Desolation Elk...'09

[Larry G]

I just checked out the 09 regs and found to my surprise that ODFW has eliminated the first cow elk hunt in the Desolation unit and seems to have reduced the second season hunt down to 165 tags. All I can say if FINALLY!!
Three years after ODFW opened up the first cow hunt I sent letters and e-mails to officials at ODFW to try and get them to stop that hunt with obvious results...they kept the hunt to keep the revenue coming in. I have been hunting that unit for nearly 20 years now and the numbers of elk dropped dramatically after this hunt started. We generally spend 1-2 weeks in that unit a year between hunting, scouting and fishing. I don’t know what ODFW says the "official" number of elk are in that unit but they are no where close to where they were nearly 10 years ago.
I do not have anything against cow hunts as I participate in them myself but I could see serious mismanagement of that unit and because of that there are fewer tags available. ODFW just shot themselves in the foot in terms of the revenue they are going to generate from that unit. They saw an opportunity to make money in the short term but overlooked the long term. For the most part ODFW does a good job of management but in this case they messed up and need to admit it. The public came to them and said WAIT and they did not listen until it was too late.
With the increase of predators in the unit will desolation ever be what it was even 10 years ago???

[huntingfever]

I heard that they're not having cow tags there. Is that going to be for bowhunting also?

Is there other units with no more cow hunts?

[MountainLion84]

Thanks for thje good news Larry. I just returned from Spike hunting there, and was going to try and figure out why the heck there was 2 cow seasons there.

[ehunter]

I think that is good news as well even though I have never hunted there maybe they are listening to some hunters input. I am going to have to look to see if they reduced the doe hunts in NW Oregon I too have no problem when the numbers are up.

[King Kong]

Originally Posted by Larry G

I just checked out the 09 regs and found to my surprise that ODFW has eliminated the first cow elk hunt in the Desolation unit and seems to have reduced the second season hunt down to 165 tags. All I can say if FINALLY!!
Three years after ODFW opened up the first cow hunt I sent letters and e-mails to officials at ODFW to try and get them to stop that hunt with obvious results...they kept the hunt to keep the revenue coming in. I have been hunting that unit for nearly 20 years now and the numbers of elk dropped dramatically after this hunt started. We generally spend 1-2 weeks in that unit a year between hunting, scouting and fishing. I don’t know what ODFW says the "official" number of elk are in that unit but they are no where close to where they were nearly 10 years ago.
I do not have anything against cow hunts as I participate in them myself but I could see serious mismanagement of that unit and because of that there are fewer tags available. ODFW just shot themselves in the foot in terms of the revenue they are going to generate from that unit. They saw an opportunity to make money in the short term but overlooked the long term. For the most part ODFW does a good job of management but in this case they messed up and need to admit it. The public came to them and said WAIT and they did not listen until it was too late.
With the increase of predators in the unit will desolation ever be what it was even 10 years ago???

This is great news!!!!!!!!!!

[mstarck]

They did the same thing in the Starkey Unit.result was not many cows or elk for that matter.been hunting there since 1972 and it is my believe that ODFW and USFS are not doing a very good job there .It is like night and day when compared to say Murderers Creek.just my opinion and i might be totaly wrong on this ,but it seems like things have changed.

mike s.

[Scrillznac]

I agree......They should stop the spike hunts on several units as well. I agree with the idea of cow and spike hunts but only if they need to control the population of a certain area. Some area's herds are really suffering. It's good to hear they're making some positive changes.

[ORsouthpaw]

Well I guess it's a good thing if it means that next year's archery hunting will be better in there. We used to hunt Ukiah and they eliminated the cow hunt there 3-4 years ago. Does anyone know why the elk population hasn't exploded there?

I agree that cow hunt's need to be limited but given the average success rate and the fact that your only talking about 330 tags being eliminated your really only talking about saving maybe 45-50 cow elk from hunter harvest. Throw a couple of new cougars in the mix and your still losing ground in regards to overall elk numbers. I really don't mind the reduction of tags but I think they should expand the Heppner predation project to be able to see some real improvments in Desolation. Well, actually in every unit for that matter

All that said, our group will be in Desolation next week... Hunting cows!

[Rank Amateur]

Originally Posted by ehunter

I think that is good news as well even though I have never hunted there maybe they are listening to some hunters input. I am going to have to look to see if they reduced the doe hunts in NW Oregon I too have no problem when the numbers are up.

Dreamer! Hey, I saw a Doe on one of my three days elk scouting this week. Must be one too many.

[Larry G]

I remember when they first started the two cow hunts in desolation and the first hunt had at least 700 tags and the second had 500. They kept it that way for nearly 10 years....this played a part in the decline of elk for sure!

Good luck Orsouthpaw!

[ehunter]

Guys I want every one to say this with me cougars ok very slow C O U G A R S. That has a lot to do with the numbers

Rank your on a role better get picture or Limbhanger and I won't beleive you

[goodie]

If they keep stopping all the hunts to please a few individuals. There wont be any more hunts, be careful what you wish for.

[ORsouthpaw]

Originally Posted by ehunter

Guys I want every one to say this with me cougars ok very slow C O U G A R S. That has a lot to do with the numbers

C O U G A R S

As most of know this is an issue that can no longer be ignored. Calf predation on elk has sky rocketed. Like I said before I'm OK with reducing the cow tags but if predators aren't better controlled then you can expect the elk numbers to continue to decline. Pretty soon they will eliminate the other cow hunt, then the spike only hunt and finally reduce the number of bull tags and make Desolation archery hunts a draw only. Eventually all Desolation elk hunting will be eliminated. Ok maybe that's the extreme scenario but look ahead 20 years from now and imagine you kids or grandkids having to wait 15 years to draw a Desolation tag. If we as hunters and the people that manage our game herds don't change the current path this is a very real possibility.

[Hookset]

Originally Posted by Larry G

I do not have anything against cow hunts as I participate in them myself but I could see serious mismanagement of that unit and because of that there are fewer tags available. ODFW just shot themselves in the foot in terms of the revenue they are going to generate from that unit. For the most part ODFW does a good job of management but in this case they messed up and need to admit it.

I don't believe ODFW looks at cow hunts as mis-management. When the elk management plan was adopted several years ago creating specific management objectives for bull/cow ratios , increasing cow tags was the simplest method to quickly align elk populations to their new management goals.

To understand how the elk populations are what they are today, consider where we were before the long term elk management plan was adopted in the 90's. Do you remember when ODFW largely managed elk for maximum numbers? Units like Ukiah and Snake River had some of the largest numbers of elk per square mile in the state; populations of 50 elk per square mile were typical. Except the bull to cow ratio was like 3 bulls per 100 cows in Ukiah as well as many other units on the east side. ODFW finally recognized the importance of having more bulls to breed cows early during the rut to reduce stress and increase calve survival. So the ODFW adopted new MO's for elk that biologist were instructed to implement asap; I believe the goal was within 3 years.

So the question was; how do you maintain current income and at the same time change bull/cow ratios from 3/100 to the new MO's for elk @ 10-15 bulls to 100 cows within 3 years? The answer was really simple; increase cow hunts. So the ODFW was very generous for several years and increased cow hunts to reach the new objectives. And the plan was very successful with almost all units at the new MO's within 3 years.

So what do these new numbers mean to you?? Simple........fewer elk. To increase bull/cow ratios from 3/100 to 10/100, means 70 cows out of 100 were expendable. After several years of increased cow hunts I certainly noticed the difference with fewer and fewer elk spotted each year after the new MO's were reached. And when you consider the timing of such a move coincided with the ban on hound hunting for bear and cougar, this equaled double disaster for elk and elk hunters.

Instead of increasing cow hunts, I wished ODFW would have created limited bull hunts to increase bull escapement or start more antler restrictions. But instead they took the easiest and simplest approach that the elk and Oregon hunters may never recover from. If I had to guess, they probably thought having more bulls would actually increase the number of calves born at once to help survival. Well that has happened.....with some units at only 15 calves per 100 cows, the plan has backfired.

Ok, think I said enough.....

Gregg

[Gun Rod Bow]

Originally Posted by ehunter

Guys I want every one to say this with me cougars ok very slow C O U G A R S. That has a lot to do with the numbers

Rank your on a role better get picture or Limbhanger and I won't beleive you

So how does shooting cows help with a herd getting too much predation?

[uhmw]

The ODFW made the desolation unit one of the only east side units that an archer has oppertunity for cow. The old regs allowed cows in most east side units spreading out the bow hunters more evenly. Ever since ODFW changed the regs to allow archery cow hunting(hair tag) in desolation and closed it in most other east side units, elk archery hunters have been flocking to the desolation unit- IMO way way too much. It has been rediculously crowed during bow season with both residents and non resident hunter camps developing like I have never seen in that area. I have bow hunted on and off in that unit for 15 years and belive archery regulation changes have messed it up for both rifle and archery hunters..

[Northwest Pest]

I am also very happy about this change.

[ehunter]

My point was that the more predation we have the less oppertunities hunting we get. I think Gregg made some good points as well. If we lower the MO and still have predation it gets reduced to less than MO pretty quick and with that tags.

Originally Posted by Gun Rod Bow

So how does shooting cows help with a herd getting too much predation?

[Mossyhorn]

Originally Posted by uhmw

The ODFW made the desolation unit one of the only east side units that an archer has oppertunity for cow. The old regs allowed cows in most east side units spreading out the bow hunters more evenly. Ever since ODFW changed the regs to allow archery cow hunting(hair tag) in desolation and closed it in most other east side units, elk archery hunters have been flocking to the desolation unit- IMO way way too much. It has been rediculously crowed during bow season with both residents and non resident hunter camps developing like I have never seen in that area. I have bow hunted on and off in that unit for 15 years and belive archery regulation changes have messed it up for both rifle and archery hunters..

Are you serious? Check the regs, there are a lot of eastern units that allow cows to be taken by archers. I've been hunting the desolation for the last 9 years straight, this season was the first season where I actually think I saw fewer people. There has always been a crap ton of people there.

[Old Guys Rule]

YES!!!!

For the past 10 years there have been almost as many rifle cow tags as bull tags. The success on cow hunts is 4 times the bull hunt success so do the math and you will understand why ODFW has DECREASED the MO for the unit twice in the past ten years and they still cannot maintain the MO numbers. I talked at length to some of the bios there and they claim the pressure from lbig andowners to control property damage is the reason for the cow tags. I countered that an early hunt in the wilderness areas does not stop winter range property damage but my argument fell on deaf ears.

Predator control is next on the list if you want to increase herd numbers as from my experiences there the cats are getting a lot.

[Hookset]

Originally Posted by uhmw

The ODFW made the desolation unit one of the only east side units that an archer has opportunity for cow. The old regs allowed cows in most east side units spreading out the bow hunters more evenly. Ever since ODFW changed the regs to allow archery cow hunting(hair tag) in desolation and closed it in most other east side units, elk archery hunters have been flocking to the desolation unit- IMO way way too much. It has been ridiculously crowded during bow season with both residents and non resident hunter camps developing like I have never seen in that area. I have bow hunted on and off in that unit for 15 years and believe archery regulation changes have messed it up for both rifle and archery hunters..

Archery cows hunt are aligned with rifle cow hunts, so if rifle cow hunts are eliminated, so are archery cow hunts. The ODFW has stopped using or considering archery seasons as a management tool, since bow success rates are low and unreliable for computer modeling. Instead rifle seasons and tag numbers are used to control game numbers and archery bag limits are adjusted accordingly.

When most units were open to cow hunts, that means for both rifle and bow. Now that overall elk numbers are down, the ODFW has no choice but to eliminate cow hunts for both weapons. So ODFW isn't intentionally grouping more archery hunters together in one unit, instead thats the direct result of having fewer elk available to hunters and the Desolation unit unfortunately is now reflecting this downward trend.

Elk herds in eastern Oregon are in serious decline and the seasons and reduced bag limits reflect this where everyone is affected. Unfortunately, the prognosis for elk and deer doesn't look good unless something drastically changes.

[Eagleclaw]

Originally Posted by Mossyhorn

Are you serious? Check the regs, there are a lot of eastern units that allow cows to be taken by archers. I've been hunting the desolation for the last 9 years straight, this season was the first season where I actually think I saw fewer people. There has always been a crap ton of people there.

Beatys Butte, Beulah, Biggs, Columbia Basin, Desolation, Fort Rock,
Fossil, Grizzly, Hood, Imnaha, Juniper, Lookout Mtn, Malheur River, Maupin, Murderers Cr, Northside, Ochoco, Owhyee, Paulina, Pine cr, Silvies, Steens Mtn, Sumpter, Wagontire, White River, and Whitehorse all allow any elk to be harvested during archery season.

[Hookset]

Originally Posted by Old Guys Rule

I talked at length to some of the bios there and they claim the pressure from big landowners to control property damage is the reason for the cow tags. Predator control is next on the list if you want to increase herd numbers as from my experiences there the cats are getting a lot.

For years ODFW spent a lot of money litigating elk damaged complaints by private land owners. I don't know this for sure, but I suspect that when MO's were adopted to reduce elk numbers in the 90's, one of the biggest justifications was to reduce land owner complaints. I believe this goal was reached, so the plan was successful.

[Rank Amateur]

As long as we keep buying the tags, they will continue doing what they are doing. It's all about money, we need to understand that!

[49erjimmy]

Originally Posted by Hookset

For years ODFW spent a lot of money litigating elk damaged complaints by private land owners. I don't know this for sure, but I suspect that when MO's were adopted to reduce elk numbers in the 90's, one of the biggest justifications was to reduce land owner complaints. I believe this goal was reached, so the plan was successful.

Since when should ODFW be making regulations affecting thousands of Oregon hunters to appease a few complaining landowners. The animals have always been there in their natural habitat I have to replace landscape material around my house on 20 acres every year do to blacktail damage. They shouldn't be passing regulations based on their need for income either. I suggest that ODFW could cut their own numbers so they don't need so much income from tag sales, controlled hunt applications, auctioning off premuim tags and raffles. There are currently 63 biologists working for ODFW alone. They all have to justify a job and looking at the size of the synopsis every year they must all have to be published.

I have been hunting the Desolation unit with a bow for over 40 years and it has definitely gone down hill seriously in the last 10 years. I do see more bulls than cows now but that is because I don't see very many cows anymore.

[bigjake_888]

There were four cow seasons in the delolation unit this year.