Story of the boat that wasn't meant to be

[Mark Mc]

As I mentioned in a previous post, I was up in Juneau this past week working on a boat deal. I ended up backing out of it, so here's the story.

I had been looking for quite a long time for just the right (next) boat, that would fit in my budget. 28 - 34 ft, a little speed (like 16 - 18 knots), a very reliable diesel (not some tired out thing), straight shaft, a good sea boat, set up to pack a little load (like 4/5 people and 1500 lbs of fish & ice). There are other things on the list, but those were the main things.

So finally I come across this 1975 28 ft Tollycraft Sportfisher, with a 300 hp John Deere 6076 turbo diesel, straight shaft off a twin disc V drive, with a trolling valve no less (I love trolling valves). The engine is a 1996 with 1300 hours on it. It also has a lot of cool gear, like an engine-driven hydraulic system, single-spool hyd. gurdies, aluminum poles & rigging, decent electronics, pilot, etc. The spec sheet says it will do 23/24 knots wide open, and cruise at 18 knots at 6/7 gallons per hour (take note of this part for later).

Here are some pics of the boat & engine:







I went back & forth with the broker for quite a while, asking questions, getting info, etc. At the same time I was doing a bunch of research on this hull & this engine, and things like barge costs, surveyors & mechanics in Juneau.

So I go through the normal offer / counter offer haggling, we agree to a price, I send a deposit, and I'm off to Juneau.

I arrive on Tues. pm, spend some time going through the boat at the dock. Before sharing any findings, I should tell you that I have this philosophy about "boat issues". There are two categories I put issues in. One is the bucket of irritating to moderate things that, each one on its own is not a deal breaker. But if this bucket gets too full of issues, then it becomes a "project" boat and that entire bucket becomes the deal breaker. The other category is, a single thing that is so severe, that issue alone is a deal breaker. I had hoped that with a near-new engine, there wouldn't be any major issues with it. The most likely "severe" issue I was concerned with was stringer rot. If that happened, it was bye-bye right now.
Back to the first impressions.

I expected leaky windows, and sure enough there was condensation & a few window drips. The inside of the seat boxes had mildew; the charts were soaked & ruined. The inside smelled like the old wood boats I fished on in the 70's, the smell that makes anyone except the hardiest salty dogs puke. But hey just some elbow grease re-sealing the windows, bleach out and completely dry out the inside, replace damaged fabrics, and it'll be OK. Then the wiring. There was a wide variety of vintages of electronics & other components. Nothing on the buss panel was labeled. Some connectors looked good (new marine type). Others looked corroded and weak. It was quite a rat's nest; hardly anything was easily traceable. Once again I thought, "OK so it needs a complete wiring clean-up, and partial re-wire. That's do-able." It still had the stock rail tubing, which is the modular stuff with set screws. Much of the aft rails were flimsy, and the forward rails were so flimsy that it wasn't safe for anyone to be up there unless at the dock. I thought "OK....re-fasten, tighten everything up, get by for a season, and put welded rails on later" ($ ka-ching). I poke around the engine room. The installation looks real nice, with all this custom iron and stainless work. Oops...the forward, port side engine mount is cracked. Oh well, just another little ka-ching. I pull the dipstick. The oil is black as can be. Sigh. Although there were other minor issues, the boat still looked good.

Next steps: first sea trial on Wed. with mechanic; then Thurs. am with surveyor, in water again, then lift out on hoist in pm for bottom / running gear inspection.

Wed. am the mechanic starts checking out the engine. I show him the oil. He asks the broker "How long since last oil change?" "50 hours" (huh?) I brought along a test kit for the coolant. This engine has wet liners (which are desireable because it makes the engine more rebuildable) so you MUST use the right coolant, and periodically add an additive (same as Volvo & some others). We check the coolant...oil film on top, and oil sludge inside. Not good. We use the test strips.. they indicate the level of a molybdenum compounds, and a silicate...both are out of spec (low). Oh, did I tell you that there were no maintenance records to be found? This engine cost around 30K to install by the way.


We head out for the first ride. Engine starts right up, very nicely. Sounds great. Almost sexy. While the broker runs it out the harbor, I ask the mechanic what happens when the coolant additives get low. He says the coolant starts to remove metals from the liners, causing pitting. He says he's seen engines fail prematurely because of this.

Cruise on out...push up the throttles, get on a plane...12 knots, 13, 14, 14.5 knots at 2350 rpm. What the..? What happened to this 23 knot boat? We couldn't squeeze any more rpm's out of it, and it didn't hit 15 knots. The normal spec for this engine is 2400 when wheeled just right, or 2500 when slightly under-wheeled, which is preferable. The temp would only get up to 155, the oil pressure was way too high (115) and the pyrometer was too low (350). Sure it fealt fine cruising at 14 knots, but the spec sheet said something a lot different. We all talk about it.
OK the bottom had some growth. Clean it off & get MAYBE 2 more knots. That still doesn't add up though. Maybe the Mathers micro controls need to be calibrated? Maybe the governor needs adjusting? Maybe it's under-wheeled? Maybe monkeys will fly out of my b**t?

We do the usual turns..the boat is heavy & keeps stable / rights itself nicely, even with the poles / rigging way up there. I dink with the electronics...the radar works nicely, but the pilot is screwed up & we can't figure out where the power switch is nor the fuse for it, because nothing is labeled.

We get back...I talk to the mechanic some more..and we call it a day. I go for a long walk in town..buy gifts for the family, crossing the street to avoid the drunks in front of a working-class bar. When I finally sat down I went over the whole list. I called the surveyor up & told him about the bigger issues. He knows the mechanic, and says I can believe what that guy tells me. After some soul searching I realize that this this is just too much of a pig-in-a-poke....I would have to buy the boat, then do all these things in the HOPE of getting it up to 18 0r 20 knots, and HOPE that the liners won't fail prematurely...and HOPE that my wife doesn't kick me out for getting more of a project boat than a turn-key boat. So I decide to bail on it before wasting anymore time & money, and chock this up to another learning experience.

Among the learnings...before I ever travel long-distance to see a boat again, I will insist on:
- getting copies of maintenance records
- getting validation that the boat goes as fast as advertized (and any other important claims)
- Go ahead and pay a surveyor to look at it ahead of time, to validate these things & other key issues like wiring & condition of oil & coolant.

BTW, overall the broker treated me very well. I leave it up to each of you to decide how much of the specs (provided by the owner) a broker should validate.

Some "parting shots" taken from the plane:

Over Victoria, looking at the Canadian Gulf Islands to the east:




Seconds before landing at Juneau:



Thank you to Black Magic, Marty, and Andiamo Phil for moral support!

[ 03-05-2004, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Mark Mc ]

[Nofish]

Mark, The summary of your Alaskan adventure was as usual, well written and very interesting. Bummer about the outcome however - I have used the "monkeys" phrase a few times myself. Bob

[Birdnest]

Sorry to hear the boat wasn't what you thought, but it's gotta be nice to be smart enough to figure that out before you bought it.

Joe

[black magic]

Mark,
Thanks for the well written report. Sorry for what must be a large dissappointment.
Maybe you should just throw all of that serious and expensive scrutiny out the window and look for a nice boat on eBay.

[skein]

Good report, Mark. There were a lot of lessons in there for buyers of ANY boats, old or new. As I read it I kept thinking, "I need to do that with my own ride." Good stuff.

Sorry for the disappointment, but, hey, how else would you have experienced Juneau? And as Keta says, maybe next time you'll find a boat in Sitka. :shocked:

Good luck. I suspect there's a boat out there waiting for you, and you won't have to try to teach those monkeys to fly.

Skein

[Orca]

Looked good from a distance!. Hope you find another that has been taken care of.

[Fishmstr]

Mark,

Bummer Dude. Good luck on finding the perfect boat.
steve

[Reelentless]

Sorry the boat deal didn't work out. I know the feeling. I traveled up and down the entire west coast before I finally found a boat that was priced within my budget without too many warts.

Your boat is out there somewhere.

Thanks for the great read. I enjoyed it!

[Sensei-san]

Mark,

Sounds like Alaska boats are like the saying about Alaska's male populus...

There are lots of goods but the goods might be strange.

Too bad the boat wasn't all that it was advertised to be. A lot of boats that made it to Alaska often wind up like the one you looked at. The boat version of Johnny Cash's homemade Cadillac.

[Mark Mc]

Thanks y'all....One thing I may not have been clear about - the main reason I was interested in this boat so far away, was because of the engine. You know, someone else took the $30K hit. It's hard to believe that someone would spend that much money on a great engine, and neglect it so badly. Once this became obvious, the deal wasn't so "special" anymore.

[Beer Waggin]

Mark-
Sorry the deal fell through. Everything looks good on paper!
Tell me more about this "test kit for the coolant."
Is this something that works for gas motors as well? Just curious as I'm about to do as you have just done, except I'm heading East instead of North.

[TWB]

Mark, thanks for the insite, we new that buying one of these bargan boats up there, wouldn't be easy. For a 1975, it sure looks good in the pictures.

Still trying to figure that speed thing, I guess that 300hp just isn't enough to push that hull past 15kts. Trying to remember, the last charter boat I ran was 40', heavy semi displacement, Cat diesel, and would hit 18kts easy, must have been a lot of HP in that engine. :whazzup:

I still hope to pursue this same thing some day. Great shots from the air also.

Sure sorry it didn't work out for you. :depressed:

Jerry

[Mello-Yello]

Nothing but respect goes out to you Mark. You set your standards and stuck with them. Not an easy thing to do once you start the ball rolling. It's too bad it didn't work out but in time, I think you'll feel good about it, especially when you find the boat that makes background music when you first see it.

If you don't mind my asking, what was the asking price and how much were you able to squeeze it down?

I could keep an eye on things down here in the Charleston area if you want. Just let me know what price range your looking in.

M-Y

[BUGLEMAN]

Thanks for the report. I learned lots.

[Salty Walty]

Good report Mark and good example of how to evaluate a potential boat. Sorry it didn't work out.

[Mark Mc]

Mello, check your e-mail.

Thanks for the kind words guys...I'm glad to be able to share some things I learned. It would be easy to be bitter about spending the time & money to go so far, only to back out. But the thing that makes it feel OK is (1) looking at it as one more lesson in life, and (2) knowing that I could share some of this so that someone else might save himself the same hassle.

One more thing I didn't mention...my wife said she was "proud of me" for being able to walk away from it... somehow she is now more interested in this whole big-boat plan than before. Funny how that works (hehehe).

[Mark Mc]

Dave, I'm not sure how many different engine manufacturer's have strict requirements for the coolant. My guess is that it's not as critical with most gas engines. What I do know is that diesels with wet liners such as late model John Deeres, most of the heavy duty Volvos, and certain Cats and Cummins, are very particular about the coolant. I think the way it works is: the coolant runs against liners. The coolant has metallic additives it (molybdenum and silicates), and these are pulled out of solution at the surface of the liner. The concentration of these additives gets gradually lower over time. If the concentration gets too low (out of spec), metal will now get pulled out of the liners. This can happen just sitting at the dock, but especially while running, because the hot liner causes minute bubbling or "explosions" at the coolant / liner interface. This causes a pitting of the liner. All the major diesel manufacturers will have a test kit, that is nothing more than a paper strip with several colors bars (like ph paper). You dip the test strip into the coolant, and compare the color of each bar to the color coding, and it tells you the concentration of the metals, which correlatres to how much additive to add. I got the kit at the local John Deere farm supply place for less than $4.

I just did a search and found this description from John Deere:
web page


Here's a picture of the test kit, showing the chart you check the result against:


BTW my description of the "bubbling" may not be technically correct....maybe a real diesel mechanic can chime in on this one. - Mark

[ 03-06-2004, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Mark Mc ]

[Chaps]

Yes, very nice report. I went as far as Sitka once to see a boat that I was sure would fit my needs but it was another case of used hard, not maintained, etc. On the liner issue, it is a cavitation problem and actually shows up on cast cylinders too, a case in point are the 7.3 Fords, if any of you guys have one of these engines be sure your coolant checks out OK, Ford has the additive at the parts counters.

[Silver Eagle]

Mark great story but why hasn't anyone ask or did I miss it, What was the price???? Did you check the stringers or is that up to the surveyor??? Nice Job on checking it out...you'll get the right one with that kind of dedication....Ray

[northriver1]

Dr. Mark - Was the flight a long one home for you? Next time around you will find the boat of your dreams. Well, maybe not your dreams but one that will work and not brake the BANK. Great story. Look forward to a cold one when the weather allows for a patio burger and coke.

[HOGGEMIN]

Hope things work out for you on your next boat inspection.

[Pilar]

MarkMc, all I can say is Wow! There's lots to learn and remember in your tale.

Nice looking boat but you were smart enough to see past that. My Dad told me once something I have never forgotten ...

"Everybody that sells a boat is happy to get rid of it .. the reason is a secret that they will not share with the buyer."

I hope to have the same measured approach and self discipline as you when I take the plunge.

As far as the coolant goes I might be able to explain the boiling/pitting problem. We learned how to boil water at NPS and more importantly how not to boil it. A nuclear reactor relies on efficient removal of heat to function safely. Boiling in a reactor core causes localized heating which can damage the core and weaken it. Most reactors have a very pure coolant (water) pressurized to a very high pressure. This makes boiling impossible for the most part. The bubbles of steam that form during nucleate boiling partially insulate the surface being cooled and also cavitate the heat transfer surface. Like little explosions they rip off some of the metal as they collapse. Defects once formed in the smooth surface become the focus point for more localized boiling. These quickly become pits as the erosion continues.

High pressure (> 15PSIG) is not an option on diesel engines and other devices that are not on the Nuke power plant budget. So other means are used to affect surface tension of the coolant and the boiling point. The effects of the steam bubbles are the same however. Coolant additives like Glycol raise the boiling point of the coolant. Adding molybdenum and other things lowers the surface tension and makes the tiny steam bubbles hard to form.

Good luck on your quest and I hope you continue to teach us the mysteries of finding the 'right boat'.

[ 03-08-2004, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Pilar ]

[Sensei-san]

As usual, Pilar is a font of knowledge. A diesel mechanic friend of mine insists that no self repecting internal combustion engine owner would be caught dead without adding a cooling additive. He swears by NALCOOL. NAPA also sells a coolant additive that is identical for much cheaper. Antifreeze is not enough to prevent what Mark and Pilar are talking about. But also using the correct antifreeze is important. The newer antifreezes are formulated for dissimilar metals engines. Yanmars and Volvos are prone to dissimilar metals corrosion if you use the wrong antifreeze.

[OceanBlue]

Mark, as usual, I am in awe at your thorough research. Thanks for sharing the experience so that we can all learn from it.

I'm so sorry it didn't work out. Keep searching, though. Your dream boat is out there somewhere... the RIGHT one.

[Miss B Haven]

Sorry to here it didn't work out Mark, but at least you had an excuse to go North!

You may know this, but Diesels turn oil black in nothing flat, doesn't necessarily mean anything is wrong or neglected.

Also - the "bubbling" against the sleeves is cavitation, just like on a prop. Pretty amazing that the forces from an air bubble can eat steel, bronze, Nibral or whatever huh?

Lot's of boats out there- you'll find "Miss Right" sooner or later. Shopping is part of the fun. :grin:

Oh ya- and my Cats do require coolant additive. I'm using etended life with the additive. Time to check it again!

[ 03-08-2004, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Miss B Haven ]

[Mark Mc]

G'mornin'Sensei-Jen-John

John, thanks for the explanation of the cavitation...definitely a molecular thang going on. Your Dad is right on....I think another way of saying the same thing is "if something seems too good to be true, it is."

Jen... in awe? Awwww... I don't know that I deserve that, but thanks. The boat business, like so many others, is a never-ending lifelong learning. This internet-thing sure has helped for learning the last few years, and i-fish is no exception. Marty just told me of an electronics problem that neither Furuno nor Garmin could fix, yet a complete stranger on a fishing chat board gave him the answer that worked.

Mel...yea I hear you about the oil. It seems certain engines (like Detroits) turn the oil black before you even pour it in!! With my optomism I had hoped that such a modern, low-hour engine would have cleaner oil so soon after the "alleged" oil change.

On the cavitation thing... I've been hanging around the scientists too much at our little electronics company, because they use different words to describe the same thing. "Cavitation" is much easier to say.

[ 03-08-2004, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: Mark Mc ]

[Magoo]

Mark, really intresting read and lots of good information. Thanks for shareing! With attention to detail like that you will be sure to fing the right one....

Magoo

[backlash442]

Mark have you checked down in Cal. yet?

[Sensei-san]

Dr. Mark....

Oh you know cavitation by its other phenomena. Like what happens in the nuker when you put a bowl of soup in without punching holes in the plastic wrap...