Bad Charter Experience - What Would You Do?

SKP · 08-21-2003, 09:14 PM

I need your input, I'm not going to name boat name's, at least not yet.

My friend, Pete Kuor, went out of Depoe Bay for silvers this past week. The boat caught 9 keeper silvers for 15 people fishing. This is pretty low for what's happening out there.

Pete goes out with this charter. The deck hand was the only one allowed to touch the poles, rigs, lures, and bait unless someone had a fish on. One deck hand for 15 poles is all. OK, I guess so far.

He wanted to use his own pole and gear. Skipper says no. He would have used his diver and lure just like everyone else, except using his pole, which he is used to, and fits him just right. OK, he uses the supplied equipment, it's not too much of a big deal, so my friend does not make an issue. It's not his boat, so he will follow the skipper's rules. He knows he should have checked this in advance, so no big deal.

My friend's an experienced fisherman. He sees his diver is not working, and his lure is skipping the top of the water. He's not allowed to reel it in. OK, the skipper wants to keep the lines from getting tangled, OK, whatever. It takes the deck hand 15 minutes to get to his pole. My friend is upset, but stays with the rules. His diver keeps messing up the whole trip, so all he did is skim water. He hooks zero fish on this trip. The deck hand did not change out the faulty equipment.

Not many fish are being caught, but there are some. A few natives are caught, and they are mishandled. The deck hand nets the fish, and slams every fish on the deck of the boat inside the net. When it's determined they are natives, the hook is pulled, and the fish is not immediately put back, but most left on the deck of the boat while Mr. deck hand proceeds to either net another fish, or take care of getting the previous pole back in the water, before the native is thrown back. Pete says that almost all natives thrown back, are belly up in the water.

A 4 foot shark is caught by someone else, gaffed and is slammed onto the deck of the boat. The shark is really mishandled. The person that caught the shark tells the deck hand to just get the hook out of the mouth, and Mr. Deckhand replies that you can't keep this, it's going back and proceeds to mishandle the fish trying to get the hook out. He says, just cut the line, and the deck hand says that he needs to make sure that he gets his lure back. After several attempts to keep the lure, and after the shark has slid up and down the deck, and after blood is everywhere, the lure is finally out of the mouth, and the shark is thrown back. And you can guess if the shark makes it. Nope, belly up.

Things like this continue the whole trip.

[img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img]

1. Mishandled kept fish.
2. Mishandled native fish thrown back.
3. Mishandled shark.
4. Unhappy customers.
5. Faulty gear.
6. Clueless skipper and deck hand.

My friend, who is not on ifish from lack of a computer, wants to know a few things:

A. Should he ask for his money back and complain to either the skipper or the charter company or not?
B. Should he call Fish and Wildlife?
C. What else should he do?
D. Should this boat be named on Ifish.net?

SKP

Pirate · 08-21-2003, 09:59 PM

A. Definately complain and if the charter company has a fleet of boats, maybe request another trip "on them" with a different crew and boat. Most likely they won't refund his money.
B. If they get ****y at A. then call fish and wildlife.
C. This question is answered by B.
D. Yes if all above is occurs.

Just havin fun in a tough situation, but I'm sure your pal will make the best decision based on how bad he feels about the trip. Good Luck

Born to be Wild · 08-21-2003, 11:48 PM

Welcome to Depoe Bay! Welcome to the Depoe Bay charter boat industry!

I really can�t say that Newport is any better.

Can�t say that I haven�t given these guys a bad rap here on ifish.

I�ve tried to to deal with these guys for years on hatchery/wild fish issues and the handling of wild coho out there in the salt. For a few I think it has made a difference. For most of them it�s a lost cause for they are God and know all. They are the experts and you are a nobody. Just give them your money.

Most of them their attitudes stink. Their charter boat biology sucks. Their handling of wild coho is reflected by this. As far as I am concerned the majority of them do not deserve to fish coho in the salt.

I hesitantly brought this up (mishandling of wild coho) at the March ODFW salmon industry group meeting where not one single charter boat employee or owner from Depoe Bay showed up. Newport charters were there. The only people that spoke up were the commercial fishermen.

I brought up the article written by Bill Monroe and a disturbing post by Lost Sailor which were all very similar to your legit complaint to some State and Federal fisheries officials at the beginning of the meeting but felt that they didn�t want to chastise the charters. They never brought it up at the meeting so I did.

State and Fed fishery officials are well aware of this. One bio I talked to went out on a salmon fishing trip a couple years ago on a Depoe charter and this is what he experienced on the trip even though the skipper and deckhand knew he was a bio.

It�s a real joke. A bad joke.

I would venture to guess that the boat in question was not a Dockside Charters boat. They are all 6 pack boats except the Sampson and I am sure Lars runs a better ship than that.

That leaves Tradewinds Charters and I know it couldn�t be the Tacklebuster because Carl the deckhand respects wild fish and was releasing most of them without netting and sliding his hand down the leader and pulling the hook out by hand. Outch!

Couldn�t have been the Kadaho because he refused to fish coho this year.

That only leaves 5 large charter boats left. Out of those 5 boats I don�t know of one that handles wild coho properly. 3 of the 5 definitely are abusive to wild fish. So, which one was it that needs a little publicity?

Quote:

My friend, who is not on ifish from lack of a computer, wants to know a few things:

A. Should he ask for his money back and complain to either the skipper or the charter company or not?

I would submit a written complaint to both the charter boat company and the skipper both! I would go a step further and send the complaint to the president of the Oregon Charter Boat Association, Wayne Butler <barbarak@harborside.com>. He is a good guy and the one I gave both copies of complaints that I mentioned earlier to at the March ODFW meeting. He was deeply disturbed by this and in disbelief. He notified all the offices about this and I have copied/pasted his email to the charters at the end of this reply. Obviously didn�t do any good for some of the charters. Welcome to the Depoe Bay charter boat industry!

B. Should he call Fish and Wildlife?

Yes. I would email a copy to several ODFW employees so it doesn�t fall on deaf ears if it goes to the wrong person like it did at the meeting I attended. I�ll post or email you some suggested email addresses tomorrow. Also I would send a copy to Joseph J. Koczur, Jr. of NOAA office of law enforcement whom I spoke with back in March at the ODFW meeting. He works out of the Marine Science Center and his email is JOE.KOCZUR@NOAA.GOV

C. What else should he do?

Name the boat you and/or your friend fished on so they can get the publicity they deserve and other fishermen that have respect for wild fish and want a quality trip don�t end up on that boat supporting the boat owner/skipper! Let it be known to the best of your abilities of what is taking place down here with some of the charter fleet. I have my doubts that these closed minded guys will ever change. It�s a very sad situation here and I am glad to be relocating from this area so as not to see and hear the ugliness of the charter boat industry on a dailey basis any longer.

D. Should this boat be named on Ifish.net?

Guess I answered that one already. Yes.

Not all charters are the same! Let it be known which are the good and the bad.

Email to me from Wayne Butler (Oregon Charter Boat Association) on March 11th, 2003:

----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Butler
To:
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 11:56 PM
Subject: march 5th salmon meeting

please pass this on or post it in your offices

To all OCSA members and interested parties:

By now most of you will have heard, we are looking at a much more liberal coho season this year. The tentative numbers we are looking at are between 50 and 70 thousand, which is a great increase over the 22,500 we had last year.

The annual workshop to develop our salmon options was held in Newport on March 5th and turned out to be a very good meeting. We put together 3 options, all 3 are very appealing.

Option 1 was a July 1 thru July 31, 2 fish per day and August 1 thru August 31, 2 fish per day of which only 1 may be a coho, 7 days a week.

Option 2 was July 1 thru August 15, 2 fish per day, 7 days a week.

Option 3 was July 1 thru July 31, 2 fish per day, 7 days a week.

All these options are a 7 day a week fisheries. The final number adopted by the counsel will determine which option we can start with, the thing to keep in mind is that these options are tweekable if industry has other ideas. So all in all it was a good meeting. The only disturbing news was delivered by a private individual who showed me a message that was posted on IFISH.Net.

It was a letter from a person who went salmon fishing on a charter boat that advertises on IFISH.Net. His experience was not good. He was very upset about the way wild coho were handled. They were netted and thrown on the deck and left lay while other hatchery fish were being landed. He said the deckhand even cut the adipose fin off of one of the wild fish before he threw it back. This individual stated that he would not spend $70 to witness that kind of abuse of our wild stocks again.

One of the factors in determining our allowable catch is the mortality rate and with these kind of stories going around it does nothing but hurt our industry. If it is determined that we are killing more fish than expected due to poor handling practices we all stand to lose.

The charter boat operators in our state are looked at and considered professionals. Therefore we are held to a high standard. The thing to remember is we are not only being watched by the state but by the public as well. So I'll end this by saying: Let's take pride in our industry and association and slap the deckhand up along side the head if you catch him doing any of these things. Have a great season.

Wayne Butler

Born to be Wild · 08-22-2003, 02:38 AM

Some of you might wonder why I lost my patience or respect for some of these guys.

It wasn�t but 3 or 4 weeks ago that I posted on ifish a conversation that we heard while fishing on an ifisher�s boat fishing out of Depoe Bay by one of the charters.

When Jeurgan the skipper of the Tacklebuster criticized another Tradewinds boat�s deckhand of the way he was handling the wild coho the skipper of that boat came back on the �V� and said; �as far as I�m concerned, kill �em all so I don�t have to catch them again�. Then another charter captain came on the air and said; �you know Jeurgan those aren�t really wild fish�. Then the conversation went to �politically correctness�.

Me and some of the ifisher�s that have fished together this season have heard some interesting charter boat biology seminars on the VHF radio including a biologist that was onboard with us one day.

I don�t know if it is a joke amongst them or if they are serious but the non finclipped coho out there are often referred to as �Canadian hatchery coho� by the charters.

One charter boat captain was often heard referring to his released coho last year as �crabbait�. He is one of the captains that were paid with State or Federal monies to catch and retain live coho during the mid 90�s (when coho season was closed) for a hooking mortality study. It is obvious to me that he handled the coho a little different during the research study when his future of salmon fishing depended on the outcome of the study than he does now that he is fortunate to have a coho season again.

These guys will accept and use science when it pertains to California Gray Whales, etc. but will not acknowledge science and in fact mock science and biologist when it comes to hatchery and wild coho.

I just told a bio and a couple friends the other day that I was going to start a thread on ifish on behalf of the charters regarding fish biology and the differences of hatchery and wild fish and importance of wild fish. After realizing that all the hard work I have done on their behalf the past 8 or 9 years has not made much of a difference and that they are closed minded to science, I was hoping that after reading what fishermen themselves had to say about the issue might make a difference. Maybe after realizing that their �caf� science� is not accepted by an overwhelming number of fishermen and science and that they are receiving on going complaints they will be a little more open to the facts.

At least I learned a considerable amount on fish biology on their behalf and consider my time not completely wasted.

Dano

Orca · 08-22-2003, 06:41 AM

So sad, so very sad.

CATCH AND EAT · 08-22-2003, 06:54 AM

Hey Dan Hope it was the dude I went out with a few weeks back. Sounds about like something he would pull. This is a pathetic story.

Notify ODFW, Oregon STATE Marine Board and the sheriff. If you notify Oregon State Marine Board they are required to go directly to the boat captain for answers. He will have 30 days to respond. No excuse for these charters treating folks like this.

OceanBlue · 08-22-2003, 07:00 AM

Aargh!

I've forwarded this thread to ODFW. (likely, they've already seen it).

Post the boat name and skipper, please. (be sure to sign your name to the post, though)

SKP · 08-22-2003, 07:57 AM

The boat was the Mariner, but I am not sure what company that boat is with.

Anyone have any similar experiences? Please post. I'll never go on that boat. What a disgrace.

I'll give my friend the responses from Ifish, this is very helpful.

Steve Preston
SKP

[ 08-22-2003, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: SKP ]

kamloops · 08-22-2003, 08:33 AM

Sounds like another good reason to support the
I-Fish member guides and Charter boats.
Nothing much has changed in Depoe Bay since Charters began running out of there.
I have fished and witness 1st hand the "No Touch"
policy. I can't see much fun in fishing that way, but they need to make a living and if people are happy to fish that way than ?????.
Tackle Time and the other sponsers would be happy to have the extra customers, let them fish with rods in their hands, send-em up this way, I have not seen better Silver/Tuna fishing in 40 years.
I know there are excellent boats and guides in Depoe and Newport, most of them are I-Fish members, why use anyone else?
As far as wasting reasourses "Natives" Call the Police or whomever will listen.

Zippy · 08-22-2003, 10:44 AM

Right on with all of it!Support the I fish sponsors and work to change the mindset of the others who don't seem to "get it". We all share in this resource.

Born to be Wild · 08-22-2003, 10:47 AM

Quote:

The boat was the Mariner, but I am not sure what company that boat is with.

SKP,

Sorry to hear about your friends experience.
I got back up in the wee hours of the morning being bothered about this and sent you an email listing the 5 boats that I had narrowed my list of canadates to.

The Mariner was not my first choice but he was on the list. The Mariner runs for Depoe Bay Tradewinds. Not to get mixed up with Dockside Charters where it used to be owned and ran by Jim Tate out of there for years. Jim sold the boat to Craig Calkins a couple years ago and is now ran by "Dickie Bird" or better known as "Prime Time Dickey Bird" from all the years he ran the Prime Time. I have had nothing but problems with this guy since I moved here some 8 or 9 years ago.

I was invited to go on a "fun" coho trip the last evening of the season a couple years ago on the Prime Time and he did not have a deck hand with him for this trip. I can remember as if it were yesterday him (the skipper) netting a coho, slamming it out of the net, hearing a big thud when the coho hitting the deck, him putting the net away and returning only to say; "uh this one has a fin, it's got to go back". After being handled on the deck and hook removed the wild or non fin clipped coho was returned to the ocean. I've made comments over the years he might as well have clubbed the fish.

This guy should know better as he is guiding in the rivers these days in the off season (mostly and possibly only the Siletz River). I don't know of a single river guide that handles his fish in that manner when releasing a fish.

I just don't understand it!

Lance Kruzic from NOAA called me a little while ago regarding a possible fishery at Siltcoos Lake and Tahkenitch Lake on wild coho this fall/winter. He put two and two together and asked me if I was the DepoeBayDan on ifish! I laughed and said; "who, not me". I told him yes I was the guilty one. :grin:
Another fisheries official that is reading ifish.net.

I told him about this new troublesome thread that I wasn't proud of but very concerned about and we got into a lenghly disscussion.

I'm emailing him the URL for this one and a few others after I get done with this reply.

He agrees that there is work to be done here and he will stir me to the right folks (and I believe he is one of them) to hopefully make some improvement on the miss-handling of wild or non fin clipped coho.

I don't want anyone to think of me as a snitch but I have been bothered by the miss-handling of wild coho for years and tried on my own to make a difference with little success. I can't tollerate the idea of many wild coho needlessly being killed out there in the salt. And that is all it is, needless waste of our very valuable wild coho.

As of August 17th 107,613 coho have been estimated to be caught and released! How many didn't make it?

These guys are shooting themselves in the foot in more than one way. Their future salmon fishery (coho and chinook) depends on the health of the wild coho stocks. The bad publicity they are recieving has a negative impact on them.

Regardless of the charters, our (us non charter boat fishermen) fisheries in the salt and in freshwater depend on the health of the OCN's. This behavior affects us also.

I have lots of things to do today but will leave you with both the post by Lost Sailor on ifish earlier this year and the Oregonian article by Bill Monroe last year that I turned over to the Charter boat Association President Wayne Butler earlier this year at the Salmon Industry Group Meeting.

Dano

Quote:

went on the ocean on a charter last season, and I was extremely distressed about the handling of wild coho. Fewer wild fish would have died if we had just been allowed to keep them, the catch was about 2-to-1 wild. They were netted, flung on the deck, held down with a boot, hooks yanked out, and pitched to the following sea lion. I watched the deck hand slice the adipose fin off of one before he kicked it off the deck.

I won't be paying $75 for that experience (with an ifish sponsor) again, but if anything related comes up at the meeting ... I don't know what the solution is, a limited allowance for wild fish, better enforcement on charter boats ... :whazzup: :whazzup:

[ 03-05-2003, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: lost_sailor ]

Oregonian article July 21, 2002:

Keeping it down when swells are up

Jeers: An alarming number of charter skippers and crews have been boating coho with adipose fins and, in some cases, tossing them aside on the deck to handle keepers first, before tossing them back overboard after way too much handling.
Wild coho should be released in the water, without even being netted. A simple tool consisting of a coat hangar wire with a hook at the end stuck into a pole, can catch the barbless hook in the fish's mouth, work down the shank to the bend and carefully pull it free without much damage.
Biologists already have heard reports from many customers and recently made a special point of talking to charter owners through their associations.
If it gets too bad, maybe none of us will have to worry about it.
...We won't be invited back on the water.

Born to be Wild · 08-22-2003, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Sounds like another good reason to support the
I-Fish member guides and Charter boats.

Kamloops and Zippy,

If you notice in the post by Lost Sailor that I posted and took to the March ODFW meeting he stated his bad experience took place on a charter boat that is or at least was an ifish sponsor.

Dan

Born to be Wild · 08-22-2003, 01:18 PM

Originally posted 6/23/03

Quote:

Tomorrow the coho season opens. Every wild coho that is released unharmed is very important to all fishermen. All fishermen!!! The more that survive, the more that spawn. The more wild coho that spawn, the better chances we have of a larger run. The larger run of wild coho enhances the future of hatchery coho fishing in the ocean and the probable fishery of wild coho in the ocean and the rivers.

Treat these wild coho like you would a wild steelhead because I feel certain you will intercept them and probably or possibly on a one to one basis.

Try to avoid netting them if you can, and if you can�t, buy a fish friendly net. But best for survival are to release them in the water.

Regardless if you are on a charter boat or private boat, let them know they are handling them wrong and abusive if that is the case. These fish are very important whether you realize it or not and will make the difference of fresh and saltwater fisheries in the future!

OK, I'm done ranting! Got fish to go catch.

Dano

SEA DOG · 08-22-2003, 01:38 PM

The Oregon charters are not the only guilty partys. The Ilwaco charter fleet also has it's culprits. Recently, one of the SEA BEEEZE boats had a full private party booking that revealed to WDFW officers that ALL coho were netted, and sorted out after the clipped fish were put away.

MORTALITY RATE .......NEARLY 100%

A suggestion to both OSP and WDFW would be to place an undercover officer on one of the boats. If that practice than took place, the resulting fines and embaressment would start the ball rolling in the right direction.

Pete · 08-22-2003, 01:45 PM

Just a reminder, it is Ifish policy that if you complain about a business on Ifish.net, you must include your full real name in the post. It isn't fair to allow relatively anonymous attacks on businesses. Providing your name gives the business some way of responding to the complaint and helps avoid malicious or frivolous complaints.

The policy is stated at:
Ifish complaint policy

Born to be Wild · 08-22-2003, 02:34 PM

OK Pete. If mine is needed for one reason or another I think they all know who I am.

Dan Dettmann

Depoe Bay, Oregon

Quote:

A suggestion to both OSP and WDFW would be to place an undercover officer on one of the boats. If that practice than took place, the resulting fines and embaressment would start the ball rolling in the right direction.

Problem is Sea Dog it is not illegal for a wild coho to be netted out there in the salt and the other miss-handling practices. Although I believe the reg's say released unharmed which we know isn't happening a good share of the time.

Sometimes you can't help from harming a wild coho just by the way it is hooked. But we all know better and this behavior is inexcusable.

I feel a lot of them don't deserve the opportunity to fish coho out there at this time but if they lost the fishery due to their irresponsible behavior that would mean the rest of the charter fleet and private sportsman that are responsible would lose their opportunity also.

I just ran off several copies of several very good articles, reports and a new scientific report I recieved yesterday that shows the DNA genetic testing that was done in Washington on Clackamas River wild winter steelhead, Clackamas hatchery summer steelhead and Clackamas hatchery winter steelhead. The report identifies all three strains of steelhead in the Clack through DNA and tells an interesting story of the decline of Clackamas wild winter steelhead.

I'm hoping these charter bio's are willing to read through all the scientific reports that I am taking down there and I will inform them that some of their charter boat cousins are in the spotlight again.

These reports I have are of some of the best and very conclusive of the differences of wild and hatchery fish and the importance of the wild fish.

Hope it opens some eyes and ears and changes some attitudes!

Fishing Bouy 10, 12, or 14 with an ifisher tomorrow and I'm not all that excited about it and wished I hadn't commited. I need to get out of here in a couple hours.

If someone is willing to take my place I could try and call Skipper on his cell and OK it for you.

Jerry Dove is down there also and wouldn't mind drinking a "Mountain Dew" with him. :grin:

Dan

Day 41 I believe. Lost track!

SKP · 08-22-2003, 02:56 PM

DepoeBayDan,

What does day 41 mean?

SKP

SEA DOG · 08-22-2003, 03:44 PM

DepoeBayDan....

My previous post regarding specific netting practices has standing.

If you check the WDFW website, under Sportfishing Regulation Changes......it is detailed that any salmon to be released CANNOT be brought into the boat.

The charter experience that I previously mentioned cited that ALL fish were brought on board, and than culled.

This is in direct violation of the existing regs, not to mention that it torpedos the very future of their own existance.

Born to be Wild · 08-22-2003, 06:44 PM

Quote:

DepoeBayDan....

My previous post regarding specific netting practices has standing.

If you check the WDFW website, under Sportfishing Regulation Changes......it is detailed that any salmon to be released CANNOT be brought into the boat.

The charter experience that I previously mentioned cited that ALL fish were brought on board, and than culled.

This is in direct violation of the existing regs, not to mention that it torpedos the very future of their own existance.

Good post Sea Dog.

I had heard rumors that up in Washington that it is illegal to net a wild fish or boat a wild fish but don't fish the salt up there. I do fish the freshwater extensively though and am curious if the netting regulation is in affect in freshwater also.

Last year I had to turn loose approx. 25 non fin clipped silvers on the Cowlitz River and all of those were caught on Brad's Wiggler's with the two stock treble hooks that came with them. Often times they would inhale the plug getting both trebles inside their mouths and their mouths were buttoned shut. Unfortunately I was forced to net some of these coho's to remove the two trebles from their mouth. This year I am going to try the single siwash hook instead that has been proven effective. I use a siwash on all my spinners whether they are required or not here in Oregon and up in Washington.

The confusion came from me pointing out that here in Oregon where this poor practice of netting and boating of wild fish is taking place is legal. I would like to see it changed here to Washington regulation standards and have voiced my opinion on that to different ODFW bio's and at least one of them is against that regulation. He has told me that it can be difficult identifying the adipose or lack of in the water especially if it is rough. He felt that he didn't want an honest person accidentally breaking the law by netting and boating a wild fish. This is true but I found out this season that you can grab the leader and wait �till the fish settles down and then count his scales if you wanted too. :grin: Never lost a single fish that way this season! A couple boats I fished on didn't even get out the net once the fin clip was identified and just gently pulled the fish by the leader into the boat. Nancy (Sea Jypzee) was one of those that did that. (She's pretty salty though). :grin:

One of the ifisher's I fished with insisted on netting the fish and then identifying them even after we used the other method of holding the leader to identify them successfully prior to that. He left the netted fish in the water but that wasn't necessary. We had caught a limit of 6 in an hour and a half's time and even had we lost one that way we could have easily picked up one more fish anyway.

I know some folks get a little excited out there and I was one of them early on in the season but it is only a coho and think of the implications of killing the wild ones by netting or extra handling.

I am one that now that you pointed out the non netting regulation or non boarding (boating) regulation in Washington regarding wild fish will push harder for ODFW to implement that here also even though I am about to become a Washington resident. If Washington can do it than so can we. That would alleviate the problem of netting and then slamming them down on the deck "charter boat style".

Again not all charters are the same. I went out with Loren on the Affair (Dockside Charters) a couple days ago and he released the wild ones in the water with the gaff method. It's pretty slick and usually with one quick pull the hook pops out and the fish immediately is off and running (swimming).

Unlike some of the netted fish I have seen!

SKP,

It has been 41 days since I successfully put an end to my drinking problem. Now I have to work on the tobacco thing.

Dan

Sea Jypzee · 08-22-2003, 07:17 PM

Quote:

The confusion came from me pointing out that here in Oregon where this poor practice of netting and boating of wild fish is taking place is legal. I would like to see it changed here to Washington regulation standards and have voiced my opinion on that to different ODFW bio's and at least one of them is against that regulation. He has told me that it can be difficult identifying the adipose or lack of in the water especially if it is rough. He felt that he didn't want an honest person accidentally breaking the law by netting and boating a wild fish. This is true but I found out this season that you can grab the leader and wait �till the fish settles down and then count his scales if you wanted too. Never lost a single fish that way this season! A couple boats I fished on didn't even get out the net once the fin clip was identified and just gently pulled the fish by the leader into the boat. Nancy (Sea Jypzee) was one of those that did that. (She's pretty salty though).

I thought I heard my name being used somewhere. My nose was itching.

As for identifying the fish in the water. I'd say it's possible about 80% of the time. The problem is that there are still those other 20% that there is just no way to properly ID the fish without boating it and checking it out. Either they're just too 'wild' in the water and you can't get a good view of it, or as we've seen a few times when the light isn't good, you just can't see the fin in the water. I rarely actually use a net on coho. Most of them I've been able to just bring in over the side of the boat and onto the deck. Often, once I bring it up out of the water, I can then spot if there's a fin or not, and return it to the water quickly if there is. Only the larger fish have I usually even bothered to use a net on.

The problem with changing the law to make it illegal to even boat a wild fish is that you're going to have a lot of people breaking the law just because there's sometimes almost no other way to see the fish well enough to tell. I think it's more important to teach people to properly handle the fish in the first place, so as to not damage them if at all possible. I agree though, this doesn't help for those charter folks who just net the fish regardless and slap them down hard.