Democratic Tax Cut??

[Deepslayer]

My son sent me this & I thought some of the saner people on this board would enjoy it!

If you don't understand the Democrat's version of tax cuts
(and you are not alone), this will explain it for you:

50,000 people went to a baseball game, but the game was rained out.

A refund was then due. The team was about to mail refunds when the Congressional Democrats stopped them and suggested that they send out refund amounts based on the Democrat National Committee's interpretation of fairness. After all, if the refunds were made based on the price each person paid for the tickets, most of the money would go to the wealthiest ticket holders. That would be unconscionable.

The DNC plan says: People in the $10 seats will get back $15,
because they have less money to spend. Call it an "Earned Income Ticket Credit." Persons "earn" it by demonstrating little ambition, few skills and poor work habits, thus keeping them at entry-level wages.

People in the $15 seats will get back $15, because that's only fair.

People in the $25 seats will get back $1, because they already make a lot of money and don't need a refund. If they can afford a $25 ticket, then they must not be paying enough taxes.

People in the $50 luxury seats will have to pay another $50, because they have way too much to spend. The people driving by the stadium who couldn't afford to watch the game will get $10 each, even though they didn't pay anything in, because they need the most help.

Now do you understand? If not contact Representative Richard Gephart or Senator Tom Daschle for assistance.
:whazzup: :whazzup:

[Alligator]

Deeps,

I did enjoy this. And the two dorks, Well My Daddy said if I don't have something good to say than don't say nothin at all.

les

[Myles]

hhmmmmmm, since when did the rich start getting taxed??

[Dan Christopher]

:grin: its all for the votes man :grin:

but at least there is a small amout of us in oregon that can figure them dem's out

[Straydog]

Deep,

That is a cute analogy but there is where it's value stops...... cute.

I suppose you think it is ok that everyone's tax dollars, dems, R's, indies. green's, and libertarians dollars all helped build the Jackson County Fairgrounds yet only the R's were allowed access to this facility to see the President last week.

There was more than 10,000 PUBLIC dollars spent just to decorate the arena yet if you did not recieve a ticket from the R's or a government agency you were not allowed to be on your property to see your president..... is that ok to you and all of the other R's except me?

[SandySteel]

Another analogy is applicable here.

The Republican party got ahold of the plan and they demanded not only the refund for the lost game but they also wanted free tickets to the next one.

Both Republicans and Democrats want public benefits. It's just the Democrats who are willing to pay for them.

Everyone pays to help their community. A flat tax appears fair on the surface. But is it fair that the less money that a person makes the more they have to pay in proportion to how much they make? If a poor Joe driving a beat up pickup gets a speeding ticket for $200 it hurts a lot more than some $200,000 a year yuppie driving a BMW to whom the tickets seems like chicken scratch.

Eric

[Jsail]

Eric,
I gotta disagree...... a flat tax should mean that the folks with less, the people that have been collectivley paying the most, will get a break and pay less.
The point to a flat tax is to get the folks and company's with a lot of write offs to start paying their fare share.
Either way you look at it, 10% is 10%. Let's say poor joe makes $20,000 a year and the yuppie $200,000. Joe pays $2000 and the yuppie pays $20,000.
If your reasoning is, that joe shold pay less than the yuppie for the speeding ticket; then the flat tax seems fare.
just my 2%

The $200,000 a year Yuppie is a Democrat and is responsible for the loss of 100,000 jobs in the resourse extraction industries.

[SandySteel]

Keta-Most of the guys who make that much a year are dyed in the wool, big business, republicans. Don't fool yourself.
You see I come from the Union rank and file democrats. We used to be republicans but there is no room for a socially progressive, fiscally conservative type folks in that party anymore. It is run pretty much by big business and the radical religious right.
I am generally ****** off at the environmental community for ignoring the loggers in the fight over old growth. Many of them came from an ivory tower point of view and didn't understand how to join forces with the average guy in the forest who is working his ass off for a living. The truth is most of the losses in jobs in the forest products industry were due to automation, shipping the raw materials overseas, and a declining market. But the environmentalists neglected to get forest products workers on their side to force the lumber business to keep jobs here. Instead they allowed the mills to set the agenda and to propagandize to the forest and mill workers. "It's not our fault we are closing this mill (even though we are shipping all of the logs off shore) it's the environmentalist's fault. They won't let us cut enough trees.
I guess it was easier for them to allow timber towns and jobs to die by winning in court than by trying to win the hearts and minds of the people who worked the forest.
It's a really troubling trend on the left for me in that these radicals (who also voted for Nader) are unwilling to compromise. They see your average rural worker as stupid and uneducated and have the attitude that people will "just adapt". They forget who it is that has helped them win against big business in the past and they are losing the fight to retain average rural folks on their side.
I have met these folks before and went to school with them. Most of them are head in the clouds trust fund twits who go to college and become radicalized because it is "cool" but have never had to work a day in their lives.

J-sail. If a flat tax is such a good idea, why is it that only big pocketed, fat cat republicans are in favor of it? Because it would mean a big tax cut for them and put a greater burden on the middle and working class.

There are more millionaire Democrats in congress than Republicians. More $200,000 per year Democrat yuppies. They didn't get rich by labor or trade work.

Most of my friends were forced to become Republicians by the Democrats mooving so far left that they would have beel called communists in the 50"s. And the Democrats support of the extreme enviro movements agenda.

Your statement here is a crock!

"The truth is most of the losses in jobs in the forest products industry were due to automation, shipping the raw materials overseas, and a declining market"

[ 08-30-2002, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Miss B Haven]

Ohhh Boyyy - You guys seem to be talking politics on this here fun type outdoors forum, but it must be those dead brain cells and I'm just halucinating. [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

How about we start the:

"IFISH PARTY"

[GutshotApe]

So what's wrong with a little political discussion? :whazzup:

Fishing & hunting, how we do it, where, when, bag limits, seasons, etc. - all these things have a political side. If we, who are most involved & affected, ignore the political issues then we will have decisions imposed on us by people with other agendas. IMHO those who tune out political issues (i.e. "there ain't a dime's worth of difference between the D's and the R's") are intellectually lazy . Yet, many of these people are among the first to complain when something occurs that they don't like. :tongue:

[Straydog]

Sorry Keta, I gotta throw in with Sandysteel.

What has been lost in all of the evironmentalist/landraper fighting is the fact that the timber industry could not sustain itself at the rate it was cutting, there simply are no longer that many quality trees to feed that huge machine. Further, I was working the Coast all through the'80's and would want to **** when I would read in the paper and hear on the talking head shows about the Enviro's killing the timber industry and at the same time count ship after ship after ship in Coos bay hauling raw logs to Japan. Even the Warehouser employees and unemployees were ticked. (and this is just one port) Now, with world trade, the market is such that the timber industry could NEVER, be a shadow of its former self.

[GutshotApe]

Straydog is right, a lot of private logs were exported to Japan (and some still are i.e. Longview Export Dock). But, on the other hand, isn't there a huge Toyota import dock in Portland? Why is one bad (exports) but the other (imports) OK? :whazzup: A local millowner who is very outspoken against log exports (a democrat) wants them banned effectively to subsidize his mill yet he thinks it is perfectly OK to buy his wife a new Mercedes :tongue: . Go figure!

For an idea of how much forest land the enviros have succeeded in removing from the commercial land base, check out pp. 190-191 in the new Atlas of Oregon. Over 15% of the state is in some form of protected status and 12.5% of the state is composed of timbered wilderness areas (2.1 million acres) and late successional reserves, or oldgrowth (5.7 million acres). That's a lot of wood. The creation of the LSRs put thousands of loggers & millworkers out of work for dubious and unproven purposes (IMHO). :depressed: One result we are sure of is the decline in deer (now) and elk (beginning).

GSApe [img]graemlins/program.gif[/img]

[Straydog]

Gutshot,

You make some good points concerning who's ox is being gored influencing ones view of the import/export discussion.

One thing to consider, do the Toyota forests of Japan provide them with clean air and water as well as salmon and steelhead habitat? That makes it somewhat different in my mind.

Also, based on the numbers you provided, my arithmatic tells me that 85% of our state is open for development and/or extraction..... not a bad number, now is it?

One other thing, be careful about falling into the trap of complaining that most of the old growth and second successional timber is in protected areas...... now might there be a clear reason as to why that is? Might it be that it is because it protected? Might it be that if it were not protected, it too would now be gone, some to provide jobs here, much to provide jobs in Japan?

As for the deer and elk, yes, they are being affected but my hope is that with different forest management and the reintroduction of fire to the system, we might be able increase those numbers without clearcutting and the negatives that go along with that.

One other thing to remember, there is no mill that can produce clean air, clean water and the prime Salmon and Steelhead spawning habitat that has been so grossly abused over the last century.

[ 08-30-2002, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[GutshotApe]

Straydog - Don't get me wrong - I'm not in favor of logging it all off. I do think, however, that there needs to be a better balance. For the past couple of decades things have swung way too far in the preservation direction.

The Late Successional Reserves were established in 1994 by the Clinton [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] administration - the same bunch that came up with the NW Forest plan that has failed to provide even 5% of the wood promised (which was less than 20% of the potential). The LSRs contain some once-cutover land now growing back as 2nd growth intermixed with millions of acres of true oldgrowth. Early successional forests (regenerating clearcuts) and the associated wildlife (deer, elk, etc.) are not provided anymore except by fire. Wouldn't it make sense to carefully log areas and capture the wood values instead of waiting for another big Biscuit-type burn?

15% of the state in Wilderness & LSRs may not sound like much but its just the tip of the iceberg. Most federal timberlands outside the officially protected areas are not being logged at all. The last figure I heard that 85% of the Willamette NF is off-limits to logging and the enviros file suit, tree sit, spike trees, etc. on the few sales that are proposed. There are currently over 5000 lawsuits pending regarding NF land management policies in the US.

In Oregon we have a very strong state forest practices act which limits clearcut size, mandates wide (up to 200') no cut areas along streams, strict road const. and maintenence standards and prompt reforestation. The main purpose of the FPA is stream protection. Based on my experience, these measures provide more than adequate protection for fish & wildlife.

By law, no federal or state timber can be exported - it has to go to domestic mills. All the logs you see going on ships (BTW, log exports are way down compared to the heyday of the 1980s) are from private land.

I just think we need to have resonable, realistic forest policies that take into account the needs of people as well as amenity values. We CAN have our cake and eat it too. Western Oregon & SW Washington have something unique: the world's most productive forest soils. Combined with the world's most useful tree species (Douglas-fir), it is an economic asset that should not be underestimated or casually discarded.

What has happened to the timber industry in Oregon would be akin to the states of Iowa, Illinois, etc. deciding to quit farming and turn the land back into prairie. Good for buffalo but tough on people who need to eat. People also need forest products. Many of those who would stop all forest mgmt. also want to close the fish hatcheries and ban all fishing...........

Oh well, I probably didn't convince anyone but its fun trying. End of rant.

GSApe [img]graemlins/program.gif[/img]

[hawgcatcher]

I don't know why you all are fighting over who is worse, democrats or republicans. If you look at them, they both are just about the same. I get tired of them sticking with a party line, when we elect them to office to do what we bid. If the people say one thing, by vote, then that should be the way things should be, not make decisions based on their own ideas.

[TheRogue]

Hawgcatcher...you're absolutely right. EXCEPT for the fact that the party leaders won't allow you to vote that way: by controlling the candidates that make it to the voter card. Just look at the last Presidential primary. I firmly believe that if the "powers" in the Republican party had decided on Sen. McCain instead of Bush, he would've won the primary....and he is moderate enough he would've won the general election hands down (instead of Bush being "appointed").

On the flipside, the Ultra-Green Al Gore scared off quite a few Dem's (including me!!), but that's who we were presented with.

[Jsail]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GutshotApe:
[QB]Straydog is right, a lot of private logs were exported to Japan (and some still are i.e. Longview Export Dock). But, on the other hand, isn't there a huge Toyota import dock in Portland? Why is one bad (exports) but the other (imports) OK? :whazzup: A local millowner who is very outspoken against log exports (a democrat) wants them banned effectively to subsidize his mill yet he thinks it is perfectly OK to buy his wife a new Mercedes :tongue: . Go figure!

Let's look a little deeper into this:

The Toyotas are built in Japan and then shiped to the US for sale. They suport their economy with the jobs to build the cars and the profit from the sales.
We on the other hand sell them raw logs. They mill them and sell them in Japan and other Asian markets. They agian stimulate their economy with income as well as cheap materials to support other business.

And we condem that damm rich guy who wants to ban the export of raw logs. The guy who wants to keep our labor force going so they can buy groceries and bait in their local communities.
Take a break and count how many times a log can make a profit if it is droped off at the local mill rather than at the pier.
From the mill to the wholesaler to the cabinet shop to the retailer to the contractor to the homeowner. There are a lot of people missing out when that log gets loaded on to a ship.

[GutshotApe]

jsail - Superficially, it may seem better if logs and other raw materials are required to be processed here but it ain't necessarily so. We don't make wheat farmers export flour, bread, Twinkies :grin: etc. We let the marketplace (supply & demand) determine what's best. The fact is, our resource base could supply both foreign & domestic wood needs if we would just get out of the way and let it happen. Instead, here in Oregon, we import Canadian lumber, plywood & chipboard. Talk about hauling coal to Newcastle!!!

A few years ago when we voted to ban log exports from state-owned forests, based on the actual price differential and on the numbers of jobs that a ban would "create" (including ALL jobs on both sides of the equation), we would have been better off to export State logs and could have afforded to pay those "lost" jobholders $50,000 a year to go fishing full time. That's what the export ban amounts to in the form of a subsidy just on state logs. If you have some logs, feel free to sell them wherever you want - just don't tell me I need to subsidize some millionaire's new Mercedes with my logs.

When I see the hoardes of foreign cars on US roads it is easy to understand where the Japanese get the dough to pay premium prices for their wood. I'm in favor of consistency. If logs exports are banned then lets put a stiff import duty on Toyotas, etc.

But, I digress. My original point, I think?, is that Oregon's once-strong, sustainable (Yes, sustainable!) resource-based economy has been severely reduced by radical changes in forest policy in the name of "protecting" the environment.

Bottom line: We could have both - a strong economy based on a resource unmatched anywhere else AND protection of other forest outputs like air, water, wildlife. Instead, we have a state full of depressed rural areas and now, smoky skies, burned forests and far fewer family-wage jobs.

Round log export = Job export
A big mistake and companies doing it should never have been allowed to log Forest Service ground.

[GutshotApe]

Keta -

Except for the Tongass NF, which was (is?) a special case allowed by congress, export of federal timber (USFS & BLM) has been prohibited as far back as at least the late '70s.

Since then, companies exporting their own timber were prohibited from bidding on federal timber or buying it from intermediaries (with a few grandfathered exceptions; and then only in limited amounts). Now, as far as I know, federal exports are strictly limited to Port Orford Cedar, only.

I agree when the supply is limited by artificial constraints, as in Oregon, then a total ban on all log exports might seem attractive.......that is, if it isn't your timber that is being devalued.

Enough, If I'm going fishing tomorrow, it's time to rack out.

GSApe [img]graemlins/program.gif[/img]

GutShot,
I lived in the Tongass and saw many things happening that were illegal and imoral. The mills had to cut 3 sides of a log to export. Native low grade logs got traided for Forest Service high grade logs and the quality high dolar wood exported to Japan in the round.

The export that I was talking about was in the early to mid 80's.

The timber companies also were harvesting very small logs and destroying their future harvests (east side Oregon).

The mills were not blameless, but lack of raw material was a big factor in the loss of jobs.
The mills in SE Alaska had their log contracts cut off (and enviro concerns too) and they shut down.

[ 09-01-2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

GutShot,
I worked for KPC and I worked for a loger that helped to **** the Sycan area. I have also hunted deer and grouse as well as traped on the land you mentioned out by JC Boyle.
ALP's contract was cancled before KPC's and eliminated the largest private employer in Sitka. ALP was the worse poluter in SE Alaska.
My job at KPC was to try to keep up with the enviromental regulation changes (all new construction was BOD or efluent related). Before we could come into compliance the regs were changed (I don't have a problem with the total elimination of discharges) and we were behind and fined. The Lousy A s s Pacific couldn't justify spending more money on the mill without a source of fiber and decided to tear the mill down. Over 1000 jobs gone in a town of 14,000 :depressed: .

[ 09-01-2002, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[GutshotApe]

Keta - Being so far from the rest of our land base, the Klamath River tract was sort of never-never land. Few in the company knew we owned it and nobody but me ever went there. I made periodic "inspection" trips, in October or November, and would take my 28 ga side-by-side and springer spaniel. Had some memorable hunts in the open areas on valley quail :smile: . The north-facing slopes were good grouse habitat too. We owned almost all the land around the JC Boyle reservoir and about half the river frontage up to a point below Keno plus 640 acres of mature p.pine just west of the bridge on hwy 66.

I drove past there (couldn't stop) earlier this summer and saw a county park sign on the road going into the south side of the river at upper slackwater. Is the land now county-owned and is public access & hunting still allowed there? :whazzup:

GSApe [img]graemlins/program.gif[/img]

There has always been a small chunk of county land on the SW side of the bridge.

[GutshotApe]

Keta -

I bet if you look up the work "porkbarrel" in the dictionary it will have a picture of the Tongass and the 50 year (?) deal made with Ketchikan Pulp Co [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img] . At the time congress approved it, the now-expired contract might have made sense but today it clearly would not pass muster. Plus, as you said, there were lots of abuses, cheating & waste.

You are also correct about there being some examples of poor forestry practices on private lands i.e. Weyco's rapid liquidation of its Long-Bell tract west of Sycan marsh that you possibly are familiar with. At least they replanted before getting out.

These things happen when the decision makers, driven by stockholder demands for profits, are located in far away cities and have no real stake in the local community. I worked for a New York-based company with 240,000 acres scattered in southwestern Oregon (we had 2000 acres near KFalls along the river between Keno and JCBoyle Dam, our only pine land). We had a profitable, sustained-yield forestry program with assured harvests into infinity. But in the late '80s, after the spotted owl ESA listing (and the impending murrelet and coho listings) the NY office decided Oregon was not a safe place to invest. So, we liquidated 30 years worth of timber in the next 8 years, the remaining land & timber was then sold, and all 250 of us lost our jobs. :depressed: The new Oregon-based owners are gambling they will be able to recoup their investment by harvesting the 2nd growth, and I hope they can. So far they are showing restraint and seem to have a long-term outlook. I also understand the forces that caused the rapid cutout and getout by my ex-employer. They bought nearly 1,000,000 acres of timberland in the southeastern US with the money from the Oregon sale. I hope they succeed down there because they send me a retirement check every month! :grin:

GSApe [img]graemlins/program.gif[/img]

[GutshotApe]

Keta - Wasn't that once a PP&L park? What I'm curious about is the road that goes north off hwy 66 about 1/2 mile east of the bridge. It went 1/2 mile or so to the upper end of the res. where the Klamath comes in. I thought I saw a sign that said "Sportsman's Park - Klamath Co." or something like that where the gravel road leaves the hwy. But I wasn't driving and couldn't get the driver to slow down or go back (fishing partner getting more cranky as he gets older) . I'd been afraid that property was going to end up in 5-ac ranchettes so was happy to see it looks pretty much the same as before and might still be huntable ground . GSApe [img]graemlins/program.gif[/img]

GutShot,
East side of the river to the north. Yes it was PP&L land but the county purchased it and it now is a gun and archery range, ATV course, remote control model airplane runway, and access to the Klamath River. The area is closed to hunting around the developed parts.

I can't remember who owned the timber land, was it IP?

[GutshotApe]

Keta - yes, it was managed out of the Weed office until we "inherited" it when IP sold all Calif. lands to Fruit Growers in the early 80s.

BTW, I see you have a new picture thingy on your posts - a dog salmon? How do you make that appear up there? :whazzup: GSA

[Salmon Stryker]

WOW!!! What a response! Deepslayer- I thought it was a funny joke. LOL :grin:

[Deepslayer]

You're right SS! It's amazing how worked up some people can get! I think I will try a religious joke/post next time and see what the response is from some of the Johnny come lately religions!! :grin:
,Ed

GutShot,

Yes I found a nice picture of a dark chum salmon.

Find a picture and be nice to Jen. She fixed it up for me.

[ 09-01-2002, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Straydog]

So, tell us Deepsleeper, just how "worked up" are we, based on a fairly long, intelligent conversation?

What is the "worked up" guage you used to come to your conclusion?

I ask this as a serious question.... what makes you think anyone is "worked up"?

Ok Dog! [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img] I have had it with you :grin: ! I am "worked up" now! Were just going to have to meet up and settle this like men (fishermen that is) :smile: Lamiglass rods at 6 paces? K16 Quickfish? Your choice!


[ 09-02-2002, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Straydog]

Should a known some spud farmer would call me out..........

You're on pilgrim! K 16's, wrapped or unwrapped, the choice is yours. :grin:


[ 09-02-2002, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[John]

Deepslayer that was the best post I have ever read on the Ifish board, bar none. Simply awesome!!!

[John]

In fact, that was such a great post I saved it and will be Emailing it to all of my friends and Family. Simply a work of art!

[John]

Last time I checked Sandy Steele the people with the most money in congress were Demos. Lets see John Kerry, Billery Clinton, and Kennedy. All of the fat cats in Hollywood are Demos and say to be for the people, but when the people step on their beaches they gate them off. If you are the head of the Sandy Stealheaders then I will not be renewing my dues this year!

John,
Just because some people are confused or misguided doesn't meen that you have to boycot them. Some can be shown the right path and will see the light. :grin:

[DanS]

You have it all wrong. When the GOP is in control, you go to all the ballgames you want to, and pass off the cost on your kids and grandkids.

That's GOP "Family Values" at work.

[John]

Dan you want to talk family values lets see here. First who tried to ban the Pledge in schools? A liberal court. Who is throughing the Boy Scouts out of schools? Liberals, and they also banned the military recruiters from schools. Who wants to make it ok for young under age girls to have abortion with out perental notifcation. Humm, I wonder. Liberals again.

[DanS]

Hey John,

You must have a second-rate public school education, huh? Otherwise you'd know that the judge that ruled on the pledge was appointed by tricky Dick Nixon and was NEVER considered a liberal until one of his rulings went against the conservative mindset, or should I say "mindfreeze"?

If you don't like the US Constitution, then you'd better get that Uncle Sam avatar off your posts.

[TheRogue]

John....they didn't ban the Pledge, they just banned the religious reference. It was NEVER a part of the original pledge, just put in there by Congress to "differentiate" us from "the bad guys". I guess if you don't believe in the Christian God, you're a bad guy??

No-one kicked out the Scouts or the Military. They were just asked to change their ways. Schools (at least REAL public schools; I don't know about your private schools) don't discriminate on the basis of sexual preference. Shouldn't that hold true for anyone who recruits at the school, during school hours or school-sponsored activities??

I was a Cub Scout, and a Boy Scout. I will strongly encourage my son to be involved as well. Hopefully, I'll be able to be involved in his activities, as my father was always working 12/7/365....and I didn't get to experience it.

As for the abortion issue....hey, if we all follow the Rep mindset, and ban all abortions, and then stick our heads in the sand, it will all go away, right? :whazzup: :whazzup:

TR

Rogue,
Do you think that homosexuals should be allowed to recrut in the Boy Scouts? Let them do their recruting in the public school system and the intertainment industry and leave the BSA alone.

[DanS]

Recruit? For what? The US Homosexual Association? Special today only: Join the USHA and get 4 free passes to see the Teletubbies.

If a Scout leader has done nothing other than be gay, he should be persecuted huh? Nice.

You DO know that the vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual, don't you? Should we ban all male coaches of girls' sports? After all, they won't be able to control themselves, right?

You so-called conservatives love to toot the "indiviadual rights" horn UNTIL somebody's rights override your own beliefs THEN you want their rights taken away to protect yourselves from being offended.

You are right about the sexual orentation of molesters but what kind of an idiot would let ther son go "camping" with a homosexual Scout leader?. I am not a homophobe but there are somethings that only a moron would condone.

[John]

I guess it would be ok to have members of mambla as scout leaders.

They do have rights. :grin:

[John]

It does not matter who appointed the member to the bench. After all David Souter was appointed by George Bush and he leans to the liberal side. Next, I guess then by what you are saying is we should eliminate In God We Trust from money. Get rid of God Bless America. Stop using the Bible to swear people into government positions and into court. Also, where in the constition does it state anything about not using the word god. It states that the state can not be involved in organized religion or religous persecution, but no where does it state that "under god is unconstitional. When you read this and find it let me know. Even with my second rate public education I know the constition.

[TheRogue]

Do you think that homosexuals should be allowed to recrut in the Boy Scouts? Let them do their recruting in the public school system and the intertainment industry and leave the BSA alone.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Recruiting into homosexuality??? Are you THAT homophobic?? Do you think most of them really like how they feel most of their lives??

And as for the gay scout leader arguement.....well, aren't most leaders at the Cub Scout level(and some in Boy Scouts) women?? "Den Mothers"?? Boy, guess we should stop that like right now!!! Bet they all just love having a den full of cute boys......

Ok, got out of hand a little there....but I sincerely hope you get my point!!

TR

Cub Scout leaders are mostly weomen.
Boy Scout leaders are mostly men.
I am not anti gay, I have a cousin that is gay and several friends that are.
Like I posted earlier "what kind of idiot would alow their son to go camping with a homosexual" . Did your father let you? :grin:

[ 09-24-2002, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[TheRogue]

Next, I guess then by what you are saying is we should eliminate In God We Trust from money. Get rid of God Bless America. Stop using the Bible to swear people into government positions and into court. Also, where in the constition does it state anything about not using the word god. It states that the state can not be involved in organized religion or religous persecution, but no where does it state that "under god is unconstitional. When you read this and find it let me know. Even with my second rate public education I know the constition.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Should we eliminate all reference to God?? That's a darn good question. I note that you didn't capitalize the word "God" the last time you used it. Taken in the context of "a god" or "any god(s)" would probably be better, although that still doesn't satisfy the aetheists. God Bless America is the name of a song, not THE official song, that would be the Star Spangled Banner. I love the song, whistle it all the time. If someone objects to being sworn in on the Bible, they don't have to....they also don't have to use the phrase "so help me God".

Do you know that the Bush regime is currently doing their darndest to funnel aid money to Christian religious organizations, with NO STRINGS ATTACHED?? :whazzup: :whazzup: Ok, you say, great, they'll do what's right. Of course, since the homeless on Burnside won't submit to being baptized or christened, they won't get any of those federal benefits...but, hey, if they'd just get proper religion, they'd be OK!!

Phew!! That's enough, gotta hit the sack early so I can chase the big 'uns in the morning.

Keta.......back when I was a kid, if someone in my neck of the woods turned out to be gay, they got run out of town!! Heck, the county sherrif also met hitchhikers at the county line, gave 'em a haircut, and drove them to the other county line!! Free ride!! :grin: :grin:

TR

[ 09-24-2002, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: TheRogue ]

[John]

The Consition or Bill of Rights states that Congress shall make no law respecting an established religion, or prohibit free exercise of. Scince when did God become a organized religion?

[STGRule]

John: Soft question. Exactly what WOULD change in the United States of America if all references to God were removed? Honestly, what would change? Before you jump down my thoat, I'm am not an atheist, I am Methodist.
And about camping trips with gays, I don't remember anybody EVER talking about or pushing sex when I went to camp. It just never came up. I went to church camp, girl scout camp, and outdoor school, with both obvious sexes and I'm sure some gays also. Nobody ever talked about anything other than camp, learning and fun. Why does any grown-up adult think it would be any different for any other child? Pedophiles are the scary thing, not gays. And since most pedophiles are heterosexual males, I might have a problem sending my son to boy scout camp.

[DanS]

Why would I care if they took "In God We Trust" off the money? Do you think my spirituality is based on what it says on my dollar bills?

Besides, it's only BEEN on the money since the 50's.........right during the McCarthy era. Yep, them's proud times for the good ol' USA, huh John?

[Straydog]

Rogue,

Interesting you bring up the past Curry Co. past sherriff and his habit of escorting hitch hikers through Gold Beach.

As a young 'wanna be' long hair garage band hippie in the late '60's, I used to slow burn when my uncle, a deputy of the good sherrif B, used to brag about first taking them to jail for a wire brushing before letting them go down the road......... seemed the more they could make em bleed, the more fun it was. :blush: [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

[ 09-25-2002, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[GutshotApe]

Straydog - I once heard a story involving sheriff "B" many years ago. Something to the effect that two young hipsters in a drift boat got tired of all the big jet tour boats roaring by so they mooned the next several. I think Mr."B" was then an ex-sheriff and was piloting one of the mooned boats full of offended tourists. He got on the radio and called his friends/relatives who were county sheriff deputies and they met the two drift boaters at the next takeout and escorted them to the county jail for some personal attention to their grooming standards, then a trip to the JP (fined for disturbing the peace), then a trip to the county line. Or maybe it was when B was still sheriff and his relative/friend was the tour boat driver - something like that. :whazzup:

[Straydog]

GSA,

Yes, I am not suprised..... he one or two of his kids have all driven the boats. He also owned Paradise lodge at one time.

One of the kids darned near ran me over as I was fighting a fish just below the cement mixer.

Yes, I was fighting a fish pretty much in channel on light gear. As he entered the big pool at Bear Canyon I held my rod high and gestured to let him know I was into a big fish. Rather than shut down in the frog water he chose to blow by me, clearing me by about 1 foot and screaming "you're in the channel!!" while blowing by...... I was fishing alone and had my hands full trying to control my boat and fish at the same time. And we thought they wanted to just get along and share the river........!?!?!

They all seem to kind of have the attitude that that is their county and their river.

The late '60's, early '70's is an embarassing time for the actions of my uncle and my cousin's husband's actions in relation to our family name. Both were deputies for the good sherrif B and my cousin's husband was the deputy that was the sharp shooter in the highly questionable killing of a holed up pot farmer that made the mistake of stepping out of his cabin to take a leak. At least, that is how the story panned out up river here. :blush: :blush:

[ 09-26-2002, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[GutshotApe]

SD - Yes, I remember the incident - on Pistol River in the mid-1970s? Weren't two shot, brothers maybe, by sheriff's deputies from across the river, with .22-250s? You're right about some Curry County natives' attitude about "their" river. Its theirs by right of proximity, I guess.
GSA