Trip Cancelled today - Could use some help please

[Sea Jypzee]

Sea Jypzee headed out of Depoe Bay at 05:15 this morning, headed for the Tuna Town. Port engine began acting up again, 4 miles off of the Whistle Bouy. Trip cancelled.

Am going to probably give both engines a complete tune-up, and if need be, just have the carb rebuilt on that port side. Generally in the past, the engine didn't start acting up till we'd been out several hours and were on the trip back in. Today, it was very soon, and I wasn't willing to take a chance on an iffy engine, with a forcast of building wind and seas for later in the day. [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

Soooo, here's the problem. [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] I could use any suggestions, ideas, or assistance anyone might be able to offer. Will offer up a seat for a day of fishing, Salmon, Tuna, Halibut, Bottom Fishing, (you pick your fish) to anyone who is willing and able to come assist in getting this problem taken care of.

Problem - Up till this morning, after several hours,(run out great, troll all day, and on the trip back in usually) the port engine would begin cutting out, almost as if it's running out of gas. (Boat has twin 350ci. inboards). I could sometimes keep it running by cutting back on the throttle, but not always and sometimes it would stall out. It would always restart. For a while, I thought it was maybe only when the gas tank got low, but obviously this morning the tank was topped off, and the problem still there. I've replaced the inline fuel/water filter, as well as the filter inside of the carborator. (the carb filter had a lot of crap in it. Put a new one in a few days ago).

Soooo, anyone available around Depoe Bay who wants to earn a free seat, for a little work on an engine? :grin: [img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

[ 07-20-2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Sea Jypzee ]

[Metal Manipulator]

If your engines electrical includes points and condensor they can act up when they get warm. I know when I had problems the condensor would short and it burned out my coil which should have had an internal resister. One place to start. I replaced the fuel pump, rebuilt carburator, fuel filter, cap, rotor and spark plugs. Time and money spent because of the condensor. Good luck, I know it can be frustrating even for the best of mechanics.
[img]graemlins/1zhelp.gif[/img]

[kenai]

I had a similar problem on an older Apollo 24 footer with a 350 cid. The problem would only show up after travelling several miles. After multiple tuning sessions, I rebuilt the carb, changed fuel filters, etc I finally gave up and took it to a shop and they couldnt find anything wrong.
There is a ball check valve between the fuel tank and the motor to prevent fuel backflow as the boat is tilted bow up, it can stick intermittently and prevent fuel flow. Worth a look maybe.

[Mr. Fisherman]

Bummer dude but WELL Done on making the call. I know how difficult that can be.
You should have a good idea if it is carb related by pulling the bowl off the carb and checking the jet. Be careful not to bend the float and don't loose any parts.
Check that the jet tip is not distorted or plugged.
If it is clean then the problem is likely ignition.
I converted my last inboard to electronic ignition, It was a marked improvement but I always worried about component failure. I could about always get a set of points to work again... But it was never a problem for me so maybe I just worried for nothing.
Keep us informed on your progress. I would like to come help you out but I am back to working Grave shift in Aloha and I have a boat of my own to get ready.
Hope to see you out there...

[Sea Jypzee]

Ok, thanks to Woody from here, he and son are coming out wednesday to do a tune up on the engine. Off to NAPA in Newport for all the parts. Hopefully this will solve the problem quickly! Will of course update here after wednesday either way.

You're all a great bunch!! Thanks for the help on this one.

[graybeard]

Dude? A Registered Nurse that goes by the name of Nancy..... "that dude look like a lady" :grin:

gb

[Sea Jypzee]

I just didn't have the heart to say anything to him!!

[TWB]

All of the above are good answers, it sounds like electrial to me. However the crud you are getting in the fuel filter doesn't sound good.

I think that Wet Fly and Mr. Fisherman might be real close to the answer. If the engines are equipped with the old style point ignition and not electronic ignition, the coil will break down and the engine will run badly and finally will not run. It will not do it until the coil gets hot. I have been through that one several times.

Here is a quick check.

Go to the boat and find out if it has a coil or electronic ignition. If you don't no the difference there should be someone around the docks that could look at it and tell you.
If it is equipped with a coil, swap the coils from one engine to the other. Take it out and see if the other engine now has the problem.

If it has electronic ignition then it's back to square one. If it needs a tune up it should run bad all the time.

It sounds like something is stopping the flow of fuel or an electrical break down.

On my twin engine boat, converting to electronic ignition stopped all of those ignition problems.

Hope to have my own boat down there next weekend, be glad to look at it then, if you don't get it fixed this week.

Keep us posted on the progress, I would like to here the answer to this one myself.

Jerry

[ 07-20-2003, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: TWB ]

[Orca]

Jypzee,

Hope you are back on the water soon. If you find it is an ignition problem, and you decide to go electronic, check ebasicpower.com and boatfix.com. I put a new electronic distributor (including wires and coil) in mine for $219 with free shipping if I remember right.

If you happen to have an OMC (but I figure you have mercruiser) then I have a Pertronix electronic module for the Prestolite distributor you can try out.

[ 07-20-2003, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Orca ]

[PBR Streetgang]

If you had a really dirty fuel filter I would check that again when you do the tune-up. You may be pulling junk from your tank. You might also check fuel pressure.

Tim

[Woody]

Thanks for the input guys. The first thing that jumped into my mind was that it was fuel related somehow. She said she replaced the fuel filters, and they were pretty gunky. We'll look at them, but why would the port engine be sucking up junk and not the starboard. I'll look at both fuel filters, in-line, in-carb, both sides. Now I'm thinking the problem is either fuel related or heat induced electrical ie; coil, electronic ignition

My kid and I will put our heads together and troubleshoot the problem, we havn't had one beat us yet. Like my dad always used to say..Fuel Air Spark.

[Sea Jypzee]

Ok, one last post, then I need to get some sleep. Just found out I need to work 8p-8a tonight for a sick call, and have been up since 03:45 this morning for todays trip. :shocked:

Keta - Dudette, I think would be the proper spelling.

TWB - It has old-style ignition system in it. I went down and was going to try swapping the coils, however the bolt holding the coil on the starboard engine is blocked by the distributer, and the only way to get to it would mess up the timing. I figure that one is running good for now, and I didn't wanna mess with it yet.

Orca - Yes, it's mercruiser engines.

Orca & TWB - I don't have the funds right now to do it, but what all is involved in converting them to electronic ignition? Maybe do it over the winter this year if it'd be worthwhile.

PBR - Both engines draw from the same fuel tank, so I would expect that the other engine would have the same problem. Especially since I just changed the filters on the port engine, yet the problem is still there. Had someone suggest possibly a fuel pump, as initially it happened seemingly when the fuel tank got low (making the fuel pump work harder). But since it happened this morning with a full tank, I'd have my doubts about that being the problem. That and it always starts back up fairly easily right away. (just not for very long till all has been down for a while)

Woody - Thanks so much for coming down to help with this. Everything was closed up today so I couldn't replace the coil yet, but I do have the old one off of the port engine now. Figured I'd go ahead and get a new one and try it. Probably not a bad idea to have an extra one onboard anyway if it turns out not to be the problem.

Thanks to all of you for your help on this. It's greatly appreciated!!

[skein]

Sounds fuelish to me.

I know of a situation where silicon was used around a fuel tank fitting. The gas gradually dissolved the sealant, letting pieces of gunk break free and plug the filters and bowls, causing a similar problem to what you describe.

Could be the fuel line feeding the port engine has something like that somewhere along the route.

It's worth a look.

Skein

[Orca]

Jypzee,

The conversion to electronic is straight-forward, and you can do it 2 ways - drop an electronic conversion into your current distributor, or buy a new electronic distributor.

Drop-in conversions are made by Pertronix. You remove your points/condensor, remove the plate the points are attached to, and drop in the new plate/electronics in place of the plate that was removed. You also want a low resistance 12 V coil to go with it, and you have to remove the original coil resistor or resistor wire feeding the + side of the coil. Conversion kit and coil would be about $120 from ebasicpower.com.

If you go with a new distributor (which I did since my advance was broken and new springs did not fix the problem), then you just mark the current distributor/rotor location or go to TDC, then pull the old distributor out and drop the new one in. Attach a couple wires and you are done. You also want a new coil and resistor wire removal also. $219 including coil from ebasicpower, but they are currently out-of-stock on this item.

I have the right coil and the electronic conversion for a Prestolite distributor (with screw-down cap) if that happens to be the distributor you have now. I see the part numbers for OMC and Mercruiser Prestolite distributors are the same. They can be yours if you need them, they are just collecting dust at my place. Now that I think of it, will I even ba able to find them?

You or Woody should be able to find the tag on the distributor and get the brand/model #.

[ 07-20-2003, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: Orca ]

Dudett? :grin:

[TWB]

You are absolutley right, you don't need to do a conversation now. That's a winter time project, the fishing season is short, and once the problem is discovered they should run just fine.

The thing is , you still don't no why the engine stops running, and there is no sense replacing parts, one at a time, to try and find out the problem. Keep in mind that there are still other things that could be the problem, points, condenser, plugs, wiring, alt., distributor, battery, and that fuel thing? :whazzup: And the list goes on.

It sounds to me that Woody has it dialed in and should be able to get that engine running.

Looks like wind and fog this week, good time to do the work.

I will give you my thoughts about converting to electronic ignition later.
Good luck,

Jerry

[CAPT KUJO]

You probably have a good mechanic, but I have done business with Ken Servin of Servin Marine in Newport and he is a TOP NOTCH guy not to mention very honest. His number is 541-867-3703. Tell him I sent you.

CAPT KUJO

[Sea Jypzee]

Kujo - :grin: Ken Serven and I are on a first name basis. I've been dealing with him for the past several years and have nearly paid for whatever his current boat is. [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

Woody - I went ahead and ordered a new replacement coil for the port engine this morning. Will be in tomorrow, so I'll put it on and have it done by the time you get here wednesday. Am going to pull off the rotor and points and get new parts ordered today so hopefully will have it all before wednesday. They can't order till he sees what exactly is in there for part #'s.

TWB - I have no doubt that both engines are well over due for tune-ups, etc anyway so ordering and replacing these parts is not a loss really. The guy who traded the boat into the dealer I purchased it from literally told me he did little to NO maintenance on it at all. When I asked him the last time he had changed the oil on the engines, his response was, I did that one time. Thankfully they were in good condition still. So doing all these things now is just insurance to me. I have no doubt it's all over-due.

[ 07-21-2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Sea Jypzee ]

[Pilar]

Sea Jypzee, I have had a problem with my 4 cyl mercruiser for some time now. I costs $6 to fix and takes about 5 minutes.

Buy a replacement condensor and install it, it will not change your timing or cause any other problems. Carry a spare, they are cheap. Just three screws. 2 on the cap and one holds the part in.

I'll explain ... Let me put on my Electrical engineer hat first ...

Ok, you can thank Nafta and the folks who sent our formerly American made products overseas to be manufactured by slave labor. The result is shoddy parts and subgrade components.

The condensor is part of the primary (12 volts DC) ignition circuit consisting of an ignition coil (12,000 volts and up is typical), a set of points and a condensor. The condensor absorbs part of the voltage and current surge that occurs when the points open repeatedly as they do thousands of times in a minute at cruise speed. This current surge would quickly destroy your points by arcing and burning them away to nothing.

The condensor is made of a roll of three or five sheets of material rolled into a cylinder shape and fitted into a metal tube. The materials are 2 sheets of thin metal foil and one or three sheets of a thin plastic electrically insulating material like Mylar.

The problem is heat. As the engine runs for several hours, all parts of it heat clear through including the distributor housing, points and condensor. What happens is the plastic sheets in the condensor melt or electrically break down and begin to let the juice go to the metal can or to each other. This shorts out the power to the coil and makes the motor run like .... you need to turn around and head in.

Lately there has been a quality problem with capacitors like the condensors in your ignition system in general and sheet plastic insulating material made in cheap offshore factories in particular.

Either type of (melted insulation or burned through) failure will cause an intermittant ignition and a worsening engine miss. You will only notice this problem on an engine that has run long enough to thoroughly heat all the metal in the block clear through. This can take hours. It may run fine when cooled down. It never heals itself and the condensor will eventually short out permanently and fail outright.

You can buy a better grade of condensor and may cure your problem permanently by doing so. Standard Ignition, (American made and high quality) Blue Streak is available at Napa and the part # for your boat is DR-90x for $6. They have it in stock at Shucks, Baxters and Napa. While you are there buy a couple of spares and maybe get spare belts for both engines too.

The coil may fail but that is rare and the condensor IMHO and some others above is the obvious first thing to try. Fuel can be isolated as a problem by using a deck tank with clean fuel. If the problem goes away when you are running on the deck can then the problem is obvious.

One last word of advice from a guy who 'fixes' stuff for a living.

You can easter egg hunt a problem by changing all the parts one by one ... you may even apparently be successful ... but you will never fix it permanently unless you understand the problem's cause and address it.

[ 07-21-2003, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Pilar ]

[Pilar]

Nancy, the next time (let's hope it does not happen again) this happens, immediately check the area under the cap of the distributor for heat. The first time I did this on my boat it burned my hand.

The pickup sensor in the distributor and the coil will respond to heat in a similar fashion. This occurs for the same reason, insulation break down.

One technique I use now to limit the problem is to periodically unload the engine (slow down) and allow it cool down under reduced load. This is not always practical because sometimes you just have to run hard.

The Standard, Blue Streak condensors last 6 months or more as opposed to 20 hours before I understood what was happening and before I started using the new part.

Good luck and tell us what the answer was when you figure it out. We could all maybe learn something.

[ 07-21-2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Pilar ]

[Woody]

Pilar, Thanks for the input, I think your probably right. I've had problems with bad condensers, too. It was one of the most frustrating problems I've ever run across until I figured it out. Like you said

but you will never fix it permanently unless you understand the problem's cause and address it.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">My plan is to do a full tune up on both engines, plugs, points, cap, rotor, condenser, and wires. Not because I want Nancy to throw money at the problem but because, based on the input of the previous owner, it needs it. I agree however, that the problem is most likely a heat related electrical problem, like the condenser or the coil, most likely the condenser.

[ 07-21-2003, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Woody ]

[Sea Jypzee]

Pilar - Thanks so much for the electronics lesson. You're a very good instructor, as well as tuna fisherman.

Just went back down to the boat and pulled the distributer cap off. Turns out that the boat does have Electronic Ignition. The guys who'd looked at it the other day (just casually looking) said it was regular).

As I mentioned the coil is already ordered,(yes, it's for Electronic Ignition, as I just called to confirm) and will be in tomorrow. I'll first try putting that on, and test it...then let Woody and his son do the rest on wednesday regardless if the coil fixes it or not. I figure I'd rather have a fresh tune-up on it, and know when it was done last then be 'in the dark' and never knowing when something else may give up.

[Sea Jypzee]

Well a brief update here this morning. I put in the new coil and the engine fired right up. There is no real way to give it a good trial today as the wind and seas are pretty nasty here in the big harbor of Depoe Bay. :depressed:

I did try though. :grin: The coasties have a 16' restriction on the bar here, (which is absolutly insane). The seas were crap, with waves coming close to over the bow of MY boat. I'd hate to be out in anything smaller than even a 24' boat on a day like today. Went out past the bell bouy and turned around and headed in. For that SHORT trip, the engine ran like a top. No problems. Will go for the tune-up tomorrow now with Woody and go from there. Hopefully the winds won't be quite so nasty tomorrow so we can sea trial it better.

[CAPT KUJO]

Hope it works from you..My prayers are with you. We need every available Tuna Slayer in August for SURE. I'll be back down on the 1st and 2nd to do combo trips (halibut & Tuna)

CAPT KUJO

[Sea Jypzee]

Well just a quick update here. Put the new coil on yesterday, put new spark-plugs, wires, distributer cap and rotor on today, and set the timing. We just got in from the sea trial and it ran perfectly. The ocean is still kinda crappy, so we didn't go very far, a couple of miles to the north and then ran back down. I pushed that engine harder just to TRY to make it fail and it ran perfect. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Sooooo, I am hopeful that the problem is now solved and closed. Time will tell for sure. After the wind and seas settle back down, will get it out for a better trial.

I'd like to thank Woody and his son Andy for a job well done. You both are the greatest, and are welcome on the Sea Jypzee any time.

[WildHawg]

Great news Nancy. Hope it is problem solved. Heaven forbid, if it is not, you have performed much needed maintenance that will help forestall future problems--sounds like a winner no matter which way the ball bounces.

Woody: You and your son are the men!! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]
Thanks for helping my buddy out.

Jenny L. and Pilar: None of this kind of sharing, helping, friendship and camraderie would be possible without you. Thank you VERY much [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[Sea Jypzee]

Wildhawg - thanks. There's still more to do on the maintenance scene for the boat, but it's coming along. Still have the other engine to do a tune up on next.

You're very right, without ifish I'd have had to pay to have this done, which would've cost me much more than a fishing trip, and would've meant further down time. Thanks Jen and the other ifish admin folks. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[Woody]

It was really nice to meet you today Nancy. Another great Ifisher, whats with this place! I'd be proud take my son tuna fishing with you on the Sea Jypzee. Thats saying a lot, I wouldn't trust just anyone to take my boy out there on the big blue.

Marine engines are different, that's for sure. Andy and I enjoyed the challenge. It sure was great to hear that Port engine purring like a kitten, then roaring when you put the hammer down. You should have seen the look on Andys' face when you throttled up those 350's and started climbing swells. Nothing like the sound of TWIN V-8's to make a 17 yr old motorheads face break out in a ear to ear grin. Well, that and girls.

You can thank Pilar for leading (or should I say towing) me to Ifish. I'd also like to thank him AGAIN.

[Phil Layer]

Nancy,

Do you have a pic of the Sea Jypzee?

I want to holler at you if I see you on the water.

Good to hear your boat is running well.

[Sea Jypzee]

Phil - Please do give a shout if ya see me about. The VHF scans 78, along with several other channels almost all the time I'm out on the water. Can be reached on the CB as well. Usually keep it on 21 when in the Depoe Bay area for local traffic.

Woody - Awwww, thanks! I hope Andy enjoyed our little boat ride. He'll get a lot more when we go chase the tuna.

Pilar - Thanks to you as well for helping to bring this bunch of ifishers together.

[TWB]

Sea Jypzee,

Things are sounding good for you, I would think that the real test will come when you make a long run. That's when it seems that it gave it up on you. However, wait for that nasty wind to stop before you do that! :shocked:

I think the good news is that the engines are electronic ignition, no swap to do, she's all set to go.

I am still thinking that there was a break down in the coil, or condenser(probably not a condenser on that distributor.) Hope that this takes care of the problem for you. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Jerry

[Sea Jypzee]

TWB - Ya, I won't be heading out to the salty pond for at least the next 4-5 days. I'm working today through till sunday, so won't have time to make any runs out this weekend. We'll see what the wind and seas are doing next week.

The problem came up early into the trip out this past sunday (thus the cause for the trip being cancelled). I'm hoping that running just 5-10 miles out and back in would be enough to show or not. Hopefully the coil and work we did yesterday took care of it for good.