Cow hunt let down...

Blackbeardown · 11-29-2008, 08:28 AM

I am feeling pretty bummed right now. Last day of the hunt yesterday over here in NEO...I have my 14 year old with me. Shooting a bolt 30-30 with 160 grain lever evolution rounds. He shoots a 1.5" group at 100 yards with it.

We find a large herd at 2pm yesterday...heard them cow calling. Sneaking though a pine thicket we close the gap to 400 yards. They are lined out moving slowly from right to left through some young ponderosa's. We duck down and close the gap some more. We have a large meadow between us and the elk so I knew it would be a longish shot. We made it to a leaner pine snag and I got my boy set up for the shot. A bit over 200 yards with a cow broadside feeding. The elk did not know we were there. The rifle is sighted in dead on at 200 yards. Knowing that that round has plenty of energy for an elk at 200 yards I told my boy to take the shot when he was ready. With a dead rest my boy touches off the shot and the elk squats a bit...turns with her head up and takes off with the rest of the herd. Hard to tell if she is hit at this time. We get over to where she was standing and in about 5 minutes I find blood...a little bit at first and then it picks up. I notice small bubbles in the blood. After about 50 yards I start to see blood on both sides of the tracks...a good sign I am thinking. After 150 yards of steady blood it stops bleeding...STOPS! Hands and knees for an hour reveals nothing. Ground is frozen and with a herd of over 30 animals hard to know which track is which. I have a buddy with me and the three of us scour the hillside for over 3 hours gridding back and forth. We started with a short grid at first...certain she was down in the timber. Without luck we extended our grid over a much larger area until we could not see anymore and with our heads hung low...sauntered back to the truck.

I am at a total loss as to what happened.but I have my thoughts. Best I can tell he hit it high and maybe caught the top of the lungs. It wasn't gut blood. Once we lost blood we gridded an incredible amount of ground but was not able to find her. We caught the tracks of the herd and followed them for a long ways. We even gridded hard away from the herd knowing that a sick animal usually falls back and away from the others.

I'm sick about it. This isn't how I wanted to see the season end for my boy. I have asked myself numerous times if we could or would have done something different...I don't think so.

jnicholson · 11-29-2008, 08:33 AM

Don't beat yourself up. Unfortunately that happens sometimes.

Good job getting your son out there in the first place.

John and Bucky

No Fences · 11-29-2008, 08:40 AM

You may try going back out there today and lok for birds. Dead give away. Even if you don't salvage the animal, there can be a lot to learn by finding it.

BrushApe · 11-29-2008, 10:57 AM

Thats a tough one. From your discription of the blood trail, she is most likely down. She just went into a brush pile or depression and disappeared on you. The key is the last blood, she has to be close. Scan the terrain, think one last dash. A few years back a neighbor camp shot a 5pt bull. Were convinced it went "that way". One of our party helped them look side hill ("that way") for several hours, nothing. Next day we found it less than forty yards straight uphill from ground zero in a large depression in the ground. Guys had looked right over the top of it rack and all. If you look off across an open hillside, don't be fooled into thinking she isn't laying out there, dosn't take much of a depression to hide it.

my

BA

baltz526 · 11-29-2008, 11:05 AM

i would be at last blood right now, not on my computer

DC · 11-29-2008, 12:06 PM

Unfortunate event especially for a young hunter. My thought is that a 30-30 may be a little light for elk at 200 yds. True a lot of elk have been taken in the past with that caliber, but an elk is a pretty tough animal. Especially if the shot is long and the hit is not exactly where one would like it to be. The old rule of thumb for elk was 270 or larger. The 270 is flat shooting and retains a lot of energy out at 200. It will do the job whetr the 30-30 can not achieve the quick, clean kill we all desire. The 270 also has very light recoil when compared to a 30-06, so it makes a very good youth rifle. Just a thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackbeardown

I am feeling pretty bummed right now. Last day of the hunt yesterday over here in NEO...I have my 14 year old with me. Shooting a bolt 30-30 with 160 grain lever evolution rounds. He shoots a 1.5" group at 100 yards with it.

We find a large herd at 2pm yesterday...heard them cow calling. Sneaking though a pine thicket we close the gap to 400 yards. They are lined out moving slowly from right to left through some young ponderosa's. We duck down and close the gap some more. We have a large meadow between us and the elk so I knew it would be a longish shot. We made it to a leaner pine snag and I got my boy set up for the shot. A bit over 200 yards with a cow broadside feeding. The elk did not know we were there. The rifle is sighted in dead on at 200 yards. Knowing that that round has plenty of energy for an elk at 200 yards I told my boy to take the shot when he was ready. With a dead rest my boy touches off the shot and the elk squats a bit...turns with her head up and takes off with the rest of the herd. Hard to tell if she is hit at this time. We get over to where she was standing and in about 5 minutes I find blood...a little bit at first and then it picks up. I notice small bubbles in the blood. After about 50 yards I start to see blood on both sides of the tracks...a good sign I am thinking. After 150 yards of steady blood it stops bleeding...STOPS! Hands and knees for an hour reveals nothing. Ground is frozen and with a herd of over 30 animals hard to know which track is which. I have a buddy with me and the three of us scour the hillside for over 3 hours gridding back and forth. We started with a short grid at first...certain she was down in the timber. Without luck we extended our grid over a much larger area until we could not see anymore and with our heads hung low...sauntered back to the truck.

I am at a total loss as to what happened.but I have my thoughts. Best I can tell he hit it high and maybe caught the top of the lungs. It wasn't gut blood. Once we lost blood we gridded an incredible amount of ground but was not able to find her. We caught the tracks of the herd and followed them for a long ways. We even gridded hard away from the herd knowing that a sick animal usually falls back and away from the others.

I'm sick about it. This isn't how I wanted to see the season end for my boy. I have asked myself numerous times if we could or would have done something different...I don't think so.

Blackbeardown · 11-29-2008, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baltz526

i would be at last blood right now, not on my computer

Baltz...with all due respect...your assumption (accusation) is in error.

My son and I were on last blood this morning 10 minutes before we could see our boots on the ground. We searched hard for almost 2.5 hours before I had to come home for a commitment. Once that commitment was complete...I was back on "last blood" within 45 minutes. And I was there until now. I am no Greenhorn at this hunting stuff...I am not an expert tracker, but I do OK. Still...we couldn't find the elk. My son and I have had several deep talks about this and I think he now understands that this event is possible in hunting...he is living it right now. Unfortunately, it happened on his first elk hunt. I was on the verge of losing him because he was pretty upset...but I think our talks have outweighed the hurt and frustration and he will hunt again.

Listen...I have read many of your posts and through those I have gained respect for you and your wisdom. But...I will not sit back and let you take pot shots at me if you don't have all the facts...especially in this kind of forum.

My apologies if I did not give out all the facts in the first post...I was in a hurry to get back out there.

Respectfully

BBD

scottishsetter · 11-29-2008, 03:08 PM

From the 'last blood' is there an avenue downhill?

An elk can cover a distance downhill if hit in the lung and holding in the breath/blood. Sad to hear.Good Luck

baltz526 · 11-29-2008, 03:16 PM

it is still daylight, why are you on computer

baltz526 · 11-29-2008, 03:18 PM

PS: i would take my dog for a walk

Silverback · 11-30-2008, 01:15 PM

I've had to do that on more than one occasion and never had it fail !!!!!!!

SImudBogger · 11-30-2008, 03:04 PM

200 yards with open sights is quite a stretch for a .30-30 on an elk. Doesn't take much at that range to throw the shot off a foot or two, especially from an excited kid.

otterduck1 · 11-30-2008, 04:22 PM

That's a bummer!
I've been in a similar situation.

Two things I would recommend:

-Use a harder hitting round. Yes, its true the venerable .30-.30 has taken elk at that range, but it doesn't mean that's its great. The leverevolution is a little better though. It's tough to figure out what to have for one gun (deer and elk), but do the research for both. WWW.remington.com has an excellent ballistic chart and downloadable ballistic software.

- The one thing I learned from "my similar experience" is when a lung shot is apparent sit down and chill out for awhile (at least .5 hr- this is hard but stick it out). Look over the landscape, let the adrenaline go down, and look for the path of least resistance that an animal may take. Ungulates can really go for awhile if driven by adrenaline. Avoid being seen after the shot. The other comment about brush holes and depressions are excellent. Not only that, its not too uncommon to have those kind of holes seal up.

If anything, the feeling you and your son have I'm sure will strengthen your committment.

Blackbeardown · 11-30-2008, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SImudBogger

200 yards with open sights is quite a stretch for a .30-30 on an elk. Doesn't take much at that range to throw the shot off a foot or two, especially from an excited kid.

Scoped bolt action 30-30

BroncoIIfan · 11-30-2008, 05:47 PM

Ease up on the guy. If you are going to criticize, make it constructive. I am sure he and his son feel bad enough without having some people here make it worse. It is replies like some of those here that make me not post too much here. He is just trying to tell a story, stop fixating on the negatives and help him focus on the positive points here that he teach to his son.

Keep up the good work teaching your son. He will be a better hunter knowing that you don't give up on an animal until you have exhausted all your resources.

SImudBogger · 11-30-2008, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackbeardown

Scoped bolt action 30-30

sorry, i don't know where i got the open sight thing from. Was it an old savage rifle? My grandpa has an old savage bolt action .30-30, its a cool gun.

jaxflyfish · 11-30-2008, 06:41 PM

The weather has been pretty good. I would head back out looking for magpies and crows...

Good luck ....first deer i ever shot, I lost. That was 1988 and I haven't lost an animal since. Although I shot a nice buck antelope this year and spent 4 hours tracking him down and i finally got him..

Spend time with your son...walking him through it...he will be a better hunter for it in the long run.

Quaka Wacka · 11-30-2008, 10:20 PM

I would be back looking with the dog too. And if your following a herd, a sick animal will often drop off and hold up in the brush.

I'd also think that the 30-30 might be a bit on the light side for that range, scoped or not. A good rule of thumb for the maximum range (minimum energy requirements) of any load/rifle is when it drops below 1200 ft/lbs for elk and 1000ft/lbs for deer. I've always used these numbers as a guide. Not sure where your load falls, but it might be right on the border.

I'd keep looking if you are able too, you just never know.

Trick · 12-01-2008, 04:48 AM

Don't beat yourself up over it. You put forth a concerted and well thought out effort......it wasn't meant to be. I can promise you that the meat is long since spoiled at this point and this animal will fall into another circle of the food chain. Nothing is ever wasted in nature.

Taking the dog for a walk wouldn't be a bad idea just to answer those lingering questions. Of course if your animal is as mentally deficient as mine it still wouldn't do you any good.

Sounds like you've kept encouraging your son through it and that is the most important part. We need those future hunters to keep our heritage alive. Good job Dad!

As far as the caliber....You and your son know and trust the weapon....Good enough for you....good enough for me.

Wish I had more ideas for you, but you've done nearly everything I would have. Like was said before....maybe grab the dog.

Thanks for sharing your plight....Good luck!

bigjake_888 · 12-01-2008, 06:18 AM

I told a story like this to an old timer and all he said was you shouldn't talk about that stuff.

dwsurfer · 12-01-2008, 06:21 AM

the bulllet and distance for an elk is fine for that rifle

200 yrds v-fps/1916 e-ft-lbs/1304.

But I am sure you know that already just wanted to clear that up for others.

take the dog for a walk

Blackbeardown · 12-01-2008, 11:28 AM

Dwsurfer...you are correct with your ft/lbs.

scottishsetter · 12-01-2008, 03:00 PM

Look for the 'wild-dog' tracks; they know where the elk is.
If it was lung blood ie. bubbles,,, that elk is dead on the ground.

Ben Hur · 12-01-2008, 06:41 PM

Wow what a shame for your son to lose a cow elk on the last day. I'll bet a 30-30 has killed more elk than any other gun ever. The part you said about the blood on both side of the tracks has me intrigued. I killed a buck and followed the blood trail on both side of the tracks out into the middle of an open field and it stopped cold, no blood. More blood than you could image a deer holding swath 5-6 ft. wide. I went back to the spot where I hit it and found blood but not as much going in the opposite direction and followed that trail now with almost no blood except blood in the hoof print to a brush pile 20 ft. from where I hit it and he was there dead as a door knob. He had jumped the last 10 ft. sideways into the brush pile. If you find her please let us all learn from what happened so we have a better chance to find an animal in the future, this could be a very good learning experience for most of what I've read so far. Real good could come from what sounds like a very disheartening situation.

KingSlew · 12-01-2008, 06:54 PM

I think I might know what happened.

I bet the shot was through a ham (blood on both sides of track). "With a dead rest my boy touches off the shot and the elk squats a bit...turns with her head up and takes off with the rest of the herd."

Muscle hits typically aerate the blood giving the false impression of a lung hit. At that range, that round won't do a lot of tissue damage, so don't bother looking anymore for that cow, she'll heal up.

There, I've solved it...lol! I feel better now. (grin)

otterduck1 · 12-01-2008, 07:17 PM

Call me a snob, but the common 30.06 has on average 1,000 more ft/lbs at 200 yards and folks have lost elk with that round also (currently what I use). And those who really get into elk pounding use the mags and those get at least several hundred more than the 30.06.

Just a recommendation,
I feel for them. I shot a deer with 00 buck once just like 1000's have but I lost it. Even though it was a close shot and it spewed a pile of blood. It sealed up- tracked and looked for it for hours until it got dark. Even came back the next day with my dog. Nothing. Made me sick and the memory of it still makes me sick. Hard for me to even fess up to it. Point being- I'm never using that round again. Decent round- not great. That's my analogy.

Of course it also all boils down to where its hit. I bet I could kill an elk with my 22/250- of course I'm not going to try

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwsurfer

the bulllet and distance for an elk is fine for that rifle

200 yrds v-fps/1916 e-ft-lbs/1304.

But I am sure you know that already just wanted to clear that up for others.

take the dog for a walk