Removing copper from barrel...how important?

[Old Goat]

I am going through the process of changing over to hard cast lead bullets on my big bore lever guns. It is important to get all the copper out because...copper plus flux (bullet lube) plus lead = heavy leading in the barrel and slows velocity. In theory the lead stick to the copper like it is brazed.

Separate question now. I looked into my jacketed bullet hunting rifles and there is a fair amount of copper streaking in the barrel. How important is it to remove all the copper when cleaning the guns? If you put a strong light shining at the barrel and look at a 45 degree angle or so at the muzzel, you can see the copper streaks. It takes some heavy solvent and scrubbing to get all the copper out of the barrel. Is there a benefit to doing this on a regular basis? I spent hours on my lever guns getting out all the copper...letting solvents work overnight and scrubbing the heck out of them with a brush, then patches.

Interesting fact. Once you get the copper out of your lever gun, do the fire lapping and then barrel break in. It is easy to remove any leading, which is not much. Use an undersized bore brush with a copper or brass brillow pad piece wrapped around the brush. The copper or brass scrubber takes any lead right out of the bore. After fire lapping the hard cast bullets are hitting the target 4" higher than before the lapping. Velocity increase of 200 fps. You would be amazed at the restrictions that exist in our guns. Everywhere a sight/dovetail is installed or writing is stamped on the barrel.

Do any of you slug and fire lap your jacketed hunting guns?

[Dextreme]

[quote=Old Salt;2398376]Use an undersized bore brush with a copper or brass brillow pad piece wrapped around the brush. The copper or brass scrubber takes any lead right out of the bore. quote]

I just wanted to add to this statement that many of today's brass brillow pads are in fact steel with a copper coating. So be sure to buy the choreboys that are 100% copper. (I take a magnet with me to the store and test them before I buy them.). ok, sorry for the interuption.

[Hunt'nFish]

Yes, I believe it's VERY important to get most, if not all, the copper out of my rifles when I clean them.

Normally most of my rifle are shot little and cleaned a lot.
It's only those rifles that see a lot of use, like varmint rifles, that copper fouling becomes a problem.
And by problem, I mean accuracy degrades as fouling builds up.

Rimfire .22LR rifles I NEVER clean. I believe those actually get more accurate w/ use.

For cleaning solvent, I only use aggressive ammonia based copper solvents like Sweets 7.62 and Barnes CR10.
Other solvents just take too long, and I don't have the patience for that.
These are aggressive and will rust a barrel if left wet w/ solvent for long periods. I only leave a bore wet for 3-5min before I run a patch through and repeat until all blue/green is gone. I only use nylon brushes as the copper solvent eats the bristles right off a normal bronze brush.
I finish the cleaning process w/ a good scouring w/ 99% IPA alcohol. (gun scrubber wroks just as well)
This cleans the bore of all residual ammonia and stops and rusting of the bore caused by those residues.

Fire-Lapping.....
Yes, I am a believer in fire-lapping and have done it to a few barrels, mostly Mini-14's and 10/22 barrels.

It is best only done on barrels that have demensional issues that would render them useless otherwise. It's a lap or scrap decision IMO. but many rifles which have a tight spot somewhere in the bore, can be saved by fire-lapping. This is not something you do to a barrel that is fine as is.
But if done properly, can and usually does save a barrel from the scrap pile.
Many rifles only take modest lapping to acheive some amazing improvements. But life is taken out of them as a result. But so what. Taking a little life out is a small price to pay for getting a rifle that can only manage 3-4moa to 1.5-1moa...least 1.5moa is a useful tool. a 3-4moa rifle is a worthless tool.

an example is a 7mmRem Mag BAR that would only do 3-4moa clean. Found a tight stot under the gas block and lapped 60rds w/ 600grit before I stopped at 1.5moa. For a BAR, that was good enough for me. I did not complete the project and might have found it could do better had I lapped farther. Mini-14's are another rifle that I've gotten great improvements out of. My pet Mini will do 1moa after lapping and bedding. BS? nope. Still no AR, but 1moa is a pretty useful tool IMO.
Hunt'nFish

PS: I have lapping bullets for .308, 7mm, and .224 and I used to offer pre-coated bullet lapping kits on the internet in the past to the guys on the Mini-14 forums.

[huntinfool]

Originally Posted by Hunt'nFish

Yes, I believe it's VERY important to get most, if not all, the copper out of my rifles when I clean them.

Normally most of my rifle are shot little and cleaned a lot.
It's only those rifles that see a lot of use, like varmint rifles, that copper fouling becomes a problem.
And by problem, I mean accuracy degrades as fouling builds up.

Rimfire .22LR rifles I NEVER clean. I believe those actually get more accurate w/ use.

For cleaning solvent, I only use aggressive ammonia based copper solvents like Sweets 7.62 and Barnes CR10.
Other solvents just take too long, and I don't have the patience for that.
These are aggressive and will rust a barrel if left wet w/ solvent for long periods. I only leave a bore wet for 3-5min before I run a patch through and repeat until all blue/green is gone. I only use nylon brushes as the copper solvent eats the bristles right off a normal bronze brush.
I finish the cleaning process w/ a good scouring w/ 99% IPA alcohol. (gun scrubber wroks just as well)
This cleans the bore of all residual ammonia and stops and rusting of the bore caused by those residues.

Fire-Lapping.....
Yes, I am a believer in fire-lapping and have done it to a few barrels, mostly Mini-14's and 10/22 barrels.

It is best only done on barrels that have demensional issues that would render them useless otherwise. It's a lap or scrap decision IMO. but many rifles which have a tight spot somewhere in the bore, can be saved by fire-lapping. This is not something you do to a barrel that is fine as is.
But if done properly, can and usually does save a barrel from the scrap pile.
Many rifles only take modest lapping to acheive some amazing improvements. But life is taken out of them as a result. But so what. Taking a little life out is a small price to pay for getting a rifle that can only manage 3-4moa to 1.5-1moa...least 1.5moa is a useful tool. a 3-4moa rifle is a worthless tool.

an example is a 7mmRem Mag BAR that would only do 3-4moa clean. Found a tight stot under the gas block and lapped 60rds w/ 600grit before I stopped at 1.5moa. For a BAR, that was good enough for me. I did not complete the project and might have found it could do better had I lapped farther. Mini-14's are another rifle that I've gotten great improvements out of. My pet Mini will do 1moa after lapping and bedding. BS? nope. Still no AR, but 1moa is a pretty useful tool IMO.
Hunt'nFish

PS: I have lapping bullets for .308, 7mm, and .224 and I used to offer pre-coated bullet lapping kits on the internet in the past to the guys on the Mini-14 forums.

Use a bronze brush. A dozen only cost $10 bucks and will last a long time if you rinse them in alcohol or carb cleaner when done using them. The nylon brushes do very little scrubbing for the effort.

[DAB]

IMHO and from exsperence I find that copper fowling is not good for accurcy.

Some bullets fowl a bore quicker than others.

If you use Barnes CR 10 no brush of any kind is needed but if you do want to use a brush I vote for a nylon brush only IMHO. I have an old pre 64 Win that is worse than any other rifle I have as far as copper fowling goes and I clean it with Hoppies powder solvent first then I start in with the CR 10, I wet the barrel with CR 10 let set about 5 min. then take another patch wetted with CR 10 and run it back and forth a few time, run 3 or 4 dry patches through and repeat process till copper fowling is gone, then wet patch with Hoppies powder solvent and wet bore, let stand a while, wipe dry and repeat with another round of Hoppies, then dry the bore and oil. never had any rust with this way of cleaning.

When I do use a brush it is only a nylon brush. I havent found that a brush makes it quicker to clean out copper fowling or not. Tight fitting patchs seems to work the best for me.

DAB

[ehunter]

I have had good luck with the bore foam spray it in leave it for awhile and patch it out. I can see the difference on the target if I get too much copper in there.

Originally Posted by DAB

IMHO and from exsperence I find that copper fowling is not good for accurcy.

Some bullets fowl a bore quicker than others.

If you use Barnes CR 10 no brush of any kind is needed but if you do want to use a brush I vote for a nylon brush only IMHO. I have an old pre 64 Win that is worse than any other rifle I have as far as copper fowling goes and I clean it with Hoppies powder solvent first then I start in with the CR 10, I wet the barrel with CR 10 let set about 5 min. then take another patch wetted with CR 10 and run it back and forth a few time, run 3 or 4 dry patches through and repeat process till copper fowling is gone, then wet patch with Hoppies powder solvent and wet bore, let stand a while, wipe dry and repeat with another round of Hoppies, then dry the bore and oil. never had any rust with this way of cleaning.

When I do use a brush it is only a nylon brush. I havent found that a brush makes it quicker to clean out copper fowling or not. Tight fitting patchs seems to work the best for me.

DAB

[Hunt'nFish]

Originally Posted by huntinfool

Use a bronze brush. A dozen only cost $10 bucks and will last a long time if you rinse them in alcohol or carb cleaner when done using them. The nylon brushes do very little scrubbing for the effort.

Well you could do it that way, but I haven't had to replace even a single nylon brush since I bought them.
I don't rely on physical srubbing action to remove copper, but rather the chemical action of the ammonia.
I only need the brush to slop on the solvent and get the whole bore wet.

But I agree, rinsing your brushes is important.
If even to prevent redepositing old green/blue copper ladden solvent back in the bore.
Seems it takes more patches that I think to get them totally free of copper, I don't need to be misled by a dirty brush.
Hunt'nFish

[Old Goat]

I have one pubication that advocates using straight ammonia. Would be cheap! That is the point of the recommendation.

[billc_sbio]

Originally Posted by Old Salt

I have one pubication that advocates using straight ammonia. Would be cheap! That is the point of the recommendation.

Yeah, but a bottle of Sweet's 7.62 isn't THAT expensive!

(I mean it will last for years and years)

[Chesapeake]

Originally Posted by Old Salt

I have one pubication that advocates using straight ammonia. Would be cheap! That is the point of the recommendation.

Where would you get straight amonia?

That Sweets stuff is powerfull. I like the Shooters Choice bore cleaner for average cleaning jobs and only go to the Sweets for the big time clean jobs.

[Old Goat]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake

Where would you get straight amonia?

Under your kitchen cabinet.

[Flatfish]

Sweets on copper.

Shooters choice on powder.

Bronze brushes.

Every once in a while, JB the snot out of it.

[fish forever]

A lot of people believe that more rifle barrels are worn out by cleaning than shooting.

In High power competition - many competititors go 100's of rounds without cleaning or if they do, they only get the powder fowling. Many rifles will shoot better groups after shooting 5-10 rounds as the barrrel gets an 'even' condition.

For hunting I think the big thing is to have the barrel sighted in for the condition you are going to be shooting it in. YOu dont want to sight it in after 30-40 rounds and then clean and take it into the field with a clean barrel. That clean barrel may shoot different than the fouled barrel.

[baltz526]

sweets is 5% ammonia with other chemicals. it makes a chemical reaction to disolve the copper. how would strait ammomia do this reaction to disolve the copper

[Chesapeake]

Originally Posted by Old Salt

Under your kitchen cabinet.

The stuff under my sink is the run of the mill cleaning product that is maybe 5-10% ammonia. I'm not sure what you have under you're cabinet.

[cooky]

Originally Posted by baltz526

sweets is 5% ammonia with other chemicals. it makes a chemical reaction to disolve the copper. how would strait ammomia do this reaction to disolve the copper

Ammonium hydroxide and ammonium salts combine with copper ions to form cupric ammonium complex ions [Cu(NH3)42+], which hold the etched and dissolved copper in solution at 18 to 30 oz/gal.

Typical oxidation reactions for closed-loop systems are shown by the reaction of cupric ion on copper, and air (O2) oxidation of the cuprous complex ion:

Cu + Cu(NH3)42+ => 2Cu(NH3)2+ (21.1)

2Cu(NH3)2+ + 2NH4+ + 2NH3 + ½ O2 => 2Cu(NH3)42++ H2O (21.2)


Purchased NH4 is likely to be in some form of NH4 salt in solution. It looks like any NH4OH Ammonium hydroxide base you could find would probably be a pretty good copper solvent too. Note that all these solutions are dilute which probably explains why the sweets is only 5% NH4. Careful boyz, base can burn the **** out of ya.

[baltz526]

i just looked under the kitchen sink, no ammonia.

[Old Goat]

Originally Posted by baltz526

i just looked under the kitchen sink, no ammonia.

Check the camper, I bet it is there.

[baltz526]

no, i remember using the last on a batch of widow cleaner i mixed. i found a bottle in my father in laws stuff after he died. 60% ammonia, scared me to even think about using it. i tossed it. now i wish i did not.

[Chesapeake]

I have household ammonia. I used ot use it to clean my Mosin after shooting surplus ammo as a means to counteract the corrosive surplus ammo.

For what its worth I dont recall it noticably removing the copper fouling from my rifle. I'll admit I didnt pay special attention, but I dont remember any blue green patches until I used the Shooters choice or the Sweets. I sure never thought "wow I should use this on all my guns".

What say you all about possible damage from such chemicals? I believe the Sweets and most others say not to leave it in contact with the bore for very long.

[baltz526]

the bottle of sweets say 15 minutes max

[DAB]

Originally Posted by ehunter

I have had good luck with the bore foam spray it in leave it for awhile and patch it out. I can see the difference on the target if I get too much copper in there.

I have used it to, it does work, and it is simple to use. I can not say that CR10 does a better job but it seems to work faster than the foam.

I have both but use the CR10.


DAB

[Ifishsum]

Originally Posted by fish forever

A lot of people believe that more rifle barrels are worn out by cleaning than shooting.

Make that improper cleaning and I'll agree with you. Done properly you won't hurt it. Cheap aluminum rods and lack of a bore guide have probably ruined more barrels than anything.

I like Sweets 7.62 for copper fouling because it works fast. After I've done my regular cleaning routine I dry the bore and soak a good tight fitting patch with Sweets, then using a jag I run that patch back and forth in the barrel for about 10 strokes, let it soak for about 5 minutes then push through a couple of dry patches. Most of the time this seems to knock down 80% of the copper fouling. Sometimes on older bores you'll get alternating layers of copper and powder fouling, so I'll alternate between my regular Hoppes No. 9 and the Sweets (with a brush and dry patch in between) because the Sweets doesn't dissolve powder fouling.

I usually only do this once a year on my hunting rifles, after the season is over. Fish forever is right - the first few shots from a truly clean bore are often off target, so once I'm sighted in right before the hunt I don't clean the bore at all until the season is over.

[Fishbulb]

The electrolysis method is out of this world. Works wonders on barrels that have never had copper fouling removed. Takes it down to the steel. 50/50 household ammonia to H2O solution works swell. You won't believe the crud you'll get on the rod.

Copper removal on the super cheap.

http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=31740.0