When to go... When not to go!!!

[Born to be Wild]

Folks please don't try this at home!




















The first three pic's were of two different charter boats entering Depoe Bay. The boats might appear small due to the size of the surf but in fact are 43' delta's. The other two boats were respectable size commercial boats. All are exempt from bar closures.

I did not take these pic's but have one I took of a different charter in some big seas that was predicted to be 17' the day of the picture and posted it on ifish back in February. I do have plenty mind blowing video I have shot with my camcorder over the years before I got my first digital camera however and have seen other video's shot of the charters in Newport. This is just a small sample of what’s available on stills and video.

Sometimes (often times) the money factor has a tendency to make for poor judgment of "when to go, and when not to go".

There are some charters that don't consider fishing these kinds of conditions and hopefully none of them will in the future. I have been out spoken on this for many years now.

Dan

[ 09-06-2003, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]

[Orca]

WOW, and no fatalities?

[ 09-01-2003, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Orca ]

[King Kong]

Great pic's. [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

[Pilar]

:shocked:

There are those who have hit the rocks in Depoe bay and those that someday will.

[corrirod]

Wow! :shocked:

I'd love to see some of your videos Dan! I'd love to borrow them from you or maybe you could bring them to a TA meeting this winter?

It's images like these that help keep us from getting lulled into complacency from too many easy bar crossings.

[Jimmy Carl Black]

HOLY!

This reminds me of the 'know your captain' post.

Take it easy out there and warn all your friends and relatives about knowing their charter captains as well.

[rockn'reel]

That is just stupid and wrong...but man those are some awesome and just mind blowing pictures! I cannot believe someone actually had the guts or, most likely, the lack of brains to do such a horrible thing. I mean what is worse? Staying out in the ocean, after you made the stupid decision to go out in the first place, or try to cross and pray (and wet yourself) for a safe crossing.
I know these pictures are supposed to show us the stupidity out there and never try this ourselves, but still they are pretty spectacular pictures! I am very amazed that there were no fatalities.
I have always wondered what it would be like to try a crossing in huge sea like that and now I have as close an understanding as I ever want to have. Thanks for the pictures and the warning.

[Deepslayer]

Scares me!! And I am not afraid of anything?!?! I sure wouldn't go out with those crazy skippers!!

[Mark Mc]

Hey Rock, I think you may be a little harsh with all the "stupid and wrong" talk when it's regarding a charter boat coming back in. There are plenty of days when it looks fine leaving a harbor in the morning, but then 10 or 12 hours later it's a different story. So do you think they should all stay outside, and have all the passengers air lifted by a helicopter? And how many days should the skipper and deckhand stay out there before trying to come back in? I wouldn't be so quick to judge by just looking at a photo, without knowing "the rest of the story." BTW, I'm saying this regarding the 43 ft Delta....

[Marty]

The story I heard about the guy that was prone on the bow of smallish sportfisher was that he was going to kick off if there was any contact with the rocks. He ended up breaking one leg and being pulled in by the coast guard.....but he lived.


Marty

[WP]

Scaring Deepslayer is saying something...he goes out with me! If that doesn't scare him, very little will....those pictures would be the exception!
WP :smile:

[corrirod]

Mark is right. We can't be too quick to judge these skippers as we have no idea what the circumstances were. It's real easy for conditions to go bad while you're out there.

This thread should be another good reality check for all of us. (Stuff) happens! I don't know how many times I've been out and conditions went to hell and you're left with no option but to tough it out.

Let's look at the options these skippers have, assuming that conditions were more favorable when they went out and have now gone to hell.
-- Stay out till things get better? What if they don't get better, then what?
--CoastGuard? What can they do to help in this situation? Not much. You're not in distress other than being scared so there's not much they can do for you, especially if this is Depoe Bay because there's no way for them to escort you in.
--Go to another port? Possibly, depending on how much fuel you have and if the conditions are any better there. This brings up a good question, how well do you know your fuel consumption and exactly how much fuel you have in your tank? If you have a fuel flowmeter you can be pretty accurate, with an analog gauge.......not so accurate. If you do have an analog gauge, should you attempt a run to another port, not knowing exactly how much fuel you have? I say no. Also, what if you do make it to another port only to find the conditions there are just as bad if not worse? Now what do you do? You just burned a bunch more fuel to get there and you still can't get in. Now what?

I've got to run for now but I think we need to expand on all the possible scenarios here for no other reason than to get them out in the open so we all can learn.

These things can AND WILL happen to all of us eventually!

The worst thing we can do is believe that it couldn't happen to us and not prepare for it.

Always assume the worst WILL happen. Prepare for it, then move on. --Dale Carnegie

[Sea Jypzee]

I have a good friend who I work with who used to commercial dory fish. He has often told me of a trip he took one time out of Gerabaldi many years ago. He was out for tuna I believe, and on the way back in the ocean became very angry. Bad to the point that they had closed all of the bars on the central coast. So running to another bar wasn't even an option. They were all restricted to everyone. They were flat out shut down. :shocked: :shocked: [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

He, and several other commercial boats were forced to wait it out overnight offshore, waiting for things to settle down enough so they could get in. As it turned out, it wasn't till morning that they could make it in.

So, now the question really is do you have the necessary equipment and provisions onboard that you COULD wait out offshore in case of an emergency, or bad bar conditions? Yes, it's extremely rare that something like this would happen, but the fact is that it can.

As it turns out, all boats made it back in, however Jeff tells me of several boats (including the boat he was on (a friends) ended up with broken out windows, and other damage from taking waves.

[Fishplay]

I judge not. Yes, conditions can and do deteriorate while at sea. Everyone crossing the bar should expect and prepare for that possability.

As a Captain there is one factor you can control should the conditions turn ugly. The bar you have to navigate on incoming.

This is the reason I do not fish Garibaldi or Depoe Bay for Halibut. I have fished Depoe for TUNA once and I question the intelegence of that.

Short close in trips out of either do not concerne me. I fish the G's south jetty this time of year regularly.

Time and money is always the determining factor on choice of port.

Whether it is the cheap slip rate, or the closer proximity to home and fishing grounds (which both equate to money as much as time).

A few minutes, a few dollars, and a few fish are not worth your boat or your life.

Choose your port wisely!

[Sea Jypzee]

Fishplay - Don't fool yourself into thinking that just cause you go out of a larger port means you are automatically safer. When things turn bad offshore, it's not just the small ports that it turns bad in. Re-read my post above? ALL ports on the central coast were shut down. Not just Gerabaldi or Depoe Bay. It was South Beach, Tillamook, all of them. They had nowhere TO go.

The following paragraph is what I was going to add to my above post, however I deleted it out of berevity.

Each winter in the Emergency Room in Newport, we dread the opening of the commercial Crabbing season, cause those guys go out there in the worst time of the year as far as the ocean goes. Ocean crabbing opens in December, with the best months being till about March/April so they have to go out in horrid conditions just in order to make enough money to live on. Many times over the years we get people involved in boating accidents, either they hit the jetty on the way in, in rough seas with already damaged ships from the storm (this happened 2? winters ago), boats that run aground (last winter), too small of fishing boats capsizing cause they were fishing too near the surf line (every year it seems), and numerous other situations people may find themselves in.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">That jetty I refer to above? Is the north jetty in NEWPORT. The simple fact is that Depoe Bay's 'hole' may be very small, but it's also one of the fastest and easiest 'bar' crossings on the coast. The volume of water going through the hole in DB is insignificant compaired to other places like Newport, etc.

[ 08-31-2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Sea Jypzee ]

[Born to be Wild]

Hey Rock, I think you may be a little harsh with all the "stupid and wrong" talk when it's regarding a charter boat coming back in. There are plenty of days when it looks fine leaving a harbor in the morning, but then 10 or 12 hours later it's a different story.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Mark you're missing the point. We are not talking days when it's fine or looks fine to go out. But those days that they choose to go out when the bar is closed and rough and they all go to "chicken point" to look at it and some of them decide to go for it anyway (usually the same group) instead of doing the right and responsible thing of refunding the customers money.

I know of one big charter boat that had his windows blown out when he took a big wave on the way out. He saw the bar and knew ahead of time what the ocean was doing. This took place in Newport as well. I'm sure Albecore Tuna Captain could tell you stories but probably will elect not to (understandably) because his charter cousins in Newport wouldn't be too happy about it.

We are not talking the exceptional lengthy 10-12 hour charter trips for tuna or halibut but the shorter 5 hour bottom fishing trips that take place in the winter months.

On those days we not only go down to "chicken point" and watch and film them coming in but watch them going out as well where often times they take an unnecessary beating.

Some of these guys have nick names like "Big Wave ..." and "Rough Water ..." for a reason.

I will make Corrirod a video of the extensive collection that I have shot over the years and you guys will see the problem.

The Taki-Too tragedy was a perfect example of what has been going on and still would have it not been for the spotlight being on the charters. There were 4 boats that decided to cross that extremely dangerous bar that day that resembled winter conditions. The rest of the Garibaldi fleet decided to do the smart and right thing and cancelled that day. Same thing happens here at Depoe Bay every winter but with less serious consequences so far.

The reason for all the photos and video is because it is well known ahead of time that these guys are attempting to take on Mother Nature and it draws a crowd. You live in the valley so you are not here all the time when this takes place. The locals are very aware of this and most don't condone these types of actions.

Corrirod the Coast Guard does escort these guys in every year. You will see in the videos that some times the charters are escorted in all the way out from the whistler in because it is too dangerous for them to be sitting clear out at the bell. You have Coast Guard personell on the rocks at "chicken point" with VHF radio's communicating to the charters and to the Coast Guard boats that are out doing the escorting. You will also see Coast Guard boats in their 30' surf boats zig zagging back behind the charters in front of the hole in hopes in breaking down the waves behind the charters which I have never seen much affect. Mean while the other charters that chose to cancel for obvious reasons sit there on the rocks and just watch hoping they make it in safely.

Keep in mind it is a lot easier to go out in hazardous conditions against the waves and swells than it is to come back in with them when you have a lot less control.

You will also notice that during these rough bar crossings that all the passengers are donning life jackets on the way in .

You will also see some of these big 40-50 foot charters coming in and then turn back and head back out because of their own judgment or the Coast Guard communications warnings of big series behind them. Sometimes it takes upwards of 40 minutes or so before they squeak on in. Sometimes they end up with costly holes in their hulls.

You can defend their actions if you like but this problem has been recognized by other charter boat captains, myself and plenty others for many years now and I think we all have stated this is an accident waiting to happen. As I have said previously I drew attention to this problem back in February on ifish which included a picture of a charter boat out front of Depoe in real ugly seas that were forecast to build to 17’ that day. I think the video I shot that day captures the stupidity of the moment.

It all boils down to them making a decision to go for it when they know they really shouldn't because they don't want to refund that $500.00-$1000.00 for the day. And money flow can get really tight here in the winter months between November and February.

It's a gamble. And when people use poor judgment to endanger other people’s lives it is very wrong in my books.

[Born to be Wild]

I have to agree with you there Nancy. All bars have there limitations.

Depoe Bay bar (if you choose to call it that) is very safe and I have crossed it hundreds of times day and night. But I knew what I was getting into before I crossed it except for when I first got my dory. I learned real fast.

I can't remember a rough bar crossing here in Depoe bay that wasn't rough to begin with or wasn't forecast ahead of time. The swells have to come from offshore first and they (NOAA) knows what the swells are doing offshore at any given time. These rough bar crossings in Depoe are caused by big swells and there is no ebb tide factor here.

The Coast Guard places bar restrictions that for the most part keep the private boats from crossing rough bars and I am confident that it has saved many lives. On the other hand charters and commercials are exempt from the bar restrictions.

I personally would like to see the charters have to abide by the bar closures also. It is not right in my opinion that their customers are placed in some of these predicuments placing their trust in the hands of a captain that is motivated by money in his decision process.

Let the Coast Guard make the decision. This would have saved many lives, valuable lives in Garibaldi this summer.

I'm not sure but I believe commercial airline pilots are occasionally grounded when conditions are not safe.

Dan

[corrirod]

Dan,

Nobody is condoning a poor decision to go out in bad seas. I didn't see anywhere on your original post that said these were days the captains flagrantly went against the forecasts, therefore I had no reason to jump on that wagon.

If they went against the Coast Guard's closures or against all of mother nature's signs, then they deserve to be chastized. I wasn't there, the story wasn't told, so I don't jump to conclusions.

My point, if you reread my post, is that things like this happen on "good" days too so be prepared. I hope you're not going to say that after all this experience you've had on the ocean that you never returned on a bad bar, are you? WE HAVE ALL DONE IT! And even though we shouldn't have, we did, and luckily survived to warn others not to do it.

Or maybe I'm the only one that's come back on a less-than-ideal bar? If so, then I apologize and disregard all my previous posts.

[Albacore Tuna Captain]

Dan,

You are just in your ridicule of Captains who cross dangerous bars in bad situations and for going when it is obvious to all that conditions are unfavorable. But who are all knowing and able to judge the ocean and how it will be in a few hours when decisions are made to go? Anytime the bar of any port deteriorates, it becomes the judgement call of the Captain who is suppose to know his vessel and its abilities as to whether to attempt the crossing or not. It is an easy thing to do on Monday morning to criticize someones decision to cross. The ocean inviornment is dangerous and requires skills obtained over years of experience to safely handle. When lives are lost under conditions that existed in Garibaldi recently, anyone would be able to come to the same conclusion. That crossing attempt was made under the worst possible situation. The captain of that boat was criminally negligent in my book. But a wave take out a window at anytime. That's why boats are built to sustain bad seas because conditions can change. And by the way, I don't know of any charter boat in Newport that has had the windows blown out since I have worked out of here. I know of some boats that have crossed the bar when I thought it unwise but those captains thought it safe. That was their call. I have started to make crossings where I decided to abort. Those are decisions made as to whether it is safe for the passengers or not. Not if the crossing can be made. I have remained at sea overnight due to a bar going sour and it was unpredictable.

What it all comes down to is that the ocean can be dangerous. Lives are lost on it. That's why boats are required to have safety equipment in case something happens. Just like you have a seat belt in your car in case the unforseen happens.

The ocean is a fluid changing enviornment with termendous power stored and able to change your day if you are unprepared. But if you are going to judge others about when they should have gone or not, you will be finding fault with everyone eventually.

There is a story behind every picture. Save your ridicule because someday, if you continue to venture onto the ocean, you too will find yourself in a difficult situation and hopefully your skill and years of experience will pull you through. And hopefully no one will be there with a camera to take pictures to Monday morning quarterback you.

[Albacore Tuna Captain]

And on the subject as to whether the Coast Guard should be in control of closing the bar or not, I have to say this.

The Coast Guard had full knowledge of the bar conditions at Garibaldi and did not close it. Under the conditions that existed, it should have been closed to all traffic!

I have seen the Coast Guard close bars to vessels when no condition existed to warrant the closure. I have seen bars so bad, no one in their right mind would attempt, and the Coast Guard hand no restrictions in place. WHY?!!

Because each station makes the decision based on the Officer of the Watch's judgement. And will you trust your life to a decision made by a 22 year old 3rd class petty officer of the watch who has only been at the station a few days and has no local experience?

The reason the Coast Guard cannot restrict a Charter Vessel Captain is because he is a "Licensed" Merchant Marine Officer who is tested and judge competent and able to handle his vessel in all conditions and has proven years of experience under his belt. Some may not exercise good judgement, but I don't think I want to be restricted by an agency which puts a young inexperienced Petty Officer in charge of restricting the bar. He can restrict inexperienced boaters, but he should not be exercising his judgement over me.

I served in the Coast Guard and it is no different than any government agency. Do you want the Oregon State Police telling you that you cannot drive your car on the road when it is icy and slick? There are people out there who can handle a car on dry roads and they get into trouble when it snows. Do you think the OSP should tell Greyhound when they can or cannot operate their buses??? I'm not ready for Big Brother yet!

[Sea Jypzee]

I generally am against big government and big-brother watching over us type of situations. In this case, I think a comprimise can be made however.

My personal preference would be to have it so that when the CG determines a bar is too rough for all recreational vessels, (as in the Taki Too incident), that any charter vessels must require all passangers and crew to wear PFD's while crossing the bar.

I personally feel that charter boat captains have an inherant conflict of interest between money in their pocket and the safety of the public. If it were a commercial fishing crew venturing out on their own, than all the more power to them and I wish them a safe journey. They can either wear their PFD's or not. But when someone is taking the public into those conditions, I think there needs to be something that places the balance on the side of safety first. If that takes a law to require PFD's be worn on hazardous bar crossings, than so be it.

At the same time, I am against a law that requires PFD's be worn at all times, or on all bar crossings for all people. But that is another discussion we've had before, so I'll not stray into that direction further at this time. :grin:

[Fishplay]

Nancy, beleive me I'm not the one fooling myself here.

In my opinion Depoe Bay is a less desireable port because; It is very narrow and requires the Captain navigate an S turn inside the narrow channel.

Very few sport boats are equiped with radar (mine included) and I personally think it is a neccesity if your chosen port is Depoe Bay.

If conditions sour and you get heavy fog along with it, Depoe Bay becomes a huge challenge.

This is in no way a personal attack and I stand in judgement of no one.

I do however; want everyone to return safely from every journey.

There are many very good people here that are just learning about ocean adventure and I would like them to live through the learning curve.

Yes, all bars can be closed. Yes, accidents happen on all bars. Crab fishing in December??? Now there's that Money verses Judgement thing again!

It is my very strong opinion that Newport is the safest bar on the North/Central coast and that opinion comes from years of experience and many crossings.

I admit, I have very little experience crossing at Depoe Bay. The reason for that is probably obvious by now.

[Uglygreen]

This is more my speed.... :grin:

UG

[Zippy]

Perhaps the C.G. should fly a special flag for those kind of days... something like a pair of white pants with a brown stripe down the back of them :shocked: Seriously, awesome pictures that really makes you think. thanks for sharring them

[Miss B Haven]

Holy breakers Batman! :shocked: :shocked: [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

I'm liking the CR bar better by the second. [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

[Deepline]

Albacore Tuna Captain!!

I would suggest you think a little more deeply into your statement you made regarding the incident in Garibaldi as 'CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT.'
That is a strong statement, from a fellow Merchant Mariner!!! And to put it simply....YOU CAN NOT BACK UP YOUR STATEMENT. You were not there!
I have lost complete respect for you! This is all I have to say!

And Depoe Bay Dan........Why don't you put your camera away! You remind me of a Peeping Tom. If you want to experience what you capture on film, you can come out with me and experience it up front and personal. Your pictures don't mean a dang thing......unless you can explain the circumstances completely, which you can't. This is all I have to say to you!

[Killertraylor]

Thanks, Dan - I LOVE pics of rough water and boats. They make me feel much better about fishing when it's nice out. Those are awesome pictures! I hope I can view some of your video some day - I wish I lived closer to Depot - it's always exciting to watch the boats come in there, even when it's not so rough!

Marty - that reminds me of Irick up on the bow of that boat!

[Orca]

Hmmmm...

[Born to be Wild]

If you want to experience what you capture on film, you can come out with me and experience it up front and personal. Your pictures don't mean a dang thing......unless you can explain the circumstances completely, which you can't.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I think I’ll pass! I don’t have anything to do with the ocean when it approaches that stage except stay on the beach. As far as your statement; “unless you can explain the circumstances completely, which you can't”, you’re wrong. I can and already have.

After Mike’s reply the other night I decided to get out my video camcorder I haven’t used for a few years and look through my old 8mm cam tapes. I was surprised at what I found. I had forgotten about some of the incredible scenes I had taped a few years back.

I’m making copies right now to send with a couple of the salty dogs that are tuna fishing out of Depoe Bay tomorrow (today). Already talked to Skein tonight at his boat and will have a copy for him tomorrow.

Here’s a couple pic’s I took of my TV screen while playing some of the video segments including one charter boat that almost capsized. The videos are much better quality of course and very lenghy.



The pic above is of a charter that came real close to cap-sizing. In the video you can see the wave push it side ways several feet. You will also notice that you can see the deck, crab pots on the deck and people sliding around and this I taped from shore.



The pic above is of a 43' delta that was in close to the "hole" but decided to turn around and go back out because of a big series behind it. When it got close to the "bell" it took quite a series and was tossed around pretty good.



This pic is of a 50' delta and after turning around several times it took a pretty good break between it and the 44' motor life boat seen in the pic.

Three different boats, three different days. The video will show several different boats on several different days. All have one thing in common. Some captains elected to go even though the ocean was either rough to begin with and/or forecast to be hazardous.

I counted 6 different skippers on the beach that elected to not go in the videos. Three of them I scanned with the camcorder and they also can be heard throughout the segment and three other skippers can be heard but not seen. One of them said something along the line of; "they simply don't get it". He has a 50' charter boat.

So it is of my opinion that after digging up the archives (my videos) that I have not watched for a few years that they had no business being out there and that it was very dangerous conditions. The Coast Guard that can be seen and heard on shore and out in the boats are very experienced and knowledgeable and were a great help to the charters on calling flat spots and warning the charters of series directly behind them and on north reef. They (Coasties) can also be seen running (zig-zagging) behind them (charters) in attempts to break the waves down a bit but I am not sure of the effectiveness of those maneuvers. Of course they are out there in case of any mishaps.

I have to disagree with you on this one Mike. I agree with you that most of the charter captains seen in these videos are very much experts in what they are doing but as you can see in the videos some of them had some very stressful and in my opinion close encounters. That includes the one segment of the 50' delta being run by the alternative skipper who is an ex-Coast Guard and know as "big wave...".

You mentioned Grey Hounds. When hwy 101 was closed on foul weather from the slide, it was closed for a long period of time to both recreational and commercial traffic because of the uncertainty or stability of the road for safety concerns. It is just my opinion that if a bar is closed for safety reasons that it should include commercial or charter boats also.

I'm not trying to ridicule the charters. Criticize yes. I think there are concerns they need to address including their mockery of fish science, the proper handling of wild coho and the running of rough bars. Again, this isn't all charter captains.

Dan

[WP]

Dan,
Your either up too late or too early! Great shots! I will see you today, I hope. Try to get a little sleep my friend!
Dave

[Reel Creel]

show us more, it keeps me good. No fight with a fish is worth that.

[Gregotis98]

Deepline,
I'm assuming your post is a joke, right? I'd say the pictures pretty much explain them selves.I have a hard time believing anyone would take you up on your offer to go out with you if you are nearly as stupid as you sound.Do you want Dan to put away his camera for any particular reason? Are you in any of these shots? Or do you not want to be caught in one of these photos?

As far as criminally negligent I would like to hear from you after talking to the families of the dead. Not making the passengers put on lifejackets alone is bad enough.

If I were Mike I wouldn't want your respect.

[FishBowl]

Amen Gregotis98
I too would want to stay away from seeing it from Deeplines boat

[Uglygreen]

Ditto previous two posts... UG

[MasterCaster]

DBD, Some great pics you have captured! Some people just dont have enough respect for the ocean and its powers. Others just get caught out at the wrong time. Maybe they will be a reminder to people to ALWAYS be prepared for conditions to get worse while out on the Ocean.

Deepline,

I would suggest you think a little more deeply into your statement you made regarding the incident in Garibaldi as 'CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT.'
That is a strong statement

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">It is a VERY strong statement and one I AGREE with! He should never have taken anyone across that bar in those conditions.

I agree with Albacore Tuna Captain about the Captain of the Taki Too. I was on that boat a couple years ago with the same Captain and after that trip across the Tillamook bar with him I doubt I will ever cross it again. I will also be asking MANY more questions if I decide to go out on another charter ANYWHERE! As well as knowing the conditions better before hand. It was a learning experience for me to say the least.

I would much rather be in my own boat anyway. That way if I dont feel comfortable with the conditions I can always turn around and come back another day. THERE IS NO FISH WORTH A PERSONS LIFE!


Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[ 09-05-2003, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: MasterCaster ]

[rockn'reel]

I have seen this videa of Dan's and it is amazing. There are many different shots that you cannot believe the boat is going to make it through. You have to be very thankful that the CG are there to call out when to try a crossing and just being on the water for any mishaps. Thanks to Dan for sending one of the videos back with me so I could watch it!

[Woody]

Deepline, please do us favor and tell us the name of your boat and your home port...........SO WE CAN STAY AS FAR AWAY FROM YOU AS POSSIBLE!!.

[Albacore Tuna Captain]

Deepline,

It is unfortunate that someone can be so sensitive to a person voicing their opinion. In stating what my opinion was, I based it on a lot more than what the lay person would use. Emotion had nothing to do with why I voiced my opinion.

I wasn't there. I did not need to be there to come to the conclusion that I did. I based my opinion on the following.

The Tillamook County Sheriff Department made public their report. In that report several points were obivious;

There was no indication of an engine failure as the witnesses said the engine was running fine and there was evidence the props were turning when they hit a solid object.

Witnesses stated the Captain was conversing with boats that had crossed just ahead of him and all reported a very bad crossing including one that caused injury to a deckhand and passengers.

Witnesses overheard the Captain talking to his deckhand and made the statement, "I don't want to be here!" refering either to the crossing or the situation he was getting into.

The tide was ebbing to the lowest tide of the year, was about an hour before max low tide.

The tide was ebbing! You know what that means.

The reported swell was more than 12 foot and very close together. That along with a low tide, shallow bar and ebbing tide combined to make a very dangerous situation!

The Sheriff's Office investigation could find no mechanical fault for the accident, no causation from any other vessel or operator.

I am a retired Deputy Sheriff with over ten years experience in Marine Law Enforcement and have investigated numerous marine accidents to determine responsibility and causation. I am a graduate of the Underwriters Laboratory Advance Marine Accident Investigation course and have taught Marine Accident Investigation for the Oregon State Marine Board. I am going on my fourth issue of my Masters License and have worked in the maritime industry for over 15 years. I have experience crossing almost every bar on the west coast of the U.S. including Garibaldi.

When an accident occures and someone is killed, blame or causation is found and affixed. Those doing the prosecuting are never "there" to see what happened but make a determination based on the facts, knowledge and evidence.

I stated my opinion based on what is known about what happened. I apologize if that offends you.

[graybeard]

Ya know, I've never been out on a charter boat before. But if I were to go on one, I think it would be on the Blitz. Well said, Captain.

gb

[WP]

WP applauds ATC! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]
It is nice to read a dispassionate response to an emotional outburst. I have fished on your wing a number of times Mike and have talked to you on a number of occasions. Your response just confirms my suspitions that you exlemplify professionalism and class. I too would choose to charter with you as a first choice if I go on a charter again. I also have, and will again, recommend you to people looking for a great trip with a class capitan. I wish I could say that I was as clam and objective in response to Deeplines personal, emotional attacks on you and DBD. I couldn't even write a response that wouldn't get me banned! You both demonstarted real class and character in your replies. It is a pleasure to be associated with both of you.
WP

[Born to be Wild]

Mike, that was a good post and it appears you have quite the credentials. The thing nobody seems to mention is the other three boats that crossed that bar before the Taki-Too. I feel they were negligent also and this is the kind of practice I had been concerned about for years from Newport to Garibaldi.

Call it a coincidence or not but this is a post I made on ifish on February 14th (03:50 AM) of this year. That was back in my drinking days and I probably had been up all night. Regardless, you can see my concern back then some 4 months before the Taki-Too went down based on what I have observed here in Depoe Bay, have heard about and seen on video in Newport and have heard about in Garibaldi.

This is when you shouldn't go out!



The forecast was for the swell to build to 16' that day. This is a 30' + charter boat!

She should have never gone out that day and I could find a pic from the same day that would give you chill's!

What motivated her to go out that day?

Money, or pleasure?

My point is again, it doesn't matter the size of the boat as much as, the experience/equipment and judgement of the skipper/captain!

Sure, the bigger the better if you are going to play Popeye. But, every year, lives are lost!
Mostly due to the hunger for money or a fish!

It ain't worth it folks. Gambling is fine for Casino's.
Chance's are, your odds will eventually catch up with you.

Would you like to see some video I happen to catch of a different 30'+ Charter boat almost capsizing?
The Coast Guard asked me for a copy of it for investigatov reasons and got a copy from me. The Charter Captain soon retired after that.

No money or no fish is worth it!

Experience, knowlede,communication (CB, VHF,cell phone), safety equip., AND GOOD JUDGEMENT!

I would rather be in a 16 footer, than be in a 24 footer with an in experienced boat operator in borderline seas!

I hate to overdwell on this subject, but I hate worse to hear of a boat gone down.

Be safe!

Ask and trust the Coast Gaurd more than anyone on this site!

The Ocean can be a great experience especially, for the experienced.

I might perhaps be out there tomorrow/today with Bill Monroe, in his drift boat.

Depends on the Ocean.

Dan

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Well, Bill was coming down with his drift boat and I cannot remember if he even takes it out in the salt or not. But if it was as nice as it was in the picture in my previous post (Feb. thread) I would have tried to talk him into going out front and catching some fish. Some of you that have seen the video also saw one of our ex deckhands exiting Depoe Bay harbor into the open ocean in a row boat. They used to do that a lot and it was safe because of the calm ocean conditions and their experience.

So I have expressed my concern here and other threads (including the Feb. thread) because of some folks just don’t seem to accept the fact that charter boat captains are human and make mistakes and I personally feel some of those mistakes are the product of poor judgment motivated by money. Now I realize that is a bit harsh but that is my opinion. I could be wrong but I know it is shared by many others and I am not alone in saying over the years that it was an accident waiting to happen.

I’m not going to go into any of the details of any of the videos or pic’s I have shot. I don’t think it is necessary. I have already made a couple copies for a couple local charters and will make a few more for some of the other charters. I will make a copy for Mike and drop it off at his office if he would be interested in watching it. Probably nothing he hasn’t seen before.

To conclude this and hopefully I don’t need to respond to this thread again:

I posted these pic’s to send a message and originally thought it was best to just post the pic’s and nothing else. I decided to put little captions on the pic’s against my better judgment and I have since gone in and edited them out. Nobody criticized me for it but I did feel I was a little guilty of “ridicule” with those captions even though I didn’t mean it that way. There’s a time for a little sense of humor and other times not and even though no one got injured in these pic’s it wasn’t the right place and time.

I’m not sure whether I have any more video that I have shot because I am missing some tapes but all the video was shot on 4 different days and a couple different years. I haven’t been around the charter scene much the last couple years and don’t know what has taken place.

Of all the several rough days that a charter or commercial boat has hit the rocks I wasn’t around with my camera. A couple times I was filleting fish and heard the impact and saw the Coast Guard scramble.

On all of the days I video taped rough bar crossings there were no private or commercial boats out fishing. The bar was no doubt closed to private boats and some of the commercial boats I know would not consider going out in those conditions/forecast and I recall some of their comments.

The charter fleet has a very good safety record here in Depoe Bay but has damaged a few boats and caused some minor injuries in the 9 years I have been here.

I believe if you push the envelope whether it be in space travel, a race car driver or boating in the ocean accidents are going to happen.

Guess my point is; are they taking unnecessary chances that should be avoided?

I knew Doug Davis a little through business and believe that he was probably a good man. But I feel he and others pushed the envelope often throughout the years and he pushed it one too many times.

Dan

[bull285]

ATC, What a great post. My sentiments exactly. I also read the Sheriff's report and agree with you 100%.
Most of the problems I've seen happen in bar crossings involve inexperience and a lack of judgement. Most times it's been someone who gets into rough water and either tries to turn around at the wrong time or backs out on the throttles and lets a following wave catch them. Some times the water is just too rough for the boat. However most of the ones I've seen are caused by misshandling the boat. An old skipper once told me that most boats will take more water than their skippers will.
If the water is rough enough to make you uncomfortable don't go. However if you're out and need to get back in these are the cardinal rules for rough water.
1. Never expose your broadside to breaking waves.
2. In following seas stay with the wave. Don't let a following wave overtake you. (these can be the worst. (Swamped boat = no motor)
3. Maintain steerage way. Don't back out of the throttle and lose steering.
I look at some of the pictures posted by Depo Bay Dan and cringe. And remember some of my learning experiences. Needless to say we've all got our stories.
Now that I've rambled on I guess the main point is if it looks rough it probably is and don't go. Be safe. As a general rule I figure that if any of the charter boat captains start backing out I have no buisness out there.

[Badger]

I commend DBD and Albacore Tuna Captain for offering their opinions. This is America and they're free to do that. The photos don't lie, the video is pretty incredible.

Everyone is regretful 11 lives were lost that day. :depressed: :depressed: Perhaps the additional awareness will enlighten others just how dangerous the ocean can be and stop another stupid incident from occurring in the future.

Deepline, which part of ATC's comment do you take issue with, the "criminal" or the "negligence?" And at what point do you think Taki Too made the wrong decision that day, or was that just one of those unfortunate circumstances that charter boat patrons need to realize could happen. :whazzup:

Care to explain what the real situation was that day, or why anyone should have decided to go out for a few halibut under those conditions day? And are you really a charter boat captain? :whazzup: :whazzup:

Deepline?
You got problems? Nothing that DBD or ATC have posted here is wrong, it's also their opinion.
"Stupid Boat Tricks" will kill. If you run a boat for hire there is absolutely no reason to risk the lives of your costumers for a few $$.

[sturgophile]

Here's what happened last week down south: http://www.currypilot.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=6742

Thankfully, everyone in this story lived to tell it because of cooperation between the Coast Guard, charter captains and private parties. Everybody started out with warm weather, calm seas and a reasonable forecast that went bad very quickly. One of the civilian rescuers mentioned that hypothermia was a major factor in several near-deaths that day.

[jokester]

If you run a boat for hire there is absolutely no reason to risk the lives of your costumers for a few $$.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Well said Keta! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[Mr. Fisherman]

Holly Molly Sturgophile! What a story. It should be required reading for Salty Dogs..
Thanks for posting it and I'm glad none of our brothers or sisters were lost in that squall.