Ripped Off!

[mikelee]

So I've been fly fishing for many years and own a lot of reels (Ross, SA) and rods (Winston, Sage, Loomis, St.Croix etc.), paying $625 for one Winston 6wt. Anyway, I just bought 2 tuna spinning/casting Lamiglass rods, Avet & Penn saltwater reels with lines for a total of $550. There's way more technology in my Avet casting reel than a Ross reel, yet it cost about the same. Are we paying more because of the unconditional life time warranty, fly fisherman's are rich and can afford it. Ok, I feel better now

[2/0Dee]

Amen, we are getting screwed. I cry evey time I think about what my Tibors cost.Stinking tuna!!!
Mike

[Slow and Low]

I would venture to say that we are probably getting ripped off. On the other hand the price of aluminum continues to rise and companies like Ross or whoever sell far fewer reels thann Penn. With volume and competition prices will be more competitive.

my .02

[Grantspastor]

Unforunately there is a "snob factor" among a few fly fishermen that means the rest of us pay exorbitant prices for some "mystical" feature or features that are difficult to appreciate in real use. Just read the marketing hype when they describe their various rods. It sounds like every one...regardless of action is the best casting instrument ever developed. Lots of buzz words like ":smooth" and "delicate" along with terms that are hard to even understand. I used to spend a fortune on fly rods...feeling like I could never truly appreciate casting and fishing unless I had the latest and greatest. Nowadays...I just buy rods that look good and cast well...regardless of price. The good news is there are many fine rods out there that don't set you back $600-$1000

[Wingdam]

These companies will charge what we’re willing to pay but the real rip off is in retail! Having been on the guide program, I was able to buy Sage, Ross, Rio, and other high end products for near half the retail price (which was still to much IMHO).

[clarkman23]

Originally Posted by Grantspastor

Nowadays...I just buy rods that look good and cast well...regardless of price. The good news is there are many fine rods out there that don't set you back $600-$1000

exactly, with an emphasis on "cast well"

one of my best casting graphite rods (I don't actually fish graphite all that often anymore) cost me a whopping $140. Even my normal trout rod, a sweet casting (and looking) bamboo rod built by an amateur (sp?) builder didn't cost much more that $300...when I say "sweet casting", what I really am saying is that rod just speaks to me!!! words can't really come close to describing it...

While some of those higher end rods do indeed cast nice (for graphite), I'll never spend more than a couple hundred on a graphite rod again...of course, I'd be hard pressed to purchase any graphite rod again anyway...but that's more of my personal preference...

[Z. Kodaly]

Fly gear is a complete ripoff in many cases.

It's always amazed me how otherwise bright folks get suckered into believing marketing gimmicks. Bar stock aluminum?? Am I missing something?? Gear guys take their fishing seriously too, and I don't see them obsessing about the precise origins of the metal in their reel. An old friend of mine -- a machine shop owner who made "bar stock" fly reels in his shop when the regular business was slack--- used to giggle about what a scam it was.

Sage, Loomis, and Winston rods are nice (although my personal favorites are Talon) but you can often save a bunch on a rod by getting a factory second blank and rolling your own. My favorite rod is built on a factory second Sage blank--it was arrow straight for what it's worth-- and has a nickel silver reel seat much nicer than the one ordinarily shipped with the prebuilt rod by Sage. Total cost was $120.

There's only two instances where I can justify spending top dollar. First, always buy a decent line, and spend the full retail if you can't get it on sale. Second, if you're truly going after the big boys ---salmon or most saltwater fish, dump the Medalist---a legendary reel that's a real piece of trash--- and invest a bit of cash in a reel with a decent disc drag.

[mkwerx]

I would say that most fly tackle is overpriced. The only flyrod I'd ever pay more than $150 for would have to be made of bamboo (I do so want a bamboo rod, but I'm not spending $800+ dollars on anything that isn't a boat, a new truck, or a new rifle, unless I hit the lottery.)

I bought a Ross flywater reel to replace an Orvis Rocky Mountain that I broke the handle off of (Orvis no longer makes that particular reel, and I didn't feel like paying to 'upgrade' when I already paid for one reel that was supposed to have a 25 yr warranty). Bottom of their line - got the 3/4 large arbor. $89!!! For smaller fish that you'd target with a 3/4 (even upto the mystical 20 inch) you really do not need a disc drag. Even in the 5/6 class, I don't see a great need for disc drags. The guy pitching the reel tried telling me that the "painted on finish" wouldn't hold up like the fancy technical sounding finish on the more expensive reels of the same size. I've had 3 seasons with the Flywater, and not one problem with the "painted on" finish. Besides, the metal underneath is aluminum - not iron. Rust is not an issue.

I do definately think that snob-factor plays a large part in the price of flytackle. A lot of folks look down their noses at anything that doesn't cost $250 or more for a single rod or reel. A lot of those guys can't cast for beans either, and would be served just as well with a $20 South Bend from K-mart, and spending the remainder on casting lessons. The fish don't care who's name is on your rod.

I wouldn't catch any more fish than I already do if I plunked down the coin for a G. Loomis or upper-end Orvis/Sage/insert high $$ rod maker here stick. My wallet would be lighter, but that's about it.

[clarkman23]

Originally Posted by mkwerx

The fish don't care who's name is on your rod.

I think this is the best thing that's come out of this thread yet...

[mikelee]

This is an Avet saltwater reel that cost me $210 made in the USA. Imagine what it would cost if it had the Abel, Tibor, Galvin, Ross name on it. Some of these guys use cork for their drag system - overpriced and outdated technology.

[wapiteaser]

My favorite saying is "It is not the rod in the hand, It is the hand on the rod"

[Z. Kodaly]

Originally Posted by mikelee

This is an Avet saltwater reel that cost me $210 made in the USA. Imagine what it would cost if it had the Abel, Tibor, Galvin, Ross name on it. Some of these guys use cork for their drag system - overpriced and outdated technology.

Yeah, I've been struck by the same thing. Cork...what? Is this the 21st century?

FYI---If you're a bamboo fan-- I'm not---you may want to check out the show at the Expo center this weekend. Saw a guy walking out with several bamboo rods yesterday.

[AndyK]

An Abel Super 5 (or 5N) reel has a suggested retail of $575 and that is with a cork drag. It is a trout sized reel. Add another $200 for a fish graphic.

Price is determined by supply and demand. There must be enough of a demand to keep Abel in business.

[mini-e]

Originally Posted by mikelee

This is an Avet saltwater reel that cost me $210 made in the USA. Imagine what it would cost if it had the Abel, Tibor, Galvin, Ross name on it. Some of these guys use cork for their drag system - overpriced and outdated technology.

I make my living as a Industrial Designer/Mechanical Engineer, and I think this is a beautifully designed reel with a distinctly American look to it that I love. We as a country need to come up with stuff like this; Clever, simple, durable. Environmentally sensible simply because it is made here out off good stuff. Thanks for the Link.

[clarkman23]

Originally Posted by Z. Kodaly

FYI---If you're a bamboo fan-- I'm not---you may want to check out the show at the Expo center this weekend. Saw a guy walking out with several bamboo rods yesterday.

uh oh, you shouldn't have told me that...

[SSPey]

Originally Posted by mikelee

Some of these guys use cork for their drag system - overpriced and outdated technology.

to quote Ted Juracsik, designer of Pate and Tibor reels:

"Heat and start-up inertia are the two greatest enemies of fly reel drags. Lots of materials resist heat but don't provide low start-up throughout a broad range of settings. Cork does both very well. I'm talking about fairly large, stamped-out sheet cork disks, glued to a gear to which the spool is pressed against. Cork resists heat and compresses, which is why is it so smooth with less start-up inertia."


and Steve Abel,

"Most synthetic materials, while extremely heat-resistant, don't compress well. Accordingly, start-up drag is high or erratic. And, if a material does compress, it doesn't return to it original thickness. Under a heavy drag setting, say 50% compression, cork returns to about 75% of original thickness. That's better than anything else we've tried to date. Remember, compression is required to have a smooth, efficient drag throughout a broad range of settings. Harder materials just don't provide enough latitude. There may be exceptions, but I'm not aware of them - at least when it comes to hard-core field testing."



now this isn't to say synthetics can't make good fly reel drags. Charlton has proven this beyond any doubt. But cork has a proven track record whereas many plastic drags have melted off in the heat of the moment. They use cork because it works. Drag materials make up a negligible part of the cost of a fly reel, so there's no reason to cut corners.

as stated earlier, the high price of these reels is a supply/demand issue, and the requirement to sell for a fixed price in fly shops, which helps keep the shops in business, and generate more customers down the road. Sportman's and Joe's simply don't have the savvy (that I've seen) to serve the demands of serious fly anglers ... and that's not just about tackle, its about the whole package of fly casting, tying, and angling. No one can do everything well, that's just a fact of life. There's lots of great equipment available nowadays for cheap, and we're lucky for that ... but to assume people with expensive tackle don't know how to use it, or don't get their money's worth, just sounds like a rationalization for buying less expensive stuff. Why not just do whatever you want, and leave others to their preferences?

[mikelee]

SSPey,
I totally agreed with your comment and if you can afford it - buy it! I'm a big believer of you get what you pay for. My Simms Waders cost me $300 and it still keep me dry after 3 seasons.

[K-sigfish]

Perhaps I am jaded becuase I have been handed down really expensive equipment but I can see and feel the difference between a 150-300 dollar rod and 300-500 dollar rod. much above that and it's all emotion. However I will vouge for the ancient technology of cork drags any day. Hook 2 or 3 hot steelhead in alaska in 30 minutes or so and you will know why I say this. There is nothing smoother and more consistent than cork. Besides if they bump up there already overpriced technology with some new fangled feature, watch the price of that ross, abel, or tibor jump another $125 bucks. For the record I fish a winston vapor 6 wt with a bauer mckenzie reel and it casts about the same as my sage DS with an orvis battenkill.

[smalldog]

When we have "flyfishing only rivers" then we assume flyfishermen are rich and more important than everyone else. So, they pay accordingly.

[SSPey]

Originally Posted by smalldog

When we have "flyfishing only rivers" then we assume flyfishermen are rich and more important than everyone else. So, they pay accordingly.

does this mean that bowhunters are rich and more important than other hunters because they have their own season? Is a good bow more expensive than a good rifle?

[KillerDave]

To quantify things a little, if I’m going to drop $600+ on a single hand rod, here’s what I want it to do:
~Load easily on short (24-40’) casts yet still have enough power to throw the entire fly line.
~Roll cast well (50+ feet).
~Be forgiving when your cast timing breaks down due to fatigue (fly casting all day is tiring).
~Allow you to develop as a fly caster (I want a rod I won't outgrow)
~Be a joy to cast (the WOW factor).

While I have not cast every fly rod out there, I have cast more than a few but have yet to find the low or mid-range fly rod that can meet the above requirements. Inexpensive fly rods get you started, mid range rods usually fill a niche but only the top of the line fly rods are expertly tuned to do everything well.

High-end fly reels definitely have some snob appeal but they are so dang cool. I’ve heard it is more difficult to machine large parts (like fly reels) to exact tolerances, so they cost more than you think they should. However, they do what they’re designed to do flawlessly with almost zero failures. I’ve seen budget reels explode, usually a long way from a tackle shop that stocks replacements. When your equipment fails and you lose the fish of a lifetime while on the trip of a lifetime, the bargain factor goes out the window.

I have been fortunate to fish with some very good fly fishermen over the years. There has not been a single one that had inexpensive tackle. Sometimes it was beat up a little but it was the good stuff. The usual explanation is something along the lines of “when you get serious about the sport you buy what works and go fishing.”

Regarding being ripped off, sure this happens but not by the creators of our top rods & reels. It is a competitive business. As the saying goes “If you got what you paid for then you didn’t pay too much. If you didn’t get what you paid for, then you got ripped off.”

[Orange Heron]

The good stuff costs more!! The cheap stuff will cost you more in the long run.

Rich

[Slow and Low]

Originally Posted by wapiteaser

My favorite saying is "It is not the rod in the hand, It is the hand on the rod"

True but nice stuff in a good hand, or better yet two hands is even better.

There is a big difference in performance and quality betwen a $200 rod and an $800 rod. Anyone who dissagrees hasn't had the opportunity to fish both or doesn't have the skill level to know the difference. I know it sounds snobby, and I am no snob, but it's a fact.

[Breck]

I have been introducing my wife to fly fishing over the past couple of years. I got her set up with a couple of Grigg rods. She has a 5 weight fiberglass rod for trout and an 8 weight for steelhead/coho. Both rods were just shy of the $100 mark, have a lifetime warranty, and are locally made. Great rods for the $$$. She has learned to cast pretty well using these "cheapies".

[Zugbug66]

Slow is right. I have an echo 7/8 spey which I love to fish, fun summer rod, and will fish winters fine also. But I got an 8 wt Vision this Year, and the difference is noticed immediately! With that said, there are deals out there. I had a chance to try a 7/8 deer creek rod which felt like one of the best rods I've casted in that price range.
When talking about reels (for freshwater use) on the other hand, You can get a Bar stock reel with a reliable drag without breaking the bank. And I do bellieve barstock is the way to go. But reels are like the "Bling" of your setup. Some just look cooler than others. It just comes down to Your personal preference.
Wayne

[Steelie28]

Originally Posted by 2/0Dee

Amen, we are getting screwed. I cry evey time I think about what my Tibors cost.Stinking tuna!!!
Mike

Just like everything else, you pay for what you get. As for Tibors, you are simply getting the smoothest drag out there, that's worth every penny to me. Oh yeah, I do like the outclick as well. Still don't understand why Abels don't have it.

[saltchucker]

Cool thread,
I have an old medalist 1495 1/2 with which I caught my first bonefish, snook, tarpon (small), steelhead, coho, lots of trout, barracuda...... When I was just starting flyfishing in florida as a kid (lucky kid!) there were medalists, which you could get souped up (mine is not), valentines, fin-nor's and gulp...the holy grail of reels then the Sea Master.

I don't think I would have the gumption to cast to an albacore with that medalist although Lee Wulf is credited with landing a striped marlin with a medalist 1498...... If I am fishing smaller stuff (4-6) wt I often go cheap and light salt or otherwise. I am currently really fond of the Okuma graphite (plastic?) reels for 30 bucks. I just don't worry when they are washing around in the bottom of the canoe in saltwater and everglades muck.. or in the sand trying to unbutton a snook on the beach...the ross reels I pamper more.

As for rods....man almost everytime I pick up the high end sage rods in 2-7 wt range and cast them I buckle and reach for the card good rods are the bomb!

Why are high end fly rods and reels so much more that conventional tackle?....you can buy a great graphite spinning rod at bi-mart for 30 bucks!

I suspect that the gobal demand for Avet reels and conventional tackle in general is on the order of 10-1000 times or more than the demand for high end saltwater big game fly reels and tackle....Which means that each rod and reel sold by a sage/abel/tibor etc... has to pay for vastly more R&D, marketing, etc......As for high end highly engineered drags for 5 wts and trout....you can set a cheap click drag very light! I don't buy the need for really high end drags for most fish under 15 lbs....(possibly bonefish and bluewater excepted). How hard can you really pull on 4-10 lb tippet? They are cool, beautiful and fun to own no doubt....but seem like bling bling to me.

The other point coming through here that I completely agree with is that plenty of cheap production fly tackle available today suitable for trout, bass, light inshore saltwater is dandy stuff but could get you in trouble with salmon steelhead etc.....

Fish with what you like, go more often, and don't spend more than you can afford! No?

saltchucker

[garyk]

Originally Posted by saltchucker

I suspect that the gobal demand for Avet reels and conventional tackle in general is on the order of 10-1000 times or more than the demand for high end saltwater big game fly reels and tackle....Which means that each rod and reel sold by a sage/abel/tibor etc... has to pay for vastly more R&D, marketing, etc......

Finally the right answer. Fly guys are buying boutique gear manufactured on a very small scale.

ROSS is selling hundreds of flyreels. AVET is selling tens-of-thousands just in the USA. (BTW, I do own several of both)

Of the TOTAL US fishing gear market, I'd be surprised if flyfishing has even 3% of the total dollar volume. It's a tiny niche market.

Snob appeal of high end FF reels? Maybe. However, those FF snobs would learn what rung of the snobbery scale they're truly on (a very low one) if they'd visit the reel case of a southern saltwater tackle store.

[Steelie28]

Originally Posted by garyk

Snob appeal of high end FF reels? Maybe. However, those FF snobs would learn what rung of the snobbery scale they're truly on (a very low one) if they'd visit the reel case of a southern saltwater tackle store.

Very true, go pick up a couple Penn International Big Game reels and see how your wallet reacts!

[saltchucker]

Yeah, there is no shortage of opportunity to spend big bucks on highly engineered conventional reels. Of course the market for very high end saltwater gear is tiny relative to say light spinning, but very large relative to saltwater fly reels.....Many big saltwater boats have some really high end gear, a very few have a single high end fly outfit....


It is worht noting that it is probably not an accident that the big bucks come out for tackle that is designed to handle the largest hottest fish on earth....saltwater. Which you generally need some bucks to do. Fly guys target the little dudes out there...

WR

[oceansunfish]

It's not just fly rods and reel..... Rio upped their prices on flylines this past week. The new Rio Outbound Short, which is a speciality line meant to assist in tossing big bulky patterns, is $75!

Are fly lines made of oil?!

I just examined a Sage Z-Axis 697-4 and it was $705 C'mon this is a joke. I compare it to my Nikon D-SLR or the DX 18-200 lens and I think to myself, in one hand I am holding a stick and the other captures incredible images in high resolution.

On the other hand, it's widely known that margins for the retailer for conventional gear is lousy compared to fly fishing retailers.

[mkwerx]

I just picked up a Rio 8 weight line today from Kaufmann's for $64 - might be that they haven't upped their prices to the new price point, or maybe it's just because it's a different line. What made my eyes bug out was lines that cost triple digits. I'll buy good quality fly lines - but I'm not dropping $100+ on a line. I'd never be able to fish it - I'd fear running it over rocks, or getting it stuck on something, or tangled so badly in such a place that I couldn't readily untangle it and it'd snap, etc. I've had fly lines snap before - it hurts when a $40 or 50 line snaps. I can only imagine the words and tears uttered and shed over a $100 or $125 line...

I guess though, if you're buying one of those $700 flyrods, putting a $300 reel on it, $125 for a line is a small price, and won't make your wallet much lighter.

I just ordered my most expensive rod to date yesterday - an Albright 10 foot 7/8 with a 9/10 size GP reel. If they hadn't been 70% off, I probably wouldn't have bought 'em. As it is, with shipping the rod & reel came to $92. W/O discount, the rod was $149, and hte reel runs $125. We'll see if the performance is any different from the Lami 8 weight I used to own. I'm anxious to get the new combo in. I should have 'em right in time for the beginning of winter steelhead.

[Orange Heron]

Originally Posted by oceansunfish

It's not just fly rods and reel..... Rio upped their prices on flylines this past week. The new Rio Outbound Short, which is a speciality line meant to assist in tossing big bulky patterns, is $75!

Are fly lines made of oil?!

I just examined a Sage Z-Axis 697-4 and it was $705 C'mon this is a joke. I compare it to my Nikon D-SLR or the DX 18-200 lens and I think to myself, in one hand I am holding a stick and the other captures incredible images in high resolution.

On the other hand, it's widely known that margins for the retailer for conventional gear is lousy compared to fly fishing retailers.

Trust me, fly fishing retailers margins suck also.

Rich

[UTFA]

Come on now..............
If you can't pay.....don't play!

Quit *******.... and keep on fishin!

[Two Fister]

Originally Posted by oceansunfish

I compare it to my Nikon D-SLR or the DX 18-200 lens and I think to myself, in one hand I am holding a stick and the other captures incredible images in high resolution.

OK. A stick maybe, but it's made out of pretty remarkable carbon fiber/graphite technology that was only available to the military and NASA until a short time ago. The digital technology in your Nikon is likely very similar to the technology in a Kodak digital camera. Talk about a rip off. The glass is the difference in your camera.

Also don't forget that a lot of the pioneering was done by Sage, Winston and other high end rod makers. I don't think the research done by Berkely for their Buzz Ramsey series translates all that well. Their recent counterparts producing less expensive fly rods have been able to spend their time reverse engineering their rods for production in Korea and China. Cost savings are to be expected.

I've got both really expensive rods and really cheap rods. I don't get to fish nearly as much as I used to so I grab the nice rods when I get to go. They are a pleasure to cast and I can feel the difference. Does that mean you have to drop $600 on a Winston WT 4 weight to fish caddis on the Deschutes? Nope. If you're like me, and you manage to get your hands on one for an evening of non-stop dry fly action, you'll skrimp and save until you have your own. That's what happened to me. I didn't know there was a difference until I got my paws on one. Probably the worst day for my bank account ever....

Same with reels. I don't see any reason to have an expensive trout reel, as a simple click and pawl will suffice, but I have several old Hardys and a series on Winston Perfects (made by Hardy) because they are so *******' beautiful. I fish them on special occassions, which lately seems to be any rare occassion to fish. Did I pay too much for them, probably, but I know that I'll give them to my sons one day (when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers) and it'll mean something. It'll mean something, not because they were expensive, but because they are so *******' beautiful. My Sci Anglers System 2 reels (which are my workhorses and awesome reels) probably won't have quite the impact at that time. Then again they're boat rashed, banged up and pretty well shot because they see a lot more use.

Saltwater is a whole different equation. I've seen inexpensive reels come apart under moderate stress conditions. Nothing worse than having spent a dump truck of cash and traveled for days on all manner of transport to get someplace exotic only to have a piece of equipment fail. Makes high end gear seem pretty affordable when that happens. If you have one chance at a permit or 100+ pound tarpon on a fly then the extra $200 is worth it every time for tried and tested gear, IMHO.

TF

[saltchucker]

Originally Posted by Two Fister

OK. A stick maybe, but it's made out of pretty remarkable carbon fiber/graphite technology that was only available to the military and NASA until a short time ago. The digital technology in your Nikon is likely very similar to the technology in a Kodak digital camera. Talk about a rip off. The glass is the difference in your camera.

Also don't forget that a lot of the pioneering was done by Sage, Winston and other high end rod makers. I don't think the research done by Berkely for their Buzz Ramsey series translates all that well. Their recent counterparts producing less expensive fly rods have been able to spend their time reverse engineering their rods for production in Korea and China. Cost savings are to be expected.

I've got both really expensive rods and really cheap rods. I don't get to fish nearly as much as I used to so I grab the nice rods when I get to go. They are a pleasure to cast and I can feel the difference. Does that mean you have to drop $600 on a Winston WT 4 weight to fish caddis on the Deschutes? Nope. If you're like me, and you manage to get your hands on one for an evening of non-stop dry fly action, you'll skrimp and save until you have your own. That's what happened to me. I didn't know there was a difference until I got my paws on one. Probably the worst day for my bank account ever....

Same with reels. I don't see any reason to have an expensive trout reel, as a simple click and pawl will suffice, but I have several old Hardys and a series on Winston Perfects (made by Hardy) because they are so *******' beautiful. I fish them on special occassions, which lately seems to be any rare occassion to fish. Did I pay too much for them, probably, but I know that I'll give them to my sons one day (when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers) and it'll mean something. It'll mean something, not because they were expensive, but because they are so *******' beautiful. My Sci Anglers System 2 reels (which are my workhorses and awesome reels) probably won't have quite the impact at that time. Then again they're boat rashed, banged up and pretty well shot because they see a lot more use.

Saltwater is a whole different equation. I've seen inexpensive reels come apart under moderate stress conditions. Nothing worse than having spent a dump truck of cash and traveled for days on all manner of transport to get someplace exotic only to have a piece of equipment fail. Makes high end gear seem pretty affordable when that happens. If you have one chance at a permit or 100+ pound tarpon on a fly then the extra $200 is worth it every time for tried and tested gear, IMHO.

TF

copy that. I would point out that most of us westerners miss the distincton between inshore saltwater and big game, cheap freshwater gear will take you a long way fishing the beach in florida and land you lots of fish, you should of course resist the temptation to cast when a 150 tarpon blast a bunch of mullet at your feet or just break it off before it toasts your reel. When you are catching lots of 15-25 inch snook etc on 4-7 wts the reel don't make that much difference besides wants to fish heavy tackle for small fish. Not too many people get their 8 wt 14 ft spey out to target SRC.