Federal Blackcloud

[Jeremy]

Anybody swear by it? I usually swear by everything that comes out of my gun but thats just because i cant hit anything. Just curious if its living up to the hype now that its been out for a couple years and if anyone has seen a noticied improvement in kill ratios with it vs. anything else? None the less i picked up 6 boxes of it today for $15 a box so we will see what happens.

[SImudBogger]

I'll buy a box or 2 just to see how it does. i usually do good enough with the cheap stuff, why not try so "higher quality"

Get em close enough and you could use a trap load.

[jnicholson]

It's outstanding on decoying birds. If you're looking for long shots, you are better off with something like Fasteel.

I'll swear by it.

John and Bucky

[DogZilla15]

Nicholson:

What chokes are you shooting your faststeel through? The results I've had with that ammo is dismal at anything over 25 yards.

On a recent trip to Saskatchewan I was shooting my Remington "slowsteel" 1 3/8 oz of 2's and killed ducks (and snow geese) consistently out to 45 yards while the other guys shooting faststeel made a lot of noise. Maybe they are bad shots or maybe it was the ammo. Can't say for sure.

[quackersnacker]

[quote=Jeremy;2219964]Anybody swear by it? I usually swear by everything that comes out of my gun but thats just because i cant hit anything. [quote]

I'm in the same boat, but I usually swear at everything that comes out of my gun. It has to be the gun's fault, right? I have been thinking about trying those Black Clouds though. I've heard from friends that tried them and they thought very highly of them. Of course, they are better shots than I.

[jnicholson]

Originally Posted by DogZilla15

Nicholson:

What chokes are you shooting your faststeel through? The results I've had with that ammo is dismal at anything over 25 yards.

On a recent trip to Saskatchewan I was shooting my Remington "slowsteel" 1 3/8 oz of 2's and killed ducks (and snow geese) consistently out to 45 yards while the other guys shooting faststeel made a lot of noise. Maybe they are bad shots or maybe it was the ammo. Can't say for sure.

I don't use fasteel, I use Blackcloud on decoying ducks.

[baltz526]

it uses a wad with air brakes and no slits in front, the wad is the choke in effect. screw in your imp cyl choke. the guys i have read who like them are pass shooters. 1 1/4 oz of BB's at 1450fps. keep your shots under 45yds

[jnicholson]

Originally Posted by baltz526

it uses a wad with air brakes and no slits in front, the wad is the choke in effect. screw in your imp cyl choke. the guys i have read who like them are pass shooters. 1 1/4 oz of BB's at 1450fps. keep your shots under 45yds

Right and Wrong. You're description of how it works is correct but I'd like to point out some field observations and actual use on my part. I am not a pass shooter and this is not a pass shooter load! In fact it is a lousy load if you are shooting out over 35 yards for pass shooting.

The cutter pellets are
extremely irratic and out past that distance the group is lousy. You can test it your self by setting up 4' cardboard sections every 5 feet out to 45 yards like I have and see what happens. Do the work, field
test it on paper.

18 yards to 30 is ideal and the cutters put the ducks into a nervous system meltdown. The cutters also do not tear up the bird.

at about 15 yards the wad starts slowing down due to the tail fins and the 60/40 mix of round pellets
and cutter pellets starts to open up. We shot several cases last year into birds last year and bought several more.

The cutters follow the round pellets out to about 20 to 25 yards and then spin out irratically.

The terrific advantage comes with hunting with it. You can almost eliminate that percentage of ducks that continue to fly and then dump way out in the lake or river. This stuff knocks them down now. Four of my hunting buddies are using them now after watching what it did to ducks hunting with me last year. I am not a great shot but when big duck start dumping in front of you and end up completely motionless in the water, it makes it look like you whallupped them with the full load almost every time.

It's the best affordable load I know of for DECOYING ducks. Heavy shot is not an affordable for me on ducks because I hunt alot.

I will say that it is a dirty load. I get more dust and crud in my eyes from using this stuff than anything I've ever used


John and Bucky

[baltz526]

i'm not shooting them, i'm shooting reloads. the wad in the black cloud ammo is the best thing about the shells. your the only person i have ever read that liked the black clouds for close range. go figure! everyone else is killing geese pass shooting. the comments i read on decoying birds are: to tight of pattern, but OK for the longer shots. that is shotgunning though, some are good at killing birds at 15yds, some kill more at 40yds. normally it is not the shell but the shooter that kills the bird. for decoying birds the cheapest steel shot you can find is perfect, why wast the money for exspensive shells

[jnicholson]

Good point on yardage. One persons definition of a long shot might be diferent than mine.
If you set your decoys up so that you are shooting at birds 15 yards out with this load ....... you're going to have a tough day because at that yardage you might as well be shooting slugs I set for 20 to 30 yard shots. I knocked down 5 mallards last year with 4 shots with GUNNER and then went out and shot a half a box missing divers at under 15 yards. Paul was laughing so hard he probably pished in his waders until I finally figured it out and we moved the boat back. That was before I did the paper testing in the field to see what was going on.
On another trip he hit a duck about 10 feet out and it came down with out a head.
Set up and use Black Cloud keeping a 20 to 30 yard shot in mind and I think it's the most deadly waterfowl load out there for the money.

John

[OR_Bo_Huntr]

Originally Posted by jnicholson

Good point on yardage. One persons definition of a long shot might be diferent than mine.
If you set your decoys up so that you are shooting at birds 15 yards out with this load ....... you're going to have a tough day because at that yardage you might as well be shooting slugs I set for 20 to 30 yard shots. I knocked down 5 mallards last year with 4 shots with GUNNER and then went out and shot a half a box missing divers at under 15 yards. Paul was laughing so hard he probably pished in his waders until I finally figured it out and we moved the boat back. That was before I did the paper testing in the field to see what was going on.
On another trip he hit a duck about 10 feet out and it came down with out a head.
Set up and use Black Cloud keeping a 20 to 30 yard shot in mind and I think it's the most deadly waterfowl load out there for the money.

John

I agree with John
I have used this quite a bit last year for geese in BB and BBB...as with any decent load, a bird with a breast shot that it presents in tight is dead, however, I have had awesome luck shooting at higher passing birds, due to what I believe is the special shot in their, it takes 1/2 of normal steel in the kill zone to pull one from high up.
That said, I cant say it has killed me any more birds that anything from Remington Super Steel BB and Federal Steel BB.....which I just bought for $10.49 a box....

[spurcrazy]

Originally Posted by Jeremy

Anybody swear by it? I usually swear by everything that comes out of my gun but thats just because i cant hit anything. Just curious if its living up to the hype now that its been out for a couple years and if anyone has seen a noticied improvement in kill ratios with it vs. anything else? None the less i picked up 6 boxes of it today for $15 a box so we will see what happens.

It's a great, over priced, swat load. Don't waste your time or money. I shot 4 boxes last year. A majority of the bb's in the shell are regular steel. The others, which make it unique, are worthless for penetration. They drag ALOT of feathers. It's absolutely devastating on head hits, but completely unnecessary due to the fact that if you run regular steel through their head you will get the same results.........a dead duck/goose.

Save you money, buy the super fast steel on the market. It costs less and will give you better penetration on less than ideal body hits.

[spurcrazy]

Originally Posted by baltz526

normally it is not the shell but the shooter that kills the bird. for decoying birds the cheapest steel shot you can find is perfect, why wast the money for exspensive shells

+1,

[HonkerKnocker]

Like said above its not the load that makes the shot its the shooter save your coin at 25.50 a box thats an expensive round...just my two cents

[xstreme357]

buy a case. i stopped mallards in full swing at 50 yards last year all day long. great stuff. anyone who says you cant shoot long shots with that stuff is entitled to their own opinion. the flite stopper loads in those shells do work, just as the name implies. try a box. worth the money.

[Snubber]

Interesting results and observations on the Federal Blackcloud product. Again, these are all opinions and observations based upon "personal experiences" or "what I have read" scenarios. There was alot, I mean alot of development on the product, both in the lab and in the field use before product launch.

FACTS:
Not all shooters shoot the same, or we would all be Olympians!
Not all shells perform the same or pattern the same.
Not all shotguns ( brand included ) point the same. Point of aim, point of impact.
Not all shooters pattern their shotguns to determine which shot size performs best for "their" gun, not what someone recommends.
Not all of us are shooting "decoying birds" all the time.

As Baltz states "that is shotgunning" where you run into and encounter many differerent situations on a hunt. Additionally, it is why you see sporting clays shooters changing out choke tubes for the given situation and shooting station coming up. If you have the time, money, space and are able roll your own loads, there are some advantages and personal rewards associated in doing so.

I am personally finding far fewer needs for the "swatter loads". Dog is spending less time running down cripples and fewer trips with the big boat running down the "dead, just doesn't know it" birds. My hunting days are fewer and fewer each season, while safety, fun and goods times are the goal, it also makes sense to weight the "time vs. money" equation.

BUT........ With all the duck calls sold, Spinner decoys sold, more realistic decoys sold, better boats, better camo, etc., etc., going the cheap route on the shells is O.K. at times, but as Nicholson said above ---
with your buddies and "looking like you wacked them with a full load"........ PRICELESS.

[duck_crazy101]

i hate it every time i shoot a bird with it it either really messes them up or it wounds them

[Snubber]

Originally Posted by duck_crazy101

i hate it every time i shoot a bird with it it either really messes them up or it wounds them

Try not to say "every time" or "never" or "always"......... you will have far fewer arguments, both with employer or future wife.?

Have you patterned? What choke are you using? On decoying birds are you taking the closest bird first? What shot size are you using?

I believe you are a newcomer to the sport of waterfowling?? Just trying to be of help, not combative.

[Chesapeake]

Alex seems to like the stuff and I've seen him wack the birds with it plenty, but thats pretty common for Alex.

For me its about $10 more a box than I'm willing to spend.

The pellets look like the Kent Matrix pellets.

[jnicholson]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake

Alex seems to like the stuff and I've seen him wack the birds with it plenty, but thats pretty common for Alex.

For me its about $10 more a box than I'm willing to spend.

The pellets look like the Kent Matrix pellets.

Alex was one of the guys that decided to start using it after I let him try some on divers. Yes Alex is a good shot but he could also tell the Black Cloud was knocking down divers better than the regular loads he had.

BTW, I've only been using #2's and 50 yard shots are not an option. If the duck isn't in the 20 - 35 yard zone you probably won't hit him. Personally I don't usually shoot that far unless it's my 2nd or third shot on a fleeing duck. 20 yards to 35 yards with #2's is the effective zone and inside 20 and outside 35 is far worse than I think any brand I've used, however, 20 - 35 is far better than any other brand I've used other than Heavy shot.

if extreme 357 is hitting ducks all day long at 50 yards ....he has something different than we have. There's no way with 1 1/4 oz #2's.


John

[jnicholson]

Originally Posted by duck_crazy101

i hate it every time i shoot a bird with it it either really messes them up or it wounds them

Sorry, I'm just not seeing this with #2's

[BrotherWolf]

Originally Posted by xstreme357

buy a case. i stopped mallards in full swing at 50 yards last year all day long. great stuff. anyone who says you cant shoot long shots with that stuff is entitled to their own opinion. the flite stopper loads in those shells do work, just as the name implies. try a box. worth the money.

Ditto
you need 50 yards just to get them to spread out the pattern. They shoot a really tight pattern even with my imp choke on my SX2...they just chewed up the geese last year at under 30 yards

[jnicholson]

Originally Posted by xstreme357

buy a case. i stopped mallards in full swing at 50 yards last year all day long. great stuff. anyone who says you cant shoot long shots with that stuff is entitled to their own opinion. the flite stopper loads in those shells do work, just as the name implies. try a box. worth the money.

Are you using bb's or T's? There's no way I can see consistant hits with #2's. I shot over 2 cases last year and did the tests on paper. What am I missing here?

Please elaborate I'm curious, Thanks.

John

[SImudBogger]

Originally Posted by jnicholson

Are you using bb's or T's? There's no way I can see consistant hits with #2's. I shot over 2 cases last year and did the tests on paper. What am I missing here?

Please elaborate I'm curious, Thanks.

John

How many guns did you shoot it out of? what chokes were you using? His gun probably shoots different than yours.

[thefishslayer]

ive been using the using the same two boxes of shells for the last two years. i dont find the birds as well as you do

[xstreme357]

Originally Posted by jnicholson

Sorry, I'm just not seeing this with #2's

it must just be luck? 20 yard shots your loads don't do much. of course it's going to tear up your ducks. 2's, or 3's both are going to do work. pattern your gun at 45 yards and watch what it does. it's pretty cool.

we did well this weekend with a couple nice 40 yard shots down in woodland. birds dropped dead, no head up's... no swimmer's... no cripples.

it's just kinda like silly putty, it just works!

brother, you got nailed it on the head my friend. that's the whole point behind the flitecontrol wad. on point, faster.

[5 Salt]

Originally Posted by duck_crazy101

i hate it every time i shoot a bird with it it either really messes them up or it wounds them

Talked with local Federal Rep about this issue

Go one size lighter on your pellet size to resolve this problem with the Black Cloud.

[spurcrazy]

Originally Posted by jnicholson

Sorry, I'm just not seeing this with #2's

I do, think about a shooter that has no ability or knowledge of leading longer shots. Therefore he's center punching them at close range, and scraping tale feathers and barely breaking wings at longer ranges.

Makes sense to me

[xstreme357]

Originally Posted by jnicholson

BTW, I've only been using #2's and 50 yard shots are not an option. If the duck isn't in the 20 - 35 yard zone you probably won't hit him. Personally I don't usually shoot that far unless it's my 2nd or third shot on a fleeing duck. 20 yards to 35 yards with #2's is the effective zone and inside 20 and outside 35 is far worse than I think any brand I've used, however, 20 - 35 is far better than any other brand I've used other than Heavy shot.

if extreme 357 is hitting ducks all day long at 50 yards ....he has something different than we have. There's no way with 1 1/4 oz #2's.


John

not to try and get off topic here, but whose to say that a 50 yard shot is not an option? because you feel that the effective kill range is 20-30 yards is your opinion. have you shot more than twice at a bird out side of your comfort range, and is it possible that it's all it is... a comfort zone? its like fishing... if your not confident in the bait your fishing, your not going to catch chit. im not calling you out or anything... but to say that a 50 yard shot is impossible is incorrect.

now go ahead and make it rain now i don't mind.

shoot straight.
chris

[baltz526]

the yardage limit is about pellet speed and pellet size combined with pattern density. a #2 or #3 steel pellet runs out of speed before 50yds when launched at 1450fps or less even if the pattern is still good. shoot a BBB then your pellet will still be effective, but your pattern limits may not be. it is just plain physics. the solution the the makers of ammo and guns have come up with is faster/larger/higher pellet count shells, shot through guns with larger inside barrel diameters with longer chokes. with thicker better designed wads and perfectly round steel pellets or specially shaped steel pellets. all these things are good for us, if used in the proper combinations at reasonable ranges. a 50yd shot on a mallard with my 10ga, loaded with 1 3/8 oz of #1 steel shot launched at 1600fps that puts 90% of pellets in a 30" circle at 40yds is very effective. a 1 1/4 oz load of #2 or #3 steel pellets launched at 1450fps or less is a less than perfect load for any shot over 45yds, just plain physics. shoot them if you got them, but learn effective ranges. i sit at summer lake in the evening watching most guys shoot their slow steel shells at birds beyond the effective range of the combo they use. waiting for my shots. i hear their pellets smacking these birds that they are shooting at, with little effect. i estimate the ranges of their shots 45yds to 55yds sometimes farther. then i'll go pick up their spent shells 1 1/8 at 1550, 1 1/4 at 1450, #2 BB is the most common. these shells are not effective at all beyond 55yds at 45yds they are if the shooter is effective. i go look at the birds these guys knock down, because i take my dog over there to find them for them. the dead ones have head hits, most are alive with broken wings. when i hit these same birds with my combo most are dead and come down like rocks, but i try to pick my shots. knowing my combos limits is what is effective, not blasting at anything that might be in range. black cloud is in my opinion should work great, it is plain physics. but is not a close range wad that is in the shell

[jnicholson]

Originally Posted by SImudBogger

How many guns did you shoot it out of? what chokes were you using? His gun probably shoots different than yours.

Personally I shot it out of Remington 870 and Winchester Super X 3.
I used improved chokes in both. I don't think changing chokes is going to change the pattern on this load very much seeing how the wad travels with the pellets over such a long distance. If someone actually paper tested choke differences, I would like to hear how it went. I could try it but I'm very happy with the current results. I'm going to call that 18 yard to 35 yard duck zone "the Black Cloud slot of death."

John and Bucky

[Teton]

All I can write is that my Beretta AL390 loves them, and the ducks I shoot at do not.

I have not patterned my gun with them, but until last season, I shot Remington Sportsman 3" #2 steel (with a Fasteel box mixed in here and there), and had excellent results.

When I got a hold of a case of Black Cloud, even though many ducks were dying, the difference was noticeable. An average shot on decoying ducks for me is 25-35 yards. I shoot a tight choke on waterfowl (Improved Modified), and with the old steel stuff, I had plenty of crumples.

With the Cloud, it seemed like the birds were shocked dead when hit. I either missed cleanly, or they just died in midair (most of the time).

I like it, but its more per box than I'm willing to spend retail as much ammo as I go through.

[SImudBogger]

i bought a few boxes awhile back and finally got to use them the other day. I killed 3 birds with it, 1 short range shot, 1 meduim and 1 long. the short and medium were dead before they hit the water, the long (40 yards) was head up when he hit the water, 1 swat and it slowed him down enough for the dog to get him without any problems. All the birds had massive wound channels, much bigger than regular steel. With that said, i could have shot those birds with faststeel and they would have been just as dead without having so much meat tore up.

I'm going to save what i have left for later in the season when the birds are a little bigger and have more fat and feathers.

my opinion is that it is a high quality load that does what it advertises, but it's not worth $25 a box when you can get nearly the same performance for $10-$13.

[jnicholson]

Good post, interesting...

All the birds had massive wound channels, much bigger than regular steel

I'm not seeing that or maybe my eyes just aren't that good anymore.
I totally expected that but last year when I started using it I couldn't tell which wound was caused by a round pellet and which was a cutter by the holes. I'd dig into the bird and try to find out. BTW it's pretty darn hard to find the pellets if you've never tried. I've only used #2's and I wonder if it is more obvious on BB's. I need to get both BB's and #4's soon.

Also remember 60 % of the pellet load is round and 40 % is cutters.

John and Bucky

[SImudBogger]

i usually shoot #3's but the blackcloud was #2, that might be why.
the only bird i found any shot in was the one i shot at close range, 20yds. there were both pellets in it. the cutters are bigger than the round ones

[Tvfowlhunter]

I really like shooting Kent faststeel on ducks and geese over the decoys, and time to time I will use Hevi Shot when the times are needed.

[5 Salt]

Good Discussion.

Well thought replies and information

[shane&drake]

What about the black cloud long range choke tube, has anyone used it?

[stlhdr1]

I've yet to spend over $13.99 on a box of shells, I really don't see any reason. I personally believe anything inside 35 yards is dead to rights with Kent Fasteel or Winchester Experts, I've consistently found that #1's and BB's are the deadliest on ducks. #2's do a good job but again, #1's and BB's flat pound them...

I just picked up a new SX3 this year and maybe it's a confidence thing but I haven't even shot a full box of shells through the gun yet and it's whacked 11 birds in 2 hunts.... I haven't sent a cripple flying with it yet, but I haven't shot past 45 yards either...... Last year I was sending a lot of cripples off with my Benelli Nova in the same range. Point being that if the gun fits right, you'll stone em'........

I'm getting ticked though, I'm wanting a cripple on a open pond so my new lab can get a taste of chasing a duck on water.....

Keith

[SImudBogger]

only reason i am shooting the black cloud is becasue i picked up two boxes for $15 each. I think it would be an awesome goose load with BB.

[Snubber]

Originally Posted by SImudBogger

i bought a few boxes awhile back and finally got to use them the other day. I killed 3 birds with it, 1 short range shot, 1 meduim and 1 long. the short and medium were dead before they hit the water, the long (40 yards) was head up when he hit the water, 1 swat and it slowed him down enough for the dog to get him without any problems. All the birds had massive wound channels, much bigger than regular steel. With that said, i could have shot those birds with faststeel and they would have been just as dead without having so much meat tore up.

I'm going to save what i have left for later in the season when the birds are a little bigger and have more fat and feathers.

my opinion is that it is a high quality load that does what it advertises, but it's not worth $25 a box when you can get nearly the same performance for $10-$13.

What choke were you shooting? Your observation is exactly correct on those close birds and I would suspect you are shooting a tighter choke than recommended?
What you observed with BC vs others you have shot in similar situations, is yes, "more damage" resultant of much higher pattern density with same size shot. Only way you could improve would be to shoot an even smaller pellet.
What BC allows you to do as well, is not shoot that closest bird first and start at the back and work your way to those leading ducks. Also, on the close birds, one does need to be mindful of how close they truly are and take your time making the most of each shot.
I have tested this product alot, over 4 seasons ( only been out for 3) and like anything, there is a learning curve.
This season, 3 hunts, 19 birds for 26 shots. Sorry, as a former baseball player, was always judged by batting average and pitching - strike to ball ratio. I continue to monitor this by tracking shots vs. downed birds.
This is a 25 round "premium steel product" and designed as an alternative to the Tungsten alloy versions ( 10 round boxes ) out on the market at much higher retails.
In the high end steel market, NOTHING peforms better.

[The Bloodletter]

Originally Posted by jnicholson

Right and Wrong. You're description of how it works is correct but I'd like to point out some field observations and actual use on my part. I am not a pass shooter and this is not a pass shooter load! In fact it is a lousy load if you are shooting out over 35 yards for pass shooting.

The cutter pellets are
extremely irratic and out past that distance the group is lousy. You can test it your self by setting up 4' cardboard sections every 5 feet out to 45 yards like I have and see what happens. Do the work, field
test it on paper.

18 yards to 30 is ideal and the cutters put the ducks into a nervous system meltdown. The cutters also do not tear up the bird.

at about 15 yards the wad starts slowing down due to the tail fins and the 60/40 mix of round pellets
and cutter pellets starts to open up. We shot several cases last year into birds last year and bought several more.

The cutters follow the round pellets out to about 20 to 25 yards and then spin out irratically.

The terrific advantage comes with hunting with it. You can almost eliminate that percentage of ducks that continue to fly and then dump way out in the lake or river. This stuff knocks them down now. Four of my hunting buddies are using them now after watching what it did to ducks hunting with me last year. I am not a great shot but when big duck start dumping in front of you and end up completely motionless in the water, it makes it look like you whallupped them with the full load almost every time.

It's the best affordable load I know of for DECOYING ducks. Heavy shot is not an affordable for me on ducks because I hunt alot.

I will say that it is a dirty load. I get more dust and crud in my eyes from using this stuff than anything I've ever used


John and Bucky

I would agree. Went out for my first trip of the year Friday and decided I would try Black Cloud to see what all the hyp was about. We were hunting over tidal water and could not get as close to the dekes as we would have liked due to lack of cover. Granted it was the first trip of the year and I was shooting a new gun (Super Black Eagle II) but there were birds that I know I hit well that managed to cripple off pretty far. I did notice after I got used to shooting the new gun that I couldn't seem to reach birds at ranges I normally have sucess at. Again, I have not used the loads more than once but for the price I'm certainly sceptical of wether or not it's worth it. Also some of the birds that I we did kill were pretty mangled. The FS pellets seem to really tear the birds up. So I guess if you have birds that decoy well and you can get them in close, its pretty lethal stuff but if you care about the condition of the meat, I would not suggest this stuff. Also as stated above it does not seem to perform well at longer ranges.

[SImudBogger]

Originally Posted by Snubber

What choke were you shooting? Your observation is exactly correct on those close birds and I would suspect you are shooting a tighter choke than recommended?
What you observed with BC vs others you have shot in similar situations, is yes, "more damage" resultant of much higher pattern density with same size shot. Only way you could improve would be to shoot an even smaller pellet.
What BC allows you to do as well, is not shoot that closest bird first and start at the back and work your way to those leading ducks. Also, on the close birds, one does need to be mindful of how close they truly are and take your time making the most of each shot.
I have tested this product alot, over 4 seasons ( only been out for 3) and like anything, there is a learning curve.
This season, 3 hunts, 19 birds for 26 shots. Sorry, as a former baseball player, was always judged by batting average and pitching - strike to ball ratio. I continue to monitor this by tracking shots vs. downed birds.
This is a 25 round "premium steel product" and designed as an alternative to the Tungsten alloy versions ( 10 round boxes ) out on the market at much higher retails.
In the high end steel market, NOTHING peforms better.

i was shooting a modified choke in a remington 11-87. I think it would be great in #3 or #4 on decoying birds.

[jnicholson]

Today's shots. 2 shots and 2 Cacks, both setting down in the decoys at 25 to 30 yards. Both keeled over and were dead by the time Bucky fetched them up.
I found only one round pellet in the #1 bird I hit. Both birds took head and neck shots.

[HonkerKnocker]

I dont know man looks kinda looks like a a breast shot on that number 2 bird nice cart by the way is that home made it looks slick!!!....Well as far as the black cloud discussion goes....shot at 35 yards first bird and 45 yards on the second with kent faststeel #2 3 inch shells...it cost me a whopping 12 bucks a box and these birds were down and disabled....First one tagged in as a western and second as a vancouver....its not the size or type of shot but the shooter that brings down the bird

[jnicholson]

Nice shooting HonkerKnocker and really nice birds. The Black Cloud #2 might not worked on those big birds. Especially the 45 yard bird. The pattern really opens up over over 35 yards.

nice cart by the way is that home made it looks slick!!!.

DSDC .... Dave Smith Deluxe Cart I gave Brad the measurements of what would roll into the back of my truck and fit exactly under the canopy ... guess what, it came out perfect the first time. You can see it behind Bucky here.

[xstreme357]

didn't we just have this discussion, lol? same discussion... different results. cute pics tho!

[jnicholson]

Originally Posted by xstreme357

didn't we just have this discussion, lol? same discussion... different results. cute pics tho!

What do you mean? Would you elaborate?

[CombinationLicense]

jnicholson, since you seem to have a lot of experience with the load I'm hoping that you can help with a question. Do you happen to Rep them? A friend of mine said that BC ammo isn't supposed to be used in ported shotguns. I just checked the BC website and it just says not to use aftermarket "wad stripper" or ported chokes. Any thoughts?

"CL"

[jnicholson]

Originally Posted by CombinationLicense

jnicholson, since you seem to have a lot of experience with the load I'm hoping that you can help with a question. Do you happen to Rep them? A friend of mine said that BC ammo isn't supposed to be used in ported shotguns. I just checked the BC website and it just says not to use aftermarket "wad stripper" or ported chokes. Any thoughts?

"CL"

No I'm not a rep I just love the science behind this and really appreciate not seeing so many ducks fly off and then drop 100 yards away. I do have to hunt differently with the #2 BC though. I need to shoot at decoying or close birds only because
the chance of me hitting something out far is pretty slim with the way the cutters open up. I'm not that great of a long shot anyway and several years ago I realized the beauty and appreciation of decoying birds. It's probably a phase all avid bird hunters get to eventually. There's also something to consistantly having big birds (Mallards) fall down and just kick their feet a little. You're buddies will hate you for it.

IMO, one of the reasons you have heard not to use aftermarket wad strippers is because it defeats the science of what their flight control is doing. It stays intact and carries the pellets for some distance before the trim tabs slow it down and the load comes out of the wad. When you pick it up in the field it looks like a tall shot glass with fins. The wad and pellets fly out as one for a long distance, the wad slows down because of the fins, the front pellets are round and the cutter pellets follow the round front pellets untill the pattern gets to a point the cutters really spin out.
The shape of the front round pellets is really no
different than anybody elses round pellets. The 40 % cutters follow closely (venturi) for a while
and then spin out irradically.
So basically there is a zone (hopefully where your duck is) that there is an amazing amount of pellets of which
many of which are those cutters which I think cause a nervous breakdown of the bird like a bullet opening up on a big game animal. At the very least on any shot you have
60% round pellets doing the same thing other loads do. Can you kill birds far out with it? .... Sure and some of the guys seem to be doing well with that but the science behind it suggest you have a smaller chance of getting a fatal hit because only 60% of the load is round pellets (40% cutters are flying irratically)

I'm think I'm going to do another paper test and take pictures to help show what I'm talking about.

The other real learning curve with these things comes with trying to hit something close. If the bird is less than about 15 yards out you're going to have one heck of a time hitting it. Basically you might have well be shooting slugs at that distance. I learned the hard way on that and Paul had a great morning laughing at me shoot and miss in your face divers before I figured out what was going on.

You know this BC is the dirtiest stuff I've ever shot though. There is more dust in my eyes and crud from shooting a few rounds. I really don't like that.

As for the price, I'm one of those I'll pay a little more for something that works better but I can't take the pain of something like Heavy Shot.

For what it's worth, if it was all the
same price .... I would use Heavy shot exclusively ... but it's not all the same price and this time of year you buy what's on sale anyway.

John

[CombinationLicense]

Thanks John, I understand how the BC works pretty well. The BC web page says not to use ported chokes or stripper chokes for exactly that reason. My concern was specific to ported shotguns though. The reason being that I just passed down my ported Mossberg 500 12 ga to one of my step sons. He had pretty much outgrown his youth 20 ga so I let him start using the 12 and his success ratio improved a lot. It uses the regular Mossberg choke (non-ported/non-stripper) but has porting in the barrel before the choke area. I just didn't want to load him up with BC if it was going to be unsafe or detrimental to the firearm or pattern.

"CL"

[xstreme357]

I think it's great that people with a wealth of knowledge share! that's what this board is all about, peoples opinions and help!!

great work guys! thank you all for your input.

[SImudBogger]

Originally Posted by jnicholson

You know this BC is the dirtiest stuff I've ever shot though. There is more dust in my eyes and crud from shooting a few rounds. I really don't like that.

John

I'll second that. Only fired 6 rounds of BC last time out, but when i tore apart my shotgun it looked like i had been out trap shooting all day.

[jnicholson]

Originally Posted by xstreme357

I think it's great that people with a wealth of knowledge share! that's what this board is all about, peoples opinions and help!!

great work guys! thank you all for your input.

Ditto brother!

[billc_sbio]

Reading about these, and the technology they're using here, these sound somewhat like some of the same technology Remington employed in their "Duplex" Steel Shot loads in the late 1980s.

The special wads and the "cutter" pellets weren't there, but they did use that dual pellet size concept of some number (like 35/65) of large pellets to small.

They had 2 variations on this, BB x 2s and 2s x 4s.

The same idea was employed that you see in the Blackclouds in which they had an amount of the Larger shot in front and a larger amount of smaller shot (to get the pellet count up) behind.

The larger shot, with its higher sectional density, broke the wind for the smaller pellets which "Drafted" closely behind.

I'm pretty sure that Remington checked these concepts out pretty closely before they brought the product to market.

However while I'm sure they were (at least a little more) effective, they were packaged in 10-pak boxes, like the premium Tungsten based shotshells are today, and of course they cost considerably more.

I think it was their cost rather than their effectiveness that sank them.

Hunters just didn't want to shell out the extra $$$ for something that (sometimes) "worked" more effectively.

Therein lies the crux. That "effectiveness" is a very subjective thing and often difficult to accurately access.

When you can use high speed Steel #2s or #3s (for Ducks) and harvest and recover MOST of your birds, it takes some real convincing to part with a few more $$$ per box to buy something else.

YOU WANT TO SEE SOMETHING REALLY EFFECTIVE?

Buy yourself a couple of boxes of Hevi-Steel #4s

Better yet, buy yourself a few boxes of Remington Wingmaster HD #4s

Oh, and did I forget to mention that, unfortunately, most of you will never get to experience shooting Ducks with 1-3/8 oz of Hi-Antimony Lead #5s at 1,350 fps or Geese with 1-5/8 oz of buffered hard Copper-Plated Lead #2s in a 3" shell!

[baltz526]

I remember the good lead loads. 2 oz of #2's in the 10ga, 1 1/4 oz of #4 in the 20 ga. but the reality is 90% of the lead shot, i shot was 1 oz of #6 in the 20 ga, then 1 1/4 oz of #6 in the 12 ga. cheap sale shells, about as effective as todays 1 1/8 oz 1550 #2 steel shot

[billc_sbio]

Originally Posted by baltz526

I remember the good lead loads. 2 oz of #2's in the 10ga, 1 1/4 oz of #4 in the 20 ga. but the reality is 90% of the lead shot, i shot was 1 oz of #6 in the 20 ga, then 1 1/4 oz of #6 in the 12 ga. cheap sale shells, about as effective as todays 1 1/8 oz 1550 #2 steel shot

Yeah, so you're right!

But the "good ones" (like Winchester Super-X Double XX), the ones that cost DOUBLE the Promo load ones "Duck Loads" & "Game Loads",

OR that you could load yourself, using the "good stuff" (shotcups, plastic buffer, and Hi-Antimony Shot) were GREAT!

[spurcrazy]

Originally Posted by xstreme357

didn't we just have this discussion, lol? same discussion... different results. cute pics tho!

[Jeremy]

[Fish-a-Holic]

Combolicense,

The reason for not shooting ported chokes is so the wad isn't kicked in different direction as it exits the barrel. This was the whole reasone behind stripper chokes like Pattern Master from the beginning. Many believed the wads would sometimes get cocked off of center when leaving the barrel so they would use the stripper tubes to pull the wad away so the pattern stayed concentric. With the Black Cloud wad it holds the entire shot column for 10 to 15 yards once it has left the barrel, so if you shot it through a ported choke and got it cocked off center it wouldn't be very accurate. With a ported barrel the wad has plenty of time to stabilize before it passed out of the choke so you won't have any issues. With that said, make sure and use a light choke with this load. It isn't designed to shoot through full steel type chokes. In my experience the cylinder/skeet or improved chokes are the right direction.

As for distance....John has this right for the most part. I have had some luck at longer distances with this load, but it begins to act like regular steel because the cutters (Flight Stopper Steel- for the correct name) have zinged themselves right out of the pattern. Yes you've probably lost 40% of the pellets in your pattern, but with standard steel which begins losing pellets from the pattern much closer because the wad opens immediately cuts down on pattern density for regular steel as well. The acid test for any pattern is the same gun, same choke, same yardage with the different loads.

Now for where I totally think Mr. Nicholson has nailed it... At the yardages he describes the load is in it's apex of performance. It has the highest density patterns you'll probably shoot as long as you aren't using some funky choke. The Flight Stopper Steel is there to accomplish a quick kill and the standard steel is present to give an incredibly dense pattern.

I also read above the steel slows down faster so yardage is hurt. This is absolutely true and simple physics say once the load has slowed down enough a pellet doesn't have the speed to penetrate the bird. Where Black Cloud is different in this regard is the effect you get from the wad carrying the pellets for an extra 10 to 15 yards. This allows the entire column to travel essentially as a slug. This means the pellets don't slow down at the same yardage because they leave the wad 15 yards outside the barrel traveling faster than an equivalent sized pellet which left the wad at the muzzle. Basically you gain a few extra lethal yards at outside range where the pellets WILL still penetrate.

Hope this helps....