When working up a new load do you

ehunter · 03-08-2009, 06:01 PM

shoot 50 yards or 100 yards? I have my gun sighted dead on at a hundred yards so I have been shooting 100 but I occasionaly get a flyer and not sure if it is me or the loads?

Twodogs · 03-08-2009, 06:20 PM

100yrds then 200yrds

ehunter · 03-08-2009, 06:32 PM

I will get to 200 and then 300 once I have settled on a bullet and load.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twodogs

100yrds then 200yrds

baltz526 · 03-08-2009, 06:45 PM

sometimes a load that looks great at 100, is terrible at 300

ehunter · 03-08-2009, 06:50 PM

Baltz do you start your load development at 50 or 100?

Quote:

Originally Posted by baltz526

sometimes a load that looks great at 100, is terrible at 300

baltz526 · 03-08-2009, 08:17 PM

100yds. what i do is make three loads at .002 approximately off the lands if the bullet/magazine allows it. in 3 different powder charges. when i find the best load, i'll load up several then shoot longer

ehunter · 03-08-2009, 09:10 PM

OK thats what I have been doing. Thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by baltz526

100yds. what i do is make three loads at .002 approximately off the lands if the bullet/magazine allows it. in 3 different powder charges. when i find the best load, i'll load up several then shoot longer

huntercope · 03-08-2009, 09:47 PM

How many loads are you making per different powder charge?

baltz526 · 03-09-2009, 06:12 AM

in development i make 3.

StickFish · 03-09-2009, 06:20 AM

If the magazine allows the length I will start at .002" or so off the lands otherwise its as long as the magazine will allow. I start at the minimum powder charge and shoot five rounds. Depending on the cartridge I move up a certain amount of powder watching for signs of pressure, overly flattened primers, vertical stringing, case head expansion exceeding a certain figure. At that point I back down to the powder charge below that one. Next I start to look at adjusting OAL to tighten the groups with that powder charge. If I can't find a sweet spot, switch powders and start over. All work done at 100 yards.

Hunt'nFish · 03-09-2009, 07:28 AM

5rds per charge weight, starting at min and loading up past max in 1gr increments. .010" off the lands. All test loads are shot @ 100yds on the rest onto individual targets. Load data, group size, velocity and any pressure data remarks are recorded on each target.

All I'm trying to do at this point is find a sweet spot velocity that is under max pressure.
From there I'll tweak OAL and distance from lands by varing seating depth but,
many times I won't go that far as I've already determined a load of suitible accuracy for my purposes.
Hunt'nFish

ehunter · 03-09-2009, 08:02 AM

Thanks guys, I started out with 3 rounds at the low end and have worked up each round in .5 so far still in the middle. Last week I had some good groups so this week I have 5 rounds each and I am still trying to get the OAL down. I did buy a OAL Hornady gage but not sure I have that figured out Maybe I will know more today after I get back from the range.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunt'nFish

5rds per charge weight, starting at min and loading up past max in 1gr increments. .010" off the lands. All test loads are shot @ 100yds on the rest onto individual targets. Load data, group size, velocity and any pressure data remarks are recorded on each target.

All I'm trying to do at this point is find a sweet spot velocity that is under max pressure.
From there I'll tweak OAL and distance from lands by varing seating depth but,
many times I won't go that far as I've already determined a load of suitible accuracy for my purposes.
Hunt'nFish

Don Fischer · 03-09-2009, 08:17 AM

First thing I do is establish the max pressure for the rifle. Start at min load going up 1/2 gr at a time till I find either cratered primers around the fireing pin hole, case head expansion or the bolt get's sticky. Then I back off that about 10% and work up loads in three each to a grain under max. I find the best shooting but must be under 1 1/2" group at 100yds. If two loads give good group's I then reload 5 each and re-shoot at 100yds. Once I've found the best one there I move to longer ranges. After the longer range's I pick the best overall and shoot it across my cronograph. Then make up a drop chart for that load out to some range I determine I'm willing to shoot the load. All my rifles are zero'ed for MPBR at either a 3" or 6" target depending on what I'm using them for.

Hunt'nFish · 03-09-2009, 08:34 AM

IMO, all test loads should be shot on one day.
This eliminates effects of temp and other human variables into the velocity/pressure/accuracy data.
I wait 2min between shots.
I also start w/ a very clean rifle and do NOT clean it throughout the session.

I also skip every other load and cover the range, finding max pressure and then coming back to fill in the gaps or points of interest. Nothing wrong with tearing down loads back at home. A good impact bullet puller makes short work of that.

As I mentioned before, I always load up 2-3gr PAST Max. No I don't expect to fire them, but in my experience many times my rifle will support charges past published max. Remember they use minimum dimension test barrels.....ours aren't and typically turn in lower pressures for the same charge. And since I'm loading for MY barrel's chamber, I load up and fire whatever charge it will support....monitoring velocity & pressure all along the way and inspecting cases thoroughly.

Nothing worse than getting to published max loads only to find velocity is low and pressure seem equally low and wishing I had my whole bench on hand to load more.
So load past max and expect to tear down some test load back at home.
Remember I'm after the data, and I must find what MAX pressure is in my rifle.

I also like to do most of my load eval's on a hot day. this means my pressure will be worst case. It would be sad to develop a load on a cool day only to find sticky extraction on a hot day. Not that we should be loading that hot, but I know folks who do. I'm not one of them.

After getting home I'll ponder over the data, look at the cases further, record case lengths & head diameters. And I compare that data to the cases dimensions from pre-firing. I consider velocity loss per 10F of reduced temp and pick a load that I think would be perfect at 30-70F. Typically this means I pick a load that is just hotter than my sweet spot charge...IOW, groups are just starting to open up on today's hot temps. This results in being well centered in the sweet spot velocity range on a cool day.
Something to think about there.
Hunt'nFish

Hunt'nFish · 03-09-2009, 08:59 AM

After the initial load eval is done, I'm eaither happy as is, or OAL gets tweaked and another eval is shot with groups .015", .010", and .005" off the lands.
(I rarely need to do this as .010 off the lands seems just fine.)

Final sight in work goes like this....
I've already settled on a load, I know the velocity & bullet BC so I calc ballistics and settle on a zero point.
Many times this is 200 for non-magnum and 300 for magnum cartridges.
I zero the rifle at correct range (using a rangefinder mind you...no pacing off distances.)
I shoot a 5rd group at zero range (recording velocity) and then fire a group at 500 and a few ranges in between. I make no site corrects as I do so. Again I'm after the drop data, I'm not trying to put every bullet in the bullseye.
From there I plot the data and compare back the the ballistics calcs.
They rarely match perfectly.....so I tweak the BC in the calcs until I get a better match between real data and calcs. Once I get the improved ballistics, those are the ones I use in the field and those are the ones I print my cheat sheets from.
All this data is archived in the log boks w/ tha targets and load data.

From there it's just a matter of tweaking the sight in until I'm happy and from there I'm good to go.
I shoot 500yd on some warm/cool/hot days to get a feel for the correction values nessesary to compensate for differant conditions and then I call it good and go hunt.

Oh one final thing....elevation. I use the elevation of my shooting range for sight in & BC corrections, but after that I use elevation data for my expected hunting. For me that is 5000ft where as my range is about 1000.
So the data I carry in the field is my 5000ft data...NOT MY 1000FT range data.
It hasn't affected my hunting results.
Hunt'nFish

Blowing Smoke · 03-09-2009, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunt'nFish

IMO, all test loads should be shot on one day.
This eliminates effects of temp and other human variables into the velocity/pressure/accuracy data.
I wait 2min between shots.
I also start w/ a very clean rifle and do NOT clean it throughout the session.

I also skip every other load and cover the range, finding max pressure and then coming back to fill in the gaps or points of interest. Nothing wrong with tearing down loads back at home. A good impact bullet puller makes short work of that.

As I mentioned before, I always load up 2-3gr PAST Max. No I don't expect to fire them, but in my experience many times my rifle will support charges past published max. Remember they use minimum dimension test barrels.....ours aren't and typically turn in lower pressures for the same charge. And since I'm loading for MY barrel's chamber, I load up and fire whatever charge it will support....monitoring velocity & pressure all along the way and inspecting cases thoroughly.

Nothing worse than getting to published max loads only to find velocity is low and pressure seem equally low and wishing I had my whole bench on hand to load more.
So load past max and expect to tear down some test load back at home.
Remember I'm after the data, and I must find what MAX pressure is in my rifle.

I also like to do most of my load eval's on a hot day. this means my pressure will be worst case. It would be sad to develop a load on a cool day only to find sticky extraction on a hot day. Not that we should be loading that hot, but I know folks who do. I'm not one of them.

After getting home I'll ponder over the data, look at the cases further, record case lengths & head diameters. And I compare that data to the cases dimensions from pre-firing. I consider velocity loss per 10F of reduced temp and pick a load that I think would be perfect at 30-70F. Typically this means I pick a load that is just hotter than my sweet spot charge...IOW, groups are just starting to open up on today's hot temps. This results in being well centered in the sweet spot velocity range on a cool day.
Something to think about there.
Hunt'nFish

I agree with you word for word. The only thing I can add is if you are working up loads with all copper bullets Barnes, Nosler E-tip, Hornady version of all copper x-bullets. These bullets are all longer in length and often are not settled down yet may still in "YAW" at 100 yards. I have had guns that shoot 2" groups at 100 yards and same load 1/2"-5/8" at 200 and 300 yards. This is really more common problem in the 6.5mm and 7mm calibers, but is possible in all calibers when using longer bullets......BS

Big Billy · 03-09-2009, 10:02 AM

I would load at least five rounds of each clean and scrubb the barrel inbetween have some old factory ammo to fire one shot after each cleaning as the first round after cleaning is not usually the most accurate. Then with five rounds you have 1 or 2 extra just incase you flinch (heaven forbid) or some other strange phenominon happens while you are shooting that causes the bullet to not go exactly where you wanted it. IMHO

Chesapeake · 03-09-2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blowing Smoke

I agree with you word for word. The only thing I can add is if you are working up loads with all copper bullets Barnes, Nosler E-tip, Hornady version of all copper x-bullets. These bullets are all longer in length and often are not settled down yet may still in "YAW" at 100 yards. I have had guns that shoot 2" groups at 100 yards and same load 1/2"-5/8" at 200 and 300 yards. This is really more common problem in the 6.5mm and 7mm calibers, but is possible in all calibers when using longer bullets......BS

I've heard this several times now from people and I just cant wrap my mind around it.

So at 100 yards the pattern is 2", but at 300 its 1"? So the bullets wander off path and then somehow wander back on path some how consistantly?

The other way I've heard it, that maybe makes more since is that at 100 yards the pattern is 1MOA and at 200 its only 1.5MOA. This would seem to indicate that the bullets wandered off path more in the first 100 yards than they did in the next 100 yards.

I still cant explain this, but atleast have some belief that its possible.

brshooter · 03-09-2009, 11:46 AM

I don't see anyone mentioning wind flags. I never do any development without wind flags. I don't want to rule out a group when it was the nut behind the trigger that was loose. Horizontal strings are usually from missing the condition. Vertical strings are usually the load and means adding or backing off the powder a bit.

Blowing Smoke · 03-09-2009, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chesapeake

I've heard this several times now from people and I just cant wrap my mind around it.

So at 100 yards the pattern is 2", but at 300 its 1"? So the bullets wander off path and then somehow wander back on path some how consistantly?

The other way I've heard it, that maybe makes more since is that at 100 yards the pattern is 1MOA and at 200 its only 1.5MOA. This would seem to indicate that the bullets wandered off path more in the first 100 yards than they did in the next 100 yards.

I still cant explain this, but atleast have some belief that its possible.

Have you ever scene a football thrown and leave the quarterback hand with a little woble and by the time it gets to the reciever it has righted it's course into a spiral. Also spinning an old time top you first spin it it wobbles and then it settles down to constant spin for a duration of time and falls back out of balance then falls over. This is an over simplifies it but along the same principle. Not that the football wanders off course to it's intended target. This problem generally happens with long bullets all copper design and or Berger vld and lot of match grade and plama bullets. The bullets do stabalize it just may not be in 100 yards. All guns stablize the the bullets at different ranges, may be a couple feet from the muzzle or over 100 yards ,the biggest reason you may not be able to wrap your head around it is in most cases 100 yards is the given general accepted sight in range and in most cases bullets have settled down by that range. I could go on for hours getting into $100.00 words to explain this it's get really in depth fast. This is not like the Matrix movies where a bullet can wander off course and being able to go around corner type and impact it's target. I hope this helps and if you do not call Berger bullets or Sierra bullets help line and they can explain to you better. No I was not trying to Hijack this post just offer additional info

....... To clarify things I'm talking about all copper bullets are longer in length of bullets of traditional copper/lead core design. They bonded poly tip bullets seldom cause problems except for barnes and lost river bullets....Not talking about cartridge OAL.........BS

ehunter · 03-09-2009, 01:29 PM

Thanks guys for all the input just came home from the range and just about settled on my load I am going to do a little treaking on the load. BS I am shooting Honrady interbonds and the honrady book shows the OAL to be shorter than the standard OAL for other bullets is that why? Today I had some great groups at 100 no stringers and most in the inch mark. I will take that load out to the 200 next and see how it holds together. I am not getting very consentent groups with the accubonds I am shooting 165 bullets in both the hornady and accubond. I have been using the IMR 4350 but I will try the Accubonds with another powder and H350 and see how that works. Thanks guys for all the input.

Mike we still need to get together. I am still trying to figure out the OAL gage and get good readings.