that care is heavy.

[Straydog]

GSA,

I can't discuss what goes on in the classrooms and how time is spent with you because you are indeed in the dark ages in reference to what goes on and the needs of the kids and consequently the teachers.

Further, you are making such broad based blanket statements that I don't have time to pick them all apart to show you the errors of your ways. To belive what you are saying one would have to believe that it is the same teaching first graders from two parent, stable family homes as it is to teach a middle schooler from a cocain addicted father and a mother that is MIA. You just cant get it. Sorry, I don't mean to be mean or pick on you but the reality is you just don't undertand.

In short, these are simply not the dark ages as when you were in school and very little is same there-fore you can not expect education to remain the same. It simply won't work. Leave it to Beaver is nothing more than a rerun on the Nick channel to many, many American families.

I would like to see the horns of the union pulled in a bit but if you eliminate it, then the teachers and schools will be at the mercy of ignorant people such as yourself and that would be very harmful to society as a whole.
Please note, ignorant is not a dirty word and does not mean the same as stupid...... I don't think you are stupid but your ignorance in this area is way too typical, even with many parents and there in lies a big part of our problem as well.


Geek,

Yes, I am afraid once again you are right.

We just two years ago got rid of a bad principal in my daughter's school. Once we got rid of her and demanded she be demoted, not just shuffled to another school, we then had to hire a new one. I was on the hiring committee for the one we have now and have to tell you it was a fight like few other I have been involved in with schools. Myself, another parent and a couple of teachers had to fight like crazy to prevent an indistrict person from being transfered in because we felt the out of district person would make a better principal for our school.. We won in the end but the politics of the district taking care of their own is big time as Keta alludes to in his district.

[ 12-18-2002, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[GutshotApe]

Sorry Straydog but I ain't buying it. That's like saying only combat veterans' opinions count on matters of national security and military questions.

I've been around enough teachers and teacher union activists to know the number 1 priority of the OEA is teacher salaries & benefits. Teaching kids comes in second place, or worse.

The system is broken. Far too many kids today can't read or spell worth a damn, can't find North America on an unlabelled map, are scientifically and economically illiterate, and are woefully unprepared to compete in the new global economy. Sure, some kids do fine and their home situation has a lot to do with how they perform in school. But I went to school with many kids who today would be labelled "disadvantaged" yet most learned at least the 3 Rs before being turned loose. We didn't have some of the distractions kids have today but we had our share.

I don't have all the answers or even most of 'em - I just have a hard time feeling sorry for teachers. They are mostly well paid and their pay and benefits are what most of the school tax revenue is used for. :smile:

[Dancin' Bear]

Originally posted by Straydog:
GSA,

Dancin' Bear,

I can only speak for our district as I am not knowledgable about others. I will respond from that perspective.

We have not been succesful in our district in gettin bonds passed so we have not had continually rising costs at ground level. We did finally pass a capital construction bond two hears ago. It was the first bond to be passed in our district in some 25 years and I am very proud to have been a part of effort to get it passed.

I think the reasons for growing expenses in our district are several.

PERs and the cost of general insurance are two major ones today. Insurance rates have sky rocketed. PERS was a sweet deal that was passed when people were blinded by the good times or someone had very incriminating photos of someone else, not sure just which! :whazzup:

Transportation costs in our district are huge, some of the biggest in the state due to our rural, spread out nature. As we all know, fuel costs have risen considerably over the years. Since we are so rural, we often times have buses going 30 or more miles with only a handful, at best, of students. In the case of Special Ed., we sometimes must bus single students over 30 miles to get them to the service centers they are required.

The cost of educating kids rises as family responsiblities seem to decrease. We are servicing many, many more kids from broken homes, substance abuse homes, poverty stricken homes, physical abuse homes and any combination of the above. This all takes more aides, teachers time and ultimately, money.

My wife volunteers as a SMART parent. The little gal she read to last year came from a home where the parents spoke no english and they had not one book in their home. You don't think it costs more to educate that child?

The principal at the highschool my oldest daughter graduated from two years ago told me he has to bring in extra councilers from around the district just before the holidays to try to help the kids that don't want a Christmas Vacation because school is the only stability they have and their life goes to hell in a hand basket at vacation time..... those kids cost more to deal with and educate.

I could go on with other examples but I am trying to keep this to a few paragraphs as requested... :smile:

I am also pooped!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Straydog - I just wanted to thank you for answering my question. I complain about my higher taxes for education and think it is a band-aid on a major wound, but I do not have the answers or any solutions. I was looking for someone to educate me from someone on the inside and you did that. Before I stumbled on this thread, I was the person saying "NO MORE BONDS! NO MORE INCREASES IN PROP TAXES! NO MORE MONEY TILL THEY FIX IT!" But now I feel I am a big enough person to say that my stand on this has changed. I still think the education system needs to be overhauled, but until that happens I will vote yes on future bonds.
Merry Xmas

[Straydog]

GSA,

No one is asking you or anyone else to feel sorry for teachers.

I am asking that you become educated on the facts, not what your sisters best friends uncle tells you over brewskies.

In the meantime, I too have some old school black and white mentality left and one of those is that there is a right and a wrong. You simply are wrong.

I defer to your first hand experience in the woods in most of our timber discussions, too bad you can not do the same in our education discussions.

Also, it is none of my business and you are free to tell me so but I am now curious, are you married and do you have kids?

[ 12-18-2002, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Straydog]

Dancin Bear,

Thank you very much.

If even one person is somehow enlightened by this discussion then my time has been well spent.

I also appreciate you being big enough to admit that you, like all of us can still learn a thing or two if we open our minds and try to accept truth rather than simply the popular mantra of the day..... It takes more effort but we end up better people for it at the end of the day.

Merry Christmas to you and your family as well!

[lost_sailor]

"the number 1 priority of the OEA is teacher salaries & benefits."

yeah, I would hope so! That's what unions are for.

Education is NOT the place to save money. I think the only "welfare" benefit should be a bus ticket to California (and you think I'm a "liberal" :smile: ) - - but in reality a lot of social programs have federal money tied to them ... net result of program cuts = even less revenue.

Teachers are not overpaid. I would NEVER take the job at any price.