"birdy" Lab

[cj6530]

Is "birdyness" a trait seperate from strong huntest/retriever drive in labs. I am mostly an upland hunter and like the birdyness of flushers like spaniels in the field. In short, Do I really need to research birdyness in a breeders dogs if there are proven huntest performers?

[PacificPointer]

IMO ..... No !!!!

Thats why people need to study " drag of the breed " Mr Wehle wrote about it. If you take 2 All Age Pointers, which would be dogs that are the top of the line and breed them you'll be lucky to get 1-2 pups that will perform like the parents. Dogs breed down........

Like stated in the Nat Ch thread, field trialers have little to no time for "good" dogs. Best thing a Pro trialer told me was "dont fall in love with your dog". Look at all the Lab ads in the papers, family dog/good hunter ect. The Lab has suffered the most in the last 20-30 years.

You wont know birdyness out of a pup, you should look at derby age dogs. Forget that bs 49 day rule it, I've spent tens of thousands the last 12 years on Pointers pups from Ch dogs only to give them away. I know and have enough people in my circle where I'm not buying pups anymore, I buy derby dogs so I at least know what I'm getting.

And by proven hunters..... we have 8 species we can hunt yet there chukar fascination on the brain, sure the trek is hard but the shooting lanes are easy, minimal cover ect. IMO mountain quail and Ruffs are way harder to get good dog work on birds. Proven hunter means little when the dogs hunt the easiest birds.

[Hawaiian Time]

From my experience, I find that if I expose my pups early to birds, that they very much develope an attraction to birds. At 5 weeks, I throw a wing clipped pigeon into the puppies pen and observe just how the pups interact with it. At first they just sit across the pen and observe the birds with curious looks on their faces. After about 2 sessions of this, everytime I put a bird into the pen, they absolutely go crazy. So what I think is that if you expose a puppy early to that type of stimulus, they will grab and hold onto that experience and it will carry on later in their developement. If pups are not exposed to birds early, you will find that the older they get, it will become more difficult to get they natural instincts to kick in.

Now, I do believe that bloodlines are the most important factor in getting to what you are in search of. I have seen dogs that did not meet expectations from the type of breeding that it came from but in most cases if you buy from sound hunting pedigrees you give yourself the best opportunity to succeed. Titled parents give you a gage to measure the potential of the puppy. I also feel that someones labeling the litter as coming from "Good Hunters" means nothing unless you have seen the dogs work. Keep in mind that my expectations of a dog is probably a lot higher than the average hunter. Dogs that have not met my performance expectations have gone to hunting homes and they have been the hunters best ever hunting dog.

Please remember in your search that the dog will be a pet most of the time so find a dog that you can also live with at home also. Many hunters want the fireball in the field and expect the dog to be a Mr. Potato Head at home. Be prepared to handle this type of dog. Check for heath clearances of both the sire and damsel but thats another topic. HT

[STRUTTIN-1]

Originally Posted by Hawaiian Time

From my experience, I find that if I expose my pups early to birds, that they very much develope an attraction to birds. At 5 weeks, I throw a wing clipped pigeon into the puppies pen and observe just how the pups interact with it. At first they just sit across the pen and observe the birds with curious looks on their faces. After about 2 sessions of this, everytime I put a bird into the pen, they absolutely go crazy. So what I think is that if you expose a puppy early to that type of stimulus, they will grab and hold onto that experience and it will carry on later in their developement. If pups are not exposed to birds early, you will find that the older they get, it will become more difficult to get they natural instincts to kick in.

Now, I do believe that bloodlines are the most important factor in getting to what you are in search of. I have seen dogs that did not meet expectations from the type of breeding that it came from but in most cases if you buy from sound hunting pedigrees you give yourself the best opportunity to succeed. Titled parents give you a gage to measure the potential of the puppy. I also feel that someones labeling the litter as coming from "Good Hunters" means nothing unless you have seen the dogs work. Keep in mind that my expectations of a dog is probably a lot higher than the average hunter. Dogs that have not met my performance expectations have gone to hunting homes and they have been the hunters best ever hunting dog.

Please remember in your search that the dog will be a pet most of the time so find a dog that you can also live with at home also. Many hunters want the fireball in the field and expect the dog to be a Mr. Potato Head at home. Be prepared to handle this type of dog. Check for heath clearances of both the sire and damsel but thats another topic. HT

Very nicely stated HT .Thoughtful advise worth reading.I firmy believe the age and how a pup is introduced to birds has a very big impact on brining out those hunting Birdie instincts.

[llama77]

I think the birdyness and retrieve desire are the same thing.

And Ill probably recover some of what Hawaiian time said, but...


You are dealing with odds. Pacific pointer wanted to up the odds of getting a good dog.So he gets derby dogs, and likely pays a preminum. If hes looking for a field trial champion he could really up his odds by buying an FC! And really pay the price. Not all derby dogs go on to be Field champions.

While you can get an outstanding dog from a less than outstanding pedigree, your odds of getting the type of dog you want greatly increases
by getting a dog that has a pedigree made up of those dogs that have the traits your looking for you increase te odds of getting what you want.

.It would be interesting to see how many FC dogs have no FC's in their pedigree.

So while not all pups from FC's will make FC themselves. That does not mean that the other pups are culls and worthless (unless your sole goal is an FC dog). In fact very few of the pups will be culls and most will make oustanding dogs for the majority of us. They may just not have that extra thing that could make them an FC.

There was another famous pointer guy named Delmer Smith. He had 3 Brittneys the story goes that were national champs. He selected those pups by picking the parents, closeing his eyes and grabbing a pup out of the litter.

Im not really sure the lab has suffered all that much. You can get just about anything want, different colors, different sizes, different shapes. different speeds etc.... They have a wide gene pool.

And while there are bad labs out there, the vast majority will make fine gundogs with the proper training. Not really sure how they have suffered.

[leadeyedbugger]

I will say from my experiences hunting with different guys that have labs and being around them alot is yes. There is a big difference between say birdyness/hunting ability in the field and Retrieving ability. They are two different things in my mind. I have hunted over a few labs that were great at quartering,locating and flushing game. Basically like a big spaniel out there. But most labs i have seen in the field are only good for marking and retrieving fallen game. Big difference. Nothing wrong with it, but it isn't the same.
Think of it like this. In alot of the chukar posts about different hunting dogs for chukars you see alot of guys saying labs, they then say that the only reason they bring the lab is to retrieve the birds. To me that says that they have a premier retriever but not a good hunter. Now you read posts from guys with good pointers or flushers and they say something along the lines of how well the dog worked into the wind and managed to locate the birds........
Now having said that i am not saying that labs are bad upland dogs or any one breed is better then the other. I am saying that i believe that there is a difference between hunting ability and retrieving ability.

[DogZilla15]

What Leadeyed said..... Retrieving is not hunting.....

A dog that "hunts" game (your typical pointing breed) is bred specifically for that. They use the wind to locate game at great distances, (200+ yards) not a head down search of the ground directly under their nose. They visually recognize cover that holds birds and don't waste time searching ground that typically does not hold game. They travel on the down wind side of cover and do not go through it. If no game is detected, they are off on another search. They are always acutely aware of wind direction and use it to their advantage. They never quarter unless they are hunting a headwind.

[DogZilla15]

Hawaiian:

You talking to me?.....

I don't think I implied a lab couldn't hunt upland birds. There are many who serve that purpose very well.

I think the point that Leadeyed and myself was trying to make was how to distinguish between the different duties a hunting dog must perform that has to do with actual hunting. There are many retrievers that would make great hunting dogs but they are never used as such if we look at retrieving in the correct perspective. Retrieving is nothing more than a form of cooperation. We hope this trait is born in and refined through repetitive training so the dog becomes proficient. Just like a pointing dog is born with the natural instinct to point but we teach steadiness so the dog becomes proficient. Steadiness is cooperation just like retrieving and neither have anything to do with hunting. Look at it this way. Hunting is everything a dog does to locate game. Once the game is pointed or flushed (depending on breed) all subsequent activity a dog does toward the recovery of shot game is cooperation, not hunting.

[Hawaiian Time]

I think we might be off the topic of "birdy Lab"..I think we are getting into the area of what breed is better than the other. Other breeds may do upland better than a lab but the lab still can make a more than adequate upland dog. HT

[Capin' Dan]

VERY ImPORTANT THING THAT HAWAIIN BROUGHT UP IS THAT YOU MUST GET YOUR DOG Around tons of birds like anything the more they do it the better off they will be. Some of the other breed might cover more ground faster point and hold and other traits but the lab is the number one dog in the world for a reason they are versitle that can do it all and usually are a joy to live with as well. Is a lab going to hunt for 10 hours in 99 degree heat not as well as an pointer maybe but the labs can do it all.

Pacific Pointer is way off on his post don't just quote one source you need to do a lot more research. HT good post and well put.

Sorry about the caps too lazy to go back a shrink them words

[FeatherDuster]

Hunting dead is still hunting.

[PacificPointer]

Just let us know what you decide

[cj6530]

Do you guys think that a smart move would be to buy a Lab from a "pointing Lab" breeder that focuses on upland hunting and just not train to hold point? My reason is that all things considered I would be buying from a breeder that does focus on the "birdy" trait.

[llama77]

CJ,

You are getting misinformation from the pointing crowd.

A retriever exposed to upland hunting will hunt the wind just as any pointing breed. They dont just walk around with their nose on the ground or looking to the sky waiting for a bird to be shot. Until the gun goes off they hunt, they are "birdy". The retrieving part only kicks in after the shot. Thats when you get to take advantage of the ret abilities that youve trained for, marked multiple birds, blind retrieves, running down cripples etc.....

If I didnt train my retriever to stay in range, (which is a constant thing I have to watch) while upland hunting they would range way out the reach of my gun!

The vast majority of chukars I shoot my ret has taken me too. She has located chukars at least 150 yards away while standing next to a GWP that didnt smell them.

She winds them, I follow her, when she gets to the limit of my shooting range I stop her and catch up, then we poceed. The whole time her nose is in the air!!

The difference in "birdyness " between a pointing type dog and a ret or flusher, is that the pointers have a stronger gene to stop instead of going in for the flush. Retrievers just have the gene to "go get it". The accual act of returning to you is anticlimactic for the dog, if it wasnt they would run faster back to you then they do going out.

My first trained Golden showed signs of pointing occaisionally. I thought it would be cool to get her to point. (kind of a parlor trick)So I bought Delmer Smiths book and put her on a check cord. Every time she got body scent I stopped her with a the check cord. Or rather I tried to stop her. She just wouldnt quit pulling. After about 30 planted birds with no improvement, I gave up.

I think she was pretty "birdy" I can even argue more birdy than a pointer.

So No I dont think theres a difference between birdyness and "retrieving desire". Those dogs that earn FT and hunt test titles have to have drive or birdyness to earn those titles. In many tests and trials they shoot live flyers after they shoot longer dead marks, sometimes this is a breaking test and sometimes its used to try and erase the dogs memory. They use the dogs "birdyness" against them.

I have hunted with a lot of labs and a few pointers. Ive never seen a lab that didnt or wouldnt make a good upland dog. Ive never seen a pointer that made me say "man I got to get one of those, they are so birdy!!!!"

As to your last question. Get a pointing lab if you want a lab that will point. Dont get it just because you think it will be birdier than any other lab, thats not the case.

And if you want a poinitng breed get one, again dont get it cause you think it will be any bridier than a retriever.

Heres a few pics of "unbirdy" retrievers that just sniff the ground and wait for bumpers to fall out of the air!!





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http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc211/kigersalbum/OWYHEE018.jpg[/IMG]

[Hawaiian Time]

Originally Posted by cj6530

Do you guys think that a smart move would be to buy a Lab from a "pointing Lab" breeder that focuses on upland hunting and just not train to hold point? My reason is that all things considered I would be buying from a breeder that does focus on the "birdy" trait.

Now I am a little confused on just what you want in a dog. Are you trying to find the best dog for upland? If so than you probably need to pick from some of the other breeds. If you want a pointing lab than you should pick from lab bloodlines that specialize in this. For some of us, the retriever aspect of the lab is what we want. I personally do not want my labs pointing. I want them quartering, getting on the scent of the birdy, tracking it if necessary and flushing it. There are labs that point so if it needs to be a lab, then I would look for those breeders. If it doesn't need to be a lab, then I think the pointer owners here should be able to help you. I don't think that birdyness will necessarily get you the pointer you want.

I'm with Llama 77 on this one also..He described exactly how I hunt upland behind my labs. It's the keeping them in gun range that is important. When their tails start the "birdy dance" is when I click the safety off of my shotgun. HT

[cj6530]

Originally Posted by Hawaiian Time

Now I am a little confused on just what you want in a dog. Are you trying to find the best dog for upland? If so than you probably need to pick from some of the other breeds. If you want a pointing lab than you should pick from lab bloodlines that specialize in this. For some of us, the retriever aspect of the lab is what we want. I personally do not want my labs pointing. I want them quartering, getting on the scent of the birdy, tracking it if necessary and flushing it. There are labs that point so if it needs to be a lab, then I would look for those breeders. If it doesn't need to be a lab, then I think the pointer owners here should be able to help you. I don't think that birdyness will necessarily get you the pointer you want.

I'm with Llama 77 on this one also..He described exactly how I hunt upland behind my labs. It's the keeping them in gun range that is important. When their tails start the "birdy dance" is when I click the safety off of my shotgun. HT

Yours and Llama 77's post just described what I want. I guess I may have over complicated the search by "over researching". When I bought my first lab 9 years ago the advice I got was to find the smartest well bred dog from a respected "field" breeder and hunt the daylights out of him. I did that and now have a great upland/duck dog (great by my standards). I think I got off track on my latest search for a new pup because some of the breeders i have talked to recently kinda warned me that some of these fantastic bred trial/hunt test dogs are "boot polishers" in actual hunting. I think I need to just keep things simple and buy a pup from a respected field/trial/hunt test breeder and hunt the daylights out of him.

[rimrock]

"Birdy" in a dog is simply prey drive. Some breeds have a higher prey drive than others generally speaking. High prey drive isn't necessarily a "good" thing or "bad" thing. It can be great for hunting but not so fun at home. A Lab is a good balance, not the highest prey drive by breed, but plenty high enough to be a solid hunting dog.

As for what makes a dog a boot polisher, generally speaking again, it's not breed as much it is human casued by overtraining too much too soon. It's fairly easy to spot a dog with handler fingerprints all over them. IMHO overtraining is the main casue of "boot polish".

[DogZilla15]

I really admire guys like Llama who actually make a hunting dog out of a Labrador. He and his dog(s) are proof it can be done and done very well.

One thing that gets me fired up is when I hear, "I want my dog to stay in gun range." This works fine when there are lots of hunters and lots of dogs to cover the countryside but the lone hunter or a group hunting with a single dog is at a tremendous disadvantage. A dog with this handicap isn't going to find nearly as many birds (I'm assuming we're hunting chukars and huns) as a dog that gets out there. Also a dog that is trained to hunt close or has a natural lack of range is a boot polisher and staying in gun range is the perfect example.

CJ... Your heart seems to be set on a pointing Lab which is fine. This could be because you like the personality (family dog) of a well bred lab and their ability to fetch waterfowl in addition to field work. Most this discussion is based on upland hunting (pointing) and that is why I'm sticking my nose in here. Many of the versatile breeds share a similar personality with the Labrador and make great family dogs and I think it would be worth your while to take a look at them. I know this is very controversial especially with died in the wool Labrador guys but the versatile breeds are superior field dogs in almost every way. It's just a matter of getting used to their style. If you've never hunted with a true pointer it would be wise to give it a try sometime. You will be impressed.

To be fair... I'd probably be impressed by Llama's dog(s)......but I'll stick with my pointers.

[rimrock]

IMHO a pointing Lab is not the best of both worlds, but in fact the lesser of both worlds. If you want a Lab by all means get a Lab for upland, if you want a dog that points by all means get a pointer for upland.

A common misunderstanding in my opinion is the “point” isn’t the main reason why people own pointers. About any dog can be taught to point and hold for the gun, that’s obedience training. Pointing breeds are staunch, stop to flush, steady to shot…and so on, not because they are a pointing dogs per se, but by training. A Lab I am sure could be taught all this as well. The advantage of the pointing breed is the ground they cover for you, that’s the big plus. And for the uplands it really helps when bird populations are low. A Lab will not cover a 300yrd wide path on the hills, that’s a “small” range for a pointer. That’s really it when it comes to upland…the run in the dog. If allot of run isn't a big issue for you, than no reason to get a pointer IMHO.

But a pointing Lab to me is the least of the choices, it still won’t have the run and range…and you may not have the best breeding program that focuses on what has made the Labrador a success for many, many decades as a hunting retriever.

[Lucky Guy]

I don't know about birdiness in lab pups, but the way national competitors breed, select, train and run their FT dogs has about as much relevance to normal hunters as a Formula One team has to a club racer - somewhere between little and none. Find somebody reputable nearby with labs that you like (for all the reasons we like our dogs) and spend some time with them. Sounds like a couple good suggestions above.

By the way, some great pics guys!

[Hawaiian Time]

Well put Rimrock. Labs can do the upland job but not as well as a well bred/trained pointer.

"admire guys like Llama who actually make a hunting dog out of a Labrador" Now that comment is hillarious. HT

[cj6530]

I want to say thanks to the professional breeders on this forum and to the ones I have contacted on the phone. As an industry I have to say you guys go above and beyond on your generosity with your time. I have talked with at least a dozen trainers/breeders this last month and all have talked for upward of a half and hour (longer if i let them) giving me advice. Time is money and I just wanted to say thanks for making this process easier.

[Lucky Guy]

I don't know about birdiness in lab pups, but the way national competitors breed, select, train and run their FT dogs has about as much relevance to normal hunters as a Formula One team has to a club racer - somewhere between little and none. Find somebody reputable nearby with hunting labs that you like (for all the reasons we like our dogs) and spend some time with them. Sounds like a couple good suggestions above.

[DogZilla15]

Hawaiian:

Glad you saw the humor....But I was trying to be serious..... Thing is, most labs use their nose to find their food bowl and butt sniffing and not much more. Getting them out to learn a new trade can pay big dividends and that's the difference between Llama's dogs and the ones that get out once or twice a year. The pointing breeds won't amount to much either if they get out only a couple of times a year. Hunting is what builds hunting dogs. There is no substitute.

Need to clear something up. Pointing is "not" trained. A dog can be taught to whoa in the presence of game and that's it. Pointing is instinctive (genetic) and bred in. Know the difference. I'd rather have a dog I don't need to train.

This is what a dog on point looks like for those who were wondering...

[Hawaiian Time]

Originally Posted by DogZilla15

Hawaiian:

Glad you saw the humor....But I was trying to be serious..... Thing is, most labs use their nose to find their food bowl and butt sniffing and not much more. Getting them out to learn a new trade can pay big dividends and that's the difference between Llama's dogs and the ones that get out once or twice a year. The pointing breeds won't amount to much either if they get out only a couple of times a year. Hunting is what builds hunting dogs. There is no substitute.

Need to clear something up. Pointing is "not" trained. A dog can be taught to whoa in the presence of game and that's it. Pointing is instinctive (genetic) and bred in. Know the difference. I'd rather have a dog I don't need to train.

This is what a dog on point looks like for those who were wondering...

"boot licker, butt sniffers" again you can't serious? You are entitled to your opinion, I guess..but again, it's just your opinion. The guy wants a lab that flushes upland game. Enough said. This is not pointer vs Labs. HT

[leadeyedbugger]

wow...everything has to be us vs them all the time when it comes to dogs......The simple answer to that arguement is that whatever breed i happen to own at the time the question is asked is by far the best upland dog there is .

All i was trying to say is that i believe there is a difference between retrieving skills and "birdyness" which i think he means ability and drive to hunt upland based on his other responses. And i would say YES.......There are labs or other retrieving breeds out there that are great retrievers, great at marking and retreiving ducks/geese/pheasants whatever but are NOT good at actually going into the field and locating the birds themselves, hunting them before they see them. There are other labs that are very good in the field locating the game.....There are labs that do both well.....There are labs that do one but not the other.....

If i wanted a lab with the specific purpose of Hunting upland birds with it i would look for a kennel that breeds dogs specifically for this. Probably a smaller more athletic sized lab with bloodlines of proven upland preformers.

Look at it this way...if its a lab with good retrieving instincts but not good hunting instincts the hunt would go like this.....The dog and i went hunting, i got to the good area and sure enough i got some birds up, dropped 2 and buster marked and retrieved them perfectly, we then headed to the next best looking area.........Nothing wrong with that but the hunter is hunting the birds and the dog is retrieving the birds........What your looking for is this it sounds like.......We started across the crp field, buster was cutting through the wind with me following behind him, letting him lead the way with his nose....suddenly he cut sharply into the wind and his tail started wagging wildly, i switched the safety off knowing that buster was homing in on the bird.........
There is a difference between the 2......But a properly bred upland lab is capable of hunting just fine....

The pointing lab thing is a different discussion totally, if you want a pointing breed dog then get a proper pointer in my mind. If you want to hunt behind a flushing upland lab then great, just find one with good proven hunting bloodlines,

[llama77]

CJ,

The picture of the Golden by herself with the chukars was me and her only. No big line of folks stretched across the hill. It was 2006 and while I expected it to be an easy hunt, whatever did the chukars in that winter had a good start.

I hit three coveys. Got into one covey twice. 3 of the 4 contacts the dog led me to. One was about 100 yards away from us when she smelled them. Never more than a mile from the truck.

We hunt with a big group of guys every year for 4 to 5 days. The average number of birds taken by hunters with a ret is HIGHER than the guys with pointers. Although we have a guy with a nice GSP thats doing very well.

I have hunted a lot by myself over the years. again, I have never seen a reason or absoulute need to have a pointing dog.

Certainly they cover more ground. So why wouldnt they be more efficient? Intuitively you would assume that the dog that covers the most ground wins.

The problem is this. In order for pointing to be effective. The birds have to hold until the gun gets in range. If this happened everytime a covey was found, hands down the pointers would be more efficient. But birds dont always cooperate. They dont always wait for the gun to get there. Sometimes they flush out of range of the dog and hunter, pointer or ret, they get up 100 yards from the dog nobody gets a shot. But when they get up 40 30 or less yards from the dog, I get a shot. The hunter with the pointer watches the birds fly off. Thats why it doesnt really matter how much ground is covered. Both hunters still have to walk within shooting range of the bird correct?

I love dogs and enjoy my friends pointers. They are fun to watch. But I dont like them to hunt in front of me because they tend to bust birds that I would likely get a chance to shoot. Just my experience.

Birds that flush within 50 yards of me and my dog get shot at.

Leadeye, Its not so much which breed is best its accuracy.

Im not saying my Golden is the best upland dog. What I am saying is that she is just as "birdy" as any other dog and does great upland hunting. The pointer folks are the ones that keep trying to tell folks you need a pointer to be efficient in upland hunting. Just not true.

Lucky guy,
While a Field trial for retrievers certainly doesnt mimmick actual hunting conditions. The skills they learn, EVERY one of them has a direct relation to hunting.
My first golden I trained for field trials. She went duck hunting twice in her life. We hunted pheasants and chukars. Back then I had no idea I was doing something that couldnt be done. Killed lots of birds. RETRIEVED lotd of birds

Every skill we trained for in trials I used in upland hunting. Multiple marks,
Blind retrieves, LONG blind retrieves, long blind retrieves in water from the islands in the snake river, handling the dog off a dead bird to put it on the track of a cripple etc....

In fact when folks ask what kind of training do they need for upland hunting the answer is "the same as for waterfowling, plus exposure to upland hunting."

So for my money, the trial folks are doing a pretty good job. Dogs with a ton of drive and intelligence. Trials are competative and if you made the trials look like hunting, then you couldnt pick a winner.

CJ,
While you may find a lab thats like a pointer and doesnt really care to retrieve too much but loves birds. The odds of finding a top bred ret that is crazy about retrieving but not about birds is extremely remote. The two are connected.

Form your original post you want a good flushing dog. Get the best titled field dog you can. With good training, You wont be disapointed.

[Lucky Guy]

Originally Posted by llama77

CJ,

The problem is this. In order for pointing to be effective. The birds have to hold until the gun gets in range. If this happened everytime a covey was found, hands down the pointers would be more efficient. But birds dont always cooperate. They dont always wait for the gun to get there. Sometimes they flush out of range of the dog and hunter, pointer or ret, they get up 100 yards from the dog nobody gets a shot. But when they get up 40 30 or less yards from the dog, I get a shot. The hunter with the pointer watches the birds fly off. Thats why it doesnt really matter how much ground is covered. Both hunters still have to walk within shooting range of the bird correct?

I love dogs and enjoy my friends pointers. They are fun to watch. But I dont like them to hunt in front of me because they tend to bust birds that I would likely get a chance to shoot. Just my experience.

Birds that flush within 50 yards of me and my dog get shot at.

Leadeye, Its not so much which breed is best its accuracy.

Im not saying my Golden is the best upland dog. What I am saying is that she is just as "birdy" as any other dog and does great upland hunting. The pointer folks are the ones that keep trying to tell folks you need a pointer to be efficient in upland hunting. Just not true.

Lucky guy,
While a Field trial for retrievers certainly doesnt mimmick actual hunting conditions. The skills they learn, EVERY one of them has a direct relation to hunting.
My first golden I trained for field trials. She went duck hunting twice in her life. We hunted pheasants and chukars. Back then I had no idea I was doing something that couldnt be done. Killed lots of birds. RETRIEVED lotd of birds

Every skill we trained for in trials I used in upland hunting. Multiple marks,
Blind retrieves, LONG blind retrieves, long blind retrieves in water from the islands in the snake river, handling the dog off a dead bird to put it on the track of a cripple etc....

In fact when folks ask what kind of training do they need for upland hunting the answer is "the same as for waterfowling, plus exposure to upland hunting."

So for my money, the trial folks are doing a pretty good job. Dogs with a ton of drive and intelligence. Trials are competative and if you made the trials look like hunting, then you couldnt pick a winner.

I don't get into the pointer vs flusher arguments. They're all great dogs and I love em all. I've said before if I could afford it I'd have at least one of every type.

With chukar if birds are busting wild it doesn't matter what dog you use, they're busting 100 yds ahead of either type of dog and it doesn't matter if the dog is 40 yds out or 400 yds out. If the pointer isn't holding and spooks the birds that's a training issue. My two year old setter is a decent dog but not a champion and he'll hold steady for 15 minutes easy, never tried him longer than that. I can cover 400 - 500 yds in any terrain in that time so it's good enough for me - and most hunters.

We don't disagree on club trials, etc. I was talking more about the national level guys that sift through 50 dogs a year to find one or two, have a professional trainer on staff, then hire a handler on horseback to run the dog for them, etc. I've seen that in horses, racers, and it's the same in dogs. It's ok I guess if that's what you like, it's just not the way most of us hunt or train or pick dogs and it doesn't help CJ or most of the rest of us figure out how to locate and pick a hunting dog.

BTW, saw an interesting golden the other day - coal black. Beautiful dog.

[elkhuntr28]

Well I'll through my two cents out there also.

Over the years, I have owned Yellow Labs, Black Labs, a Brittany, Red Healers, and my current fuzzy faced pound mutt that nearest anyone can tell is a cross between a GWHP and a Border Collie who is as birdy as most any dog I have been around and as good of a retriever as many labs I have been around. When I think back of all the dogs I have owned, the ONE SINGLE THING that made one better than the next was TIME IN THE FIELD. As with most people, during different times in my life I have been able to spend more time in the field some years than others. I have friends that have cow dogs that are unreal upland bird dogs, but they live in Eastern, OR and spend 60+ days a year in the field. In my opinion, any dog, regardless of breed, can only be as good of a hunter as it's master.


Nate

[llama77]

Lucky guy,

If the chukars hold for 15 minutes thats when pointers excell.
The problem again is that chukars ( or pheasants or any game bird) dont always cooperate. nothing to do with the dog, they flush when they feel thats the best escape option.

We often have the dogs flush the chukars at close range and often chukars will try and let us walk by. So basically they were "pinned" by a non stationary hunter and dog. There are times when they get flushed when the dog gets near. Doesnt matter what kind of dog. They dont know the difference. So when the pointer is out of gun range and flushed the chukars when they are 40 yards from him (through no fault of the dog) you cant shoot at them. Many times those same birds are birds that I would be able to walk up on and shoot.
Look at the pictures, All those birds had to be within 50 yards or so, we diidnt need pointers to get that close, we just needed the birds to choose staying put as their escape option. Which thankfully they do.

Thats why ground covered is NOT all important. While the pointing dog may find more birds throughout a day, birds that you dont get to shoot at dont really count do they?

While you may have been referring to pointer trials, I was referring to ret trials. Since CJ is looking for information on labs, thats a liitle more appropriate.
Since he is loking for a very "birdy" dog, the dogs with the FC titles and Hunt Test titles are a very good indicator of where to start.

While you may not like the format, I think those folks that invest the time and money and "sift " through dogs deserve some thanks. For the most part those are the dogs that we can have access to through buying their pups. We get a better product due to their devotion of time and money.

And lastly while there may be Black Goldens that Im not aware of , most likely what you saw was a "Flat Coated Retriever". One of the ret breeds thats eligible to run AKC Trials and Tests,

Those include Labs, Chessies, Goldens, Flat coats, Curly Coats, Irish water Spaniels and I dont know if the Nova Scotia Duck tollers have been added to the list or not and seems like I might be missing another one but it escapes me right now.

Elk hunter,
When you say your dog is as good as a retriever as many labs, the term Retrieve needs to be defined.

1) Is your definition finding a shot bird and standing over it umtil you get there?

2)Is it finding a shot bird, picking it up and bringing it within 20 yards of you?

3)Is it finding a shot bird and picking it up and delievering it to hand?
(delievering to hand defined as holding the bird firmly without rendering it unfit for consumption.)

4)Is it finding one of two or more shot birds bringing it back, sitting at heel prepared to go get number two, then delievering bird 1 to hand and being relased to go get bird number two ( or more) which it also delievers to hand.?

5)Is it shooting a bird that the dog does not see fall and being able to send that dog with a minimum of commands to the area where the bird fell, have the dog pick up the bird and return to heel and deliever to hand.
In combination with 3 and 4 above?

These are just a few. There are MANY combinations of 3,4,and 5.

If your dog is capable of retrieving to standards 3,4,5, Great! your dog certainly is retrieving better than many labs and whole potful of pointing dogs.

1 and 2 isnt really retrieving at all in my book.


This is not about which breed is better. Im just explaining the myth that ret or flushers cant be excellent upland dogs.

[elkhuntr28]

My dog best fits your description #3 which in my opinion is pretty good for an actual hunting dog. She does her job, I do my job and we rarely loose a bird.

The point of my post was to not be soly focused on a breed, many breeds can be outstanding bird dogs if they see a lot of time in the field. The labs are great all around dogs because as well as being outstanding hunters, they are such great pets at home. Labs darned shedding hair is their biggest downfall in my opinion, and the primary reason why I no longer have one. Many of the pointers I have been around are pretty high strung and not as suitable for being around small children, but I have also seen plenty of labs that fit that description as well.

The pheasant wing and fishing pole game can go a long ways to making any dog desire chasing and hunting birds, from there it is up to the trainer / owner to refine those skills.

[llama77]

Elkhunter,
I know you werent trying to solely focus on any breed. But when you make a comparison of retrieving abilty to a specific breed, well you just narrowed the focus. A better statement would have been "my dog retrieves better than many dogs of other breeds". In which case I would still have asked for a definition because as you can see there are many levels of "retrieve".

Thats why I asked for a defintion of "retrieve". There are many ret that dont retrieve to level 3. And many of other breeds that dont also.
Getting to level three is more of a training issue as a inherited trait no matter what the breed.

But anyway good for you! Because your dog is ahead of many other dogs in this department!

[elkhuntr28]

Here is a picture of my last lab after a few hours in the Chukar hills.

[rimrock]

I like this Elkhunter...he takes his GWP duck hunting and his Labrador chukar hunting.

[elkhuntr28]

That's what it is all about. Days in the field with your favorite hunting companion. One thing about it, when that yellow lab started getting birdy you better be on your toes, because something was about to happen!!! I sure miss that guy!!! Neither one of those dogs are field champion quality or whatever the trial guys call them, but we seem to be able to get the job done when it counts.