the one shell hunter

baltz526 · 01-24-2009, 07:36 AM

back in the old days (a couple decades ago) a shotgun hunters ammo box would have one type shell in it for most hunting. a guy would buy a case and shoot it for everything but geese. he might have a couple boxs of goose shells in the ammo box but the majority of shells was THE load he used. the one shell hunter, basicly. right now i'm working on the "one shell" in nontoxic steel shot. a shell to use on all flying critters i hunt from october to january. except geese. i'm trying to load it for as cheap as possible, using free hulls used on the sporting clays course (thanks lucky guy) exact recipe is still under consideration but it will be a 2 3/4" 1 oz load of #3 steel at approximately 1500fps. a generic load like the old 1 1/4oz of #6's used to be. grab the ammo box and head out for a week hunt, quail, pigeon, crow, ducks, pheasants, rabbits all on the same river/lake type of shell. and if some geese fly by under 40yds they will be in a hazard zone. when i shoot the same shell at everything i have a better success rate, so that is my goal. if i was buying the ONE shell, i would look at the kent 1 1/16oz 2 3/4" load in #3 steel. a generic shell is also a not perfect for everything shell, but usable.

Wreckless · 01-24-2009, 07:50 AM

This is a neat concept. I remember my dad would get together with some buddies and buy several cases of Winchester 2 3/4" #6's. Back then they were papers. Then maybe a couple boxes of #2's. All lead of course. Between Klamath Lake, Summer Lake and local ponds they'd shoot them up. My dad always said he'd kill more Geese every year with #6's than #2's, because, "that's what was in my gun when they flew by".

We diversified a bit when he started reloading for trap shooting & hunting, but there were still always a BUNCH of 2 3/4" #6's on the shelf.....There still are

Also, he always told me that he's killed way more Elk with his '06 than his .300 weatherby because after a few days, he got tired of carrying it and he'd go back to the featherweight.

I know this wasn't your intent, but thanks for the trip down memory lane.

I think the 1 1/16 #3's would be as close the the old #6's as you could get, good luck, it sounds fun.

baltz526 · 01-25-2009, 06:21 AM

one trip to summer lake this year proved it will kill big northern mallards. 1oz of steel #3 from the batch of 50lbs i'm using is 150 pellets.

Dr Strangelove · 01-25-2009, 08:08 AM

I hunt all species except for goose with Hevishot 1oz 2.75" 20ga.
I get the same performance with HS 1 1/8 oz 2.75" in a 12ga.

I would think #3 steel is a great choice with your load, but I might be tempted to up the load to 1 1/8 if the velocity wouldn't suffer. What velocity are you running? Of course choke pattern is crucial.

baltz526 · 01-25-2009, 08:41 AM

exact velocity is to be determined and hull/wad combo will hold a max load of 1 1/16 oz of #3 steel. i'll be right in the 1475-1525fps range over the cronograph at 3' when load is finished. first tests show very tight patterns out of my 870 with .705 imp mod trulock choke. i'll be doing on paper pattern tests as the weather improves. i want this load to function in my 1100 so it will be the testing gun.

WSU · 01-25-2009, 09:04 AM

This seems like it may be a good idea, but I am wondering why? You for sure will be using a less effective load than possible a large portion of the time (such as when lead can be used). Nostalgia?

SImudBogger · 01-25-2009, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WSU

This seems like it may be a good idea, but I am wondering why? You for sure will be using a less effective load than possible a large portion of the time (such as when lead can be used). Nostalgia?

My guess is when he's hitting the chukar hills he might want to shoot some ducks in the creek at the bottom and doesn't want to switch shells around.

baltz526 · 01-25-2009, 10:42 AM

yes it is illegal to use lead shot in areas i hunt, and for waterfowl while chukar hunting. you are not even supposed to have any lead shot in your rig while on some areas. so the solution is just load up one ammo box for all areas. in the box i'll have several days hunting worth of the "one load" steel shells. and specialty nontox shells. just trying to simplify a week hunt, jumping from spot to spot. and not worrying about what shells are in the truck when hunting a refuge

WSU · 01-25-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baltz526

yes it is illegal to use lead shot in areas i hunt, and for waterfowl while chukar hunting. you are not even supposed to have any lead shot in your rig while on some areas. so the solution is just load up one ammo box for all areas. in the box i'll have several days hunting worth of the "one load" steel shells. and specialty nontox shells. just trying to simplify a week hunt, jumping from spot to spot. and not worrying about what shells are in the truck when hunting a refuge

That makes sense to me, I was curious what the rationale was. I knew you weren't supposed to have lead on your person when shooting waterfoul, and it makes sense if you plan to do mixed bag hunts. Are you planning on using it when not doing mixed bag hunts?

SImudBogger · 01-25-2009, 03:44 PM

When my great grandpa passed away a few years ago my grandpa got a bunch of really old hunting stuff he still had. That man had something like 25 FULL boxes of shotgun shells. 20 of them were high brass #6, the rest were #2.

Grandpa said thats all you ever needed, the 6's for ducks, pheasant, rabbits and grouse, and the 2's for geese. There was some 00 buck in there also

baltz526 · 01-25-2009, 04:25 PM

for day hunts out of the house i'll be trying to burn up my current supply of lead shot. and use up the rest on sporting clays, which i'm going to do more of.

Don Fischer · 01-25-2009, 07:04 PM

Hey Baltz I'm courious. How do you shoot over your cronograph with a shotgun loaded with shot? I'm afraid I'd take out my screen's!

baltz526 · 01-25-2009, 07:25 PM

at 3' or 5' the shot is in the wad. just a big bullet. but i have killed a cronograph.

StickFish · 01-25-2009, 07:51 PM

All I have to say is, "watch out for the guy with one gun - he knows how to use it!"

James in Idaho · 01-26-2009, 09:19 AM

I've used the Kent #3's for years in 2 3/4. Deadly. Don't know at todays prices if reloading steel is worth it, I'd like to see what it bottom lines out at. I can usually get a case of Kents for under $90. But since the dog is old enough and deaf enough I haven't hunted waterfowl much the last two years, and the 4 days a week pheasant hunts are past him too. So I haven't had to buy shells in a while!

Mooch · 01-26-2009, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StickFish

All I have to say is, "watch out for the guy with one gun - he knows how to use it!"

Thats it,you don't have to relearn your lead every time you go hunting.

My buddy shoots about 10 different loads. I swear he has a different load for every bird we hunt. He always takes about a 1/2 box of shells to start hitting birds with each load though.

Chesapeake · 01-26-2009, 11:26 AM

Back when I reloaded steel I had a pet load. It was 2 3/4" with about an once of #2 with about an 1/8 oz. of BB on top. It killed ducks great.

I also had a goose load with TT or maybe TTT or F shot.

baltz526 · 01-26-2009, 11:34 AM

right now the best i can do on a 1oz steel #3 reload at 1500fps is right at $7.38 per box of 25. i do not load them for saving money. but good loads are very consistant in velocity and patterns. just a hobby

Chesapeake · 01-26-2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baltz526

right now the best i can do on a 1oz steel #3 reload at 1500fps is right at $7.38 per box of 25. i do not load them for saving money. but good loads are very consistant in velocity and patterns. just a hobby

Where do you get your supplies? I let Alex talk me into getting the MEC press from my brother, and now I'm thinking about starting in on it. I ran the figures and it looks like with shot, powder, primer, and wad, (my cases) I could produce a 3 1/2" load with 1 3/8 oz of #2 for about $10.50 a box.

Problem is the Sizemaster only does 3". I would need to drop another $250 o a press to get started doing 3 1/2".

baltz526 · 01-26-2009, 01:46 PM

wads are the difference, the cheap steel shot wads are $10.99 per 200. but only rated for upto #3 steel. i use them for #1's in some loads. the wads like the MM1235 you need for a 3 1/2" 12ga load are $10.99 per 100. when you add the extra shot and powder you get up to the approximate $10 level. the only shells you can make a substantial savings per box by reloading is 3 1/2" 12ga and 10ga. on your current press is there enough shaft length to drill and tap a new hole 1/2" lower on the shaft. if there is, that is all it would take to turn your current 3" press into a 3 1/2". a new hole in the sleeve might work also

Chesapeake · 01-26-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baltz526

wads are the difference, the cheap steel shot wads are $10.99 per 200. but only rated for upto #3 steel. i use them for #1's in some loads. the wads like the MM1235 you need for a 3 1/2" 12ga load are $10.99 per 100. when you add the extra shot and powder you get up to the approximate $10 level. the only shells you can make a substantial savings per box by reloading is 3 1/2" 12ga and 10ga. on your current press is there enough shaft length to drill and tap a new hole 1/2" lower on the shaft. if there is, that is all it would take to turn your current 3" press into a 3 1/2". a new hole in the sleeve might work also

The press is a MEC Sizemaster. I dont know if it could be drilled. If thats all thats needed was to lengthen the shaft, that could be handled easy enough. I would be concerned the stroke wouldnt be long enough.

(I did an internet search and it turns out for $80 I can buy a kit to conver to 3 1/2" shells)

I wouldnt need a large savings per box. The plan is to load for myself and Alex so we would go through a couple cases per year. Even a little savings per box would add up quick.

Also I'm thinking of a high velocity F load for coyotes. We currently use Dead coyote (1 5/8 oz Heavy shot T at 1350). I'm thinking 1 3/8 oz or so of F at 1550 or so would work. The Heavy shot is neer $40 a box of 10 so it would be easy to save money there.

HuntNFishAddict · 01-26-2009, 02:26 PM

Baltz,
I think you said you are using only 2 3/4" shells. If it was affordable the load I would shoot for everything in your circumstances would be 1 1/8 of Hevishot #4 or #6. This stuff is deadly on ducks and would be great on roosters and also chukars.

I told my buddies that if I could choose only one load to shoot for everything I would shoot 3" 1 1/4oz #4 Hevishot. This stuff is deadly. I would actually like to see someone with some statistical ablility (not me) do the math on whether or not it would be cost effective to shoot it all the time instead of using cheap steel shot.

Hunt'nFish · 01-26-2009, 02:50 PM

Yeah, wouldn't that be great if bags of Hevi-Shot were reasonably priced.
Heck, even I would be reloading a 1-1/4oz load of #6's.

Richard, I like your thinking along the 1-1/16oz #3's load. Probably about the closest you'll come.
But, if you happen to can come up w/ a 2-3/4" 1-1/4oz #3 load at 1400....let me know.

Hunt'nFish

baltz526 · 01-26-2009, 02:57 PM

it is not $ wise for the hevishot. it adds about $1.30 plus per shell to the shot. 1 oz of steel costs 11.75 cents per ounce, 1 ounce of hevishot shipped costs $1.52 per ounce, then the wads are 5.5 cents more each. so each shell loaded is $1.76 each or $44 per box of 25 compared to $7.38.

baltz526 · 01-26-2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunt'nFish

Yeah, wouldn't that be great if bags of Hevi-Shot were reasonably priced.
Heck, even I would be reloading a 1-1/4oz load of #6's.

Richard, I like your thinking along the 1-1/16oz #3's load. Probably about the closest you'll come.
But, if you happen to can come up w/ a 2-3/4" 1-1/4oz #3 load at 1400....let me know.

Hunt'nFish

easy, just roll crimp a 1 1/4 oz 3" load in a 2 3/4" hull. this is a load a lot of guys are using. i have even seen a tested load at 1550fps using new hulls. pm on the way with link

Linejerk · 01-26-2009, 03:17 PM

If anyone wants a MEC� 600 Jr. Mark 5 Reloader I have one I wil sell for $50

Old Guys Rule · 01-26-2009, 04:02 PM

98% of what I shot this year was Estate 3" mag 1 1/4 oz #4s at 1450 fps

Doesn't matter what kind of bird comes in - teal quail, mallard, pheasant, goose. If it is inside 45 yds, this load is deadly. If it is outside 45 yds, I don't shoot. Make good cripple loads also. Back to the single shell solution.

These are made in the Federal plant with Federal components. At $8.99/box it does not pay to reload when I can shoot factory ammo.

Hunt'nFish · 01-26-2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baltz526

easy, just roll crimp a 1 1/4 oz 3" load in a 2 3/4" hull. this is a load a lot of guys are using. i have even seen a tested load at 1550fps using new hulls. pm on the way with link

I know, I used to love the old original Hevi-Shot roll crimped 3" loads in my Auto-5's....but when Rem started loading them for them they stopped using the roll crimp.

I had a press setup for roll crimping and tried to get it to work. Didn't seem to work well for me. And I also decided that they wouldn't be as waterproof as folded crimps. So I sold that press, bought a new 3.5" gun and went to sale priced factory RemSteel.

But I have to admit, I wish I could've made it work. Lately I've been shooting 3" 1-1/4oz #3's at 1400. Now, knowing that the pressure specs on the 3" leave some room for hot-rodding, I'd be interested in a high pressure 2-3/4" running at 3.5" pressure specs. Crazy?....maybe. But sure would like to put the Auto-5's back in action. I shot them well.
Hunt'nFish

Bigburnbucks · 01-26-2009, 04:41 PM

The one great waterfowl round would have to be kent 1 1/8oz 2's. I shoot that all year but upland is a different story.

baltz526 · 01-26-2009, 05:07 PM

i just played with 540gr of 185 #3 steel in a 2 3/4" hull with 2 different wads i have on hand. the 1 1/4oz is not a problem, it will fold crimp with the MM1275 wad. with 1400fps as a goal it would be just picking the correct hull to get it done. i'll bet that with the lbc43 wad you can find a 1 3/16oz book load at 1525fps using steel powder if you look, fold crimp.

Chesapeake · 01-27-2009, 10:20 AM

Baltz,

What hulls are you loading?

I remeber you asking for hulls in the past. I just sorted through the mess of reloading stuff I got from my brother.

I've got a bunch of short brass 2 3/4" Federal once fired hulls. There is a bunch more hulls, but thier just a hodge podge. I havent sorted them yet.
I have a bag of MEC 3" and a bag of MEC 2 3/4" steel wads. Several different bags of 2 3/4" lead wads. About 20# of steel #1 and 10# of steel BB. Several bags of over shot cards.

The press works great. It took me a minute or two for it all to come back, but I deprimed, primmed, and crimped a few hulls just to test the operation of the press. It needs cleaned and lubed, and Ill get the 3 1/2" kit, then it will be ready to rock and roll.

I plan to thin out the hodgepodge of components and get down to those I intend to use, and can find supplies of.

Earlier when I asked "where you get your supplies", I wasnt asking about your cost per load. I was looking for a place to get components. Care to share your source?

baltz526 · 01-27-2009, 12:20 PM

midway, ballistic products are the 2 internet suppliers i use. in the future most items will come from ballistic products. the best hulls are high base straitwall hulls. fiocchi, federal gold metal, remington yellow and black base wad, cheddite. the federal paper base is a good hull, BUT you have to closely inspect every hull for deteration of base wad or swelling from moisture. when using low brass hulls, i have had stuck hulls on high pressure loads. low brass hulls to me are under 9000psi hulls

Chesapeake · 01-27-2009, 03:47 PM

How many times do you reload your hulls?

I have a bunch of 3" tall base hulls, but there mixed brands so I will need to sort them out.

I have a bunch of factory Kent and Winchester shells I still need to fire.

Its starting to look like it would be easeir to just buy a case or two of cases and load and shoot them. If I bought enough for a season and kept and took care of the empties I should be able to get a few years out of them.

No wander everyone just buys factory shells. When we originaly loaded it was because factory shells were slow. Now that factory shells are fast it doesnt seem worth it realy. Unless you realy want a 1700 fps light load or something.

Hunt'nFish · 01-27-2009, 04:08 PM

I don't know Rick, pressure specs for the 2-3/4" and 3" are still what they were way back when.
With todays metal technology, handloaders don't need to be quite so limiting today in modern guns.

Baltz and Quack Attack have shown me some merits to reloading 2-3/4" & 3" shells.
It seems it IS possible to up the performance of these shorter shells.....and save a little at the same time. Minus your time mind you. But handloading isn't always about the $$$....or the time.....but rather up'n the performance.
And their IS something to be said for shooting ducks w/ loads you created.
The down side......you'll have a harder time blaming the misses on the shells.

Hunt'nFish

Chesapeake · 01-27-2009, 04:44 PM

Yes Alliant lists loads with Steel powder up to 1700 fps with 2 3/4" hulls. They just drop the load down to 7/8th oz.

I'm more interested in saving a buck than I am in making some exotic load. If I could produce a good performing load for $5 a box less than factory and have fun doing it, I'll be happy.

baltz526 · 01-27-2009, 05:25 PM

most 3" hulls have good loads in 1 1/8oz, but 1 1/4 oz loads are fewer. wads are always the problem. the best loads are with the expensive wads. my favorite 3" load is in a remington sportsmen yellow base wad hull 540gr of #1 steel, at 1450fps. but it is a HIGH pressure load and it is brutal to shoot. if you pick the right hulls/wads there are better choices and lots of data published. for the heavier payloads i just shoot my 10ga gold. it is a lot less brutal, faster with better patterns. and i save lots of money reloading for it.

nevermiss · 01-27-2009, 05:57 PM

FWIW I always did best using a 3" #4 Hevishot shell--ducks, natch, but some upland, too. Killed like gangbusters, VERY few cripples.

Tar Heel · 01-27-2009, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nevermiss

FWIW I always did best using a 3" #4 Hevishot shell--ducks, natch, but some upland, too. Killed like gangbusters, VERY few cripples.

Me too!! Or even 2 3/4" hevi will do the trick for most critters.

baltz526 · 01-27-2009, 06:19 PM

just send money, i'll gladly shoot your shells.

Flying Roast Beef · 01-28-2009, 08:40 PM

nice topic. Back in the days of lead we killed everything with reloaded 7.5's. We loaded them pretty hot and got some funny looks on the sporting clays range when we killed the clays way out but those loads were deadly on everything from doves to geese (decoyed of course).

Chesapeake · 01-29-2009, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying Roast Beef

nice topic. Back in the days of lead we killed everything with reloaded 7.5's. We loaded them pretty hot and got some funny looks on the sporting clays range when we killed the clays way out but those loads were deadly on everything from doves to geese (decoyed of course).

Imagine trying to pick all them pellets out of a bird!

I tend toward larger shot just so its easy to find in the meat.

baltz526 · 01-29-2009, 01:23 PM

this is a very important consideration on choosing steel shot size for my reloading. my teeth are very expensive to fix. and #3 steel is the smallest shot i think is truely effective.

GreatWhiteHunter · 01-29-2009, 02:23 PM

I've used Kent 3" #3's for ducks, pheasant, and chukar...my favorite factory loads by far and if I had to choose one load, that'd be it...haven't shot many of the 2.75" version...I can shoot 3" so I do.

El Wacko.

baltz526 · 01-29-2009, 04:00 PM

the difference between 1 1/8oz of #3 steel and 1 1/16oz is about 9 pellets or 160 pellets/169 pellets. 1 oz is 150 #3 steel. at least with the batch i'm using.

baltz526 · 01-30-2009, 03:52 PM

i cronographed my first attempt today. 5 shot average was 1615fps in rio green highbase hulls. 2 remington yellow base wad hulls was 1572fps. a little more adjusting and the rio hull load will be done. i'll try another recipe with the fiocchi 616 primer or rio 209 if i can find them. the cci209 are just to loose, 2 hulls had very minor gas escape at primer

Stu · 01-30-2009, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baltz526

i cronographed my first attempt today. 5 shot average was 1615fps in rio green highbase hulls. 2 remington yellow base wad hulls was 1572fps. a little more adjusting and the rio hull load will be done. i'll try another recipe with the fiocchi 616 primer or rio 209 if i can find them. the cci209 are just to loose, 2 hulls had very minor gas escape at primer

I like your choice of #3 steel for an all around shot size, not sure about what hull, powder, weight combo would be best. I used to shoot 11/4oz #sixes for everything. What is the pellet count dif. between 1 1/6 #3 steel & 1 1/4 oz #6 lead?

baltz526 · 01-30-2009, 08:59 PM

1 1/4oz of hard 6's is about 277 pellets. the closest you can get for pellet count is 7/8 oz of hard lead 5's is 149 pellets 1oz of steel 3's is 150. a steel 3 weights 2.95gr a lead 5 weights 2.6gr. what i'm going to end up with is a 12ga 2 3/4" 1oz steel #3 load that is equal to a 7/8oz 20ga 2 3/4" #5 load.

Stu · 01-31-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baltz526

1 1/4oz of hard 6's is about 277 pellets. the closest you can get for pellet count is 7/8 oz of hard lead 5's is 149 pellets 1oz of steel 3's is 150. a steel 3 weights 2.95gr a lead 5 weights 2.6gr. what i'm going to end up with is a 12ga 2 3/4" 1oz steel #3 load that is equal to a 7/8oz 20ga 2 3/4" #5 load.

Sounds likr you have done your homework and come up with a great load, hope it patterns well in your gun.

rimrock · 01-31-2009, 09:16 AM

1600fps is pretty sweet...nice work on the loads. Do ya want to sell some

baltz526 · 01-31-2009, 10:04 AM

sell some, AHHHHH no. but when i get the load to my liking, i may share the recipe. with the disclaimer of: you need to pressure test before being silly enough to use it. i might get it pressure tested, but the load data i'm using is pretty mild in the hull it is ment for. fiocchi/cheddite/multihull

BrotherWolf · 01-31-2009, 01:20 PM

after reading all of this Im very interested in maybe to start reloading...whats a good set up to get for reloading?

baltz526 · 01-31-2009, 05:15 PM

since i use a powder measure and small rifle primer plates to count steel pellets i'm using an old (not great or highbase hulls) 12ga mec 600jr. and a sizemaster sizer and 10g mec steelmaster. i do not use the shot or powder bottles. if you bought a mec sizemaster or steelmaster they have a built in collet sizer. probably the best basic presses you can get for starting.

Tar Heel · 01-31-2009, 06:14 PM

Baltz, or anyone. I bought 2 boxes of 3.5" Hevi Steel 6's, cuz that was all they had when i was shopping, but didn't end up shooting them. Wondering if they are just too small to be effective. I don't know how hevi steel translates to plain ol steel. Is it a gimmic, will #6's in a 3.5" do the trick on big ducks, or should i just save them for water swatting?
My preferred shot is hevi shot 4's in 3" or 2&3/4".

baltz526 · 01-31-2009, 06:23 PM

i would use them on ducks, but as a big water swatter load they would be perfect.

baltz526 · 02-26-2009, 04:01 PM

my shell is finished, and will be doing further testing for pattern/velocity soon. next year i'll use it as much as possible for birds. i'm out of steel powder and there is not any locally. hopefully the shelves will get stocked again soon.

baltz526 · 11-28-2009, 05:31 PM

re upping this thread. some things i have learned, 1 1/8 oz of steel #3's has the same basic pellet count as a 1 1/4oz load of #4 lead. if you launch the steel #3 at 200fps faster it has equal energy at 50yds as a #4 lead pellet. comparing a 1250fps #4 lead 1 1/4oz load, to a 1450fps steel #3 1 1/8oz load is a resonable comparison out to 50yds. I bought 500 lbc43 wads to make 1 1/8oz 2 3/4" 12ga loads. It fits better and without wad trimming. BPI has a few loads listed in #13 revised status of steel and i have been testing a few. Very tight patterns good velocity, might have use skeet choke to get modified patterns it looks like. Wads come unslit, so i'm putting 4 90% cuts in them.

Dan360 · 11-28-2009, 06:17 PM

I wish I could do something like this for my shotguns. I float between 2 3/4 #7 1/2 low-base for clays and quail/partridge/grouse to 2 3/4 #6 high-base for pheasant/chuckars/coons/cats. This requires taking the fore-end off and turning the gas ring thingys around. Its a pain. I should pony up and get that Ruger Red Label I've always wanted....

baltz526 · 11-28-2009, 08:00 PM

Eventually we will all be shooting steel for everything. if the trends continue across the country. Might as well be ahead of the wave

baltz526 · 11-30-2009, 04:30 PM

PS: i was told by a person that multihulls/cheddites/reo with 4 stars and 4 12ga's on base are all the same. 2 stars-2 12ga's = fiocchi. Using same data. My 12ga 2 3/4" load is done. multihull/cheddite/reo high brass hull, primer CX2000/CCI209/reo209, LBC43 wad, 1 1/8oz steel #3's, 3x.x grains steel powder. 2.5gr less steel powder than SofS #12 lists, gives me book velocity over my cronograph. 1475fps. Chukar testing soon.