Antelope Management Question

So to draw a buck antelope takes what...an average of 10 years?
So my question is:Why do we have either sex hunts or fawn hunts? Who would want to shoot a fawn antelope? If it is because of damage and population control...wouldnt relocation be a better alternative? I would suppose Relocation is $$$ but sheesh take for example Hunt #465 Buelah...I doesnt even have a buck antelope specific hunt just 1 either sex hunt....just seems strange.

[baltz526]

alfalfa without game fences= population control by tag. alfalfa with game fence= a lot more game over time for us to buy tags for. we are subsidizing private property owners with the reduction of big game herd numbers. because the private property owners are too selfish/greedy to protect their property.

[loper]

Originally Posted by Tulley

I would suppose Relocation is $$$ but sheesh take for example Hunt #465 Buelah...I doesnt even have a buck antelope specific hunt just 1 either sex hunt....just seems strange.

Consider the fact that the gross income for 5 years worth of pronghorn auction tags totals $81,400; the dollars just don't seem to exist to support the various projects that could enhance the species.

[baltz526]

what about the 1.68 million tons of alfalfa produced in oregon at an average of $175 per ton = 294 million. could the alfalfa farmers not spend a few pennys of this 294 million per year income on fence http://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_...ts/01_13an.pdf

[gottafish]

Originally Posted by Tulley

Who would want to shoot a fawn antelope?

Meet Billy 15 years old in this pic. Thought it was the greatest hunt ever!!!

Originally Posted by gottafish

Meet Billy 15 years old in this pic. Thought it was the greatest hunt ever!!!

I am sure he did, and I am sure he had a great time. I personally am of the opinion that fawn hunts aren't the way to manage antelope population..but hey, thats just me. Thank you for offering another side of the story.

[Old Soldier]

Get involved 10% of the buck antelope tags to go to land owners. Add a few years to drawing a tag.
HB 2219 read the bill then write your Representative. Writing here is great but letters to your Representative is better!!!!!

Agriculture, Natural Resources and Rural Communities
Office: 347 Phone: 503-986-1751

Date: Tuesday-March 10
Time: 8:00 A.M.
Room: HR D

Public Hearing HB 2218 FIRST PUBLIC HEARING: Extends surcharges on certain hunting and angling licenses. HB 2222 FIRST PUBLIC HEARING: Increases fees on specified angling and hunting licenses. HB 2628 FIRST PUBLIC HEARING: Authorizes moneys available for access and habitat programs to be expended on programs that promote access to public and private lands through acquisition of lands or through acquisition of easements.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Originally Posted by baltz526

alfalfa without game fences= population control by tag. alfalfa with game fence= a lot more game over time for us to buy tags for. we are subsidizing private property owners with the reduction of big game herd numbers. because the private property owners are too selfish/greedy to protect their property.

I see your point, but the alfalfa is a valuable food source for deer and antalope in the desert. No Alfalfa and expect to see significantly less MD and Antalope in many units.

[Wetwrk2]

The LOP's are still only for the nannies and fawns...who wants a trophy fawn??? They need to drop it all together or hand out some buck tags to the landowners!! Heck I buy the seed, pay for the water rights, I have to buy the new fence posts, and broken fence. And I bought the land and pay the land taxes. Then there's fueling the tractors, bailers, swathers. And the farm hands. Oh wait, then the drought, so we only get maybe one cutting. Come-on ODFW hand out some LOP buck tags so I can get what's getting me!!-WW

[Eagleclaw]

Originally Posted by Wetwrk2

The LOP's are still only for the nannies and fawns...who wants a trophy fawn??? They need to drop it all together or hand out some buck tags to the landowners!! Heck I buy the seed, pay for the water rights, I have to buy the new fence posts, and broken fence. And I bought the land and pay the land taxes. Then there's fueling the tractors, bailers, swathers. And the farm hands. Oh wait, then the drought, so we only get maybe one cutting. Come-on ODFW hand out some LOP buck tags so I can get what's getting me!!-WW

Build higher fences around your property and you won't have lope problems. if you don't want them on your land then build a fence so they can't have access to your property. Sounds pretty simple to me. Then you won't have to feed them anymore.

[Wetwrk2]

Holy cow you know how much that would cost? I bet it would be a easy 100K$ Man-o-man money like that don't grow on tree's!! A .270 round is like .20 cents!!-WW

Originally Posted by Wetwrk2

Holy cow you know how much that would cost? I bet it would be a easy 100K$ Man-o-man money like that don't grow on tree's!! A .270 round is like .20 cents!!-WW

But how much crop does shooting a fawn save?

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Originally Posted by Tulley

But how much crop does shooting a fawn save?

You guys are missing the point, the reason that there are either sex seasons is to allow L.O.'s to recieve LOP tags and also to allow hunters who may not be successful after years of waiting to atleast kill a doe at their seasons end.

Originally Posted by willametteriveroutlaw

You guys are missing the point, the reason that there are either sex seasons is to allow L.O.'s to recieve LOP tags and also to allow hunters who may not be successful after years of waiting to atleast kill a doe at their seasons end.

What do fawn hunts do then?

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Originally Posted by Tulley

What do fawn hunts do then?

You can kill a fawn with your antlerless deer tag too, there is not a antalope unit in OR that has fawn specific limits. They can't call it hornless hunt because some doe antalope have horns.

[baltz526]

Originally Posted by willametteriveroutlaw

I see your point, but the alfalfa is a valuable food source for deer and antalope in the desert. No Alfalfa and expect to see significantly less MD and Antalope in many units.

if you fence the alfalfa, it could make the wildlife move to their natural habitat. in their natural habitat they may re-learn survival instincts lost in the current ranch pet situation we are in now

[jschainsaw]

I think Tulley just wants to argue...must be board

Originally Posted by jschainsaw

I think Tulley just wants to argue...must be board

Interesting post. I guess they all can't be "Word Association" Posts.

[James in Idaho]

I don't think antelope are dependent on alfalfa, I've seen really healthy populations where there is no alfalfa. If it's there, they'll use it. One evening while hunting them in Wyoming I counted over 300 in one circle, dang tough to get close to that many eyes with a .54 Hawkin! Doe hunts are just a population control method, if you look at the length of the head you can tell if you're looking at a fawn or a doe. Sometimes when you find fawns by themselves it's tough to figure out if it is a mature animal. The first year we hunted 'em with our front stuffers one of the guys got in a hurry to kill one and shot a fawn. Not much meat on one of those, heck even a big doe you'll only get 30 to 40 pounds of boned meat.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Originally Posted by baltz526

if you fence the alfalfa, it could make the wildlife move to their natural habitat. in their natural habitat they may re-learn survival instincts lost in the current ranch pet situation we are in now

I'm not sure about that, where I hunt they feel safe in the pivots and once there on BLM they are very wary. I think the alfalfa helps the deer and elk honestly more than the antalope.

[huntsforfood]

first everyone always complains that oregon doesnt do a good enough job with managing for quality animals like other states do. but they do a very good job with antalope and everyone knows oregon produces b&c animals every year. if you want to shoot more lope bucks thats fine but dont expect us to keep our great b&c bucks, then everyone will blame odfw... shooting does and fawns keeps things in balence and allows our bucks to grow. also i am a liscensed fencing conractor, 4 stand 4' tall barbed fencing is around $1.35 lnft... do the math people not practical, o and lope dont jump fence they go under it

[James in Idaho]

But antelope will jump fences! The ranch I've hunted in Wyoming has 3 foot sheep fench with two strands of barb on top. The 'lopes can't crawl under it, so they jump it. Pretty funny to watch, not their prefered method of fence crossing. That kind of fencing has to cost a bundle these days, how much has fencing material gone up in the last 5 years??

Originally Posted by huntsforfood

first everyone always complains that oregon doesnt do a good enough job with managing for quality animals like other states do. but they do a very good job with antalope and everyone knows oregon produces b&c animals every year. if you want to shoot more lope bucks thats fine but dont expect us to keep our great b&c bucks, then everyone will blame odfw... shooting does and fawns keeps things in balence and allows our bucks to grow. also i am a liscensed fencing conractor, 4 stand 4' tall barbed fencing is around $1.35 lnft... do the math people not practical, o and lope dont jump fence they go under it

I am not a B&C hunter. Never have been never will be. I just want to be a buck antelope hunter.

[loper]

Originally Posted by James in Idaho

Sometimes when you find fawns by themselves it's tough to figure out if it is a mature animal.

Had that happen in Montana once with a set of twins; turned out they were quite a bit closer than we thought they were (3 pairs of eyes deceived, not just 1 ).

[Crappie Chaser]

Is there anywhere in Oregon that antelope actually exceed the carrying capacity of the range?

[huntsforfood]

Originally Posted by Tulley

I am not a B&C hunter. Never have been never will be. I just want to be a buck antelope hunter.

thats awsome, wyoming has some great otc opportunities that anyone could take advantage of and kill a respectable buck lope... i am not a b&c hunter either, but i will get a trophy lope every ten years, cant say that about deer or elk. i will be going to other states to hunt deer and elk and lope, not just for bigger animals but i do have alot better chances at trophy deer and elk in other states, and am excited that oregon is managing lope for some great trophies. o and btw i hunt buck antalope every year, in oregon... if you take a closer look at the regs you can too.

[Wetwrk2]

Originally Posted by huntsforfood
first everyone always complains that oregon doesnt do a good enough job with managing for quality animals like other states do. but they do a very good job with antalope and everyone knows oregon produces b&c animals every year. if you want to shoot more lope bucks thats fine but dont expect us to keep our great b&c bucks, then everyone will blame odfw... shooting does and fawns keeps things in balence and allows our bucks to grow. also i am a liscensed fencing conractor, 4 stand 4' tall barbed fencing is around $1.35 lnft... do the math people not practical, o and lope dont jump fence they go under it

Then multiply that five miles by five miles not counting the cross fencing to break up the range. To properly manage a cattle outfit you split up the grazing area's so that the cattle are moved into new ground so they don't over graze and damage it, we call it rotating. That quote didn't cover fence post's either, are you going to go with steel or wood? Railroad Ties for the corners, and rock-jacks, juniper posts last pretty good but they aren't free either, now throw in clips for the steels and staples for the wood..then lets add in the biggy, the labor. 100K easy. Mom and Pop and kids rancher just aint gonna pull that off. Maybe some city-slicker corporate outfit with a hobby hay ranch can afford to just throw up a whole new fence line but those of us who are working our great great grandpaps place are just patching what he'd put in..and darn it a lot of it was three strand.
When we cut our last lope out of the fence he'd rapped the whole deal..somehow crawling under the bottom strand he wrapped all of it? We have resident antelope. I've lived with them all growing up, took a 20year vacation(according to Dad) now I'll be living with'em again till I croak he-he! Starting again I'll be putting in for our unit so I can draw eventually one of the resident antelope. I have no interest in shooting fawns or doe's or shooting a lope not on our place. I'll get one eventually.-WW

[baltz526]

Originally Posted by willametteriveroutlaw

I'm not sure about that, where I hunt they feel safe in the pivots and once there on BLM they are very wary. I think the alfalfa helps the deer and elk honestly more than the antalope.

here is where a lot of people make a mistake. deer,elk and antelope become ranch pets, when they become trained to alfalfa fields. if you want healthy growing herds of game, they need to learn survival skills in a non agricultural setting. if you do not believe me, i can take you to an area to prove that deer are losing their ability to survive off the alfalfa fields. in some areas fencing pivots would solve problems. pivot can be 160 acres so my calculator spit out 1/3 sq mile per pivot and 6,970ft of fence with two big gates. with 8' game fence and 10' steel posts with 12' pressure treated round post corners and centers stretchers. is what would get bid. i'll bet one cutting on the field would pay for the complete fence installed

[klr kut]

Originally Posted by baltz526

alfalfa without game fences= population control by tag. alfalfa with game fence= a lot more game over time for us to buy tags for. we are subsidizing private property owners with the reduction of big game herd numbers. because the private property owners are too selfish/greedy to protect their property.

How do you figure we would have more game to hunt if this private ground was fenced? Where do you think all the game goes in the winter when there's 5 feet of snow in the mountains? Look at the big picture. You fence all those acres , and have about one third the food available you'll have alot less game to hunt outside the fence. There's alot more feed per acre on a pivot than in the hills.Those critters don't live their whole life inside that 160 acre pivot. They come and go and alot of them fall to hunters every year.

[baltz526]

your missing the point again! "in some areas" the game animals NEED to be fenced out of the pivots. so they can learn to survive in the wild. ranch pets "in some areas" need to be forced off the pivots to rebuild the herds still living in the surrounding native habitat. to claim the game needs the pivots is not anywhere close to reality

[Idahoan]

Wow.....reading some of the posts on this thread; it isn't very hard to answer why ranchers and farmers don't allow hunting on their land.

First, you bash them for grazing their livestock, even though they have been doing it long before we were here. Then, you bash them because they don't fence off their land. Calling them greedy, when they are just trying to make living and be profitable and control their costs. One cutting may be their profit for the entire year.

Everyone in this state has contributed to the decline and degrading of habitat. The cities and roads and houses themselves have a far more lasting and higher impact.

Besides aflafa fed antelope are pretty darn good tasting.

[huntsforfood]

Originally Posted by baltz526

here is where a lot of people make a mistake. deer,elk and antelope become ranch pets, when they become trained to alfalfa fields. if you want healthy growing herds of game, they need to learn survival skills in a non agricultural setting. if you do not believe me, i can take you to an area to prove that deer are losing their ability to survive off the alfalfa fields. in some areas fencing pivots would solve problems. pivot can be 160 acres so my calculator spit out 1/3 sq mile per pivot and 6,970ft of fence with two big gates. with 8' game fence and 10' steel posts with 12' pressure treated round post corners and centers stretchers. is what would get bid. i'll bet one cutting on the field would pay for the complete fence installed

6970x 1.35 = 9400
175 per gate x at least 2 prob 4 for a pivot= 700
that is for 4' tall barbed...
do you know how much one 10' t post is or 8' game fencing is? 1 cutting could not pay for a fence. look into the cost of this before you talk like you know how much it really is. it would put a ranch under.

[jschainsaw]

Originally Posted by Idahoan

Wow.....reading some of the posts on this thread; it isn't very hard to answer why ranchers and farmers don't allow hunting on their land.

First, you bash them for grazing their livestock, even though they have been doing it long before we were here. Then, you bash them because they don't fence off their land. Calling them greedy, when they are just trying to make living and be profitable and control their costs. One cutting may be their profit for the entire year.

Everyone in this state has contributed to the decline and degrading of habitat. The cities and roads and houses themselves have a far more lasting and higher impact.

Besides aflafa fed antelope are pretty darn good tasting.

Right on

[baltz526]

Originally Posted by huntsforfood

6970x 1.35 = 9400
175 per gate x at least 2 prob 4 for a pivot= 700
that is for 4' tall barbed...
do you know how much one 10' t post is or 8' game fencing is? 1 cutting could not pay for a fence. look into the cost of this before you talk like you know how much it really is. it would put a ranch under.

actually i do know how much 8' game fencing costs AND i know how much money a good alfalfa pivot makes for an average cutting. to think a buisness should not protect their own investment, with their own dollars?

[BrianMaguire]

Originally Posted by Wetwrk2

....And I bought the land and pay the land taxes.

Originally Posted by Wetwrk2

Originally Posted by huntsforfood
but those of us who are working our great great grandpaps place are just patching what he'd put in..

In a previous post you said your purchased the land, which one is it?

[portman]

Ranchers point of view; My family has been farming this place sense 1870 about 2500 acres in rural eastern Or. medium sized for our area . In 1973 we put in 8 center pivots. Before the irrigation it was a dry land wheat and rangeland operation with 1800 acres of wheat, we had a resident population of mule deer of 6 to 12, after the irrigation was started with in a few years we now had 100 to 250 head and some years even more. If you think these are in some way farm "pets" bring up a bow and try to get close enough for a shot! They do a lot of crop damage not in what they eat, more shattering and bedding down and nox. weed spreading. We are 30 miles from the blue mts. but in the winter of 1992 at best count 530 head of elk spent 3 months feeding on three pivots of fall seeded canola. The snow was a foot and a half deep and we normally never see an elk down this low but it was a drought year ,on march 15th the O.D.F.W. finely hazed them back toward the mts. The bed news was they wiped out the entire crop of canola , which by the way was on me a loss of $150k the elk hunters above Heppner should have thanked me at least!! Now the "antelope" numbers are growing in our area and I apply just like the rest of you for the ten buck tags allocated for this zone. Fencing out game animals would be dandy for me but then there wouldn't be but a few animals in this area........"Better to remain silent and appear uniformed , than to open your mouth and prove it"

[klr kut]

Originally Posted by portman

Ranchers point of view; My family has been farming this place sense 1870 about 2500 acres in rural eastern Or. medium sized for our area . In 1973 we put in 8 center pivots. Before the irrigation it was a dry land wheat and rangeland operation with 1800 acres of wheat, we had a resident population of mule deer of 6 to 12, after the irrigation was started with in a few years we now had 100 to 250 head and some years even more. If you think these are in some way farm "pets" bring up a bow and try to get close enough for a shot! They do a lot of crop damage not in what they eat, more shattering and bedding down and nox. weed spreading. We are 30 miles from the blue mts. but in the winter of 1992 at best count 530 head of elk spent 3 months feeding on three pivots of fall seeded canola. The snow was a foot and a half deep and we normally never see an elk down this low but it was a drought year ,on march 15th the O.D.F.W. finely hazed them back toward the mts. The bed news was they wiped out the entire crop of canola , which by the way was on me a loss of $150k the elk hunters above Heppner should have thanked me at least!! Now the "antelope" numbers are growing in our area and I apply just like the rest of you for the ten buck tags allocated for this zone. Fencing out game animals would be dandy for me but then there wouldn't be but a few animals in this area........"Better to remain silent and appear unformed , than to open your mouth and prove it"

Well said from a experienced point opf view.I guess they would rather see the herds die off from massive winter kill than have those "ranch pets" ruining their hunting experience.

[baltz526]

Originally Posted by portman

Ranchers point of view; My family has been farming this place sense 1870 about 2500 acres in rural eastern Or. medium sized for our area . In 1973 we put in 8 center pivots. Before the irrigation it was a dry land wheat and rangeland operation with 1800 acres of wheat, we had a resident population of mule deer of 6 to 12, after the irrigation was started with in a few years we now had 100 to 250 head and some years even more. If you think these are in some way farm "pets" bring up a bow and try to get close enough for a shot! They do a lot of crop damage not in what they eat, more shattering and bedding down and nox. weed spreading. We are 30 miles from the blue mts. but in the winter of 1992 at best count 530 head of elk spent 3 months feeding on three pivots of fall seeded canola. The snow was a foot and a half deep and we normally never see an elk down this low but it was a drought year ,on march 15th the O.D.F.W. finely hazed them back toward the mts. The bed news was they wiped out the entire crop of canola , which by the way was on me a loss of $150k the elk hunters above Heppner should have thanked me at least!! Now the "antelope" numbers are growing in our area and I apply just like the rest of you for the ten buck tags allocated for this zone. Fencing out game animals would be dandy for me but then there wouldn't be but a few animals in this area........"Better to remain silent and appear unformed , than to open your mouth and prove it"

you lost $150,000 because you did not protect your investment. you put the pivots on your land, drawing the game to the area. these game animals you now have, are missing from the surrounding natural area. in the public land that once held these game animals, before the center pivots where installed, deer and antelope had the skills to survive. now being agricultural dependant animals, they have become domesticated. in "some areas" like yours, these pivots should have been fenced from the begining as a condition of installing the pivot. "you the farmer" would have saved millions of dollars since 1973 from damage, and "US" public land hunters would still have wild game to hunt. you pivot owners are in buisness to make money? why do you not use all the tools you have, to make money on your land? why do pivot owners think because they have game on their pivots, these game animals are doing well? these are herd animals, that are designed to survive over their complete range. this range is huge and allows the mixing of herds for diversity. when YOU concentrate these game animals (by not game fencing) in one area (your pivots) the herds do not travel through out their complete range. stoping the mixing of herds accross the range. this is very harmful over time to "some" muledeer and antelope. i can show you a couple of pivots that hold 90% plus of all the deer and antelope in a several hundred square mile portion of a couple hunt units. in this area west nile virus is present, now that the pivots have gathered these animals into a couple square miles, if a desease is introduced how fast do you think these herds will transfer it. since they all are concentrated in a couple square miles? FENCE is a part of the solution.

[Eagleclaw]

Originally Posted by portman

Ranchers point of view; My family has been farming this place sense 1870 about 2500 acres in rural eastern Or. medium sized for our area . In 1973 we put in 8 center pivots. Before the irrigation it was a dry land wheat and rangeland operation with 1800 acres of wheat, we had a resident population of mule deer of 6 to 12, after the irrigation was started with in a few years we now had 100 to 250 head and some years even more. If you think these are in some way farm "pets" bring up a bow and try to get close enough for a shot! They do a lot of crop damage not in what they eat, more shattering and bedding down and nox. weed spreading. We are 30 miles from the blue mts. but in the winter of 1992 at best count 530 head of elk spent 3 months feeding on three pivots of fall seeded canola. The snow was a foot and a half deep and we normally never see an elk down this low but it was a drought year ,on march 15th the O.D.F.W. finely hazed them back toward the mts. The bed news was they wiped out the entire crop of canola , which by the way was on me a loss of $150k the elk hunters above Heppner should have thanked me at least!! Now the "antelope" numbers are growing in our area and I apply just like the rest of you for the ten buck tags allocated for this zone. Fencing out game animals would be dandy for me but then there wouldn't be but a few animals in this area........"Better to remain silent and appear unformed , than to open your mouth and prove it"

Thank you... i hunt Heppner. So can i bring my bow and hunt some of your pet deer?

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Originally Posted by baltz526

you lost $150,000 because you did not protect your investment. you put the pivots on your land, drawing the game to the area. these game animals you now have, are missing from the surrounding natural area. in the public land that once held these game animals, before the center pivots where installed, deer and antelope had the skills to survive. now being agricultural dependant animals, they have become domesticated. in "some areas" like yours, these pivots should have been fenced from the begining as a condition of installing the pivot. "you the farmer" would have saved millions of dollars since 1973 from damage, and "US" public land hunters would still have wild game to hunt. you pivot owners are in buisness to make money? why do you not use all the tools you have, to make money on your land? why do pivot owners think because they have game on their pivots, these game animals are doing well? these are herd animals, that are designed to survive over their complete range. this range is huge and allows the mixing of herds for diversity. when YOU concentrate these game animals (by not game fencing) in one area (your pivots) the herds do not travel through out their complete range. stoping the mixing of herds accross the range. this is very harmful over time to "some" muledeer and antelope. i can show you a couple of pivots that hold 90% plus of all the deer and antelope in a several hundred square mile portion of a couple hunt units. in this area west nile virus is present, now that the pivots have gathered these animals into a couple square miles, if a desease is introduced how fast do you think these herds will transfer it. since they all are concentrated in a couple square miles? FENCE is a part of the solution.

Really the elk and deer we all hunt had a much higher winters survival rate because they were able to eat his crops. Sorry Baltz, I dont buy it, there is not adaquate winter range out there for the populations that exist..

[baltz526]

you can go ahead with non belief. but facts are facts

[BrianMaguire]

Originally Posted by willametteriveroutlaw

Really the elk and deer we all hunt had a much higher winters survival rate because they were able to eat his crops. Sorry Baltz, I dont buy it, there is not adaquate winter range out there for the populations that exist..

OK, so I hear its not a habitat issue, its a managment issue with MO's, cougars, etc, now there is not enough winter range, so it is a habitat issue. The deer and elk did not suddenly appear from thin air, they were someplace else in this instance, and now they are on the pivot. (BTW- I thought you could not grow canola in Oregon, I though ODA would not allow it , something about pollinating native plants). Now they are on the pivot, should we issue a bunch of damage tags to help the farmer? They were attracted to the pivot from the traditional winter range, whereever that was (probably someplace less appealing than winter canola). I just don't see why hunters should suffer because the farmer choose to do something that would shift the winter range patterns of the game. If they never planted the pivot, the game would be down to the resident 6-12 deer, not 500 head of elk (which would cause huge damage). I think the point here is, if you are going to put in a crop that game will be attracted to, either protect yourself from the damage, accept some loss to game, but don't ask the rest of us to have game reduced simply because the crop shifted the natural wintering/summer/whatever range.

[Drake5]

why is it that people that dont own ranches seem to always know whats best for the ranchers and the game animals around them.My family has three ranches in Jordan Valley we have alfafa fields for cattle feed in the winter,were not selling it .So where do we get the extra money for fencing.Please enlighten a dumb cowboy what to do.

[BrianMaguire]

Originally Posted by Drake5

why is it that people that dont own ranches seem to always know whats best for the ranchers and the game animals around them.My family has three ranches in Jordan Valley we have alfafa fields for cattle feed in the winter,were not selling it .So where do we get the extra money for fencing.Please enlighten a dumb cowboy what to do.

Why is it that people with ranches always know wats best for the rest of us? Its all about perspective, there are several sides and people's views are going to differ. The views you see here are legitimate views, especially when talking about public assets, public land, water and the public's game. I also don't think the non ranchers were saying they know whats best for ranchers, just game.

This post is about why does it take 10 years to draw an antelope tag. Why? Because the hunter numbers are greater than the antelope populations can sustain. So if you increase the antelope pop's by doing away with the damage doe hunts you increase the populations. Pretty simple, except, now they may be on your pivots, hence the reason for the doe tags to begin with. Have not even touched public land grazing and the effects of that on forage for game.

[baltz526]

Originally Posted by Drake5

why is it that people that dont own ranches seem to always know whats best for the ranchers and the game animals around them.My family has three ranches in Jordan Valley we have alfafa fields for cattle feed in the winter,were not selling it .So where do we get the extra money for fencing.Please enlighten a dumb cowboy what to do.

since jordan valley is not one of the areas that have the problem pivots from my experience. it has other issues on state lands winter range. PS: i have hunted access of jordan valley ranchers. bill, tim and a couple other ranchers, my family have known for decades are great people.

[Drake5]

Baltz, you are correct we dont have pivots but we also have deer,antelope and elk in the winter.they come into our fields year around morning and evening ,we lose alot of feed to these animals,but we dont mind as much as you would think.we like to watch them and also hunt them we dont charge people to hunt our ranch but we also dont let very many people hunt there either.not that we think the animals belong to us.Every day after the deer leave our fields they bed for the day on public land.If you were to hunt over there you would have just as good of a chance getting a deer as you would on our property.If you and yours have permission to hunt property in jordan that says something about you because were a tough bunch to convince city people are o.k.

[WSU]

I have to say that the economic arguments are the most compelling in this post. I realize that fencing would be expensive, but isn't losing 100's of thousands of dollars worth of eaten crops rather expensive? To be honest, I'm not sure how much fencing that kind of money would buy, but I bet it is a lot. It is a known fact that agriculture will draw big game animals, and that those animals will eat the profits of farms.

It seems to me that farming is a business that should be run like other business. If another business knew that something was going to cost them money every year (sometimes a lot of money), knew how to fix the problem, but did nothing about it, would we feel bad for them? I think not. Should we then give them special privileges, such as damage tags and in some cases money for the damages caused, as a "bail out?" If you want to be in the business of farming, why not run it like a business and protect yourself from known risks?

Drake5 shows another side of the argument, and one that I tend to agree with. He knows the animals will be attracted to the fields, but doesn't mind the damage they cause. That's fine by me. If he did mind, I don't think giving him special privileges is the answer. There are a few things you could do. Besides fence building, you could let people hunt (person above said the ODFW hazed the animals and they left). This obviously won't work in all situations, but the animals are there year around and it is known that many landowners don't let people hunt. Hunting them will make the area less attractive. Kill does. This will reduce the numbers. Wetwrk2 stated he doesn't want to kill does/fawns. "Who wants a trophy fawn." Sounds to me like you are more interested in getting a trophy than saving your business money. Since it is a trophy you are interested in, put in for a tag like the rest of your fellow Oregonians. After all, the game animals are owned equally by everyone in the state, and you shouldn't get special privileges because your parents happened to live a certain way in a certain place.

[358norma]

I've stayed out of this one so far because I am a strong believer in property owners rights to manage their property however they see fit and it seems like a lot of you just want something to whine about.


BALTZ526, You have been talking a pretty big game so far insinuating that you KNOW what one cutting of alfalfa is worth and exactly how much profit is involved and so forth. Have you ever in your life worked on a ranch and seen first hand how slim the profit margins are? If you think ANYBODY got rich last year growing alfalfa you are a fool. Fertilizer cost went through the roof right along with diesel. All that alfalfa has to go somewhere, want to make a guess at what it cost to ship to the dairies on the coast? And now this year hay and alfalfa prices are expected to be about 65% of what they were last year

What exactly do you do for a living?

Would you be willing to sacrifice a HUGE portion of your income to protect a few deer or would you rather get as many tags as possible and fill them all?

Back to my original feeling, it's private property!!!! It is absolutely none of your business how they choose to run their operation. I firmly believe that if you didn't have those sources of feed available during the critical winter months you would see HUGE die offs. Ever stop to wonder where those big trout creek bucks spend the winter? I'd be willing to bet DRAKE 5 does.

[Rank Amateur]

A classic example of what Baltz is trying to explain is the straw berry fields on the westside. I won't go into details because it will just enrage people, but let's just say it wasn't good for the deer population.

I think Baltz is hitting a point, it you grow an attractive food crop, they will come. It very well may change natural patterns of the wildlife. It may result in more game too, but that would have to be studied to be confirmed, it may just be a bunching of the animals. I would suspect if a population is declining, the best forage place is going to be the last place the population will show the decline.

This is a tough situation, easy to say the farmers/ranchers should fence, probably not so easy to come up with the money to do so. Long term cost/benefit to wildlife is also a difficult question. It sure would be a better world if we all could get along. If we truly understood all the ramifications, it might benefit us all, if us sportsmen shared some of the costs.

[WSU]

I couldn't agree more. It is private property and farmers/ranchers are free to manage it as they please. My point is that if how you choose to manage it costs you money, I don't feel that you should then cry about what the government does (as in, not give you extra tags).

[Wetwrk2]

Originally Posted by BrianMaguire

In a previous post you said your purchased the land, which one is it?

This once again is a fine example of how the general public has zero idea of how a working cattle ranch operates. The amount of tax placed on a ranch to just give it away to the kids would pretty much end any future that a working ranch has. Traditionally the successfull ranches that have survived for more than three generations (the average) did so because it was purchased correctly. Normally the son buys out the father, who bought out the grandfather and so on. I'm surprised this fact isn't known. Like the age old saying goes "nothing in life comes free." A lot of cattlemen I know came back from VietNam or other wars and used their VA loans to "take over" for their parents, as the rates for such a loan makes this purchase easier. You buy into the ranch then eventually over time you can own it. So my reference to purchase, and inherit are completely correct, as in I would be the only one allowed to purchase the ranch kinda making it a inheritance. Maybe a tiny little hobby farm could be inherited much the same as a house or a couple of acres, but even then the taxes are present. So that's "which one it is" in my case. That's why so often folks that inherit a house immediatly sell it. I am extremely blessed. And for the record I pay exactly the same as the rest of the "public" to hunt in my very own yard. What the public fails to understand is I also pay for my own yards taxes, as well as the taxes for public land. So I pay way more than the rest of the general public taking care of this states public wildlife. The opportunity is there for each and everyone of us to own our own land, and own their own ranch. Buy one.-WW
ps..Trophy hunt well if I have a choice of a forked-horn mulie, 3 x 3 mulie, and a 4 x4 with a drop-tine I'm probably going to harvest the drop-tine. If I have a choice of a spike bull, a three point bull, or a ivory tipped drop-tine 6 x 6, I'm probably gonna opt for the drop-tine he-he.. As far as the lops if I have a 19inch buck, a doe and a fawn, i'm going to shoot the buck. I'm just not a doe/fawn hunter sorry he-he. I wont do it so I guess I'm a trophy hunter he-he. Heck last season I even passed on a buck that looked like he had two pencils sticking out of his head!

[Idahoan]

Originally Posted by WSU

I couldn't agree more. It is private property and farmers/ranchers are free to manage it as they please. My point is that if how you choose to manage it costs you money, I don't feel that you should then cry about what the government does (as in, not give you extra tags).

Then don't cry about grazing when rules are being followed.

[baltz526]

Originally Posted by 358norma

I've stayed out of this one so far because I am a strong believer in property owners rights to manage their property however they see fit and it seems like a lot of you just want something to whine about.


BALTZ526, You have been talking a pretty big game so far insinuating that you KNOW what one cutting of alfalfa is worth and exactly how much profit is involved and so forth. Have you ever in your life worked on a ranch and seen first hand how slim the profit margins are? If you think ANYBODY got rich last year growing alfalfa you are a fool. Fertilizer cost went through the roof right along with diesel. All that alfalfa has to go somewhere, want to make a guess at what it cost to ship to the dairies on the coast? And now this year hay and alfalfa prices are expected to be about 65% of what they were last year

What exactly do you do for a living?

Would you be willing to sacrifice a HUGE portion of your income to protect a few deer or would you rather get as many tags as possible and fill them all?

Back to my original feeling, it's private property!!!! It is absolutely none of your business how they choose to run their operation. I firmly believe that if you didn't have those sources of feed available during the critical winter months you would see HUGE die offs. Ever stop to wonder where those big trout creek bucks spend the winter? I'd be willing to bet DRAKE 5 does.

we are some of the dirty low class buisness owners that get to pay pay pay. some people seem to think they know what kinds of profits alfalfa farmers make. i have just heard the inside information on the true profits they do make. anyone can research the tonage per acre these pivots are producing. google is amazing. most agricultural land is of a type nothing can be done to improve it for game animals, except by it's owners. a permanent water source, an uncut field, a reserved pasture set aside for wildlife. a fenced stand of aspen or willow along a creek are things property owners do. if we need to do something to protect our buisnesses we do it, to protect our income. a novel idea it seems to pivot owners

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Originally Posted by WSU

Since it is a trophy you are interested in, put in for a tag like the rest of your fellow Oregonians. After all, the game animals are owned equally by everyone in the state, and you shouldn't get special privileges because your parents happened to live a certain way in a certain place.

Why? He should have the right to hunt his own ground hence why he most likely gets LOP tags.

[WSU]

Originally Posted by willametteriveroutlaw

Why? He should have the right to hunt his own ground hence why he most likely gets LOP tags.

He can hunt his land all he wants. I would if I owned it, and I hunt my parents land often. But, are you saying that because they own land they should get special hunting privileges? Maybe we should be like the old days in Europe when the landed aristocracy gets to hunt and those of us who can't afford 10,000 acres don't. This is basically what you are proposing.

[WSU]

Originally Posted by Idahoan

Then don't cry about grazing when rules are being followed.

I don't recall crying about grazing. However, I don't see grazing and the issue we are discussing as the same issue. They are most definitely distinct and involve different types of concerns (although they share some concerns as well).

[Idahoan]

Originally Posted by WSU

I don't recall crying about grazing. However, I don't see grazing and the issue we are discussing as the same issue. They are most definitely distinct and involve different types of concerns (although they share some concerns as well).

I see this as attacking the ranchers and farmers from multiple angles. Remembering past threads and looking at those responses and then comparing them here. Sorry if this appears as hijack but the root of the issue isn't.

It is clear that a lot folks are automatically biased against large landowners which are ranchers and farmers and blame them for elk and deer population declines, when in fact the farms and ranches have been here during the population cycles. The main difference is in the increase of predators and lack of a predator control and more hunters.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Originally Posted by WSU

He can hunt his land all he wants. I would if I owned it, and I hunt my parents land often. But, are you saying that because they own land they should get special hunting privileges? Maybe we should be like the old days in Europe when the landed aristocracy gets to hunt and those of us who can't afford 10,000 acres don't. This is basically what you are proposing.

I love the european model, its has absoultely zero bearing in this argument, because europe has almost no public land where as a very large portion of the west is public land. LOP tags have been around for quite some time for Landowners in OR. I think your confused, all a LOP tag does is guarantee the landowner, family, friends, or people who purchase the vouchers the opportunity to hunt their privately held lands during controlled hunts, not the whole unit just their lands. I personally like them because they give the land owner a reason to preserve the game on their land.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

Originally Posted by baltz526

some people seem to think they know what kinds of profits alfalfa farmers make. i have just heard the inside information on the true profits they do make. anyone can research the tonage per acre these pivots are producing.

How do they really make, by my calculations (not counting morgtage costs etc) the average is somewhere around 5-600.00 an acre after costs.

[WSU]

Originally Posted by willametteriveroutlaw

I love the european model, its has absoultely zero bearing in this argument, because europe has almost no public land where as a very large portion of the west is public land. LOP tags have been around for quite some time for Landowners in OR. I think your confused, all a LOP tag does is guarantee the landowner, family, friends, or people who purchase the vouchers the opportunity to hunt their privately held lands during controlled hunts, not the whole unit just their lands. I personally like them because they give the land owner a reason to preserve the game on their land.

I don't think I'm confused at all, actually. The difference is that we are talking about tags that take 10 or 12 years to draw. Regardless of the access of a hunter, they can only hunt every 10 or 12 years, whereas the landowner gets to hunt because he owns land. It isn't just access to land at issue, it is an equal right to the opportunity to hunt.