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Old 02-13-2009, 10:05 AM   #1
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Default 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I've been trollinf for Springers since about the time I could walk and I've almost always used 2 4/0 Gami's for trolling for Spiringers. I've always thought I did as well or better than ost as far as getting the bites, but recently I've seen a more and more people switching to 3 hook rigs instead.
In theory 3 should get more than 2, but is it worth the extra snags and if you let the rod load and don't jerk it away does it really make a difference?
I thought I'd ask before I sit down with a couple 100 hook boxes of Gami's and started my mooching rig tying session
JD

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Old 02-13-2009, 10:08 AM   #2
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I use 2 hooks, a third doesn't hurt.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:11 AM   #3
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

How close do you have to put the hooks to get 3 of them into your bait, or is the third strictly a trailer hook?
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I tie mine so the bottom two hooks are fixed, about 2" apart and the top one slides. Works good for me.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:40 AM   #5
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDarr View Post
I've been trollinf for Springers since about the time I could walk and I've almost always used 2 4/0 Gami's for trolling for Spiringers. I've always thought I did as well or better than ost as far as getting the bites, but recently I've seen a more and more people switching to 3 hook rigs instead.
In theory 3 should get more than 2, but is it worth the extra snags and if you let the rod load and don't jerk it away does it really make a difference?
I thought I'd ask before I sit down with a couple 100 hook boxes of Gami's and started my mooching rig tying session
JD
A prominent, highly successful, (and currently VERY agitated) ifish guide, who grew up in your neighborhood, told me he hooks about 15% of his fish on the third hook.

Try it. If you like the way they spin and you get bit, use it.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:42 AM   #6
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

It amazes me how many do indeed come on the 3rd hook....I want to say that my bro hooked almost 1/2 of his on it last year
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:45 AM   #7
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

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It amazes me how many do indeed come on the 3rd hook....I want to say that my bro hooked almost 1/2 of his on it last year
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:00 AM   #8
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

Sometimes I hate learning! Now I need more Hooks, And I can see now the ones I have tied cant just be added to they need redone, Just when I thought I was ready
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:10 AM   #9
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKthumper View Post
A prominent, highly successful, (and currently VERY agitated) ifish guide, who grew up in your neighborhood, told me he hooks about 15% of his fish on the third hook.

Try it. If you like the way they spin and you get bit, use it.
I've watched that guide net more than a few Springers. That's part of the reson I asked. I'm might start screwing with some corkies too, but I have tried that a few times and I'm not convinced.
JD
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:18 AM   #10
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I've been using the 3 hook rigs for about five years now and won't use anything else. I use red hooks and it gives that third trailing hook a bleeding effect. I don't know if the fish care but it looks good to me. You will no doubt catch more fish and I don't think it increased my snags.

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Old 02-13-2009, 12:02 PM   #11
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I went to the third hook rig last year, with the corkie or bead, and never looked back. Had fourteen takedowns on it last year, and landed 13 fish... That's good enough for me. TOC.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:12 PM   #12
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Overfishin Condition View Post
I went to the third hook rig last year, with the corkie or bead, and never looked back. Had fourteen takedowns on it last year, and landed 13 fish... That's good enough for me. TOC.
I've never heard of this corkie/bead set up. Do you have a pic handy of this set up or a description? With that kind of hook up and landing rate, I'd like to try it out myself!
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I'll stick with my two hook rig. Nonsence, in wasting valuable fishing time to show the hook was lodged from the inside out when checked multiple times the same day; on the water, at the dock,at the RV, and again at the gas station.

Presentation is everything.

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Old 02-13-2009, 12:56 PM   #14
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

That's one well rigged herring there Slab.

I always enjoy it when you share that pic.

Staple for me is a set tie two-hook rig with a double leader to the trailer.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:58 PM   #15
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I to went to a 3 hook set up last year and boy did it make a difference as far as getting them in the net I think we only lost 2 all year and those were break offs which was kind off strange.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:32 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I will only run a 3 hook rig for springers, as long as it is legal. I would have to say that over 50% of my fish are only on that back hook. Now that corkie thing, I might have to see about that?
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:43 PM   #17
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I have never had a reason to go from 2 to 3.....Very seldom do I loose a springer
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:07 PM   #18
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

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Originally Posted by Fish Hawk Adventures View Post
I will only run a 3 hook rig for springers, as long as it is legal. I would have to say that over 50% of my fish are only on that back hook.

Good observation, Joe.

I would say that whether you opt for 2 or 3, it's the trailer that will hook the lions share of the fish.

Personally, I use 2 hooks. Trailer has nabbed well over 90% of every salmon ever caught on my boat. In my experience, the front hook is only there to hold the bait.... back hook is there to catch the fish.
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:11 PM   #19
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

BTW those are barbless Mustad hooks.

Look, I supported the leave the wild fish in the water rule. So, it is natural for me to minimize my impact by pinching down the barbs.

No love from the Harvest Management folks at DFW. Pray someday they will get a clue, rather than waiting for the 2012 changes.

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Old 02-13-2009, 02:20 PM   #20
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I run a 2 hook rig, nothing at all wrong with a 3 hook rig.

The most important part is to build your mooching rigs to fit the bait size....you want the trailing hook to be at the very back of the bait (tail) after you have rig your bait.

If you hook spacing is not far enough apart, and the trailing hook is not placed right, and you get a short biter....the fish may not get hooked up.

Also 50% of the time the only hook in my bait is the forward hook, my trailing hook is free. I like the spin I get rigging that way.

Corkies are good......a chrome one on the front of the rig will work....
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Old 02-13-2009, 04:45 PM   #21
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I stand corrected. That prominent guide gets 50% of his fish on the third hook.

Slabhunter-by running your second hook right at the tail you accomplish much the same effect as a third hook. But don't you know if you're not using a plug cut you're in violation of the basic rule of springer fishing?
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Old 02-13-2009, 04:58 PM   #22
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

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Originally Posted by CKthumper View Post
I stand corrected. That prominent guide gets 50% of his fish on the third hook.

Slabhunter-by running your second hook right at the tail you accomplish much the same effect as a third hook. But don't you know if you're not using a plug cut you're in violation of the basic rule of springer fishing?
Tell that to the walhanger I was blessed to land last season.
That's the great thing about fishing. You just never know when it will be your turn to be the hero or zero. Luck favors the prepared.
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Old 02-13-2009, 05:29 PM   #23
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

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Originally Posted by eyeFISH View Post
Good observation, Joe.

I would say that whether you opt for 2 or 3, it's the trailer that will hook the lions share of the fish.

Personally, I use 2 hooks. Trailer has nabbed well over 90% of every salmon ever caught on my boat. In my experience, the front hook is only there to hold the bait.... back hook is there to catch the fish.
I've seen you post this before, but I've had the exact opposite results, with 90% of my fish on the front hook. After your last post about this (2 years ago?) I've really paid attention, Springers, Ocean/Buoy 10 Coho, URB's and Fall Chinook.....90%+ on the front hook. If I can see the hooks at all.....but I really let them eat it, I mean really let them eat it. I swear I get more of a rush watching The Bite, rather than the fight.
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Old 02-13-2009, 05:36 PM   #24
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I also use 3 hooks. I tie the 2 top hooks about 1/2 the length of the herring. The trail hook is about to the tail. I prefer all 3 stationary.
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Old 02-13-2009, 09:12 PM   #25
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I will add my , but I have to admit that I don't fish for springers much. For Fall nooks I use three hooks with the middle one being a treble hook. Most of my fish have the treble in a lip with the trailer hook in the tongue
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Old 02-13-2009, 09:48 PM   #26
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Hawk Adventures View Post
I will only run a 3 hook rig for springers, as long as it is legal. I would have to say that over 50% of my fish are only on that back hook. Now that corkie thing, I might have to see about that?
Hey Joe,
When was the last time you sat in the back of a math class and tied up leaders???

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Old 02-14-2009, 08:09 AM   #27
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

Well, first of all for me to actually catch a spring salmon, I know I have to focus on the extra dumb & extra hungry ones.........they kinda match my own fishing experience...... dumb & hungry. Anyway, honestly, for springers, I usually land a fish that has the green label gagged all the way down;the top hook is pinned in his jaw with the bottom hook playing a back up role down in the throat somewhere. But maybe that is the fish's response to biting a whole bait on a slow roll.

When I fish cut-plug, I make a point of having the trailer about a hook's length behind the flashing bait.....and frequently it is just that dangling trailer that stings mr. springer, just long enough to get him in the boat. But in this case, that may be his short-nipping reaction to a fast moving & flashing bait. But in all cases, I just use a 2 hook mooching rig built with 4/0 Owner needle points.
Besides, tying, untangling and rigging a 3 hook rig for 5 people seems to be an additional pain in the ventril to me.
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Old 02-14-2009, 08:40 AM   #28
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I just use 2 hooks sticky sharp Im like andy let them eat.My fishing buddy just goes nuts when I get bit and just what and what for the right time to grab the stick.Im ready to go
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Old 02-14-2009, 10:34 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOGTIDE View Post
When I fish cut-plug, I make a point of having the trailer about a hook's length behind the flashing bait...........and frequently it is just that dangling trailer that stings mr. springer, just long enough to get him in the boat. But in this case, that may be his short-nipping reaction to a fast moving & flashing bait.
I agree 100%.

I started doing it that way for the very same reason... to up the odds on those short-strikers that want to just nudge up to nip at the herring's tail.

The hookups on those fish definitely improved, but over time there was an even BIGGER benefit to rigging with a long trailer hung way back there.

Easily 4 out of 5 fish are essentially "flossed" by the extra length of leader between the two hooks. In my boat, when a committed aggressive salmon finally chomps down on a herring rigged like that, most of the time it results in a hookup from the outside in. This has cut WAY down on the number of mortal bleeders in my boat.

This is an important consideration when fishing selectively. Mortal hookups are NOT desirable for fish that must be released.

If you are going to be trolling herring over fish that must be released.... ESA-listed springer, unclipped coho, or fall chinook that are no longer legal to keep... consider hanging that trailer WAY back there to minimize the risk of mortal hooking wounds
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Old 02-15-2009, 06:47 AM   #30
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

For Springers I've had my best luck with a 4/0 in the front and a 5/0 trailer. Tie it about an inch and a half longer than your bait after cutting but instead of letting it hang freely run it through the bait and out the other side back close to the tail. If I can find a pic i'll try to figure out how to post it. I'm not sure if it helps the hookup ratio but it gives the tail a little less whip and slows your roll. Good luck homes. RD
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Old 02-15-2009, 07:23 AM   #31
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDarr View Post
I've been trollinf for Springers since about the time I could walk and I've almost always used 2 4/0 Gami's for trolling for Spiringers. I've always thought I did as well or better than ost as far as getting the bites, but recently I've seen a more and more people switching to 3 hook rigs instead.
In theory 3 should get more than 2, but is it worth the extra snags and if you let the rod load and don't jerk it away does it really make a difference?
I thought I'd ask before I sit down with a couple 100 hook boxes of Gami's and started my mooching rig tying session
JD

The underwater videos show that salmon often make a first run at a baitfish and try to disable the tail. The hook that is aft of the bait- whether the second hook tied farther apart or a third hook- is the hook that will often get those fish on the first pass.

I use a two hook rig but let the second hook trail free just behind the tail. I seem to get a tighter roll like that. Last year I caught fish with every combo possible- rear hook only, front and rear, or front only. There was no higher rate of hook up on one or the other.

Part of the reason why some people may report a higher hookup rate on just the rear hook may be the size of bait they run. I'd expect that people spinning a whole herring may catch more on the rear hook as the fish is doing a disabling first pass. I use a smaller cut plug than most of the guys I fish with (I usually take the tail off as well) so maybe the fish that hit my bait have better odds of getting both hooks.

If I was going to space the trailing hook an inch or more aft of the bait, I'd run a three hook rig. I was very satisfied last season with the hookup percentage on the gear I ran- but I think everyone did well last year. There were a couple of guys that fished with me that ran three hook rigs- they didn't do any better or worse than I did (we all caught our one fish apiece).

Definitely do not want to increase mortality on released fish though.

regards, aw
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:43 AM   #32
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

Here's a peek at my 2-hook "hangback" herring rig for "flossing" biters on the troll.

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Old 02-15-2009, 11:57 AM   #33
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Perfecto!
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Old 02-20-2009, 03:17 PM   #34
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeFISH View Post
Here's a peek at my 2-hook "hangback" herring rig for "flossing" biters on the troll.

Do you think you could tie a 3rd hook into that and have it sit right where the line is running along the bait, and still get a nice spin on your bait?
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Old 02-20-2009, 03:21 PM   #35
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

Yes. I use a three hook rig, and that's where the middle hook sits. Still spins real perfect-like. TOC.

Quote:
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Do you think you could tie a 3rd hook into that and have it sit right where the line is running along the bait, and still get a nice spin on your bait?
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Old 02-20-2009, 04:25 PM   #36
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

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Do you think you could tie a 3rd hook into that and have it sit right where the line is running along the bait, and still get a nice spin on your bait?
I think your traling hook is about 2" to far back.
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Old 02-20-2009, 04:38 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Overfishin Condition View Post
Yes. I use a three hook rig, and that's where the middle hook sits. Still spins real perfect-like. TOC.
Thanks. I will have to try that out this year.
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Old 02-20-2009, 04:43 PM   #38
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

Next question...anybody want to share the reasoning for using the bead?
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Old 02-20-2009, 05:35 PM   #39
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I only use two..don't need three with 5/0-6/0. If you are hooking fish and losing them...you might try bigger hooks. Also..all this talk about slider weights being safer when netting fish...seems to me an extra bare hook flying around your fish would not be a good thing. Just my two cents. Something to think about.

Mark

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Old 02-20-2009, 05:46 PM   #40
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Quote:
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Do you think you could tie a 3rd hook into that and have it sit right where the line is running along the bait, and still get a nice spin on your bait?
That would defeat my primary purpose in rigging up this way.... that is, to minimize the incidence of mortal bleeders.

The front hook merely holds the bait... the trailer "flosses" the fish from the outside in. My goal is to hook as many of them from the outside in so that a hook point never finds a vital hooking location inside the fish's mouth (base of tongue, throat, gill arch). Moreover, the outside in hookup makes the hook much more accessible for a quick release with a de-hooker.

http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=100185

I believe the reason I hook so FEW fish with the top hook is that its "bite" is almost totally shielded by the bait. The trailing hook is completely nekkid and fully exposed.... its "bite" is totally unshielded.

Placing a third hook into the side of the bait will result in MANY more mortal hooking wounds. As the fish tries to deeply swallow the bait, any hook placed in that bait will be taken just as deeply. This is exactly what I seek to avoid.

When a fish tries to swallow one of my "hangback" baits, that trailing hook is going to hang up on the outside of the lip, jaw, or maxillary plate. Once the fish turns sideways on the bait, the forward momentum of my boat seals the deal.... fish on.

This is the same principle I use when rigging up to fish eggs for native trout on the Kenai. The key is to NOT bait the hook that is doing all the catching.

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With regard to fishing bait, a feature article will be forthcoming on how to do it responsibly using a method I devised 4 years ago. Note that EVERY trout in this series was caught on fresh eggs rigged with an amputee and a trailer 2-2.5 inches behind the bait.

Same principle as a flyfisherman pegging a bead.... fish takes the bead, ends up with a monofilament Fu Man Chu hanging downriver from each corner of the mouth. Fish shakes his head, unable to shed the line, panics, and turns toward the main flow to flee. The angler feels the resistance as the fish shakes its head and turns, sets the hook, and the trailer pins the fish in the lips from the outside in about 95% of the time.

In this case the fish takes the bait, but the key is that there's no hook in the bait to nail the tongue or gill-rakers. The fish is essentially "flossed" at that point, with the trailer hook penetrating in the classic outside-in fashion that typifies our rampant meat-market salmon flosseries.

End result is that the trout are hooked only if they are willful biters, but mortal hooking wounds are virtually nonexistent.

In two weeks, my girls and I caught and released over 200 trout... not one bleeder in the bunch. NONE! Not saying I've never had a bleeder using this method, but I challenge any flyfisher to top that hooking mortality!
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Old 02-20-2009, 05:50 PM   #41
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

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Next question...anybody want to share the reasoning for using the bead?
I use beads strictly for color-coding my various herring leaders for quick identification.... cut bait vs whole.... long leaders vs short.
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Old 02-20-2009, 06:30 PM   #42
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

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Placing a third hook into the side of the bait will result in MANY more mortal hooking wounds. As the fish tries to deeply swallow the bait, any hook placed in that bait will be taken just as deeply. This is exactly what I seek to avoid.
That's my entire rationale for the exaggerated spacing in my 2-hook rigs.

In contrast, look at these rigs....






It's easy to see how the hooks sticking out the side of these baits can easily be taken deeply as the fish tries to swallow the herring.

And please, this is no diss on Joe or Hans... they have obviously demonstrated some superb herring rigs in these pictures.... very effective hookups would be expected with both these rigs. While I could have used pics from elsewhere, these pics were just readily available examples of how lots of folks rig their baits. In fact I would say the vast majority of folks rig with either a shorter 2-hook rig or a 3-hook "stinger" rig as shown here.

I offer up my style of rigging for comparison as a more fish-friendly alternative whenever I know I will be releasing a significant portion of my catch. Releasing fish is just part of the game.... whether it's on a voluntary basis when you're catching way more than you can keep, or when it's mandated by regs for selective harvest of a target stock (clip-only retention). I just want to know I am giving the fish I release the best chances for survival.
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Old 02-20-2009, 06:47 PM   #43
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Default Re: 2 or 3 Hook MOoching Rig?

I usually use 2 hooks. I dont think you need 3 because I do just fine with 2 and catch fish.

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