E-Collar Help

[Benny]

I did a forum search but didn't seem to locate any posts (weird?). I know the upland guys & duck guys have experience with them, though.

My question is what am I going to be looking at, and where should I be looking? In life price reflects quality almost always, but do I need a $230 dogtra?

Also, is the range in the description usually accurate? I would think almost anyone could get by with a 1/2 mile collar if so.

Thanks guys/gals

[arkansasbasser]

Originally Posted by Benny

I did a forum search but didn't seem to locate any posts (weird?). I know the upland guys & duck guys have experience with them, though.

My question is what am I going to be looking at, and where should I be looking? In life price reflects quality almost always, but do I need a $230 dogtra?

Also, is the range in the description usually accurate? I would think almost anyone could get by with a 1/2 mile collar if so.

Thanks guys/gals

What is your purpose for the collar? Pet training or hunting?

[jnicholson]

Read the manual, Reread the manual after you get it! Most of the proper training is about the handler not the dog. Make sure you know more about the psychology of training with the collar than the function of how it works.

Use it on yourself so you know what you are doing to your dog. After I did that I made everyone in my family know that no dog gets a nick on anything over a 5 ever. I went all the way to 10 with my Sportdog on my leg and just about rebooted my whole nervous system! Wow.

I am a strong believer in proper e-collar training and my dogs love to wear the collar because they know they are going for some fun.

If Bucky starts being naughty in the field usually all I have to do is point to the transmitter and he becomes the perfect dog again. Sometimes I hold it up or make a motion of my hand going to my side and he's 100% pro.

We use the chime for a "return to me immediately" command all the time. It is also a reminder that I'm in charge ... not him. If I'm chiming him he know I also have the ability to nick.

To give you an idea of how often he gets nicked now ... maybe 3 to 5 times this season on 2 or 3 setting. That's it. The fear of the nick for being naughty is enough. Just like my brother and I feared the belt when we were growing up. We rarely got it but when Mom brought it up ... well we became perfect kids for a while.

I've nicked my hand a dozen or so times at least just to make sure that function was working. I keep it on 1 but it's still wakes me up.

Congratulations on your decision to train responsibly with an e-collar.

John and Bucky

[Pelhament]

Do you keep the e-Collars on the dog at all times? If not, does your dog seem less likely to obey when it is off.

[Benny]

Training and hunting.

I've never had a dog before, but for almost 5 months now I've been reading Pointers Journal (great magazine!), and I have a basic idea that the e-collar and check cord act as compliments not substitutes for good dog training.

So nicholson made a point about the importance of the chime feature, which hadn't occurred to me. Are there any brand preferences?

I'm still wondering about the need to spend hundreds of dollars or if the lesser water proof/short range models are suitable?

*Also I should have made it clear, this is research before I pick up the dog. I don't have a CLUE what it will do or how it has responded. I'll know soon, though. I just wanted to look for a good one to be prepared.

[FrogPond]

I have a Dogtra collar for our GSP. It has a page function that just vibrates the collar. It is rare that I have to do much more than that to get her attention. Very rarely will I have to 'nick' her. I have never touched the continuous button. I really like the page feature.

[arkansasbasser]

Originally Posted by Benny

Training and hunting.

I've never had a dog before, but for almost 5 months now I've been reading Pointers Journal (great magazine!), and I have a basic idea that the e-collar and check cord act as compliments not substitutes for good dog training.

So nicholson made a point about the importance of the chime feature, which hadn't occurred to me. Are there any brand preferences?

I'm still wondering about the need to spend hundreds of dollars or if the lesser water proof/short range models are suitable?

*Also I should have made it clear, this is research before I pick up the dog. I don't have a CLUE what it will do or how it has responded. I'll know soon, though. I just wanted to look for a good one to be prepared.

The ranges given are for flat terrain with no obstacles in the way. One with a 1/2 mile range should work for most training needs. I have one that has a mile range, just to be sure. If my dog should stray far while hunting up an unseen fall, I want to be sure that he comes back to me if the whistle doesn't do the job. Sometimes the dog is so caught up with the hunt and being determined to bring back the bird that he will ignore the whistle. I had a PetSafe model a couple of years ago. The price was right but it didn't last a year. So, I have a Sport Basic G3 by Innotek now and am very happy with it. It also let's me use up to 3 collars on different dogs if I choose. Seems like I paid around 2 or 2 1/2 for it. It also has the chime feature.

[RGB]

I have the Tri-Tronics Sport Basic, it's a great collar. I rarely need to stimulate the dog. I just use the buzzer to get his attention. I wouldn't buy one that isn't 100% water proof.

[DogZilla15]

The TT Sport Classic is pretty much the "cat's meow" for entry level collars. Had a great audible tone for teaching commands without volts. The next best collar is the TT Pro 100 G-3.

Training tip:
Make sure the dog knows "ALL" commands thoroughly before teaching with the e-collar.

Your comment on the check cord is way off base. There is no substitute for actual hunting.

[Jonah's Revenge]

Originally Posted by Benny

My question is what am I going to be looking at, and where should I be looking? In life price reflects quality almost always, but do I need a $230 dogtra?

Also, is the range in the description usually accurate? I would think almost anyone could get by with a 1/2 mile collar if so.

Thanks guys/gals

Buy a reputable one and you won't be sorry. I would HIGHLY recommend TriTronics. I have a Pro 100 that I bought used(it's 10+ years old), works exceptionally well and the customer service is outstanding. I was missing the plug that covers the charger port, and they sent me multiple spares for free. If you need service or batteries fixed, thatis cheaper than buying a new one. The lower models of e-collars are disposable. A friend of mine had to throw his away becasue the battery went dead. Now he owns a TriTronics.
A 1/2 mile range is not that much. I'm guessing from your post that you're getting a pointer. They shure can run fast (and away from you) real quick

Do you need a transmitter that has a ton of options? Depends on how much training you're going to do.

Hope that answers your questions.

[jnicholson]

Originally Posted by Pelhament

Do you keep the e-Collars on the dog at all times? If not, does your dog seem less likely to obey when it is off.

Oh yes, he knows now if the collar isn't on he can be a little naughty.

The only time I would suggest they wear the collar all the time is when you first get it. I let him wear it a week straight before any functions were used. I know that was part of the recommendations. It took him quite a while to realize I had to have the transmitter and he had to have the collar on for it all to work.

Bucky and the other dogs wear it when ever we hunt or go to dog events. It's part of his hunting and jumping stuff and the dogs all try to put their head in the first e-collar I pull out of the closet. They know it's time for fun.

It took Bucky till he was three before he realized that me just holding the transmitter wasn't enough, he figured out he had to have the collar on too or I couldn't touch him. During a show the collars aren't allowed on the dock. He really likes to tease me on the dock at jumping shows because he knows he can do a little scooching and make the girls giggle and I can't do a thing about it. No collar when hunting and it's a 50/50 chance he'll break before command.

The probs on the collar can really prevent the dog from wearing it all the time. I've seen dogs after just one day have terrible raw spots from rubbing. Be careful about that. Some dogs are just more sensitive than others. A hot day in the field can make some dogs break out right under the box. I saw one dog that the owner had to shave the area and treat it with lotion his skin reacted so badly to the sweat and box. Dogs can be like people in that some things irritate one person and are no big deal on the next.

I also go to the dollar store and buy glow sticks. He wears glow sticks in the dark so I can see where he's at in the field or God forbid we should ever get seperated on the water in the dark.

Glow sticks are just another safety item like the e-collar is in many circumstances.

John and Bucky

[Linejerk]

Try this


http://www.ifish.net/board/showthrea...ghlight=collar

[Pelhament]

Thanks John, great explanation!

[Benny]

Originally Posted by Linejerk

Try this


http://www.ifish.net/board/showthrea...ghlight=collar

I knew there was a thread around here! Thanks jerk

However, there was definitely something new to me in someones situational example in which after a dog runs away with a bird that's been shot, do you "nick" the dog or continue to repeat "come." I definitely fell into the category of "nick" because I assumed that that was a reinforcement "nick." There was no definitive answer, so I'm left hanging.

Help me out?

[Don Fischer]

Originally Posted by Benny

Training and hunting.

I've never had a dog before, but for almost 5 months now I've been reading Pointers Journal (great magazine!), and I have a basic idea that the e-collar and check cord act as compliments not substitutes for good dog training.

The check cord is a training tool that lets you enforce and teach commands away from you. Once those commands are learned, you overlay the e-collar and the e-collar becomes an extension of your check cord. I would suggest as basic a collar as you can get. to many options leaves me wondering which button to push or which switch to move when I should be thinking about what the dog is doing. I have two collars now, a Dogtra 1500 and a TT Pro 100. The Pro 100 has three buttons on it, a nic button and two constant buttons. The two constant buttons will allow you to up the nic intensity without changing the setting. Simply don't hold the constant buttons down and they will nic only as long as you hold them, instant nic as opposed to the older TT's that had a one sec delay and nicing was a nightmare. The Dogtra can be less expensive depending on which one you get. Mine doesn't have instant shock so trying to nic with the constant button is a chore, don't do it.

The Pro 100 has a 1 mile range, the Dogtra 1500 1/2 mile. I don't find 1/2 mile a disadvantage. You got a dog out past where you can get it with 1/2 mi range, your not training, your watching your dog run. But I do like the size of the TT Pro 100 a lot better. When not in use, it slides into my back pocket and is easy to find. The Dogtra can disappear in my vest pocket and and back pocket, unhandy to get to quick if you need it. It's also not as handy to change intensity on as the TT. TT does have the smaller transmitters too, I would not get one.

The best collar I ever had was a DT systems mod 300. It had one button and instant shock. Slid into my back pocket too. The beauty of it was it's simplicity. The modern collars can be full of lots of things that just confuse me. All I want is to be able to reach out and touch the dog if it gets out of hand during training. Once the dog is trained and has a year of wild birds on it, I don't use the collar anymore. Rather I trust that the dog is properly trained and doing what its supposed to. They don't always but them my kids don't always mind either yet sooner or later you gotta give them their head and trust.

[llama77]

Benny,
With all due respect to Rimrock, hes wrong about correcting a dog with a bird in its mouth, at least a properly collar conditioned dog.

He admits that he conditions to two commands so his just not familiar with other uses of the collar.

When using an e-collar you need to keep this in mind. Training is about conditioning. For the most part you will only use the collar to reinforce known commands.

I start pups by going to "school". Same place in the yard and we start with sit on a leash. Then we go to "heel",walking at my side then coming to me from a remote sit, still on a leash or check cord.

After we have this down I overlay the e-collar. Starting with continuous stimulation and working as quickly as the dog allows to nicks then to nicks only when we get a refusal.

We give them as many repetitions as we can or they tell us they need. To the point that the response to the command is "conditioned" into them.

Then I Force Fetch. I start with "hold" by using the ear pinch and quickly transition to the e-collar once they demonstrate they know what hold means. I have them walk up and down the bench carrying various objetcs, wooden bucks, hammers, dumbells broom handles etc. Everytime they drop something the power comes on until the object is placed back in the dogs mouth until they can carry a live bird without hurting it.

We then move on to "fetch", then force to pile, overs, etc....
By the time the dog has been through this they clearly understand when they are corrected with the collar that it was for violating a command.

They dont think it was the object in their mouth. Retriever folks do tons of corrections with dogs that have bumpers and birds in their mouths. They dont think its the bumper.

So in the example of the dog running around with the bird. My dog would get "heel" (cause "heel" means come all the way to me and sit by my side now!). If she refused she would get a "heel/nick". If she still refused she would get continous until she complied.

But this would be an unlikely scenario for a well conditioned dog. By the time you are working on birds the dog has had tons of retrieves and you guessed it, has been conditioned to return to you!

For a dog that has not had any collar conditioning, Rimrock may be correct, the dog might think it was the bird. But since you are going to get a good program and follow it and condition your dog properly, your dog wont be that dog, right?

[Don Fischer]

Had to go find that statement by rimrock. I'm in his corner. No way would I have hit that dog with a collar. Big problem is the dog never should have been in that situation in the first place. Obviously the dog not only doesn't retrieve but it doesn't understand "come" either. It's wearing a collar, disobeying the recall command and if that dog had been taught to retrieve properly, that never would have happened. What that dog needed was to be rounded up and taken back to school.

The place to teach a dog is in a training field. That same dog in a training field under the same circumstances would have done the same thing. Shock that dog with the bird in its mouth and the bird did it. So the first thing that needs reinforced is the recall without the bird. when thats done then move on to teaching the retrieve. Had those two things been done properly, the situation would never have come up in the first place.

So no way would I have shocked that dog, trainer screwed up; take your beating and do it right next time. As for retriever guys shocking a dog with a bird, buck, what not in their mouth, whats the point? Not much has changed from rimrocks pointer. Why would you send a dog on a retrieve, off a cc, if the dog doesn't recall reliably? Thats asking for a cluster! Now if the dog was ff'd with the collar and it went out and refused, that's a different story. If its the first time off the table, transition to the ground, I do that on a cc. The dog has no choice of where to go when it's sent.

In my opinion rimrock is right on.

[baltz526]

TRI-TRONICS = great customer service

[Lucky Guy]

I've used the dogtra 2500 for the last year, only one I've had but it's the one the breeder/trainer recommended. It's waterproof, reliable, and I like the size and combination of features. You might talk to a trainer, they've probably tried more different ones than anybody. One brand or another might have a feature you like or don't like.

If you're going to have a trainer train the dog the trainer might be able to get one for you at a discount. He might also have a loaner if you run into a problem with one. Happened that way with me. After about 15 months my setter rammed his collar into a log at full speed, it stopped working and started rattling. Dogtra replaced it with a new one, no questions asked so no complaints there on the customer service side of things. Larry lent me one to use in the meantime and saved a weekend trip.

[sidewinder]

I have a dt 2000 t&b. Its a great collar. And the beeper is small ,but loud. It stays were it should around the dogs neck. I bought a new 2500. I don't like the beeper,and the stimulator as one unit. The sound is pointed to the ground, and in cover it is barely audible for someone as deaf as me. I like the battery bars, and some of the new features on the 2500, but I got rid of it. I have a new TTsport upland G3. It is loud, but the beeper is so heavy you need to put it on until the dogs eyes are popping out to keep it in place. In some ways. I wish I should have kept the dogtra 2500. I like a combination unit. (2 piece. beeper on the back of the neck. stimulater on the bottom) Most lab guys don't care about the beeper, but I think if you are going to run a pointing dog...for me it is a necessity. If a person could move around in silence...that would be better, but I am much more comfortable knowing were my dog is, and it helps to be able to home in on the pups when they are on point. I know this is'nt what you asked, but its something to think about.
Yes! Spend the money. As far as a shock collar. All the units I have owned have worked fine. 230.00 is a reasonable price for a collar. I would spend more. The cost is nothing compared to the food, vet bills, chewed up 300.00 leather shoes, and all the other wonderful things that you get from being a proud owner of a huntin dog.
On the range. 1/2 mi is a long way. I have never tried to shock my dogs that far away so I don't know if it works. If they are a half mi away...I'll bet you will not be able to see them under MOST circumstances. Never shock you dog if you can't see them. They might be on point 50 yds away.

[Benny]

Originally Posted by sidewinder

I know this is'nt what you asked, but its something to think about.

That's pretty sage advice, though. Thank you!

I've been looking at the Dogtra 200NCP, its 1/2 mile with low to medium power
Any thoughts?
http://www.dogtra.com/

[James in Idaho]

I'll be in the market soon, so the only two I'll look at will be Tri Tronics and the upper end Dogtra's. I train retrievers so I won't try to understand you pointer guys. Had one of those as a kid, he was the grandson of Riggins White Knight, and wow, that dog could RUN!!!!!! Retrievers are much easier. But you can't just go "correct" a dog without conditioning, except for snake breaking or porky breaking. You want those two things to be considered really, really bad deals.

[llama77]

Benny,
I dont want to hi jack the thread but since you did ask about shocking the dog with a bird in its mouth I ll continue. Hopefully it will help you understand the collar better.

Mr. Fischer,
Your avatar would suggest that you are a pointer man. Hopefully Im correct because that helps explain things a little.

For the most part I think you reiterated my post and beliefs quite well. Dogs should be properly trained and collar conditioned(if an e- collar is used) prior to field work.

Many dogs that have been properly trained to retrieve in the yard will forget their lessons in the field or get into a new situation that will require a correction. Especially youngsters but on occaision even older well trained dogs will need a reminder.

A couple of examples from the retriever world. Pup picks up the bird and starts to run around the pond instead of coming straight back. He can be corrected with the collar if he refuses to comply with either the sit or heel command. Dog goes out and picks up a bird, hes on his way back and another gets shot, so he naturally wants the last one down so he will naturally want to go get the second bird and its a pretty intense draw. Again the dog gets a correction if he ignores the commands to sit or heel, All while holding the first bird.

Or two birds down, dog picks up the first and then decides to go try and get the second one, he again gets a correction if he refuses sit or heel.

Or dog is in training and returns across the water with a bird but is rolling and messing around with it as he swims. Pretty difficult to correct this with a check cord or an earpinch dont you think? You can tell him hold and if he refuses to hold you can correct him with a "hold/nick".

In all the cases above a well conditioned dog will NOT blame the bird. He will clearly understand that the correction was for violating a known command. If the dog thought it was the bird or bumper you wouldnt be able to train them at all with the collar.

We work on all these issues during training (or should! me included). But dogs are dogs. They arent perfect, they will make mistakes no matter what youve done with a check cord. Thorough conditioning with the collar gives you the tools to use to correct the vast majority of problems that will arise in the field.

Lots of myths out there like you cant correct a dog with a bird in its mouth or retrievers cant hunt upland or pointers cant retrieve.

So again. Rimrock and you are correct if the dog has not been properly collar conditioned. You are wrong if it has been properly collar conditioned.
The dog will know exactly where the correction came from,YOU.

Benny,
James in Idahoo sounds like someone that has seen a dog get into a porky. Its a horrible sight. This is where you want to really make a point to convince the dog that the porky is bad berries!

Now back to collar recommendation.

I prefer tri tronics and specifically the pro 100.

It has 6 levels and more importantly within each of those 6 levels there are 3 levels. Its important to be able to instantly up the level of correction as timing is important. With the pro 100 you dont have to turn a dial or look at the transmitter. You just push a different combination of two buttons to isntantly up the level.

I also like its size. A smaller one would get stuffed in a pocket and not there when you need it. For training and most of my hunting I keep it on a sling and it hangs at my right side. Its alway right where I left it and in the natural position to grab .It doesnt matter if I change coats or whatever. I just slip the sling over my head. Also dont have to worry about dropping it.

As for tones they can be effective. My first collar had them. I personnaly dont see a need for them though. The dogs "tone" is the command itself. If he can hear my voice or whistle he knows I can reach him with the collar! Its all the warning they should need. If they dont comply they should know whats coming next. If they get the command and refuse they get corrected. I dont namby pamby them with the tone.
Its like telling the dog to sit 10 times before you make him do it.

Since youve asked this question because you are doing research. I would recommend you find a local club or pro to help you with learning to use the collar.

Good books are the Tri Tronics Book (and tapes) "The Trained Retrieve".

Smartworks and Smartfetch by Evan Graham. Hes a retriever guy but if youre looking at a pointer but still want a well conditioned to collar and a good retrieveing dog, Stay with the retriever guys. Evans stuff is pretty good. He even has some DVDS I believe.

[Don Fischer]

Originally Posted by James in Idaho

I'll be in the market soon, so the only two I'll look at will be Tri Tronics and the upper end Dogtra's. I train retrievers so I won't try to understand you pointer guys. Had one of those as a kid, he was the grandson of Riggins White Knight, and wow, that dog could RUN!!!!!! Retrievers are much easier. But you can't just go "correct" a dog without conditioning, except for snake breaking or porky breaking. You want those two things to be considered really, really bad deals.

Intresting note about Riggins White Knight. I don't know how to spell their name, the family that makes tabasco sauce. Well back when the dog was ten yrs old, the head of the family decided he wanted to own the best bird dog in the world, then that was Riggins White Knight. He found the dog wasn't for sale but that didn't stop him. He finally bought the dog, $90k! That's a bunch of money for a ten year old dog!

[Don Fischer]

Originally Posted by llama77

Benny,As for tones they can be effective. My first collar had them. I personnaly dont see a need for them though. The dogs "tone" is the command itself. If he can hear my voice or whistle he knows I can reach him with the collar! Its all the warning they should need. If they dont comply they should know whats coming next. If they get the command and refuse they get corrected. I dont namby pamby them with the tone.
Its like telling the dog to sit 10 times before you make him do it.

Since youve asked this question because you are doing research. I would recommend you find a local club or pro to help you with learning to use the collar.

Good books are the Tri Tronics Book (and tapes) "The Trained Retrieve".

Smartworks and Smartfetch by Evan Graham. Hes a retriever guy but if youre looking at a pointer but still want a well conditioned to collar and a good retrieveing dog, Stay with the retriever guys. Evans stuff is pretty good. He even has some DVDS I believe.

Your right, I am a pointer guy. Not much I'd disagree with in this post. I especially like your thoughts on the tones, have always hated them, the only warning is the command or the whistle giving the command.

I don't know if you know Ken McDonald or not, retired lab trainer that now lives in Wisc. He made a statement a while back that us pointer guys are behind the retriever guys in training. Not sure thats right though because each dog preforms a different task. But he does have some intresting ideas, the vast majority I agree with.

[llama77]

Don,
I think what he meant about the pointer guys being behind is when it comes to Retrieving and especially advanced retrieving and the benefits of FF.

The pointer guys gave us the forced retrieve, the retriever guys took it to a much higher level. Much of the difference is what ones definition of a proper retrieve is. Mine may be quite different from yours.

They are in "general" wary about doing too much too soon. All the pointing type dogs I have seen could have benefitted and have benefitted from a good Collar conditioning/FF progarm early on.