What do you think...good or bad idea?

Lady West · 09-10-2003, 08:35 AM

I would like your views and opinions regarding the possible enactment of a new law I would like to propose that would require the wearing of PFD's (lifejackets) when crossing any bar (ie. from river to ocean) or navigating costal waters.

In 2001, 498 boaters drowned. Lifejackets could have saved the lives of approximately 420 boaters who drowned. In 2001 aproximately 8 out of every 10 victims in fatal boating accidents were not wearing lifejackets.

Once you have lost a loved one to drowing, it really makes the numbers seem astronomical.

I just lost my Father to drowning and I am so angry that he wasn't wearing a lifejacket. If it had been a law, he would most likely still be here today.

http://www.ifish.net/cgi-local/ultim...c&f=1&t=028049

skein · 09-10-2003, 08:58 AM

LadyWest,

It's already a law on my boat.

With the new SOS-type suspender PFD's, you
quickly forget that you even have them on.

And I am so, so sorry to hear about your dad. My
thoughts go out to you and your family.

Skein

Badger · 09-10-2003, 09:14 AM

Go for it. I put on one every time and don't have a problem with it. Sorta surprised it hasn't become law yet, just a matter of time I guess.

My sincere regrets about your Dad, perhaps your loss and "Dan's Law" will save many other lives in the future.

fish assassin · 09-10-2003, 09:20 AM

I am so sorry to hear about your father.

My father also drowned in a boating accident. He also was not wearing
a life jacket. Would it have saved his life ... probably not because he
got tangled in the troll wires and was held under for too long ...

I personally do NOT want to see any more laws enacted that will force me to
do *anything* because somebody else thinks it's a good idea or that I am too
stupid to know when I need to do something for safteys sake.

Several years ago there was a mother that lost two sons in a commercial fishing
accident in Alaska. Because of her valiant efforts to regulate saftey
equiptment on commercial boats I now have to carry a lot of expensive saftey
gear that is of questionable use should I have problems on my little vessel.

In my opinion (be it ever so humble), I think that you should drop trying to
make this a mandatory thing.

Thanks for asking ...

-assAssin-

corrirod · 09-10-2003, 09:28 AM

:depressed: I'm so sorry for your loss.

I'm in favor of a law for bar crossings and ocean travel for boats less than 60 ft. in length.

Many will argue that it infringes on our rights as individuals, but from the perspective of a loved one, the infringement is a small price to pay. :depressed:

Phil Layer · 09-10-2003, 09:36 AM

I would support a law requiring all clients on a charter boat to wear a life jacket when crossing a bar. I don't support the idea of more laws but I feel this is a situation where many charter boat clients just don't have the knowledge of the danger involved...that is why they are paying a charter rather than renting a boat and going out on their own.

The charter captains want happy clients and I don't believe they will require them to don a PFD unless it is a law.

All other (non charter) boats should not be required to wear PFD's when crossing a bar, in my opinion. We don't need more laws and more law enforcement efforts.

I personally wear a life jacket whenever I am on board my boat. I don't require adults to do so although I do offer them a comfortable option when they board. If they are experienced ocean going boaters and choose not to wear one, I don't argue. If they are not experienced, I educate them on the dangers and highly recommend they wear one. Anyone under 18 has to wear one.

I am very sorry to hear of your loss. I applaud you on your activism and desire to turn this tragedy into something good.

[ 09-10-2003, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Phil Layer ]

edsr · 09-10-2003, 09:54 AM

Lady West,

I am sorry for your loss, but I respectfully disagree with your idea of additional mandatory laws which govern the operation of my boat.

There are sufficient and applicable laws already in place.

edsr

id. painter · 09-10-2003, 09:59 AM

Personally ,I wear a life jacket when im out in a boat. My crew wears P.F.D's,,,as well .
When i was about 18 years old and learning to fish the Clearwater river for winter Steelhead we were using a 14 ft. sears boat ,,, it was very narrow and unstable. I read a statistic that stuck in my brain for ever.
There has never been a death by drounding on the Clearwater by someone who was wearing a P.F.D.
Pretty cheep insurance. But please no more laws to make me take care of my self.
I am very sorry for the loss of your father.
id.painter

Zippy · 09-10-2003, 10:18 AM

Sorry for your Loss. If the idea of a mandatory law doesn't gain enough support. perhaps you could look into doing or participating in a Public Service Announcement with a Co sponsoring agency like the Coast Guard Auxillary or others.I know that I now require all guests on My boat to wear them while we are underway.

Albacore Tuna Captain · 09-10-2003, 10:21 AM

Lady West,

It is a terrible thing to lose a love one due to the lack of using a safety device that was readily available. The reaction to any tragedy is always to try and force other people to do what they should have done anyway by making it a law to use it.

We have laws against speeding because it is a proven fact that speed kills. That doesn't stop the speeder.

We have laws against shooting someone because bullets kill. That doesn't stop the murderer.

We have laws requiring that we wear seat belts and yet that law is ignored or someone will wear the device in a manner that is unsafe.

Education and common sense is what needs to be applied to the question whether a person should wear a PFD or not.

There are times when a PFD should be worn, and times they are not required. Who is to be the judge? Big Brother? You? Them?

I don't need a law forcing me to have my passengers put on a PFD. I know when to cross and when not to cross a bad bar. If I feel the bar is dangerous, I will have my passengers put them on. I don't need a law to exercise common sense. Many of my passengers will request a PFD when they come aboard. That is their right to put one on and I have no problems with that.

To make another unenforcible law to force others to apply common sense is not the answer. Education of the public would be helpful and the captains of any boat should have the knowledge and common sense already.

Again, I'm truly sorry for your loss. I think you efforts would have a lot of support but also meet with a lot of resistence.

Captain Mike

Doryfisher · 09-10-2003, 10:29 AM

Todays society is too over regulated already. Laws will not stop people from breaking them,common sense laws only make things more expensive for the one's who follow them.

It is not the government's job to protect people from making bad judgements.

I am sorry for the losses of all lives at sea, just as I am sorry for all those people killed in car wrecks from not wearing seat belts, which is by the way, "A Law"

jacksalmon · 09-10-2003, 10:58 AM

I, like others here, am sorry for your loss. But, it should up to an individual whether to wear a lifejacket when crossing the bar. We do not need more laws regulating us as we recreate. Remember we are doing it to recreate and that experience gets ruined by too many laws. Sure it would be a good idea for children under 14 or whatever, but for an adult, leave it up to the individual.

Bait O' Eggs · 09-10-2003, 12:24 PM

Sorry about your loved one, :depressed:

I dont need to be made into an outlaw because I choose to not wear a lifejacket at times. I am already required to have one on board because somebody else died and their loved ones got a law passed. Dont make me have to wear it when on the water because your loved one died. Let me make my own decesions, I dont need a law to tell me when to wear a lifejacket. I will take my chances when I choose to.

DriftR · 09-10-2003, 12:49 PM

Sorry about the loss of your father.
Better education by means of public service messages on radio and tv should be made. More rules, regulations and laws on the books just create more problems. No matter what actions are taken accidents will happen. Sad but true. My kids grew up wearing seatbelts and never do I see them not use them now as adults. They grew up wearing life jackets whenever they were around water or in a boat. They still adhere to that rule as adults. I have the inflating sospenders but only wear them in warm weather. Other times I wear a Mustang Survival coat. I have a full Mustang survival suit that I take on all my offshore fishing. As accidents happen I may not get to the survival suit quick enough to don it but at least the survival coat will aid in my rescue. I always recommend that everyone in my boat wears a PDF. Some refuse some comply. But my family members never think twice about putting one on, it's automatic. Like putting on your seatbelt.

kamloops · 09-10-2003, 01:38 PM

There is one thing that every mortal Human Being
can look forward to in this lifetime.
Some people just plain speed up the process, some are lucky or have higher beings looking out for their souls, some people Smoke, Drink or take drugs etc..
I admit, as would most people to the 1st two, drinking and smoking that is. Some people would argue that I am nuts to smoke or enjoy a drink now and then. I admit that doing any of these things could speed up your time on this planet.
If I was a crabber in the North Pacific that would be pretty damgerous also.
I think the fact of just being around water either on a boat or on shore elevates your risk
of drowning. If wearing a life jacket was mandatory and I could risk getting a ticket than boating would cease to be fun. If I want to speed up my time than that should be my decision
not the government.

I think if truth were to be known about these "legislate Everyting Dangerous" people, they also legislate us out of our cars, boats
bicycles, sleds and anything else they could think of. Would our right to fish and hunt and own firearms be far behind?

FISHNAKED · 09-10-2003, 02:22 PM

I too feel for your loss.

While I agree some what ( i wear my pfd when crossing the bar ). I don't think it should be made a law. There are enough laws protecting us from ourselves. I don't think we need any moore.

Burner · 09-10-2003, 02:51 PM

I'm very sorry for your loss. I'm not sure of my feelings for a law regarding lifejackets, but I do have a rule on my boat that everyone wears one. This rule was put in place the same day the accident you refer to occurred. The personal responsibility when running a boat is immense. As the vessel operator, I have to bring everyone home intact, including myself. So law or no law, please wear your PFD. It might save your family and friends a lot of grief.

James

Hellibut · 09-10-2003, 02:58 PM

Sorry to hear of your loss. I know the feeling.
I always wear a Life Jacket when crossing the bar and only on exceptional days do I ever remove it. The word to my crew is this: If you fall overboard there�s a real good chance your going to drown if your not wearing a PFD. Your choice, wear it or don�t. Most of the time they buckle up. The exception to this is children (and I put no age limit on this) wear it or don�t go. Not to rag on the charters but I always felt that the PFD talk was a joke and made one feel like a wimp if they took one. One would think it would be common sense to seriously inform folks of the risk of not wearing a PFD, especially crossing the bar.
With that said I'm not in favor of this being a law. It's a little like smoking, drinking, wearing a helmet etc etc. If one know the risks and is willing to take them they have the right to do so.
Again, sorry for your loss.

Old Coot · 09-10-2003, 03:56 PM

First, my sincere condolences on your, and your family's loss. My experience is that time will dull the sharp edge of your pain.

I really don't like the idea of more laws dictating what we must do for our own good. But, look around you the next time you are on the water. Take a census of how many people are wearing PFD's versus those not. Everybody thinks that because they are standing in a little box of dry floating in a vast reach of wet they are safe and invulnerable. Now factor in the number of drunks or otherwise impaired people out there.

What percentage have ever had to remove their clothing while treading 54 degree water? Take off their boots while swimming? Keep track of their kids in the water? Oregon is a cold water state. A good swimmer is in trouble in minutes because of hypothermia. A poor swimmer is doomed from the time the boat dumps.

PFD's extend life expectancy, pure and simple. Nobody ever expects to drown today. I know that neither of the two drowned individuals I attemted to resuscitate thru mouth-to-mouth did. Neither did the driftboater whose body I saw removed 3 months after he went down.

I have to vote in favor of a law. Common sense isn't sufficient; far too many people don't have it. "Live Free or Die" is Vermont's slogan, not Oregon's.

Gotta vote for the law.

[ 09-10-2003, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Old Coot ]

Bobber Down · 09-10-2003, 06:32 PM

Lady West, I feel your pain for the loss of your father, it sounds as though he liked the water like myself. My father also has passed away and he was a Marine Safty Officer for the Oregon State Marine Board. I feel that there are enough laws in this country (kids don't need to wear sealtbelts when riding on school buses). I feel that it should be up to each person onboard to put on a PFD as needed, like as stated above " common sense". I wear one myself when I feel that it's needed, you know the old saying "there a time and a place for everything"........Bobber Down

Thumper · 09-10-2003, 06:58 PM

Corrirod and Old Coot make a lot of sense. I am a very conservative republican and am not the slightest bit interested in promoting additional curbs on anybody's freedoms. But until there is a law that mandates PFDs on bars and while in the ocean on small craft, the clients of guides and charter boats will not wear them, mainly since the guides and skippers themselves rarely wear them.

There is no significant difference in my mind between a helmet law, a seat belt law, or a PFD law. Society has determined that under some circumstances we all have to put up with a little inconvenience for the common good. If I choose not to wear a seat belt (PFD, helmet, etc.) and end up on life support for a month or two, all of society pays the bill. So this is not just a matter of personal freedom, it is also a matter on infringing on the economic welfare of others in society.

I would support mandatory use of PFDs under certain circumstances, and that would include activities on our bars and while boating aboard small craft in the ocean.

corrirod · 09-10-2003, 07:40 PM

Mark(Fish Assassin),

I'd be interested to find out what your son's thoughts are, and any of his Coast Guard friends'thoughts were regarding this topic?

I wonder if anyone has done a study to find out how much money it costs us to search for 3-5 days for people without PFD's? What does a search normally cost per day?

Has there ever been a CG'sman that lost his/her life while trying to save someone without a PFD?

Have there been any civilians that lost their life while trying to help someone?

I haven't done any research on the above questions but I'd be interested if anyone has.

Lady West, unfortunately you've come to the wrong forum to acquire approval of a new law. To ask the fisherman himself is like asking an alcoholic if he would approve a ban on alcohol. A few might say yes but the majority will not.

Perhaps there is a way to get the message out to the families of these fisherman? Perhaps they, the families, can help to mandate the wearing of PFD's? I wish I had better answers to these questions but I do not.

I would say your best bet is to work with the Coast Guard to find the necessary ammo to make this happen. Good luck with your quest and you have 2 votes from this household in your favor.

fish assassin · 09-11-2003, 05:03 AM

Rod,

Funny you should ask. The guys and gals in the CG don't wear life vests when
they go out on SAR (search and rescue) missions. They wear Mustang work suits.

However, when they are being "private" boaters it has been my experience that
they are just like everybody else ... some wear PFDs and some don't. I've had
several of the folks from up at Astoria fish with me or go whale watching with me
and they don't even ask where I keep my PFDs.

I don't know what that means, but it must mean *something*??? :grin: :grin:

I watched the commander(?) of Station Depoe Bay getting off one of the charter
boats after a TUNA! trip last Saturday and even HE wasn't wearing a PFD (or at least
I didn't see any evidence that he had been). I guess it's "do as I say, not as I do"??

EDIT: Don't get me wrong ... I think wearing a PFD is a GOOD idea, but I *think*
I have enough sense to know when *I* need to put one on and don't want to end up
with more regulations written that are over-generalized that are trying to protect
me from myself! (nice run-on sentence, huh?

)
-assAssin-

[ 09-11-2003, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: fish assassin ]

Hawg Caller · 09-11-2003, 07:34 AM

Lady west:
I agree that it is a good idea, but you cant make laws that will prevent stupidity, its been tried before. not sure what the correct thing to do is.
I dont think trying to pass new laws is the answer.Its an individual thing.
keep us posted.good luck

Phil Layer · 09-11-2003, 08:01 AM

Corrirod,

[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

CAPT KUJO · 09-11-2003, 08:12 AM

Well..I can tell you this.....If you really think a lifjacket will "save your life" ....then get real! It will increase the chances of finding your dead body! As standard operating procedure on the BLACK ROCKET, all passengers are required to be in full exposure dry suits zipped up with neck rings removed. If you go in the water you have 70lbs of additional buoyancy in conjuction with a PFD (22lbs of lift).

Think about this. When the Taki-Too went down there was a 47 foot Coast Guard Motorlife boat ON THE BAR and CG personell in the 'tower'. What could they do: NOTHING BUT WATCH! because the CG can't, and are not equipped to deal with ANY rescues in the surf zone except from the air. That takes a min of 45 min to be on station from Astoria or North Bend (depending on which way the wind blows).

Making a law to wear a PFD when crossing the bar is givng people a false sense of security. If you want to really be safe and really increase your safety margin during hazardous bar crossing, especially in smaller boats, then wear a wetsuit, or full dry suit. Your thought process then isn't "how long do I have to live" but rather "where's my next stop Coos Bay or SanFransico. Learn about COLD WATER SURVIVAL. PFDs are a VERY SMALL part of that.

CAPT KUJO

skein · 09-11-2003, 08:22 AM

You know, I can think of any number of times a guy could find himself in the water wishing he could float - and most of them are not at the bar.

Ever lost your balance gaffing or netting a fish and almost gone over? Ever been on or seen a boat where everyone was crowded to the fish side and the boat all heeled over waiting for that little wave-slap to finish the deal? Ever had that wave from nowhere surprise you and leave you thinking "what was that?" Ever stepped out on the swim platform to relieve yourself?

Have you ever thrown a fender or throwable overboard and time yourself to see how long it takes to get back around and get it picked up?

I wear my PFD all the time. I have bought SOS's for my passengers so they can wear PFD's in comfort. Cost? A difference of about $40 ea. Peace of mind? Priceless.

My 2 cents.

Skein

Fishplay · 09-11-2003, 08:27 AM

Lady West,

Sorry to hear of your loss. :depressed: I hope the healing comes quickly to you and your family.

I do not agree with any laws put in place for "public protection".

Seat belt, helmets, PFD's, .......where does it stop?

Most deaths occur outside the home. Maybe the government should mandate no one leave their home.

As far as Thumpers concerne "society pays the bill" in some cases that is true. However, there are many activities that cause injury.

Should we make it illegal to rock climb, skydive, bungee jump, bicycle, snow ski, the list could go on for ever.

As a kid I loved to climb trees. I later made a living climbing trees. Many kids and adults are killed or seriously injured every year due to falls from trees.

[img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]
Maybe we should outlaw some of these less purposefull dangerous activities because they cost society a lot of money also.

Bottom line:

I'm tired of well meaning people making the world safer for me.

Personal floatation devices should be a personal choice when on a personal watercraft.

outdoor.spec.ops · 09-11-2003, 08:40 AM

I enjoy fishing the bar for salmon, and am sorry for your loss. I also do not think that the law should be inplace. It should be my choice to do as I wish, regardless of the results. People hang themselves, do drugs, and all kinds of other foolish things, yet rope is still available to buy along with asprin and Tylenol. I wear my vest when I think the risks are there, and I take an asprin if I get a headache

I have never seen anyone walking across streets wearing helmets, although I am sure they would save SOME lives, especially in P-land.

[ 09-11-2003, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: outdoor.spec.ops ]

kamloops · 09-11-2003, 08:44 AM

Capt. Kujo

You'r right, I don't know where it would stop.
Helmets and Fall Protection Harness secured to the Taki Tooo may have saved some souls.
Had they been wearing Survival Suits and hit their heads who could have guarantied their survival.
Sounds like I had better change my line of work and become a trial lawyer. Glad I don't own a Life Preserver manufacturing plant.
My point to all this is simple, common sense and know your limitations.

Fishplay · 09-11-2003, 08:57 AM

Kujo, your assessment is right on. In many instances (I'm talking Pacific Ocean here) the life jacket will not save your life. It will only give you a little more time to think about your demise.

Skein, you too are right on. I was once washed out of my boat while untangling a rope from the prop. No jacket - at the mouth of the alsea - on an ebb tide. Valueble lesson learned!

I wear my life jacket when I feel I need to and I keep a throwable device handy. Inflatable SOS devices are great. Wearing one all the time is a good idea. But they have a failure rate also.

Is your inflatable providing you a false sense of security?

So, the question becomes who is safer?

When I have my standard CG approved device on, in conditions or situations where I deem it neccessary, I know it will not fail me should I need it.

I will not trust my life to an Inflatable!

Albacore Tuna Captain · 09-11-2003, 09:16 AM

There's that word, COMMON SENSE. If you are going to play in the surf, common sense says you should wear a PFD, helmet, survival suit, rope attaching you to shore, file a float plan, etc. etc. Or would all that depend on the condition of the surf?

How small should the boat be before we mandate the wearing of a PFD? Or should the determination be based on the number of lives lost per size of craft. In that case, any time you get on a cruise ship or ferry, you should be required to wear a PFD.

Point is, there is no way you can reasonalbly mandate the wearing of a PFD except anytime you are near the water. Then someone will ask, "Why am I not required to wear a parachute in an airplane?"

Children 12 and under are mandated to wear a PFD in Oregon anytime they are on a vessel that is not a Certified Inspected Vessel by the U.S. Coast Guard. An that's because they are deemed to not have common sense. Adults are suppose to have it.

THis is also why children are mandated to wear helmets when riding bikes.

The exercise of common sense is possible for some adults and not others. But it is not right to force something onto someone just because he has a neighbor who has no common sense.

Phil Layer · 09-11-2003, 09:20 AM

Denial is not a river in Africa.

Undeniably, lives would have been saved if the clients on the Taki-Too had been wearing lifejackets.

As Lady West noted, "In 2001, 498 boaters drowned. Lifejackets could have saved the lives of approximately 420 boaters who drowned. In 2001 aproximately 8 out of every 10 victims in fatal boating accidents were not wearing lifejackets."

There was a fellow on the boat Lady West's father was on. He wore a PFD and survived. Lady West's father did not wear one and didn't.

Wearing PFD's on bar crossings will save lives. Wearing PFD's whenever on the water will save more lives. This is not an issue for debate. The question is, should it be a law. I'm not in favor of that other than for unsuspecting, unknowing, uneducated individuals who put their lives in the hands of a Charter Captain who doesn't want to inconvenience his customers.

None of the charters required life jackets for the bar crossing on the day the Taki Too went down. They should have. And, if it had been a law, they would have and lives would have undeniably been saved.

My personal belief is charter captains will not require life jackets for bar crossings unless mandated by a law.

T-Bone · 09-11-2003, 05:25 PM

My wife and I are somewhat new to ocean fishing and have crossed the Winchester bar many times. We're both excellent swimmers but wear our PFDs while crossing the bar because it's hard to keep your head up if you're unconscious or cold. However, we often take them off once we're out and the water is within our comfort level. Personally, I don't want to see another law put into place telling me what I have to do. As a rule we offer PFDs to friends but let them use their own judgement.

Lady West · 09-11-2003, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phil Layer:

There was a fellow on the boat Lady West's father was on. He wore a PFD and survived. Lady West's father did not wear one and didn't.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Actually, none of the 3 on board were wearing PFD's. My step-brother grabbed 2 after he surfaced, the operator (my step-uncle) grabbed a float coat and 2 or 3 other PFD's or throwables. My Father was the only one who could not get to a jacket. The operator told my Father to hold on to a rope that ran down the side of the boat and he tried to help hold Dad up as long as he could. Finally Dad just let go.......he didn't have the strength to hold on any longer. Had he been wearing a jacket, he would have been able to expend less engery trying to stay afloat and perhaps he would have survived.

Yes, he knew the risks involved and still didn't wear a PFD which makes me very angry. Having been raised by him to "never leave the dock" without one, I can only assume that it was a "I'm with the "guys" and they aren't wearing one situation. Kinda like when your budies tell you, "you aren't that drunk" and let you drive home.................

Re:Play · 09-11-2003, 08:06 PM

My condolences on your Dad's death. I am a confirmed PFD wearer, but having another law, does not mean that everyone will wear them anyway. I look at some laws that I really support like: motorcycle helmuts, seatbelts, drunken driving, etc, and the fact there is a law, does not mean people follow it. Then you get into the enforcement issue, and with all the demands on law enforcement personnel, enforcing a law that should be common sense should not be added their schedule.

If anyone can figure out how to regulate common sense (or lack of it) it will work for this and many other things.

corrirod · 09-11-2003, 11:16 PM

Kujo, you never miss a chance for a sales pitch do you?

Don't bring up the Taki-Too to make a point about lifejackets not being safe! EVERYONE with lifejackets LIVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When is the last time someone died on the Oregon coast of hypothermia while in a lifejacket? Just curious. My guess is it doesn't happen very much. Dying from hypothermia before drowning because you're not wearing a lifejacket is very possible and is actually the norm from what I understand, but that's different than having a lifejacket on and dying of hypothermia. NOBODY, I REPEAT NOBODY would've died of hypothermia on the Taki-Too had they been wearing lifejackets. Don't get me wrong, your suits are by far safer than a lifejacket, that's not my point, in fact I wish I could afford one myself, but lifejackets are better than nothing.

Lifejackets keep you from drowning and they make you much more visible to be rescued. I would guess to say that drownings from boat rollovers would be completely, or at least 99%, removed by implementing a law. The other 1% would be those that "don't need to be told what to do" and prefer not to wear one no matter what.

That's alright, as Mark's(Fish Assassin) son once said, if it weren't for those types of people I'd be out of a job. Looks like a lot of job security to me. Wish I could still join.

I've fought this battle on another 200 post thread before so I'm done. Good luck Lady West, I wish you the best.