Buying Lab From Breeder

bigdawgwill44 · 02-08-2009, 07:06 PM

One of my reasons for going to the Sportsman's show was to check out the various lab dog breeders and get a feel for what they offer and etc. Most pups are around $1000-$1500 plus you pay for additional services (obedience, gun/field training, etc). I was wondering if you could still get a quality dog if you bought from a private breeder where you spend more like $400-$500 and then pay for your dogs training from one of the breeders from the show?

Capin' Dan · 02-08-2009, 07:18 PM

Sure you can just check out the parents and health clearences. What you are paying for wiht the trainier and well known breeders is years and years of breeding in most cases.

DogZilla15 · 02-08-2009, 07:24 PM

Well...the answer is yes but you've got to do your homework. Don't buy without a recommendation from somebody who actually knows something about dogs.

Have you thought of training the dog yourself? Plenty of good books and on-line help at various hunting dog web sites. It really isn't that difficult if you go at it with a plan.

Not all those $1000/$1500 dogs are equal. Be careful where you spend your money. No matter who the breeder is, you still need recommendations from knowledgeable folks. Lots of money is no guarantee of quality.

Hawk · 02-08-2009, 07:29 PM

The Humane Society wants $500 or so for (literally) "Pound Puppies". I think you'd be hard pressed to get a "good" dog for much less than about $800. I think that extra money buys intelligence, trainability, health, and a few "intangibles" that definitely add value. After shopping the Humane Society and "outlet sources" we paid $1000 for our Katie almost four years ago and at the time I could not believe I was paying that much for a puppy. Looking back we got an incredibly great deal for our little girl.

Maineiac · 02-08-2009, 07:36 PM

Better to spend the money and get a dog with good genetics and a long history of success in the family. That is no guarantee that your dog will be a super star but genetics and heredity are all about odds, and in my opinion it is better to pay a higher fee to gets the odds in your favor. Acquisition cost, over the life of a good dog, seems like one of the smaller expenses, just be careful of the breeder you choose, some are significantly better than other at providing service to the customers. Get a good "feel" for the breeder, if they send of a weird vibe than steer clear, IMHO.

steelheadslayer · 02-08-2009, 07:57 PM

I'd shop around. There are plenty of breeders that turn out excellent dogs for less than $1000. Do an internet search and then get references from prior clients and also take whatever pedigrees you can come up with and have someone knowledgable whom you trust to give an 'honest' opinion. Plus, training time and expenses can vary widely, do it yourself and you can see just what the dog is doing and at what stage.

where's your bobber dude · 02-08-2009, 08:20 PM

We got our dog through Parkdale Kennels. They were at the show and butch, the owner, was there. He is great and truly loves his job. The quality of their dogs is hard to beat. Our dog is a natural and almost too smart. You can get a good dog at a lot of places but if you wants the best you get what you pay for.

jmshave · 02-09-2009, 06:17 PM

$400, $1500 or anywhere in between, the purchase price will likely be the cheap part of the deal.

PullShootExplode · 02-09-2009, 08:13 PM

Cheapest part is the up front purchase. Find a breeder through friends associates fellow ifishers. Do your homework there are alot of backyard breeders out there so be aware. Some are good and some are not gery good at all. I like the idea of a 2 yr guarantee for hips,eyes and elbows. If the dog doesn't make the grade they refund your money or you get the pick of next litter. Check out the history of both the dame and sire and make sure they are not cross breeding. This happens more than you think. I also recommend looking into doggie insurance as the vet bills can be outrageous for a working dog. As far as training it is far more enjoyable to train the dog yourself and pays off during the years of service they give to you. There are some amazing trainers out there and remember you will need to put in your time as well to keep your pup sharp.

TheJester357 · 02-10-2009, 06:43 AM

Another thing to consider is that not every dog with championship bloodlines is going to be a great family dog. My neighbor got a great dog from a well known breeder, and 3 years later, he's talking about getting rid of the dog. He has great instincts, and a TON of drive, but he fights with other dogs, chews up EVERYTHING in the yard, and will not sit still in the blind (even with the collar on 8

). Some dogs are bred to be field trial dogs, and some are not. Just be sure of what you are looking for before you buy. The best duck dog I've ever had came out of a $300 a pup litter from a buddy's hunting dog. Best of luck on your quest.

Bob

croation2 · 02-10-2009, 07:26 AM

My lab has a lot of allergies which cost a potload of money each year for meds and special food. Seems like alot of other people have the same problem with labs. I don't know how to insure against this, but next time I'm in the market, I will probably get a companion mutt from the pound. If I looked at cost per retrieve, I'd be in the 1000.00 dollar range! Just depends how much time the dog is in the field. "Some" of these breeders run the lines pretty tight! Good Luck

jr5575 · 02-10-2009, 07:37 AM

I got mine for free from a couple in shady cove. They both had pure bred labs before they met and then after they moved in together they had a litter of little pups before he had his male fixed. Toby is 1 year old this month and he has retrived the heck out of duck and geese this year for me. He is also my best friend, with me every minute of the day. I will continue to belive it is the owner and dog more so than how much one spends for the dog or where it came from. Just my

llama77 · 02-10-2009, 07:40 AM

The term "backyard breeder" can be misleading. There are a lot of very good dogs out there that come from folks that only breed occaisionally.

Often the pedigrees and guarantees are the same as long time breeders.

Theres a local well known breeder that you couldnt pay me to take a pup from.

Crossbreeding. Theres crossbreeding and then theres line breeding. Line breeding is an effective method to maintain strengths of bloodlines.

It increases the ability to predict the traits the pups will have.

Look at Elk. The big Bulls breed most of the cows. Then when the calves grow up, The next generation of bulls end up breeding some of their own sisters and nieces. The strong traits get passed on.

You can look at outcrosses, but then you are back at a lower odds of predicting which traits get passed down.

And remember. The best breeding in the world will not produce a litter full of Field Champions. Not all the pups will have what it takes. What the pedigree gives us is "better" odds of getting what we are looking for.

So get a copy of the pedigrees from the expensive dogs. Learn how to read them. Then compare with a so called "backyard breeders " dog.

With patience you should be able to find a gem. Whatever you do, do some research and dont go look at pups until you know what you want in a pedigree and guarantee.

rimrock · 02-10-2009, 07:49 AM

Good tips llama77, nicely said.

James in Idaho · 02-10-2009, 08:05 AM

You might want to check with some of the hunt test folks in your area, well bred labs are not uncommon, and the only reason for you to look at $1000 labs is if you are looking at the field trial game. But as others have mentioned, a full field trial breeding can be a very high powered dog. Check out Working Retriver Central and a couple of the other field/hunt test forums. It's not hard to ship a puppy this time of year.

bigdawgwill44 · 02-10-2009, 08:21 AM

Hey guys I really appreciate all the information being produced on this thread. It will sure help me out in the near future when I begin my search. I do have another question however. Looking at several labs at the sportsman show or friends labs there are certain characteristics i really like. I want a male with short squared nose, deep barrel chest and stocky hind legs. I saw one that totally fit this description. Is this something i can talk to breeders about achieving this look or is it luck of the draw? Thanks!

DogZilla15 · 02-10-2009, 08:21 AM

Agree with Llama also....and some others. Unfair to place all "backyard" breeders in the same basket. Some of them have very high standards which is more than can be said for many of the large kennels.

Threemuch · 02-10-2009, 08:37 AM

I have a "full field trial" bred lab, with FCs on both sides, NFC grandpa on the sires side, and she sleeps in a chair 90% of the time, skinny legs and all. I get tired of the "hard charger" stereotype thrown on most american trial bred labs. I have seen out of control dogs of both types. My neighbor has a classic english lab, block headed, short legged, otter tailed lab that knocks everything down in the house every time it comes inside, and never sits still.

You can get anything you want out of a breeding, and I think most breeders won't BS you since they primarily count on word of mouth rather than repeat business. To me, this is the main difference in a person who breeds for a living vs. someone who does it for a hobby or as a rare event. The breeder counts on his reputation to bring business. A hobby breeder or "backyard" breeder probably isn't depending on his reputation or repeat business.

You can get a dog for $500, even registered, but rarely with parents who have any documented accomplishments.

Spending a kilobuck on a good breeding from a reputable breeder seems to me to be an OK decision if you find the breeding you want. A dog will run you $10K+ over it's lifetime. And you have to put up with the dog for the next 10-12 years if you are lucky. The price of the pup is the cheap part.

Any breeding is a risky venture. Great dogs do not always throw great dogs. A repeat breeding where you can talk to the owners of some of the pups from the previous breeding is your best bet, and well worth extra expense in my opinion.

Eagleclaw · 02-10-2009, 08:55 AM

http://www.ifish.net/board/showthrea...highlight=pups

bigdawgwill44 · 02-10-2009, 09:32 AM

So to achieve the desired look i need to look into English Labs?

ElkChaser · 02-10-2009, 09:46 AM

I would be careful buying a dog based upon a specific look. Obviously when you buy a dog you want to make sure it looks good. If you get to caught up in buying for a specific look you may giving other desirable traits.

I would look first for a dog or breeder that has dogs with the specific traits you desire and then narrow it down to the dogs that have the appearance you want.

Hawaiian Time · 02-10-2009, 09:46 AM

Having trained and bred field labradors since 1995 I think I have some incite into the breeding process. My breeding programs highest priority is getting the best genetics possible. By this I mean, producing the puppy that will in most cases live a long and healthy life. In order to accomplish this, I get a puppy from sound stock with health clearances for several generations back. As they get older they will all get their clearance prior to even being consider for breeding purposes. Years back the standard was Hip/Eyes. Then Elbows were included. Today you have DNA tests for Muscular Myopathy(CNM) and also for Excercise Induced Collapse (EIC). These last two identified recessive genes are probably the biggest problem to deal with today in responsible breeding practices.

They have discovered that as high as 40% of Labradors carry the recessive gene for EIC. A recessive gene is a gene that both sire and damsel have to have to have in order to produce an affective puppy. So if you as a breeder are not testing your dog and your dog is a carrier, you could very well end up breeding your dog to another carrier causing the litter to produce affected puppies. If you are breeding, you should have your dog tested if you are breeding to another non-tested dog so that you will be ensured that your litter will not produce an affected puppy. If you've ever seen a CNM or EIC affected puppy, it would break your heart.

I may throw on average of 2 litters a year. Am I a backyard breeder? Hardly! All my girls have been tested for everything mentioned. I have two that carry the recessive EIC gene but now with this knowledge, I can make sure that I breed to a non-carrier, which would produce no affected puppies. I do not breed any dog that does not have good or excellent hips. And do not think that this is only isolated in field labs as it is also in show bloodlines and also in other breeds as well.

So, to the future puppy buyers, I hope this gives you some incite into what a good, responsible breeding program is. I can tell you that many of the big kennels in the area do not test for CNM or EIC. Some may even tell you that they don't have any problems with CNM or EIC. What you should do as a potential puppy buyer is to educate yourself prior to heading out. If you ask for documentation on health clearances, and you get a run around explanation, then I would say they don't have them. If you ask about CNM and EIC and they have no knowledge about the problem then I would walk away.

Prices of puppies. Keep in mind that a responsible breeder spends hundreds of $s to get the testing done but in the long run it produces a better quality puppy that will have a better chance of living a long and normal life. Please keep in mind that you usually get what you pay for. Many of my clients have bought in the past inexpensive puppies, only to suffer much heartache when for example at 7 months a serious hip displasia problem pops up. They then end up spending thousands on the surgury to correct the problem. You can get quality dogs at an affordable price, if you do your homework. Hope this helps some of you. HT

James in Idaho · 02-10-2009, 10:44 AM

Decide what you can afford, look for litters in that range, and follow the health guidelines that HT has posted. Most of all remember that no matter how that little 7 to 8 week bundle of joy acts when you take him home is NOT the dog that he'll be. Decide what you want, look for a breeder that is trying to produce what you want. Labs are THE most common dog registered with the AKC, you have lots of options.

I'm not knocking field trial labs, I've owned one and been around hundreds, including some NFC's. But they are bred for preformance, and they can be a handful for a novice trainer, heck some are a handful for a really experianced trainer. They're supposed to be, some have better off switches than others, generally the real top tier dogs know how to relax. But the reality of labs is that those breedings are not all that accessable to the "joe six-pack" hunter/maybe do some hunt tests guys. I don't really understand the whole concept of breeders at sport shows, but we don't have big sport shows around here! But I'm pretty sure there is a cost associated with being at such a show. I've never bought a dog from that type of breeder, not sure I'd be all that interested. Just not my cup of tea. I've bought all my dogs from small "hobby" breeders, but I've done my homework. I've been blessed with very healthy dogs who have done almost everything I've wanted them too. The lab I had (line bred on Lean Mac, btw) was a PAIN around the house, far, far more stubborn than any of my chessies, he had enough electricity run thru him to light up Portland! I still enjoyed him, and when he got away from a friend when I was out of town and killed, I cryed along with my daughter.

Now if you want a real challange, try finding a well bred field chessie with all the health clearances!

BTW, the picnic tests and hunt test season is just around the corner. Go watch and talk to some folks. PM Tilla, he'll know the schedules. Some of the best money you'll spend after you get your pup is joining a retriever club.

llama77 · 02-11-2009, 08:15 PM

Bigdawg,

If you are focused on a look, then you should go look at the parents, and then as many of their grown offspring as possible.

When you find the parents that are producing the pups that grow up to look lik ewhat you have in mind, then buy one.

But dont be surprised later if the lack something you need in the field.

Hawaiian time, Yes you are a backyard breeder. But apparently a responsible one. Good for you!!!!

Look at the breeding that duck master has on the classifieds. (the link eagleclaw posted). Mollys pups have a pretty good pedigree. Mom and dad dont have any exceptional titles. But the pedigree overall is really good and if I were in the market for a lab, I probably would get one.
My friend did.

nailyard · 02-11-2009, 10:00 PM

I bought our third lab from a close friend who's dog was coaxed over the fence to breed the neighbor girl...

Since I knew the sire and damsel, it was pretty easy to know the pup would have the traits we were looking for in a hard charging lab. He's about 20 months and a great dog. Big full and blocky. Our vet was correct when she said to leave him intact for a couple of years to bulk up.

I have found that many of the faults of a pup are really inconsistencies of the owners. All three labs go with us to the office daily. The pup knows his rug at the office and mutt hut at home. Because he knows his boundaries at home he also knows his boundaries in the field.

There are some exceptional free to $400 dogs available. We have three of them.

Tilla · 02-11-2009, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdawgwill44

So to achieve the desired look i need to look into English Labs?

I think you are headed in the wrong direction in my opinion. You might study things a little longer. You will only make this mistake once, next time you will figure out what really matters. Brains, heart, performance and your best friend.
Kinda similar to deciding that your only best lifelong mate will come equiped with double D's.
Just make sure that dog has a snoot long enough to hold a bird and not smushed in like they have had their nose in a food dish all their lives.

I'll shuddup now. (Until James starts pushing smelly Chessies again.)