Canned, Guided and DIY...

[in 'em]

For those who have time to read and write...

The thread (link below) about the dude who spent $127k on a supposed canned elk hunt got me thinking...and the post I've quoted in bold below prompted me to start this thread...

http://www.ifish.net/board/showthrea...52#post2400352

"Really an impressive elk! not so much of an impressive hunter though. "Canned" hunts are a disgrace to most hunters...

A guided hunt regardless of whether it be on private or public land will never be as impressive as a public land DIY hunt. I'm always going to be more impressed with the guy who worked the hardest..."

I couldn't agree more with the fact that those who work the hardest are those whom most will be more impressed with...myself included...but there's a flip side to every coin and working the hardest doesn't neccesarily mean DIY.

Many Do It Yourself hunts are just that and more...backpacking in, spotting game, stalking it, making the shot, packing the animal out, spending nights under the stars, no roads, etc etc...and many "DIY" hunts aren't hard work at all. Many proclaimed "DIY" hunters drive roads and glass from the truck, shoot from the road or not far off of it, drive atv's, hunt private lands whether it be timber company (which to me is considered "publically accessable land" if it's open) or your parents property (some sit near Uncle Ed's apple orchard and shoot the deer that come night after night), even scout year round and know the animals in their hunting spot just as good as many guides, etc etc etc...which is all legal.

There are also guided hunts that take you into the back country wilderness where the going is tough and you have to work VERY hard...and then there are those that take you into "the back 40" where they've watched the elk all year and your odds are great and the work isn't all too tough.

Canned hunts...yep, I'm gonna try to tackle this one...and while I'll never pay to go on one and many ARE a disgrace, I DO think there are high fenced hunts that are justified and can offer the same exhileration for certain people as a public land hunt...all the while suporting our passion for the outdoors. They aren't for everyone, and certainly aren't 100% fair chase, many are ridiculous and in my mind wrong, but some are not. My uncle shot a high fenced bull last year that scored 380...you know why? He lives in AK where there are very few elk and his best opportunity, and lowest cost (yes, cheaper than coming to the states), was to hunt with this operation. It took him 3 days to finally stalk the bull to within 50 yards for a shot with his pistol. The bull had winded them several times and blown the hunt, and it was much like hunting public land. Of course there's a higher confidence and no pressure, etc, etc, but what were his more cost effective options? Spend a couple thousand to fly down to Oregon, buy a tag and license, not hire a guide and tromp through our woods trying to find a Roosey on his own? We have enough trouble and we live here year round.

All this to say...no matter what the hunt is labeled, unless we know the story, who knows who worked harder to kill their quarry. I've killed a handful of deer, and elk for that matter, that were pretty darn easy and I'm sure most all of you have too.

Consider these questions...

Traditional or compound?

Muzzleloader or rifle?

On foot or on an ATV?

Driving to your spot or hiking in?

DIY or Guided?

How many of you would want a guide if you drew the Wenaha tag this year and had never hunted over there before?

To each his own...I for one prefer traditional bows for fun on the 3-D range, compound bows to kill things (without sights and shooting fingers though, I don't like worrying about bumping my sights or hitting the trigger early), rifle for deer hunting, muzzleloader for when I draw the Juniper tag , can't stand atv's in the woods, I love and prefer hiking to roadless country, and love doing it myself or with family and friends although I would definately use a guide if I could afford it if I drew the Weneha elk tag!

But you know what? No matter what you choose or how you hunt, if you do it legally, we are all one group who's gonna need to stick together or we'll lose the rights to hunt all together. Pass it on to the next generation...

Although the guy who kills his trophy with a stick and string on BLM or National Forest wearing moccasins will always be most impressive!

[BuxnDux82]

Very well put, though I will admit I use quads for hunting when I rifle hunt Mulies. Though I stay on the marked atv trails and then walk from there when I see something promising. As far as a Wenaha tag, if I drew it I would scout and scout but probably end up getting some help from someone who knows the area like no other. I prefer DIY hunts over a guided hunt but sometimes you can't pass up a opportunity when one is handed too you.

[Quaka Wacka]

That about covers it. Hunting is definatly different things to different people.

For some sucess is meausured by a mounted trophy on the wall to show to friends, others an old peanut can in the garage full of 'ivory' and mushroomed bullets, others measure thier sucess by old tags stapled to the wall.

I've had my fare share of back breaking hard earned animals, as well as ones that seemed too easy. As long as its legal and done humanely.

[Linejerk]

Here we go again don't we talk about the canned hunt, ATV, guided hunt, thing about every 6 months, just do a search I think we have found that some are for it and some are not, if you want to know what I and most every one else on here thinks about this just check the thread/threads from the last time we talked about it or the time before that or the time before that sorry I am done, rant over, for those of you that are new to the site, have at it.

[Blowing Smoke]

I'll take my beer CANNED, do my hunting DYI, And let the good LORD GUIDE me thru the rest of it.............BS

[JerryM]

Canned hunts are just harvesting meat. They are not hunting in any form. I've had a hard time getting close to cattle before too but that doesn't make them wild or crafty. I am of the opinion it should be unlawful to sell a hunt of a publicly owned animal. Even on your own land.

No issue with guides. If you want to pay the money, go for it.

If someone wants to put up a high fence and raise massive white tail, fallow deer or whatever else, then by all means they should. But this should not be called hunting and the animal certainly shouldn't be eligible for any record books.

Canned hunts are just killing your own farm raised meat. Again, no issue with this but it isn't hunting.

[duckhunter]

To me there is alot of difference between a canned hunt and a guided hunt.Canned hunts or high fence hunts no way. Guided hunts as long as you follow the laws no problem. You folks that see diy only hunts may be just a little bit narrow minded.

[DF40]

Originally Posted by JerryM

Canned hunts are just harvesting meat. They are not hunting in any form. I've had a hard time getting close to cattle before too but that doesn't make them wild or crafty. I am of the opinion it should be unlawful to sell a hunt of a publicly owned animal. Even on your own land.

No issue with guides. If you want to pay the money, go for it.

If someone wants to put up a high fence and raise massive white tail, fallow deer or whatever else, then by all means they should. But this should not be called hunting and the animal certainly shouldn't be eligible for any record books.

Canned hunts are just killing your own farm raised meat. Again, no issue with this but it isn't hunting.

Well put!

[Pink Salmon]

Originally Posted by JerryM

Canned hunts are just harvesting meat. They are not hunting in any form. I've had a hard time getting close to cattle before too but that doesn't make them wild or crafty. I am of the opinion it should be unlawful to sell a hunt of a publicly owned animal. Even on your own land.

No issue with guides. If you want to pay the money, go for it.

If someone wants to put up a high fence and raise massive white tail, fallow deer or whatever else, then by all means they should. But this should not be called hunting and the animal certainly shouldn't be eligible for any record books.

Canned hunts are just killing your own farm raised meat. Again, no issue with this but it isn't hunting.

WELL PUT.

[in 'em]

Originally Posted by in 'em

...while I'll never pay to go on one and many ARE a disgrace, I DO think there are high fenced hunts that are justified and can offer the same exhileration for certain people as a public land hunt...They aren't for everyone, and certainly aren't 100% fair chase, many are ridiculous and in my mind wrong, but some are not.

Don't miss the point...I never said hunting behind a fence was fair chase or even comparable to a DIY hunt...I only said for certain people it can offer the same excitement we get while on public land. We all share the same passion, we just have different ways we pursue it and view it.

[nobrownline]

This is the reason we are loosing our rights. Just because its not the way we choose to hunt we condemn it. Bow hunters hate rifle guys and everyone hates muzzleloaders. always the same @*$%. I never hear anyone complain about Starkey exp Forrest hunt and that is high fence! I have never heard that its easy either. I guided hunters in Colorado last year and I guarantee they hunted hard. It was 8500 ft they were from the east coast and I pushed them everyday.

[in 'em]

[quote=nobrownline;2401601] I never hear anyone complain about Starkey exp Forrest hunt and that is high fence! [quote]

Good point...

[Beamerfish]

Originally Posted by in 'em

We all share the same passion, we just have different ways we pursue it and view it.

[dubl_t]

Originally Posted by Linejerk

Here we go again don't we talk about the canned hunt, ATV, guided hunt, thing about every 6 months, just do a search I think we have found that some are for it and some are not, if you want to know what I and most every one else on here thinks about this just check the thread/threads from the last time we talked about it or the time before that or the time before that sorry I am done, rant over, for those of you that are new to the site, have at it.

yea, we do resurface old material, but if we didn't, we would all be babbling about kneedlecraft or crowcheting, or maybe kwilting. Besides, new opinions are always forming and joining, and usually welcome; unless they're from me, in which case the mods are always looking for

[Idahoan]

Good post and logical.

I too prefer DIY. But would hire a guide for the hunt of a lifetime. Or hunt private property. Defenitely not a high fence unless, it was a large space where the animals where to still WILD and not hand fed.

High fence hunts may be the future with increasing predation rates (especially if wolf population numbers continue to go unmanaged), increasing human population, and declining public land big game herds.

[chukarchaser]

So many of us, myself included, tend to get "hung up" (no pun intended) on the term "high fence". Most of us say "I would never hunt inside a high fence". I have witnessed elk behave more like domestic animals on some private land than I am willing to bet they do on some of these high fence hunts... such as the one IN'EM's uncle did in Alaska.

Not saying all private land hunts are easy but when you shoot the big 6 point in some farmer's pasture, then drive up to it with the front-loader to dump it in the back of a pickup..... that pretty much sounds like, as JerryM said, just "harvesting meat" to me. Nothing necessarily wrong with it IMO but I wouldn't call it hunting.

CC

[ORsouthpaw]

Like almost all things impressions are subjective for me personally I'm just not impressed by those that pay to have the proverbial "easy" button in their pack. I posted the words that were pasted in bold above and while I will agree that hunting means different things to different people the actual act of hunting in my mind involves more than simply buying a tag ang going to a ranch to shoot a domesticated elk. Are some DIY hunts easy? You bet, but that also depends on what your idea of easy is which come to think about it is also pretty subjective.

"easy elk"

I drove around and glassed for days, then I walked in 1 mile, came over a rise where I hoped the elk were, there was a raghorn bull, so I shot it. It took me and my partner 8 hours to pack it out.

or

The guide service had driven around and glassed for weeks prior to my arrival, then my guide and I walked in 2 miles, we came over a rise where he knew the elk would be and there were several bulls, he pointed out the 350 class one I had paid for, so I shot it. It took my guide and the rest of the ranch help 1/2 hour to pack it out.

Key in on the "I drove vs they drove" and "where he knew vs I hoped" and also "the one I paid for" That is the difference in my mind. There's nothing wrong with using a guide but I am amazed by how many people think that they are great hunters because they harvest elk on guided hunts each year. Can you work hard on a guided hunt? Absolutely Yes! but cover the same ground on your own and you will have likely worked even harder.

If you take a guy that has taken an elk 20 years in a row on guided hunts and another guy that has taken 10 elk in that same period but on public land and in DIY fashion I will be more impressed with the guy paid his dues in terms of sweat, blood and tears. Maybe it's old school thinking. To me it's just sad that in todays hunting world it's more about the end result and less about the experience for so many our so called hunting bretheren.

[Tilla]

Originally Posted by ORsouthpaw

To me it's just sad that in todays hunting world it's more about the end result and less about the experience for so many our so called hunting bretheren.

I agree, but then again I might ask for a tad bit of direction before I step out in the African bush to bag a Lion after spending $5k just to get there. You can talk about the differences about the situation, but there are some similarities.

[grnhorn]

I am a died in the wool diy, but I also have some experience with guided. The short answer is that with most guided hunts there's no silver bullet. You are not going to shoot an elk off the guides horse. The problem is, in my opinion and from what a couple of guides I know well tell me, is that a lot of the people that go guided are out of shape and not very experienced hunters. On top of that, they expect to ride a horse up to an elk, hop off, and shoot it. Simple as that.

On the one hand, it's pretty sad that there's folks out there throwing around $$ thinking that'll solve the working for it problem. For a real, fair chase, hunt, that's just not so. These are the sorts I wouldn't want to hunt with. I'm always most proud of the animals I've bagged that have taken the greatest effort.

The guide is in a bad position. He has to put up with these people and the fun factor for them is down there. They grin and bare it and work hard, but they really appreciate hunters that show up in good physical condition and are willing to do the hard work to get their game, or maybe not.

I've gotten to know a guide in MT and I really enjoy the stories of some of the people that he takes out each year. The ones that hit an animal other than the one they were aiming for! Etc. The guide doesn't condone this behavior, but he can't control it either. This last year I went with this guide for Archery, no shots, then again for rifle and had one of the most physically challenging hunts ever. He looked forward to taking me both times because he knew he was going to have fun too (by working hard).
I'd never archery hunted until last year, so I learned a lot from the guide, even though I was unsuccessful with a bow.

My trip this year was a gift, now I'm back to doing all the hard work myself and looking forward to it.

FWIW.

[dubl_t]

Originally Posted by grnhorn

I learned a lot from the guide, even though I was unsuccessful with a bow.

My trip this year was a gift, now I'm back to doing all the hard work myself and looking forward to it.

FWIW.

yep, sometimes you pay for the animal, sometimes you pay for the lesson (or experience) Nothing wrong with that.

Canned hunts? they have their place. I'm not against 'em, as the hunter is just paying the owner for the right to kill an animal on his land. Doesn't really matter what it is or where it came from. I've watched the thrill as "handi capable" and E.D. kids pulled trout from stocked ponds, and can imagine the guy without much time or without the guidance and fatherly education to "DIY" hunt have a similar elations, and in the end, feel really good about themselves.

After all, I guess that's what's really important, is that we feel good about what we do. Some people hunt for trophies, some to support their family, but in the end, it's all the same.

[nakoa]

well put

[ORsouthpaw]

Originally Posted by dubl_t

After all, I guess that's what's really important, is that we feel good about what we do.

That's sums it up right there! You don't have to condone how I hunt and I don't have to condone how someone else hunts. The thing about opinions is that they are just words, they all vary and some just don't count or matter at all.

However... if you just bought a 400" grain fed 7x7 elk from a high fenced hunt operation please don't come looking for a pat on the pack, a high five and a heartfelt congratulations from most of the DIY'ers.

[in 'em]

Originally Posted by dubl_t

I've watched the thrill as "handi capable" and E.D. kids pulled trout from stocked ponds, and can imagine the guy without much time or without the guidance and fatherly education to "DIY" hunt have a similar elations, and in the end, feel really good about themselves.

Good points everyone...couldn't agree more. The one's I feel best about are the ones I worked the hardest for too. To each his own as long as it's done so legally.

I just think we all need to be on the same team...and I think we are. We humans side with our own kind naturally, and in a debate among hunters we may seem to be at odds with one another from time to time. But if someone were to create an argument against hunting or hunters from the outside, I'd stand up with a high fence or guided hunter (whether fat and out of shape or not ) every time to protect what we love. Besides, they're the ones who have the money to help preserve our passion...joking...sort of.