Well done, Oregon Voters!!!

[TheRogue]

Regardless of how your candidate fared, or how your ballot measures went, everyone should be proud of the fact that the final tallies are going to approach 70% !!!!!

Gotta love the mail-in ballots.

Now, if we can just get people to vote during the non-general elections!!

TR

[Alligator]

glad it's over!

[ 11-07-2002, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Alligator ]

[Joe Schwab]

I wonder how many ballots get filled out by people who can't read English and are told how to check the boxes. I'll take the old way anytime!!

[Deepslayer]

I am with Captain Hook. If they can't take the time or energy to go to a polling booth and vote. I don't think they should be allowed to vote. There are always absentee ballotts for those who need them!

[The Fishing Geek]

I wonder how many people voted on a ballot measure or for/against a candidate who did not care enough or were too ignorant to do research on the matter first.

I'll bet that there were more of these types than naturalized Americans who do not speak or read the language. In fact, there is voting assistance available for people who speak many different languages so that they CAN vote. And many of these people are more likely to vote than others simply because they came from countries where voting for more than one candidate wasn't always available. They realize what a gift and a right a true democracy really is.

Now, if we could only come up with a method of helping the hopelessly STUPID who either vote based upon misconstrued information and blatant lies or, worse, they don't vote at all.

[Trick]

I personally think the mail in ballot is a great thing. Me and my wife sit down at the table, go through the voter pamphlets, discuss the issues and make better judgements in my opinion.

We have three young boys, we work and this is alot better for us. I dropped the ballots off after I took the kids to school. Works great for us!

[GutshotApe]

Geek - Casting uninformed votes is not good. I disagree with the ever-present mantra: "get out the vote". Not voting at all is a reasonable position for those who don't have the time or don't care enough to become informed. My neighbors are prime examples: Dan drives a truck and is gone a lot. Jan works in home hospice. Neither keeps up on current events, both are clueless about gevernment & politics, and both tend to form what opinions they do hold based on 5-sec sound bites on TV. To their credit, both recognize that they should stay out of it and leave the voting to people who have the time & interest to study the issues and cast informed ballots. Too bad more people don't feel the same way .

[The Fishing Geek]

Ape:

If they valued their right to vote more then they would find the time to learn about it. They have months to learn more, they just don't care to.

That's sad. They SHOULD care more.

Too lazy to go to the polls- too lazy to get informed.

The mail in ballot make it easier to cheat.

Geek,
I don't think the Democrats want the legitimate voters of this country to know what they're doing. :depressed:

[ 11-08-2002, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Straydog]

Keta,

Niether do the Republicans and I are one!!!!! :grin:

I would support going back to the polls if we did away with Siezmore's double majority rule on tax issues.

Thanks to his folly, about 6 money measures were on our ballot this time and they all lost in a big way....... not trivial, wasteful issues either, there was Library funding, parks funding, infrastruture funding and police and fire services. All local, all needed, all voted down, some due to the number of money issues on the ballot.

[ 11-08-2002, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Sadie-Lynne]

Go Siezmore !

[ 11-08-2002, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: look4elk ]

[DanS]

Hey,

What's a "legitimate voter"?

DanS,
Try Americian Citizen over 18 years old and with no felony convictions.

Dog,
I think you know how I feel about both sides, the Democrats just happen to be worse at this time.

[The Fishing Geek]

Yeah, go, Sizemore. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

I cannot imagine why people would support a person who was obviously and blatantly creating ballot measures that benefitted his rich and corporate sugar daddies, all under the pretence of helping the Oregon taxpayers. I'm so glad to see that his true colors are coming out in the wash.

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by Keta:
DanS,
Try Americian Citizen over 18 years old and with no felony convictions.

Dog,
I think you know how I feel about both sides, the Democrats just happen to be worse at this time.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">How are the Democrats worse at this time? Not arguing, just curious.

That no felony convictions...is that a national thing or just a few states?

[ 11-08-2002, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: The Fishing Geek ]

[GutshotApe]

Dog - All of Lane County's money measures were shot down and the double majority thing wasn't a factor - I think :whazzup: .

Geek - I agree, everyone ought to recognize that casting informed votes is more than a right and privilege - its a duty. But, to many people, the political scene is an incomprehensible maze and they gave up trying to understand it years ago. These are the people who, if they do vote, vote straight party line and that is not good, either. My neighbors freely admit they don't keep up and apparently are happy to let others decide for them (although they also do a lot of complaining about "the government" and believe there is no difference between the Ds and Rs). [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

[The Fishing Geek]

Hate to say it, but more and more these days there really is very little difference between the D's and R's overall. There are limited differences, but overall they seem to all be infested with the paracite that is corruption.

Geek,
Bill Clinton (old news), Grey Davis, South Dakota voter registration fraud, Dashel's conections with the airline industry, for a start.

Don't get me wrong here, both sides are boneing us and I probably will start having to oppose the "strip miner-clear cutters" now insted of the "save the earthers".

Why can't we have balance?

It doesn't look like the states economy is going to improve with "our" new governor but mabye I can get a state job now. The Republicans in Washington, DC most likely aren't going to come up with any extentions for the retraining money and might cut unemployment benifit extentions. Well at least I have the title to my property.

No felon should have the right to vote unless they have had their rights restored.

[ 11-08-2002, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[GutshotApe]

The differences between Rs and Ds may be difficult to see but just wait for the next session of congress. With a Republican house, senate and whitehouse, we might just see some changes. Heck, some of 'em might be for the better!

Unless the administration can get 7 or 8 D's (60 votes) to support them, Dashel will use the filabuster to continue his gridlock.

[walkersteelhead]

I just wish elected officials would learn to work with what money they have and quit trying to gouge us for more. Wouldnt it be nice everytime we don't have money to cover the bills we just ask our bosses for some money to cover them. According to this felons can vote in Oregon. http://www.fec.gov/votregis/state_vo...irements02.htm

[Straydog]

GSA,

Sizemore's initiative definately had an impact on all county money measures.

If not for double majority there would not have been so many on this ballot. Double majority forces money issues to be brought to the voters all at once rather than over time, given we rarely have a 50% majority. In the mid term elections double majority does not apply. Thus the number of money measures presented this time.

If you have 5 kids and they all approach you at once ask for 5 bucks you are less apt to give it to them than if they hit you one at a time over time. If one or more don't deserve the 5 bucks, they shouldn't get it but if they all ask at once, the good and bad of each are less a factor than the simple fact you don't like handing out 25 bucks at a time. Simple human logic and common sense.

I hope the Sizemore goes to jail and the legislature gives us a chance to vote double majority out.

Keta, we could argue about whom is worse but I don't have time to write it all and you don't have time to read it all..... a couple of hints, Enron, Florida election debacle and Ric Holt, ex Jackson Co. commissioner.....

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by GutshotApe:
The differences between Rs and Ds may be difficult to see but just wait for the next session of congress. With a Republican house, senate and whitehouse, we might just see some changes. Heck, some of 'em might be for the better!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Oh, they'll be for the better. For the better of who is the real question.

[Straydog]

Keta,

Your right but I didn't make myself clear....
I was refering to Bush and Cheney's connection to the people at Enron and in the industry in general.

In reference to Florida, it is my belief that a lot of the problems they have experienced have played well into keeping the state under the control of GW's bro and are likely less than coincidental at some level.

You are right though in that there are no clear good guys or bad guys....... neither party is clean.

[The Fishing Geek]

Keta:

I'll answer the questions that I have answers to.

It's actually been 15 years since we have had a Republican Governor in Vic Atiyeh. Long stretch indeed.

The reason why Oregon has such a high unemployment rate is easy: during the tech boom, many communities in Oregon sold their tax base and souls to high tech companies so that they would move in. They would give them huge tax waivers, pay for road and utility improvements, and even help train the employees. In return the company would promise jobs, which Oregon sorely needed after the timber and fish industries went kaput.

Then there were the happy times, when these tech workers bought into all the promises of long-lasting jobs. Worker confidence soared, and with that they went out and bought homes, cars, and even started playing the stock market where any fool could make a fortune. All was great until it became far cheaper to produce products off of US shores. As soon as that was the case, those tech industries dropped us like a worn-out girlfriend. All those jobs were lost, and when the stock market took a nose-dive their nest eggs disappeared. Cars were reposessed, homes were foreclosed on, and families were blown to bits. What makes it worse is that during those times when the counties gave out tax breaks to the big companies they had to increase taxes on the private citizens to make up for it. So now you have unemployed folks with a higher tax burdon than they can handle.

You see, that's what happens when companies are allowed to come in and **** the local workforce. What is left is nothing more than destroyed families and shattered dreams. All for the sake of the stock holder.

&lt;/rant&gt;

Dog,
Bush and Cheney are a little bit too close with the strip miner/clear cutter faction for me to feel secure with them in charge.

There seems to be a problem in Alabama with votes from a Republician controled district.

Geek,
What about rural Oregon? We never saw the "good times" and we were hit by the bad economy first. Over 80% of the children in the grade school where my kids went (youngest is in jr high now) qualify for free meals. The high school that my daughter goes to is a title one school. These things aren't new they have been that way for years, it has only become worse in the last two years.

Communities giving "sweet heart deals to companies is a bad thing!!! And the share holders (I am one) took it in the shorts too. The only ones to not get hurt were the company officers and directors, the ones that should be doing hard time with no chance of parole (this happened during the Clinton Administration).

[ 11-08-2002, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by Straydog:
In reference to Florida, it is my belief that a lot of the problems they have experienced have played well into keeping the state under the control of GW's bro and are likely less than coincidental at some level.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Ninety-three thousand voters were kept off of the voters rolls in 2000 because of a list of possibly-ineligible voters that was generated by DBT Online. Due to changes in the contract that were made by Katherine Harris that removed all but the most basic of checks, it is estimated by DBT Online that ninety thousand people were kept from voting when they should have been allowed. Curiously enough the majority of those folks were folks who would have voted Democratic in that election. And curiously enough that same list of 93,000 people was used this election. When election officials were made aware of this problem they said that they would fix it...in January, 2003. Long after the election. Agreed, Jeb won by more than 90,000 votes, but you can't tell me that the election wasn't on their mind when they decided when they were going to get around to fixing it.

There were other actions that took place throughout the state of Florida that assured that those in economically-challenged and notoriously-Democratic districts would have a tough time voting. (other than the well-publicized butterfly ballots and such). If you would like a list of them I'd be happy to provide them from my sources that I have at home. In short, Jeb and Katherine (who was, btw, a major campaign leader for GW during the 2000 election) gave George the state. Unfortunately, that also, ultimately, gave him the Presidency.

Don't throw me into the "poor whiney Gore supporter" group, because I'm not. While I would have rather seen Gore win than Bush, I do know that both were horrible choices for President. Gore, at least, had some experience and intelligence to fall back on. Bush was a "C" student in high school who somehow turned out to be a "C" student in an Ivy-League college, even with a full-load of extra-curricular activities such as the head of a social club. If you can tell me with a straight face that he didn't have someone writing his papers for him (at the very least) while he was in college then I'd submit that you need serious drug testing.

Now stop that! You're going to make me digress to the point where the blood vessels in my eyes are going to rupture.

[The Fishing Geek]

Keta:

I'm sorry that I'm not as informed about the plight of the rural workers, other than to say that the import of produce from places such as Mexico (NAFTA), South America, and Asia, as well as they buying out of large farms by large companies has largely forced the smaller farmers either into niche markets like all-organic farming or out of business entirely. When the large companies control the majority of the supply, and they also own the packing plants, they tend to drive out the little guys. Of course, the downfall of commercial fishing and timber hurt many small communities as well.

You keep mentioning that the corporate scandals that are being uncovered at the moment, and that they happened under the Clinton Administration. While you will never catch me saying that Clinton was anything more than an unscrupulous mega-politician, it must be noted that many ex-Enron and Arthur Anderson executives now hold positions in the Bush cabinet. Even VP Cheney (ex-CEO of equally-corrupt Halliburton) once held large numbers of shares in Enron, and President Bush travelled around the US during his campaign in the Enron corporate jet. That's Enron, whose headquarters were in Houston, TX. If you'd like a list of connections between Enron and GW that would make your hair stand on end, I can provide those from home, too.

Don't think for a minute that corporate corruption (or political corruption, for that matter) were somehow invented by or during the Clinton Administration. These things have been going on since at LEAST the 1800's, and what has been uncovered so far is only the TIP of a very big and very dirty iceberg.

[GutshotApe]

Geek - Bush may not be Phi Beta Kappa but he isn't stupid. He flew F-102 supersonic interceptors for the Texas ANG. I don't know how many hours in the 102 he logged but you don't log any hours and live to tell about it if you're an idiot like many believe he is.

Keta - Better get used to a having few more clearcuts on federal lands. As an ex-forester, I don't think of "clearcut" as a dirty word. Done right, clearcuts improve wildlife habitat (for species like deer, elk, grouse, etc.) and don't hurt fish habitat. And, they provide quite a few high-paying blue-collar jobs.

[fishbane]

Way to go Geek.
By the way folks you can vote in Oregon if you are a convicted felon. You just can't vote on national ballots just state and local.

One more thing one the people who were not allowed to vote in Florida one was the head of elections for a county. when she recieved her letter saying she was a convited felon( she had never been arrested for anything) and couldn't vote she called good ol Jebs office and they told her she would have to finger printed and back ground checked before she could vote again and that would not be complete until 90 days after the election.

And lets see our lovely vice president is being investgated for his books at haliburton and also the comapanies illeagle dealings with Iraq and there oil fields. umm now why are we really going to Iraq oh yeah for the oil.

Geek,
Shareholders don't have much say. Board members and officers (Halliburton) do. Any corprat ex that does anything illegal involving their companioes need to go to jail for a long time and the fines equal to at least 10 times their illegal gain.

GSA,
Small clearcuts spaced far enough apart are good. Large clear cuts (like the cut at Cube Cove on Admarality Is. in Alaska) are bad.

[ 11-08-2002, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[I Fred]

God Bless Rush, Lars, and Michael without their guidence I would be lost. Say anything loud enough and long enough and people will believe it.

BM,
You could also add Dashel, Gore, the Clintons and scores of other liars to your list.

[ 11-08-2002, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Joe Schwab]

Everybody keeps saying Bush is going to **** the environment. So he wants to drill in ANWR? So does all of Alaska and it's their state! Have any of you seen the enviro friendly rigs that APCO spent 12 million apiece on? They run out on frozen tundra, set up, drill, extract and transfer the crude without distrubing the tundra except at the head. When they leave they leave a well head and very little else.

The same goes for the modern logging methods. How many here have been behind closed gates to see the magnificent forest the private landholders have developed. Due mostly to conservative (Rep) laws the timber interest now have an incentive to put the land back better than they found it. We here in Oregon are suffering from lack of logging due to frivolous lawsuits by the eviro-geeks. The only bad forest left are those in state and federal hands and that is due to stupid management not overharvest.

I for one am ready to give the conservatives a chance to prove what thye can do for all of us. I'm tired of the liberals telling us what is good for us and if we don't agree we are out to destroy the earth.

Let's use what God gave us and use it sensibly.

[ 11-08-2002, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Capt. Hook ]

[Alligator]

Capt. Hook, you are correct!

The good news is:

Kulongsky may have won the governship for Oregon but I gladly trade governship for the Republican control of the Senate, and the House, and the Presidency. Good Trade :grin:

[ 11-08-2002, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Alligator ]

[walkersteelhead]

I agree Hook,we shall see how everything pans out.

Dog,
Enron-Democrats in charge (Republicians there too)

Florida- Democrat controled counties had the problems

Neither side is clean though

Geek,
Both sides are there for their own good. Fifty years of Democrat control (federal) is what created the mess we have today.

How long has it been since Oregon has had a Republician Gov? 12 or16 years? Why are so many rural Oregonians living below the poverty line (including me, I'm only one step away from the "Welfare Plantation")? Why is Oregon tied for the highest unemployment rate in the country?

[ 11-08-2002, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Straydog]

Originally posted by Keta:


What about rural Oregon? We never saw the "good times" and we were hit by the bad economy first. Over 80% of the children in the grade school where my kids went (youngest is in jr high now) qualify for free meals. The high school that my daughter goes to is a title one school. These things aren't new they have been that way for years, it has only become worse in the last two years.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Keta,
As usual, you make a real good point and one worth expounding upon......

Rural So. Oregon has always been one of the poorest areas of the state. Josephine Co. has been one of the poorest for as long as I have been alive.... 48 years. Yup, even during the so highly touted (myth) of the heydays of he timber industry.

My dad worked in a mill for 32 years. He did not make enough to for us to get ahead. We lived in same house for the first 18 years of my life..... a house that had been quite old when my folks bought it. After I got a little older my mom went back to work as we could barely make it on just dads wages. We ate a whole lot of hamburger, beans and good ol' "SOS"...... you know, 'stuff' on a shingle. The folks drove an old car until my grandfolks handed one down, then we had two old cars. (the '49 Chevy was pretty cool though!)I wore my brothers hand-me-downs and the church white elephant sale was the mall of my mom's world.

Every year around the holidays they would give all the guys at the mill a free turkey..... wrapped in a lay off notice. Dad would be out of work for weeks and in some years months at a time. My logger relatives would be out of work all winter and looking for assistance.

The myth that the timber industry was a cornucopia of family wage jobs was just that, a myth. Yes, they were good jobs and yes they paid well for the era but the reality is that they were seasonal adn as usual, the laborers were at the bottom of a very long food chain. Very, very few people were much above the poverty level and many homes had both mom and dad working to survive or get ahead.

Along with tough times, we had the privelidge of waking each morning to smoke, smog and windshields covered with soot and sawdust. The fallout from last summers fires reminded me of what it was like everyday as kid. It was
interesting this last summer to hear people exclaim about the ash and particles in and on their cars and recall how it was everyday growing up here.

In Klamath County, my Aunt was one of the first (and highly criticized for it) to push for the Head Start program in shcools. Oh, how the rednecks shouted when she worked for government assistance for all the poor Indians and farm kids..... this was in the '60's. I heard many, many stories of poverty and need.

So, in a nut shell, your right, "the good times" never really did hit Southern Oregon rural communities.......... not since the Gold Rush and even then the numbers that really prospered were few.

IMHO, the reason it has gotten worse in the last two years in your area is because of large corporate ranches and farms and the HUGE influx and influence of the fast food industry. It is not economical nor practical for the largest users of beef and potatoes to utilize small family farmers. Central production and distribution of goods to the McDonalds, Burger Kings, Carl's JR, Jack in The Box and on and on is the real culprit in the slow death of the family farmer.

Tourism, our remaining wild places and our quality of life are the real resources we should be relying on to sustain us into the future.

Just as change is not comfortable, it is indeed inevitable. :smile:

[ 11-09-2002, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Dog,
Nothing you say is not true.

However, I've seen the tourism industry destroy communities. They bring in jobs, but most of them are at minum wage. The impact of thousands of "visitors" each day destroyed what was a nice little coastal Alaskan town. The large corporations took over the little shops and businesses and turned
Ketchikan into a tourist trap.

[Straydog]

Keta,

Yes, I know what you mean.

On the other hand, what are our options?

Yes, hopefully we will see a few more timber job open up with the current administration as we should.

But beyond that, what are we to do? The tech industry is why we have the high state-wide unemployment we do today...... should we court them to So. Oregon?

Huge Agribusiness well continue to grow and shut out more family farms. (don't let Gordon Smith fool us, he is for agribus but in todays world the family farm is a smaller player in agribus everyday), the timber industry will help but not cure, mining is nothing more than a hobbiest industry except for a few aggrigate mines and they arent going to employ the masses.

I just don't see where we are going to grow and sustain if not in our tourism industry.

[ 11-09-2002, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

Dog,
True again. I have tried to get away from timber related work but every time I do something happens and I am back in the woods or mills.
The corprate farms have not taken over the Klamath Basin to the same extent as other areas but it is only a matter of time.

[Straydog]

Keta,

Ever thought of becoming a guide?

I know a guy in the industry that could and would help you get set up.

Of course, working with the public brings it's own set of challenges.........

You have so much knowledge and so many resources for hunting and fishing at your disposal you would be a natural in many respects.

[ 11-09-2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[The Fishing Geek]

Very interesting commentary so far, folks. Please keep it coming.

[Straydog]

Keta,

Your comments about trying to break out of the timber industry brings back another strong memory of my youth.

The mill my dad worked at, Southern Oregon Plywood, had a Superintendant that did all he could to take care of his people, even when they were bought out by large Corp. interests of the South. (the real reason Medco ended up going belly up in my mind..... )

One of the best things this guy did for the community and the families under his employ was to provide summer work for many, many kids that needed to get through college.

He and many others could read the handwriting on the plywood and strongly urged us to get an education and find work outside the very industry that supported them.

The vivid memory that brought this post on was the words of my dad when I took my first summer job at the mill, it was after my first year of college and dad said, in a manner only a dad can really pull off: "it's great you got this good summer job and I am happy Kelso hired you. However, if I ever see that you intend to make a carreer out of this mill I will kick your ass!"

He wasn't refering to a donkey, either! :smile:

[GutshotApe]

Jeez, you guys. I spent the last 30 minutes carefully composing a posting and when I hit the Add Reply button nothing happened and I had to reboot. Hate it when that happens!

To summarize, Oregon needs to capitalize on its natural strengths - timber, some forms of ag., and, yes, tourism. But tourism shouldn't trump everything else.

We can't compete with Taiwan and maintain our usual standard of living. We have the world's best forest soils, world's best tree species, and the world's most advanced forest practices rules. It would go a long way to solving some of rural Oregon's social woes if half or 2/3 of our state & federal lands were intensively managed like our private forests. I'm convinced we could create significant numbers of well-paid jobs in public lands forest industry and still have strong tourism and fish&wildlife. And there would still be 1/3 of the public forests left for hugging, etc.

Just my $0.02

Dog,

Your co worker B.B. has been talking to me about guiding on the lakes in this area. He told me that the lodges are always needing someone to take out people for trout and kokanee. I am thinking about it, but don't know if I want to make work out of my #1 past time. I do know it is far better than breaking your body fixing the machenery owned by people that don't care if you get hurt or not. Then when you do get hurt they toss you to the side and replace you.