end of the saga - problem SOLVED!

[Sea Jypzee]

Ok, I'm starting to get a bit frustrated here.

I just took Sea Jypzee out offshore for some sea trial after the tune up Woody did last week. Seas were crappy, but manageable.

I went about 14 miles offshore, both engines ran perfectly without a single hitch. Puttered around offshore for a few minutes then turned around and made the run in. Kicked it up to about 3000 rpm's on the ride in, and all seemed to go very well.

Then, just outside of the bouy line, the port engine began trying to cut out...cutting out.

Last week, I replaced the coil, and Woody replaced the plugs, wires, distributer cap, and rotor. Also timed it.

Week before I replaced the fuel/water filter before the fuel pump, and the small filter inside of the carborator.

Both engines come off the same gas tank, and the starboard engine runs like a top. Has never missed a beat. The port engine runs usually several hours, then starts cutting out usually on the run back in while at about 3000 rpm.

Carborator rebuild time? Fuel Pump? Not much left that I can think of...

[ 07-31-2003, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Sea Jypzee ]

[kenai]

Have a look at a possible ball check valve between the fuel tank and motor. I went through exactly the same thing you are with my 350 GM marine motor. Rebuilt carb, tuneups adnauseaum. and found this valve to stick intermittently. I kept looking for a heat related problem and it threw me off course on the troubleshooting.

[MasterCaster]

Its just a thought but you might replace the fuel line that goes to your port engine. The line may have problems itself like a separation of the lining inside that causes it to calapse or pieces of it coming off and contaminating the fuel system. :whazzup:

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[Mr. Fisherman]

Sorry to hear your troubles.
Have you checked the oil lately?
Is there any water in it?
You might want to check the head gasket :whazzup:
I hope it turns out to be something simple and easy but it pays to check everything....

[deepsix]

Another possibility is the carb float. I fought with a intermittent problem on my 302 that ended up being a sticky carb float. Bouncing around on the waves can enhance the problem. My engine always ran fine in the driveway but would randomly cause problems while on the water. A carb rebuild is not a big deal. It may be time depending on the age and hours on your boat.

[Sea Jypzee]

Spoke with Ken Serven in South Beach via phone.
I pulled the fuel updake hose coming out of the tank, no leaks, and no corrosion. There is no ball check valve there either.

Finclipped - Woody is on the way down now to help take the fuel pump out and we'll get it into Newport and either check or replace it today hopefully. I don't think it's anything IN the tank causing this, as both engines should be acting up if that were the case. The pick up tubes are the same and next to each other by about 3" apart.

Snapshot - Awww, sorry you can't make it. Ok, will take the next person in line for the seat. Maybe next time. At this point, unless this problem is solved, the trips fri/sat/sun will all end up scrubbed. I'm not going out on a 35 mile each way trip without having this problem resolved. It's a safety issue, and I want both engines working consistantly and perfect.

The Electrical connections have been gone over multiple times. They're all good...

I suppose we could go through and replace ALL of the fuel line on that engine. That is about what it would take to track the problem down if that were the problem.

DB_C - EGR Valve? What is it, where is it, and what's it do?

I'm trying to avoid replacing the entire ignition and fuel system just cause they COULD each be the problem. I don't have the money to be doing that. I need to find some way to actually diagnose the problem without just randomly replacing parts. :shocked:

[Pilar]

Nancy, what a chewy problem you have. I had a real doozer on my boat here recently.

I connected the coil directly to the battery as I had begun to suspect the wiring harness. Sure enough it ran fine on the new wire but not on the existing wire.

Then I noticed that the starter was drawing current from the 'R' terminal when the engine was running and not starting. On most GM engines, 'R' on the starter is connected to coil hot. It is supposed to boost the coil voltage on coils with external resistors to make a hot engine easy to start. While you crank it the 'R' terminal on the starter solenoid puts +12 right to the coil + terminal.

On my boat this connection was drawing juice while the engine was running and starving the coil for power. I unhooked the wire from the 'R' terminal on the starter solenoid and the problem has stopped for good.

The problem was an intermittent miss after a long boat ride.

Just like your problem.

[Sea Jypzee]

Pilar - hmmm. This isn't a 'miss' really. This is a total cut out of the engine briefly. Almost seems as if it's 'running out of gas'. Is yours an electronic ignition? This is, not sure if it makes a difference or not there. I would think that both engines are wired up the same...don't know this for fact though, as have not done a side by side comparison.

[Deepslayer]

I had a similar problem on my I.O. many years ago. It turned out to be the kill switch, that kills the engine for a second whenever you shift from forward to reverse. It was heating up and opening up when hot. I bypassed the switch and didn't have the problem anymore. I then replaced the switch and the problem was cured.
,Ed

[Pilar]

Jypzee, the miss would worsen as the boat ran. On 7/2/03 the problem got bad enough to shut down the engine. We replaced the starter and then still had the problem.

The extra juice shorting through the 'R' terminal was heating up the wiring and eventually the engine would miss worse and worse and then cut off altogether. Check for signs of heat damage in the wire that is connected to your starter solenoid 'R' terminal.

The 'Pilar' is using points and condensor in an aftermarket Mallory distributor. I just don't trust the electronic ignition systems. No way to regap and/or file those back into shape.

Maybe you start by powering the coil directly as I did when the problem occurs. If the problem goes away then you know something in your wiring has gone south.

It took us awhile to find it as we disconnected everything powered by the Ignition circuit on the boat. Including all of your dash board instruments, water temp, oil pressure, trim indicator, Tachometer and on and on.

[ 07-28-2003, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Pilar ]

[kenai]

Do you have the emergency cutoff switch on your controls( the one with the lanyard you are supposed to use)? It is supposed to kill ignition and the rubber fastener that holds the button down decayed over time on mine and would intermittently lock out the ignition. Just a thought. Now that I think about it you have 2 motors so that's probably not it.

[ 07-28-2003, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: kenai ]

[boater]

have you ever had it start to miss and then you idle it down and shut it off and restart it and it runs fine ?

[gotfish76]

Is there a possibility of a damaged water pump causing lack of cooling on the one motor and temparary loss of power? I would also "read" the plugs on the motor, possibly spark plugs overheating, and fouling. Good luck Nancy, if you need help let me know. Brian(aka gotfish76)

[fish_on]

I think in one of your previous posts you said this was HEI (no points) ignition. If so you want to check the ignition module that is attached to the distributor. Common symptoms are it will run fine cold but as it warms up it will start to cut out, as the problem gets worse it will just die and then restart when it cools down. You can replace it or switch it from one motor to the other and see if the problem follows the module. You should not have to pull the distributor to replace.

[Sea Jypzee]

Boater - nope, never has done that. When it dies out, it will restart, but doesn't resume normal operation till it's sat for an extended period of time.

Gotfish - No, the engine temp never changes before during or after the problem starts up. I just replaced the spark plugs last week with the tune up, new plugs, wires, distributer cap and rotor.

FishOn - hmm haven't tried swapping ignition modules...yes, it is electronic ignition.

As a bit of an update, we (Woody his son and I) just got back in from running it offshore to 'make' it fail again. Since he's never seen exactly what it was doing, we decided to go for a cruise. We went out about 10 miles, the ocean was crap the first 4-5 miles, then we came out of the fog, the ocean laid down and it was beautiful and sunny with hardly any wind. Was unbelievable if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. We even got into a few Dahls Porposes, and even tossed out the tuna gear just in case. :grin: No bites, but was worth a shot.

Anyway, on with the problem....we trolled around a while, it did fine. Finally pulled the gear and kicked it up on plane, and as I expected, it started back into cutting out again. While we were running like this, they pulled the engine cover off, and the flame arrestor to watch the fuel flow, and when it cuts out, the fuel flow also is being cut out. Sooooo, it appears that it IS a fuel related problem.

I had them go ahead and pull the Carb, and they're going to put a rebuild kit on it figuring that there's probably some crap inside that's blocking the jets or something. Will probably also go ahead and replace the fuel line while the carb is out, but it doesn't LOOK like that is the problem.

So, hopefully in next day or so, will know more once Woody gets the carb torn apart.

Stand by for more updates once we know more.

BTW: The fuel pump was $179 :shocked: for a new one from NAPA. I can't see replacing something THAT expensive without good reason to suspect that's the problem. If taking care of the carb and line doesn't do the job, then maybe the pump next as that's the most expensive part left.

[ 07-28-2003, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Sea Jypzee ]

[Fishplay]

I think fish_on is on the right track.

Here's my shopping list of possibles.

Your vacume advance may not be functioning properly. The vacume advance module senses changes in engine load and advances timing in response to increased engine vacume.

The module (which is basicly the electronic brain) could be bad. This module reads the pickup signal from the stator. You should use a stock GM module. There is no need for the expensive MSD modules but you should steer away from parts house modules. The GM module has a variable dwell circuit that some cheapos don't have.

Last, the stator itself could be bad. It could be providing bad (foriegn) signal to the module.

[FishBowl]

Nancy
I hope that this problem get's solved at minimal expense. It does sound fuel related but you can't ignore the wiring issue. I had a old GMC truck that would do the same thing and replaced the cap, rotor, plugs plug wires, rebuilt the carb you name it. Turned out to be a freyed wire coming off the coil was grounding out against the fire wall . It ran real nice after I replace that 3 feet of wire.
Hope you get it figured out by friday, boy am I selfish or what I want to go fishing
Good luck

[Gregotis98]

I know you've had alot of help on this but I thought I'd throw in what my problem was when I was a youngster with my old 76 Chevy truck. I had a weak fuel pump and the good old truck would cough and shut down until it cooled down and then fire back up after that. Instead of fixing it, for about six months I ran around like this and just let her cool down, if I was lucky and happened to be going camping I usually would have a cooler with ice in it and throw some cubes on it and watch em melt away very quickly to help speed up the process and just keep on truck'n. Hope you can weed out the problem.

[skein]

Hmmmmm Interesting thought, Greg. Since you have two fuel pumps, Nancy, what about switching them and seeing if the starboard engine starts acting up. Of course that's easy for me to say, since I don't have to bolt and unbolt 'em.

Woody, my hat is off to you and your son for stepping up to the plate on this problem. You guys have earned our admiration. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Skein

[Fishplay]

Try here if you end up needing a fuel pump. Napa will rob you.
URL=http://www.amarket.com/fuepchev.htm]web page[/URL]

Here is an ebay auction for one. This guy has an ebay store and has multiple fuel pump auctions. Great buy it now price too.
web page

[TWB]

Wow, Nancy, you have taxed some brilliant mechanical minds here! However with this kind of help, you are surely going to get it solved.

But, I think that I now no the real problem with that boat. [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] You say that it only quits running when you pull in the fishing gear and start for home? My opinion is, that, that boat just doesn't want to quit fishing and it's mad that it has to go home!!!

Jerry

[Sea Jypzee]

Kenai - Not sure it has those ball check valves on there. Will see if I can find anything like that.

MC - The fuel line is (visibly) in good shape. Will check it in more detail though to be sure.

Mr. Fisherman - Actually I changed the oil and filters in both engines this past friday night. There was no water in it.

[DB_Cooper]

A friend of mine had to replace his EGR valve to fix a similar problem.

[Woody]

I just walked in the door from Depoe and I'm tired. But here's the deal in a nutshell. After pushing the engine to recreate the fault, we eventually got the engine to cut out and die like Nancy described. We immediatly pulled the doghouse off and removed the spark arrestor off he carb. I looked down into the primarys and observed the jets as she throttled up and tried to get it to fail again. At the point the problems began, the jets began spurting fuel (Instead of a smooth even flow) and the engine starved out. We observed this several times. It is most definitly fuel related. If the problem was electrical, the fuel flow through the jets would remain smooth and slowly diminish as the engine revved down. Andy and I yanked the carb(Rochester Quadrajet} and are going to rebuild it tommorrow.

[MasterCaster]

Just a note the type of internal damage I have seen there is no obvious signs of from the outside. What happens it the iner lining separates from the outer and when there is enough pressure/suction is calapses either partially or eventially all the way. Its just a thought but thats one that came to mind. I have seen brand new hoses do this in the past.

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

[finclipped]

My guess would be a fuel pump if its only acting up on one motor. I could give a hand replacing or whatever Friday morning? I have also seen where a lot of condensation will occur in a fuel tank that sat idle a long time and it required 3 filter changes to get it cleaned out. But it seems as though both motors would act up if this was the case.

The other suggestions would be the coil, which you have already replaced.

[Snapshot]

Nancy, I have had problems with condensation from one weekend to the next. You can check a fuel filter to see if there is any water in it or not. Also as noted the fuel line can collapse from the inside without exterior signs of a problem. Fuel lines are less expensive than a carp or overhaul. Also if you replace the carb and it is a fuel pump, line or condensation, you will still have a problem once you start running again.

One last thought, check your hot wire and ground to make sure you are not experincing an electrical short after they get hot. A short in any of your hot leads from the engine might causer it to cut out,

NOW, for more serious news, I cannot get Friday off to go out looking for those Barn Door shaped fish. Thank you so much for opening up a seat and perhaps I can make it another time.

Ray

*Fish only bite wet hooks*

[Longhunter]

A buddy and I are headed down to coast for a couple days to get out of the heat, will stop off at D.P with my Fuel Pump Pressure Gauge if no one is around your boat will leave it on your boat.

If it electric full pumps just take fuel line off going to Carb. and see what the pressure is then check the other engine, if not electric fuel pump same deal the engine will run long enough on the fuel in the carb to get reading on your pumps.

If you are around when I am will be happy to check it out for you!
Chev. should be between 9-13 psi.

Paul

[Sea Jypzee]

Long - Thanks. I won't be there till later this afternoon, as I need to head into work this morning. The carborator is off the boat at this time, so checking the fuel pump could be a bit of a problem for right now. It's a non-electric fuel pump btw.

The guage would be nice to use once we get the carb back in place though.

Thank you for the offer!!

[Fish-n-Fever]

My old 65 mustang had this exact same thing happen to it. I'm not sure if boat tanks have a "sock" type screen on the bottom of the drop line inside the fuel tank as that mustang did but that was my trouble maker. It would collapse and shut my fuel flow off untill the engine was shut down then run fine for a while. After taking that off and putting on an inline filter I had no more problems.
good luck
Ron

[Norm]

I think fish_on is on the right track. If it's a plugged up carb problem, It would not just show up when it's hot. I've had a couple of ignition modules die that only worked for a while cold, then would die as they got hot. If thats not the problem, you should have a spare module on the boat anyway .

[Marty]

Nancy........this is very similar to a situation that drove me crazy for months. To make a long story shorter, the problem was the air vents that flow fresh air to the engine compartments. In my old trophy one was turned forward and one was turned backward. When sloppy seas hit that air vent that was open to the front (side slap, choppy sloppy conditions usually with wind) it would funnel a hose of salt water into the engine compartment and hit the distributor and would short out. Could never find the problem until I stuck my head back there as we were running and it looked like a million little lightening bolts in and around the wires when the water shot thru the vent. Wouldn't work right again until the water evaportated. I would bet your port engine has vents that are vulnerable to salt water spray intrusion, especially since almost all of the 'weather' would be on your port side coming back in. I temporarily fixed it by hanging a cloth behind the vent to catch the salt water before it shot onto the engine. Then I realized that the vents were interchangeable (front to back), so I just rotated mine (vent chimes changed to face rear of boat)and never had a problem again. At least you had two engines when this happens.......I just had one and my problems usually were always associated with crossing bars or escaping worsening weather.

Good fishin to ya

Marty

[The Chub]

I would have to say that it is either your pump, or your floats getting stuck.

[Woody]

I think this might be the problem :grin:



Look at all that gunk in there!!
I'm going to pick up the rebuild kit right now.

[ 07-29-2003, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Woody ]

[Miss B Haven]

Hey- looks like Tuna guts in there! :shocked: :grin:

[Pilar]

Time to get some Stabil and start using it with every fillup. It minimizes varnish problems.

The good news is that almost all of the other common wear parts have been replaced. Once the fix is in it should run like new.

[FishBowl]

Way to go Woody you da man, nice to have friends that can get into tight places huh Nancy

[Myles]

Good job finding the problem, but don't forget both engines run off the same tank. The other is probably as bad.

myles

[Sea Jypzee]

Marty - I'm sure it's not the vents. The vent goes to a hose that runs clear down below the engine itself into the bilge area below it. Should be getting no water up there, and there's no salt spray anywhere around the engines, so I know that's not it.

FnF - Nothing on the end of the pick up tube in the fuel tank. I pulled that out to check for a possible hole in it.

Longhunter - I got the book and fuel pressure gauge. THANK you!! I have them safely locked up onboard for now. Will get them back to you asap. Hopefully this carb rebuild will take care of the problem once and for all.

Woody - Well after seeing that picture, I'd have to say that either that's the problem, or at the very least, it needed doing anyway!! What was the float like? Did it have any holes in it that it may have been sinking, or sticking?

Pilar - Ya, if I'm going to let it sit for more than a couple of weeks at a time, I will start using a fuel stabilizer. The previous owner did minimal to no maintenance on the boat overall, so this really isn't overly surprising to find it in this condition. I of course had a complete survey done prior to purchase, so I knew of the 'major' issues that I'll have to deal with down the line. I got it for a very good price, and expected to find at least a few issues related to previous lack of maintenance. If this is the worst of them, I'll be very happy. Before I bought the boat, I asked him how often and when the last time he'd changed the oil was. His response was, "Oh, I did that one time". [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img]

So finding things like this isn't a big surprise. Thankfully the boat itself and the engines are strong enough that I don't believe they suffered too much for his lack of care.

Crambone - Yes, I am very thankful for all the help Woody and his son have been through this. They're both very knowledgable and I would highly recommend them.

Myles - Actually the other carb is much cleaner on the outside, and that engine had been replaced 2 years ago, not sure if the carb was then or not. It also has run perfectly through this, so I really don't think it's AS bad. It probably could use a rebuild, and I may have it done this winter for good measure anyway.

[ 07-29-2003, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Sea Jypzee ]

[fish_on]

I hope a carb rebuild fixes your problem looks like it was nasty. It still seems strange that it only showed when it got warm. Check the fuel line routing for that engine and make sure that the line doesn't get too close to an exhaust manafold, it is starting to sound like a vapor lock combined with the carb gunk.

[Woody]

Crambone, thanks. But if you think I can get into tight places, it's obvious you've never met me. That's why I bring my partner Andy. He's still young and skinny. :grin:

I really think this is going to fix the problem. I don't think it is heat related as much as it is time related. In other words, the longer the engine is run, the more the gunk in the bowl gets stirred up and gets sucked up into the passages and jets. The mystery is; why doesn't stay clogged.

I need to give a big thanks to Fishin Fun. He owns C & M boat repair in Marquam, right down the road from me. Mel is a great guy and has been a big help in troubleshooting this problem. I spent several hours down there today using his tools and carb cleaner. He also ordered the parts on his account, so we could save Nancy a few bucks. If you live in South Clackamas county and need your boat worked on, Mel's your man.

[ 07-29-2003, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: Woody ]

[Miss B Haven]

Originally posted by Woody:
. Mel is a great guy and has been a big help in troubleshooting this problem. If you live in South Clackamas county and need your boat worked on, Mel's your man.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Hey- thanks Woody! :grin: [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] Just remember though- I may be easy but I ain't cheap!

[DipSeaDiver]

Sea Jypzee,
Looking forward to reading that your boat is "healed". Sounds like you've got some great help!! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

It's been great to watch this "saga" and see so many sincere and helpful responses.

I look forward to meeting you. You, obviously, have lots of respect and admiration from this group.

Good Luck!!

DipSeaDiver

[Sea Jypzee]

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Woody came out early this morning and put the rebuilt carb on, engine started up, set the idle, all looked perfect...out the hole we went (once it settled down a bit), and things almost immediately started back with the same problem. ACK!! :shocked:

We decided to go through the entire fuel system from start to finish. Swapped fuel lines coming off the gas tank. This would effectively narrow it down to either the tank itself, or the pick-up tube. Ran out and wham the problem had switched to the other engine.

Soooo, we pulled the pick up tube, compaired the two, they LOOKED the same, no visible holes, no corrosion, etc. (I had visually inspected it days ago as well). Blow through it with no leak detected..etc.

So we decided to swap tubes, and put the fuel lines back their original positions...this would differentiate between fuel tank and pick-up tube. Sure enough, the problem remained with the other engine...(problem followed the pick-up tube) to different position in the gas tank.

Ran into Newport for a visit to Englands, and sure enough they happen to have exactly what I needed, with plastic? instead of the aluminum that the old tube was. Install new tube, and problem is GONE!!!

When we got back to dock this evening, we found that the 'hole' was a crack in the upper threads of the tube, essentially invisible to the nekked eye.

Sooooo, Sea Jypzee is gassed up, gear is ready and will be leaving Dock 2 from Depoe Bay tomorrow morning about 05:15am for Halibut grounds.

I would like to thank ALL of you who contributed to this thread with ideas and suggestions. You are ALL highly considered friends to me. Thank you all!

As for the things that had been done that wern't exactly the problem, they ALL needed doing anyway, so I have no regrets about any of them.

[ANDYCOHO]

Way to go! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

I think I heard your sigh of relief up here in Sandy

Good luck tomorrow!

I will be to the North of all the action and fishing out of the CR in the AM.

[CAPT KUJO]

The BLACK ROCKET will see you then

[Fishplay]

[img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[Longhunter]

You are welcome for the gauge sorry we did not meet. Glad you found the trouble, you might want to go ahead and check the fuel pumps anyway, also when I tune a engine after I get everything set I put the Vacuum Gauge on a vacuum port on base plate of the Carb. and re-adjust the timing till I get the highest vacuum them back it off a couple pounds then reset idle. I believe I get better performance from my engines that way.
If you are going to ifish stock on the 9th I can get that stuff back from you then.

Paul

[Miss B Haven]

So glad you got it! :grin: :smile: That's one of those things we all have nightmares about! :shocked: [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

[bull285]

Woody, if it's still acting up after you rebuild it here's a problem that I've seen happen a few times before working as an auto mech. When the engine is running at power it will cut out and barely make an idle. After shut off for a few minutes goes back to running fine but cuts out again after a short time again. And so on. Turns out that the carbs were icing up. Fuel injected or throttle body injected engines don't have this problem because the fuel is introduced under presure and either before the venturi or way after it in the intake runners or cylinders. The owners either let the warm air or exhast gas recirculating hoses deteriorate or they removed them. One actually shoved a BB in the vacuum line that operated the gate on the breather. Took me a while to find that one. What happens is ice forms just below the venturi and blocks or disrupts the port that the fuel flows from. This tends to happen more frequently during moderate temperatures and high humidity. Conditions that exit on the water. Manufacturers have addressed this in several ways. From using an heat riser from the exhaust manifold (not likely on an marine engine, water headers) to circulating coolant through the base of the carb. Some even used an electric heater. Check to make sure that whatever system you have is working properly. Hope this helps you.

[bull285]

Sorry, Some how missed the post that you got it solved. Good Job.

[crabbait]

Congratulations! She's too pretty to limp. Glad you solved the mystery.

A big ifish salty salute to allwho offered assistance. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[Myles]

This is what ifish is all about!
Godd job guys.

myles

[Mello-Yello]

It's really great to see so many people pitch in to help Nancy out here. Something that became very obvious as this thing played out...the incredible number of things it 'could' have been. This is why maintenance on marine equipment is so vital. You can't always just 'pull over' and pop the hood to see what's wrong.

On this note, I'd like to throw in one more thing. I know most of you know this, but on the chance someone might not. Always buy marine parts when doing repairs on marine equipment. You will pay more, usually a lot more, but there's reason for that. Marine parts have additional engineering to provide increased reliability and additional safety. There are no shortcuts when it comes to boat repair and maintenance.

Good job dogs, and especially to Woody and Andy. I'm sure your efforts will be rewarded 10 fold.

M-Y