I need a dog evaluation, any recomendations???

BerettaMan · 01-21-2009, 10:26 AM

My 1 1/2 year old lab is giving me fits. I had some help training her and got through her force fetch and some blinds. The problem is, I think the handler (trainer) was to hard with the E collar and has made her timid. She will bolt for a hand dropped dummy or hand dropped dead bird. When I shoot a duck or goose she seems unsure, half way to the bird she stops, turns, and looks at me for support. Clean killed birds in plain sight are usually not a problem. With several commands she does retrieve most birds but it is very annoying. This has gone on all season long with well over 50 retrieves and she still seems confused. She is extremly birdy, that is not the problem. Has anyone else seen this problem? I would like to take her to a new trainer for evaluation. Does anyone have a real solid trainer in the Portland or S.I. area that they would recommend?

thanks, Jeff

Threemuch · 01-21-2009, 11:30 AM

I would recommend Robin Rawls of Wetland Retrievers. He trains out at Sauvie on the WMA, and I really liked his style and advice when I had troubles with Lucy. His focus is really on you and the dog having fun, and I bet he could set you and your pup straight quickly. He does private sessions 1 on 1 for like 25 bucks an hour, sort of a train the trainer type thing. He had me set on the right path in 3 separate sessions.

I had a similar situation, I put too much pressure and correction on a dog that was not ready for it and unsure of me and her surroundings and she was timid. We went all the way back to simple hold commands, and lots of fun retrieves with live and dead birds, and she snapped right back into it.

I am no expert, but it sounds like you need to shoot some birds for the dog in a very controlled setting, rather than on a hunt, and where you can praise the dog up for every right move, instead of barking commands and forcing the retrieve.

Hunt'nFish · 01-21-2009, 02:22 PM

How many hunts on her so far?

Might be a "too much help" issue. She's looking for direction because she's been given that direction. Maybe.
It's not nessessarily a bad thing, mine was that way early on and he never had an e-collar put on him until season 2, when he started developing a few bad habits like bolting before we shot. (Knucklehead. gotta wait for us to kill'em FIRST dummy.)
Give her time and keep hunt'n her, by season 2 she'll have it all figured and start to figure she doesn't even need you.....or need to listen.
The perfect dog is somewhere in between that and where you are now.

Relax, don't frette about it. Keep incouraging her, but maintain your control. "Sit" means SIT, "back" means BACK, and "over" means OVER....not ignore me & do your own thing. Relax, but maintain her trust in you on the commands. Remember your a team. She's there to help you and your there to help her.
Also give big KUDO's on the retrieves, they live for this stuff. Build the drive in her.

Awesome looking dog BTW. Nice build.
Hunt'nFish

rimrock · 01-21-2009, 02:28 PM

Sounds like the trainer didn't fully finish the FF process. When done completely a dog is bold and confident, go only 95% of the way and you have a confused dog.

A firsthand evaluation by another trainer is an excellent idea. SI Kennels is excellent, Tim is a fine trainer...but I'm not sure if he does Labs. A phone call wouldn't hurt though.

James in Idaho · 01-21-2009, 02:31 PM

She's "popping", which is considered a serious fault in the hunt test and field trial games. Good news is that it is not uncommon in an 18 month old puppy. Best fix is lots of single marks to build up her confidence. She's looking to you for help and you're reinforcing that. When training have your bird thrower help if you see that she's getting ready to pop (radios help). Don't reinforce her popping, you should stay still and quiet when she pops, just wait her out. Don't be afraid to go long on your marks as she builds confidence, like 300 yards. Any dog that can do long marks in training can do just about any hunting mark. If you see that she is unsure as you finish this season, run it as a blind. Oh yeah, if she's really birdy live birds in training will be a great reward. Some dogs really, really like fetching Banty roosters, gets 'em pretty pumped up.

BerettaMan · 01-21-2009, 06:48 PM

Guys, thanks much for all the good thoughts and info. I'm glad to see that nobody said get a new dog. I love this dog and will stick with her no matter what.
To address some of the responses, she is great making hand thrown retrieves. I use dead ducks and send her on blind after blind out to 80 yrds in hilly terrian. She always runs hard until she finds the bird and brings it right to me, she knows exactly what to do. When shooting birds she will sometimes make it to the bird and then turn back and look with out grabbing the bird ( this usually happens if the bird is still moving). When she does this I will command fetch several times and she gets the bird and finishes the retrieve. Once the bird in in her mouth there is no problem, she always finishes to the hand. At this time she has been on 25 plus hunts and is getting slightly better.

Thanks again for all the good ideas

Wingmaster · 01-21-2009, 06:53 PM

Get a hold of Robin, he's a great trainer!

llama77 · 01-21-2009, 08:30 PM

Get a new dog ! Just kidding!!!!

Im with rimrock a little on this. If the dog is standing over the bird, you should only have to say "fetch" once. If the dog doesnt pick up the bird after one "fetch" It needs a little "fetch" refresher.

There are some drills you can do also to get them to pick it up and bring it back quickly, but you really need to get a visual second opinion.

steelheadslayer · 01-21-2009, 09:05 PM

Sounds like she just needs confidence in downed birds. Dead birds she knows, live ones are confusing to her. When she looks back don't necessarily command anything, just encourage her with, go on, get it, Good girl get it, whatever with an excited happy voice, the confidence will come.

On blinds and marks, change the length all the time. If she stops at one distance all the time, she'll stop there ALL the time. Change it up and she'll figure out to go straight line until she's stopped by you to hunt it up or scents it and finds it herself.

It's really difficult to give good advice without seeing what exactly she does in certain situations. There are some good trainers around, I just don't have personal knowledge with many. Butch Higgins at Parkdale in Rainier I've known for a long time and he's pretty dang good. I've heard great things about Robin Rawls too.

Hawaiian Time · 01-21-2009, 09:13 PM

I think that James in Idaho's advice is a sound one. By hand thrown birds, do you mean someone's out in the field tossing birds for you at different distances or do you mean you as the handler tossing birds for your dog which is at your side? If that's the case, I can see a dog being comfortable at the distance that is only as far as you can toss a bumper or bird when he is at your side. What could be happening is that the distance of the marked retrieve may be out of his comfort zone. In other words, he developes a memory of what distance he is confident at and when he gets farther out, his momentum starts to slow until he finally stops and looks back at you for help. In Jr. Hunt tests, you can tell the dogs that have been trained on handler thrown birds or bumpers as they go out about 30 yards and pull up short to hunt. I would get a partner to toss marks for you and have him increase the distance slowly. Have the helper carry several birds or bumpers with him and if the dogs starts to lose momentum on the retrieve, have him toss another to keep the dog driving to the retrieve. This will also prevent you from handling the dog to the mark should he pull up short. You will find that it usually only takes a few sessions of this to get the dogs confidence up. I think that teaching a dog to handle too early, leads to the dog having a lack of confidence to hunt it up on it's own. He's turning and looking at you for help because he knows that's exactly what you will do. Robin Rawls was part of our training group before he turned pro and I am sure he can help you solve the problem if that's the route you want to take. HT

Tilla · 01-21-2009, 11:51 PM

Train for success!
Leave it to James from Idaho to bring up 300 yds!

Now HT knows why pros hate that little 25 yd memory plopper bird.

Hawaiian Time · 01-22-2009, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tilla

Train for success!
Leave it to James from Idaho to bring up 300 yds!

Now HT knows why pros hate that little 25 yd memory plopper bird.

Exactly!

James in Idaho · 01-22-2009, 12:15 PM

Lot's of what you're describing are just puppy traits, she is still a pup at 18 months. In my experiance, lots of hunting "marks" are really blind retrieves. How's her attitude on blinds? Is she pretty confident or is she showing the same tendency to pop? Too many blinds with a young dog (all blinds represent pressure) can also cause popping. Your season will be over soon, relax and look forward to the off season to re-train. Dogs can unlearn an awlful lot during hunting season!

Start with short blinds and shortish marks (50, 75 yards) with big visiable bumpers to build her back up. She'll mature and this issue should go away. She's not going into season is she? That can really mess with them too.

With the standing over the bird, that sounds like she needs a refresher course on her force pile work. You're learning one of the pitfalls of having someone else force fetch your dog, you're not really sure what has been done.

Don't believe Tilla, heck I'll bet his dogs will do 300 yard marks and those little blooper marks all the same!!!

Even my 4 month old pup does 50 yard marks, now getting him to come back, well let's just say I've got my work cut out for me.

edit: If you're nice to Tilla, he might just let you know when the retriever club picnics are. Even if you don't want to play the games, it would be a good place to meet folks and get some help. Fixing problems over the internet doesn't compare to face to face.

BerettaMan · 01-22-2009, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Threemuch

I would recommend Robin Rawls of Wetland Retrievers. He trains out at Sauvie on the WMA, and I really liked his style and advice when I had troubles with Lucy. His focus is really on you and the dog having fun, and I bet he could set you and your pup straight quickly. He does private sessions 1 on 1 for like 25 bucks an hour, sort of a train the trainer type thing. He had me set on the right path in 3 separate sessions.

I had a similar situation, I put too much pressure and correction on a dog that was not ready for it and unsure of me and her surroundings and she was timid. We went all the way back to simple hold commands, and lots of fun retrieves with live and dead birds, and she snapped right back into it.

I am no expert, but it sounds like you need to shoot some birds for the dog in a very controlled setting, rather than on a hunt, and where you can praise the dog up for every right move, instead of barking commands and forcing the retrieve.

Thanks for the info, I talked with Robin and we are getting together next week

BerettaMan · 01-22-2009, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James in Idaho

Lot's of what you're describing are just puppy traits, she is still a pup at 18 months. In my experiance, lots of hunting "marks" are really blind retrieves. How's her attitude on blinds? Is she pretty confident or is she showing the same tendency to pop? Too many blinds with a young dog (all blinds represent pressure) can also cause popping. .

What exactly does "popping" mean?

If she is in the field training she shows no hesitation and is very confident. I think the tough hunts on S.I. have got her in a timid and unsure state of mind. I am hoping that after a summer of training with live birds in and out of water she will get over some of these issues, I am crossing my fingers. Thanks again for all the good info and support.

James in Idaho · 01-22-2009, 03:03 PM

Opps, sorry. Popping is stopping on its own and looking back to the handler. Field trial/hunt test term.

Tilla · 01-22-2009, 06:58 PM

aka: lack of perserverance

Robin is a good guy.

5 Salt · 01-23-2009, 07:11 PM

Robin Rawls is your guy - love what he has done with my boy and he big on positive/motivating training.

Popping:
Popping is more of a handler cause problem than a lack of perseverance issue in my mind - often we help the dog too much out of a lack of patience/training time. Let them hunt the mark and give them lots of marks to improve ability to measure distance to begin hunting the drop zone iso hunting short. As dog improves technique the confidence grows rapidly.

Handler Patience/Training Time:
As to handler patience, I think many of us armature trainers have limited time to train so we tend to move the dog to tougher marks/blinds before we've built the proper foundation to support the more complex work. Robin will get you dog working a bunch and everyday. Often times, the first time on the line the dog stumbles a bit and nails it second time that day due to time spent in dog truck chewing over the earlier work. With a pro like Robin, your dog will work 3x a day on same skill. I really like how Robin re-runs your dog on the exact same mark/skill to etch the skill firmly in your dog's mind - a real confidence builder.

How long with a Pro:
Give Robin minimum two months to get your dog in track...first 2-3weeks are a wash while the dog ramps up working/learning everyday. By the forth week your dog's mind is in high gear and the learning really takes off. In the 2nd-3rd month, your dog grows in leaps and bounds as all previous bad habits, short sided/missing training, and out of correct progression training having been overcome/corrected.

Personal Experience with Pro's:
As measure of how long to get you dog to a point, my boy come from FC/MH pedigree with his brothers and sisters all earning their MH (Master Hunter cert) by 16-18th months old - excellent dogs. My dog has had 7months of pro training and is excellent marker with tripples out to 200-250 yard and quads in the spread. He’ll take blinds out to 250-300yards on familiar ground. On new grounds he tends to begin running offline or pulling up to hunt at about 150-175yards. He's rock-solid steady in the blind now in his 3rd season with zero breaks for 36hunts so far this season.

Butch Higgins (Parkdale Kennels) did his first 5months getting a completely un-trained dog, taking him through force fetch, all land and water marks, force to a pile, all hand signals and preliminary blind work.
Robin Rawls (Wetland Retrievers) 18moths later, expanded his blind work and really got him handling rock solid on long blinds. Both are top trainers in the NW and the only reason I did not return to Butch was that I started Travelling/Kenneling the dog a lot and Robin's location saved me 2hours of driving each time kenneled the dog. From there Robin and I built a relationship.

I turned to Robin for training after helping him train 3-4times and realizing that there was no way I was going to get my dog to next level without a pro-trainer – I lacked the time and manpower/helpers to complete the work, assuming I even had the ability/skills. Likely my dog will need another 6-7-8 months to get him through Master Hunter. I will however, forgo any more pro-training I until I get another dog as my boy is an excellent hunting dog and the money I would spend to make him a viable stud candidate would likely not come back to me.

Next dog will be a female and definitely will get the full pro-training investment.