Police//DMV insurance information

Hell-B · 10-09-2008, 05:38 PM

A couple times a week, I am on the road anywhere from 4:30/5:30 AM, heading home from work. It's less than 4 miles.
This morning, as I was approaching a stop sign, a car turned from my right and proceeded ahead in the direction I was going. By the time I stopped and was going again, he was a good 100 yards ahead of me. I made it about fifty yards and saw lights turning behind me very quickly. In a second, it was right on my bumper and I could see that it was a police car. Now I had not seen him anywhere to the right when I stopped and there is no place to "hide" in the direction that he came from.
I just keep going at my normal 25 mph (with him on my bumper) for a quarter mile until I turn right again. He didn't follow, but sped ahead. I figured he was trying to catch up with the car that had disappeared ahead of me.
So a go another couple hundred yards then turn onto a street that takes me home. It's about 5 blocks and straight. (At the end of it, I turn onto my dead end street.) So I'm about 1/2 block from turning and I see lights turning onto the straight way back.
I will guarantee that he was going 70-80 mph. Just as I was turning onto my dead end, he lite me up. I was going so slow making the turn that it only took a couple feet to stop. He turned his spotlight on and came up to the p/u.
He says "DMV reports that you have no insurance" I pulled out my card and as I hand it to him, he says ok, sorry, DMV makes mistakes all the time. It never even got to his hand.

Now, I finally am getting to my point(s).
I think that he was going after the other car but lost it.
I had done nothing wrong except I drive a 25 year old vehicle to work.
I believe that when he didn't smell alcohol, he didn't want me.
HE WAS FISHING...LOOKING FOR A DUII.
HE WAS DRIVING WAY TOO FAST W/O FLASHERS BOTH TIMES HE APPROACHED!! The whole area is 25 mph.

Now the question is...does DMV give insurance information to the police?

Why do we need to carry cards if they know everything?

Comments.....

Do you feel this was a good stop?

I was going to contact the chief today but thought I'd get some other thoughts.

No Fences · 10-09-2008, 05:43 PM

Sounds fishy to me?

XD40Ranger · 10-09-2008, 05:49 PM

Your insurance information comes up on the Law enforcement data system (LEDS), but from my experience (Reserve Police Officer) it's not always current, so that's why you carry proof of insurance. That's all I am going to say about that.

dre5063 · 10-09-2008, 05:50 PM

OK, let me try some of these.

First of all, in a way insurance information is passed to police. The computers in the cars (MDC's) have the ability to run license plates. In the return field from DMV records it shows insurance information. The problem....... It shows the information you provided the last time you registered your vehicle. If you have renewed the policy or have changed carriers, the information is NOT passed to DMV. Relying on that for a traffic stop is poor police work. Very poor. Once he saw a valid card in your hand for insurance, his probable cause is gone and he can look no further without another viable infraction.

How he could be travelling at those speeds you report and typing on a MDC is beyond me. Definitely not a safe move.

Based solely on your description it sounds to me like you are correct. He didn't catch the one guy because he did not pass you to go after him. You were the next best thing.

If he truly was looking for DUII's, wasn't he in fact doing his job? Can't catch fish if you don't go fishing.

Not to slam you or flame you on the board....If it was me driving the police car and you did not pull over when I signalled (statute says IMMEDIATELY) we would be talking about that and not the stale information in your DMV return.

If you are really upset over his actions, contact his supervisor. At least chat with him. Maybe not a formal complaint but maybe just a conversation. As a supervisor I always appreciated "just knowing".

SalmonSeason · 10-09-2008, 05:51 PM

Yes DMV has your insurance information attached to the vehicle's registration...he was doing his job, trying to make sure uninsured vehicle's are not on the road

and YES DMV does make mistakes

and YES he did not need it to get to his hand as he was confident in your words that it's good to go...

be thankful that he's patrolling your neighborhood at those hours as most thieves are out those times too

Hell-B · 10-09-2008, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dre5063

OK, let me try some of these.

First of all, in a way insurance information is passed to police. The computers in the cars (MDC's) have the ability to run license plates. In the return field from DMV records it shows insurance information. The problem....... It shows the information you provided the last time you registered your vehicle. If you have renewed the policy or have changed carriers, the information is NOT passed to DMV. Relying on that for a traffic stop is poor police work. Very poor. Once he saw a valid card in your hand for insurance, his probable cause is gone and he can look no further without another viable infraction.

How he could be travelling at those speeds you report and typing on a MDC is beyond me. Definitely not a safe move.

Based solely on your description it sounds to me like you are correct. He didn't catch the one guy because he did not pass you to go after him. You were the next best thing.

If he truly was looking for DUII's, wasn't he in fact doing his job? Can't catch fish if you don't go fishing.

Not to slam you or flame you on the board....If it was me driving the police car and you did not pull over when I signalled (statute says IMMEDIATELY) we would be talking about that and not the stale information in your DMV return.

If you are really upset over his actions, contact his supervisor. At least chat with him. Maybe not a formal complaint but maybe just a conversation. As a supervisor I always appreciated "just knowing".

First time he caught up with me, he had to follow me at 25 mph until I turned.
Where did I say that I didn't pull over? I said that I was turning (it's downhill) and going so slow that I stopped within a few few of his lights coming on. Also because I was expecting it, my stopping was immediate.
Finally,no, I don't want him fishing. I want probable cause which there was none.

dre5063 · 10-09-2008, 06:05 PM

My bad, cop habit. You said "I saw his light behind me" and that meant the pretty blue light to me.

If this is a West Linn officer, chat with Terry Timeus (last I knew he was still the chief). He's a fisherman and a North River owner.

Hell-B · 10-09-2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dre5063

My bad, cop habit. You said "I saw his light behind me" and that meant the pretty blue light to me.

If this is a West Linn officer, chat with Terry Timeus (last I knew he was still the chief). He's a fisherman and a North River owner.

It's ok. I talk better than I type.
It just amazes me what I see go on by the guys in the luxury cars and then which cars I see pulled over.
I drive an old gas efficient p/u to work and in my mind that makes it a target. I do have higher priced vehicles.
That being said, this is the first time that I've been stopped in at least 15 years so maybe I'm over-reacting.
That's why I threw it out here first.

Gregotis98 · 10-09-2008, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dre5063

If he truly was looking for DUII's, wasn't he in fact doing his job? Can't catch fish if you don't go fishing.

I guess that would be a pretty productive way of catching bad guys, pull everyone over on false pretenses and then see if they're drunk.

I'd be tempted if I were you to ask a random officer sometime to run your tag and see if he/she comes up with the same info. I'd be nice to know if this is something you need to take care of so you don't get caught in someone's fishing trip by accident.

SalmonSeason · 10-09-2008, 07:28 PM

"Finally,no, I don't want him fishing. I want probable cause which there was none.[/quote]

Having expired information on your registration is Probable Cause to stop and inquire

As an example: You will pay for your tags and may forget to place them on your license plates...DMV will not update the records for a few days and when a deputy/officer runs a license plate registration (Looking for stolen vehicles,suspended and/or wanted drivers, etc) and sees expired registration, expired or terminated insurance information etc..that's called probable cause to stop

And when you add up the time of day and yes older vehicles do tend to have a higher percentage of thieves in them...then yes you're probably going to get stopped...but as you said; you have not been stopped in 15 years...you're doing good then

I still say my hats off to the guy/gal who is patrolling your neighborhood looking for bad guys rather than sitting on the freeway

Hell-B · 10-09-2008, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SalmonSeason

"Finally,no, I don't want him fishing. I want probable cause which there was none.

Having expired information on your registration is Probable Cause to stop and inquire

As an example: You will pay for your tags and may forget to place them on your license plates...DMV will not update the records for a few days and when a deputy/officer runs a license plate registration (Looking for stolen vehicles,suspended and/or wanted drivers, etc) and sees expired registration, expired or terminated insurance information etc..that's called probable cause to stop

And when you add up the time of day and yes older vehicles do tend to have a higher percentage of thieves in them...then yes you're probably going to get stopped...but as you said; you have not been stopped in 15 years...you're doing good then

I still say my hats off to the guy/gal who is patrolling your neighborhood looking for bad guys rather than sitting on the freeway[/quote]

In 43 years of driving, I have never been w/o insurance.
I have had this vehicle for about 20 years.
It's old but not beat up.
I make sure all lights are working.
I just put a new exhaust on it.
I was not weaving.
I stopped at the stop sign.
I drove exactly at the posted speed. Maybe this was the giveaway since everyone else drives 1o+ over.
I signaled my intentions.
I believe that the police car did come off the freeway looking for the other car. I always drive the old road on the way home.

One of my other points was time of day. Because I work these hours why should be suspect.
When the roads are crowded, all sorts of things are permitted so the traffic isn't slowed.

It's a case of double standards.

No Bail · 10-09-2008, 07:46 PM

Mere Conversation;
Reasonable Suspicion;
Probable Cause;
Preponderance of evidence;
Clear and convincing;
Beyond a reasonable doubt;
Too darned confusing?
"Sentence first, verdict later" - Queen in Alice and Wonderland, simple if unjust.

BarroomHero · 10-10-2008, 12:15 AM

The officer had probable cause to stop you, when you went for your current insurance information, that was enough for him, and he cut you loose. It's only speculation that he was fishing for a deuce, and if he was you're ok anyways because you were sober, and he came to that conclusin. Most people would be happy to have officers trying to keep drunks off the streets, but you don't even know thats what his intentions were. You haven't been stopped in fifteen years so I don't think police are unfairly profiling your vehicle. If he was rude, unprofessional, or you feel that you were wronged then contact his supervisor and tell them what happened and they will follow up.

DF · 10-10-2008, 12:29 AM

IYes there was PC. But you wont know what the PC is because you might not think there is any on your vehicle, but if you break out the ORS and read it, and walk around your car, you will find one.

Be happy he was patrolling your streets. If you didn't get a ticket, then why be irritated? It took maybe 5 to 10 mins out of your day. He made sure you wern't drunk, suspended, had warrants, out prowling cars, ect.

Most all good arrests in the history of law enforcement are made from a simple traffic stop.

You know you were doing nothing wrong. And you didn't get a ticket, sounds like a pretty good stop to me

If somone ever breaks into your house, your car, or breaks into your home while your there. It very well may be that Officer that responds and he will do his job then, too.

And if he is like most, he probably works that area every night. Now he knows your car, knows you have insurance and are just coming home from work. Bet you get a wave instead of the lights next time

Hell-B · 10-10-2008, 01:15 AM

The speed that he closed on me was absolutely out of line. I realized that there wasn't children in the street, but there is often animals as I come home.
What if he would have lost control and went into a house.
I was going to a dead end, not an open area.

This is the end of my comments.
I asked for comments and now know that most of you really appreciate being pulled over.
So I hope you get your wishes.

SalmonSeason · 10-10-2008, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papermaker

The speed that he closed on me was absolutely out of line. I realized that there wasn't children in the street, but there is often animals as I come home.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papermaker

What if he would have lost control and went into a house.
I was going to a dead end, not an open area.

This is the end of my comments.
I asked for comments and now know that most of you really appreciate being pulled over.
So I hope you get your wishes.

Make a complaint on how he was driving if you believe he was out of line.....

It's funny how some folks will find a complaint more often when they get a warning rather than a citation

The majority of the responses here came from people who know how to do the job....I bet I wouldn't have a clue how to do your job 100%

River Ranger · 10-10-2008, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papermaker

That being said, this is the first time that I've been stopped in at least 15 years so maybe I'm over-reacting.

I would say so.

Salmon Season is right on.

Lot's of Drunks are taken off the road by fishing, but I guess many on here would rather they be left alone till they killl someone.

RR.

BarroomHero · 10-10-2008, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papermaker

The speed that he closed on me was absolutely out of line. I realized that there wasn't children in the street, but there is often animals as I come home.
What if he would have lost control and went into a house.
I was going to a dead end, not an open area.

This is the end of my comments.
I asked for comments and now know that most of you really appreciate being pulled over.
So I hope you get your wishes.

Not to mention the hours and hours of training he has been through to learn to control a vehicle at high "absolutely out of line" speeds.

Like everyone else said if you really have concerns about the speed at which he approached you talk to a supervisor. It sounds to me that you just have a problem with law enforcement in general.

Fast Water · 10-10-2008, 11:00 AM

IMO

Based on what Papermaker has said and the result of the stop (cluing us in to the PC), the officers actions were unwarranted.

bluehewes · 10-10-2008, 11:35 AM

A few hours training still doesn't make it safe or make him an expert driver.

Sounds like that cop was out of line and being very aggressive for no reason. You could make a complaint but just like you see in this thread cops are going to protect cops and it'll be a waste of your time more then anything.

Just_learning · 10-10-2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluehewes

You could make a complaint but just like you see in this thread cops are going to protect cops and it'll be a waste of your time more then anything.

Not true. I filed a complaint with the Eugene Police department in 2004 about the behavior of a police officer. The chief investigated it and sent me a letter acknowledging the officer broke the conduct of the department. It included an apology on behalf of the department and stated he would be disciplined.

All I asked for is that he undergo some kind of training to reinforce department standards.

1pump · 10-11-2008, 12:16 AM

Sounds to me like he was fishing. My guess was that he wanted to take a second look at you for whatever reason. The "insurance" PC seems pretty lame, but also pretty clever. You have no way of knowing if he really ran your plate or not, and the "DMV mistake" gives him an instant out. He might have had a hunch you were a DUI because of the time of day and you were driving slow (drunks have a tendency to do that if they see a cop).
If it had been me in that situation, I might have been tempted to ask him why he was driving like that in a residential area. The traffic stop wouldn't really bother me, but I'd be curious to ask the local PD if it was normal procedure. Not complain, mind you, just let them know that it seems a little iffy.

Funny thing is that I've gotten 2 letters in the past from the DMV requesting insurance info on my vehicles as part of a random check. If I wouldn't have responded they' would have slapped me with an SR22 for ignoring them. On the other hand, I've been driving for over 30 years, and I'd bet I've been pulled over at least 35 times (mostly in my wayward youth) and I've NEVER been asked for proof of insurance. Weird.

Thumper · 10-11-2008, 03:46 AM

They can pull me over any time. Thank goodness they are in the neighborhood.

SILVERSINK · 10-11-2008, 07:32 AM

I was working at Marylhurst college this summer and was stopped by a westlinn officer. He told me I crossed the fog line and thats the reason he stopped me. After going through the license and insuranse thing he admitted that he pulled me over because I was wearing a orange const. safty shirt and thought that i might have had a beer or two after work as const. workers have been known to have a thirst after work. I told him I havent had a drink of any kind that includes alcahol in 20 years,but if he was looking for someone who had been drinking he should have stopped the two cars that came out of the college after I did. He had a strange look on his face as he walked back to his car. FISHING

IDWITHELD · 10-11-2008, 07:39 AM

Hey, don't taze me bro!

Fishing.

veilside180sx · 10-11-2008, 07:50 AM

I understand how many big busts are made from simple traffic citation stops, but fishing is not the way to conduct these stops. There are plenty of indicators to look for, and from what is being told...it was nothing more than a cop that was bored and wanted to feel like he was doing something.

This is coming from someone who has been profiled a crazy amount of times on the street being pulled over. (over 100+ times)

IMO this isn't any better than the cop that pulled me over 5 times in one week driving home from a friends house, and would follow me for a number of miles until I almost left his juridistiction. (different car each time, as I owned 7 at the time)

Of course, there was nothing to warrant him following me in the first place...so I was let go. So I would be left on the side of the road for 30-40 minutes while he dug through my file, and then he'd let me go.

Cliff D. · 10-11-2008, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papermaker

The speed that he closed on me was absolutely out of line. I realized that there wasn't children in the street, but there is often animals as I come home.
What if he would have lost control and went into a house.
I was going to a dead end, not an open area.

This is the end of my comments.
I asked for comments and now know that most of you really appreciate being pulled over.
So I hope you get your wishes.

Nothing personal, but i hate these "what if " scenarios. You weren't "wronged" in any way, plus you've got police patroling your neighborhood around the same time the bad guys are. Was he fishing ? Possibly. Now he knows your vehicle and routine so you won't be "out of place" in the future. Don't worry, be happy !!

MrOlearhy · 10-11-2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarroomHero

The officer had probable cause to stop you, when you went for your current insurance information, that was enough for him, and he cut you loose. It's only speculation that he was fishing for a deuce, and if he was you're ok anyways because you were sober, and he came to that conclusin. Most people would be happy to have officers trying to keep drunks off the streets, but you don't even know thats what his intentions were. You haven't been stopped in fifteen years so I don't think police are unfairly profiling your vehicle. If he was rude, unprofessional, or you feel that you were wronged then contact his supervisor and tell them what happened and they will follow up.

I need to ask you to explain where the probable cause is in this case. Pulling someone over because the DMV is in error is not cause. If the registration was expired then yes. Insurance expired per DMV no. If there was no other violation then the leo was fishing and it was wrong.

24 on/ 48 off · 10-11-2008, 03:13 PM

How did the officer know that the DMV was in error?

k9jeff · 10-11-2008, 03:19 PM

I would not be concerned about being stopped. I would be concerned that my insurance is not updated with DMV. That seems to be where the ball was dropped.

BarroomHero · 10-11-2008, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrOlearhy

I need to ask you to explain where the probable cause is in this case. Pulling someone over because the DMV is in error is not cause. If the registration was expired then yes. Insurance expired per DMV no. If there was no other violation then the leo was fishing and it was wrong.

Since I wasn't there I don't know what PC was used to make the stop. WHy doesn't everyone stop over-analyzing what happened. He was let go because he was innocent of any wrong doing. If the original poster is upset about how he handled the stop (speed) talk to a supervisor. Cops aren't perfect by any means, they're humans in a uniform.

SOL · 10-11-2008, 09:03 PM

If you have only been pulled over once in West Linn consider yourself an anomaly.

I have been pulled over there for "Unreasonable Engine Noise", granted those stock V-6 Mustang's can really rumble... hahaha

OregonHuntress · 12-01-2008, 10:03 PM

I was driving my mom's car a few years ago on my way from the Portland Airport back home to Salem, Oregon. Somewhere on I-205 a cop pulled me over and and after speaking with him he stated he thought I was not old enough to be driving after dark. Well I was 25 years old at the time with my husband also in the car. I was livid he kept us there for a half hour for nothing, I was not speading I was totaly being good. He did say i swearved which i admited to as it was he flipped the lights as I went past him and he starteled me. Sorry for my rant about traffic stops.

Rbogus · 12-02-2008, 12:25 AM

I think the only probable cause a cop needs is his/her intuition. As many slugs as there is on the roads with no ins no lic. they need caught.
The probable cause factor is so dramatized any more that you would think half the people driving were lawyers.
Why should a cop have to have probable cause to stop anybody?
If everybody were legal and doing things within the law they should not worry about being stopped.
If it helps take one drunk off the road they can stop me every time they see me.

Hell-B · 12-02-2008, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rbogus

I think the only probable cause a cop needs is his/her intuition. As many slugs as there is on the roads with no ins no lic. they need caught.
The probable cause factor is so dramatized any more that you would think half the people driving were lawyers.
Why should a cop have to have probable cause to stop anybody?
If everybody were legal and doing things within the law they should not worry about being stopped.
If it helps take one drunk off the road they can stop me every time they see me.

Are you saying that you need to be arrested to protect others?

jfa686 · 12-02-2008, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rbogus

Why should a cop have to have probable cause to stop anybody?

Are you kidding me!!!!!!
Because many a soldier has made the ultimate sacrifice to ensure it's not that way!!!
GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!

StickFish · 12-02-2008, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k9jeff

I would not be concerned about being stopped. I would be concerned that my insurance is not updated with DMV. That seems to be where the ball was dropped.

Jeff Insurance policies cover a period of time shorter than valid registration on a vehicle. Are you saying that everytime we renew our insurance we should go to the DMV and update it?

Heck at the DMV they do not even look at the Insurance card. Write in a number on the form and you good to go, know body has ever double checked that for me at the DMV. Heck it isn't even the DMV where my registration is renewed its DEQ

Officer was 'fishing' no doubt and his hook came back empty.

Hell-B · 12-02-2008, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StickFish

Jeff Insurance policies cover a period of time shorter than valid registration on a vehicle. Are you saying that everytime we renew our insurance we should go to the DMV and update it?

Heck at the DMV they do not even look at the Insurance card. Write in a number on the form and you good to go, know body has ever double checked that for me at the DMV. Heck it isn't even the DMV where my registration is renewed its DEQ

Officer was 'fishing' no doubt and his hook came back empty.

Thank you for understanding what I was trying to say. As I got piled on, I first went forward, then withdrew.
One of original thoughts was that they don't have insurance info or there would be mutiple stops.

TEC · 12-02-2008, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rbogus

I think the only probable cause a cop needs is his/her intuition. As many slugs as there is on the roads with no ins no lic. they need caught.
The probable cause factor is so dramatized any more that you would think half the people driving were lawyers.
Why should a cop have to have probable cause to stop anybody?
If everybody were legal and doing things within the law they should not worry about being stopped.
If it helps take one drunk off the road they can stop me every time they see me.

Lets drop search warrents also. If you are not doing anything wrong, why worry about getting your door kicked in.

skybuster · 12-02-2008, 02:39 PM

If you don't mind officers pulling you over on a "hunch", and you have nothing to hide, I guess you won't mind them coming over and taking a look at where you live on a "hunch".

I for one am glad that we still have at least a few rights in this country, and although I'm a law abiding citizen with nothing to hide, I still deny any requests to search by law enforcement. I have nothing to hide, so there is nothing for them to find. Simple as that.

Rbogus · 12-02-2008, 03:08 PM

If I had meant to say that I would have.
What I am saying is when a cop makes a stop and finds a kilo of dope or a weapon that is illegal or murder evidence etc.. or anything illegal in or on a person and it gets thrown out of court because of a technicality it should have a safe guard so the whole case if not kicked out.
It happens all to often in court cases that evidence is kept away from the jury that would change the verdict in major cases.
It seems laws intended to protect all our rights are most often turned against the law and benefit the criminal.
Like I said, I would gladly give up the probable cause for myself if it gets drunks or bad people caught.
So much drama in a distorted thought process.

jfa686 · 12-02-2008, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rbogus

If I had meant to say that I would have.
What I am saying is when a cop makes a stop and finds a kilo of dope or a weapon that is illegal or murder evidence etc.. or anything illegal in or on a person and it gets thrown out of court because of a technicality it should have a safe guard so the whole case if not kicked out.
It happens all to often in court cases that evidence is kept away from the jury that would change the verdict in major cases.
It seems laws intended to protect all our rights are most often turned against the law and benefit the criminal.
Like I said, I would gladly give up the probable cause for myself if it gets drunks or bad people caught.
So much drama in a distorted thought process.

hogwash

rrust1 · 12-02-2008, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rbogus

If I had meant to say that I would have.
What I am saying is when a cop makes a stop and finds a kilo of dope or a weapon that is illegal or murder evidence etc.. or anything illegal in or on a person and it gets thrown out of court because of a technicality it should have a safe guard so the whole case if not kicked out.
It happens all to often in court cases that evidence is kept away from the jury that would change the verdict in major cases.
It seems laws intended to protect all our rights are most often turned against the law and benefit the criminal.
Like I said, I would gladly give up the probable cause for myself if it gets drunks or bad people caught.
So much drama in a distorted thought process.

Would you like to throw some statistics out there to back this up? The generic statement, "all to [sic] often" lacks a little in specificity for me to determine our entire evidentiary system should be tossed out for the good of the people.

skybuster · 12-02-2008, 10:15 PM

rrust1,

I'm all to familiar with the system in many ways. I've worked on both sides, and have seen the failure of both sides.

Last year I worked a child molestation case. Everyone would agree that is one of the most hideous things anyone should ever have to be associated with.

I found evidence that the accuser had falsely accused others before,was blackmailing the accused, and this evidence was backed by medical and physical evidence, however, it wasn't allowed in court here because of certain "laws".

I also found several other pieces of evidence that were eventually thrown out of the court proceedings, for no real good reason, except that the judge thought that they might "bias" the jury.

My point is this, until you have been drug through the political/legal ringer, you have no idea what your in for. No matter what the evidence says, first you have to get it admitted, then you have to convince a jury that it is right. Good luck in a police state.

rrust1 · 12-03-2008, 10:38 AM

skybuster,

I do agree that it sucks. The point I was trying to make is that there is a "lesser of two evils" that exists in the criminal justice / court system. I prefer innocent until proven guilty, which means, unfortunately, that evidence does get omitted for various reasons (eg hearsay, lack of chain of evidence, bias, etc.)

NO criminal should go free. Alternatively, no free man should be locked up based on mistake or bias.

I apologize if my response came across as a personal attack. I just see too many dim witted responses on iFish and similar forums, calling for the "string 'em up" mentality with respect to the court system.

jvp · 12-03-2008, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEC

Lets drop search warrents also. If you are not doing anything wrong, why worry about getting your door kicked in.

they did that already for traffic stops. and hey they have invaded many homes with a warrant without cause for issuance(sp)

skybuster · 12-03-2008, 05:21 PM

Officers still need probable cause or consent in order to search your vehicle in a traffic stop. Pulling you over for speeding alone is not probable cause for a search.

I also believe that an officer needs some sort of probable cause to run your license plate, and I'm not sure simply operating a vehicle at 4 am gives them that cause, so that makes the stop in this thread even more questionable.

Duckwheat · 12-03-2008, 05:52 PM

Sounds like profiling to me. Old truck, driving responsibly, sounds like it could be Al Queda or whatever.........................

Probably wanted to drive the car fast and turn the lights on.

If you had to pick the top 10 most boring jobs, being a cop has to be right there somewhere in my opinion.

DW

bad habit · 12-03-2008, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfa686

Are you kidding me!!!!!!
Because many a soldier has made the ultimate sacrifice to ensure it's not that way!!!
GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!

....what a scary comment...statesmen journal had an article several months back about license plate reading tecnology thats about to make it to town near you ....i wonder where the money for that will be taken from...so there will be no reason for randomly running plates on a car with 4 people in it becuz its 4 in the morn...

Rbogus · 12-03-2008, 06:08 PM

Quote:

hogwash

Glad you put a lot of thought in your response, you certainly put me in my spot. I would ask you to elaborate but as confusing as the one word post is I would hate to have to try and decifer a multiword post.

Quote:

Would you like to throw some statistics out there to back this up? The generic statement, "all to [sic] often" lacks a little in specificity for me to determine our entire evidentiary system should be tossed out for the good of the people

.

Well all to often to me is if even one or two cases get tossed out. Otherwise beings we are all stating opinions I understand my own quite well. If you don't understand it it is not up to me or anyone else to explain it to you.

Enjoy your day guys, contribute opinion about the thread and don't single out words, you might be taken more seriously.

rrust1 · 12-03-2008, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rbogus

Glad you put a lot of thought in your response, you certainly put me in my spot. I would ask you to elaborate but as confusing as the one word post is I would hate to have to try and decifer a multiword post.

.

Well all to often to me is if even one or two cases get tossed out. Otherwise beings we are all stating opinions I understand my own quite well. If you don't understand it it is not up to me or anyone else to explain it to you.

Enjoy your day guys, contribute opinion about the thread and don't single out words, you might be taken more seriously.

You are right. One or two cases is plenty of evidence. We should revamp the entire criminal justice system. Maybe we could change it to a game-show. The loser gets 5-10 years, or a free spin at life without parole or instant infamy and a pardon from the President.

Smoked Salmon · 12-03-2008, 06:37 PM

Ahem.

Personal attacks are not tolerated here, and due cause is not a requirement for special treatment. If you want to debate, stick to the topic, and stay away from comments that criticize the origin of the post, rather than it's content.

Thanks!

ps. this software has not yet gotten updated to include [sarcasm], [cynicism], or [kidding] tags. Please consider your words to be taken out of the context in which you could deliver them orally, and craft your statement accordingly.

24 on/ 48 off · 12-03-2008, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skybuster

I also believe that an officer needs some sort of probable cause to run your license plate, and I'm not sure simply operating a vehicle at 4 am gives them that cause, so that makes the stop in this thread even more questionable.

Nope. They don't need probable cause to do so. You want your stolen car returned, right?

--spud--

bad habit · 12-03-2008, 08:02 PM

Nope. They don't need probable cause to do so. You want your stolen car returned, right?
Thats what I was talking about in the earlier post in this thread "license plate reading technology" .Where do we get all the money for this stuff ? I thought times were rough right now...thats another topic I guess.

yes i would like my car returned . if I got pulled over for being in a stolen car its becuz someone reported it ,there is nothing random about that . Several yrs back a friend of mine was slammed to the ground , and a shotgun pointed at him..poor guy , his truck backfired and someone thought it was a drive by... he will never forget it ..on the other hand looking at it from the "authorities" view it was a potentially dangerous situation, and I agree, was called for.. oh well. nothing is perfect,no matter how hard we try. thanks to human error.

KeHols · 12-03-2008, 08:39 PM

I got out of LE a bit back and about the time I did you needed PC for a stop in order to run the drivers status. You could still run the plate. This is a resent change. I have been away for three months so maybe it has changed back. It was considered a search to run the drivers status. In order to conduct a search you need PC, consent, exigent circumstances or a warrant. But it is not very hard to find PC. Follow someone for about a block and you will have more than one violation.

Cops call it fishing. You go to a hole, stop everyone you legally can and see what you catch. Sometimes the fishing is good and sometimes bad. When the fishing is bad just move to the next spot and try your luck.

When a cop stops a driver for a very minimal infraction like swerving within the lane of travel, no front plate, signaling 75 feet before a turn instead of 100 feet and so on, they are just using that as a tool to see what ells they can find. Most of the times you come up with nothing but that one time the cop stops the car for having a clear cover over the plate and the driver is drunk and has a warrant it makes it worth it.

If I remember correctly that is how Timothy McVeigh was caught. Just a small infraction, no front plate. The cop was probably just going to give a warning and ended up with Timothy McVeigh.

GDuck · 12-03-2008, 08:49 PM

You have to run the plate to find out its stolen......?!

As for the license plate technology, the International Assn of Chiefs of Police just had their annual gathering, and the big vendor of that technology was there hocking their wares. Yes, there are some in the Portland area in use. When I worked patrol I drove around running every plate I could find around dope houses, etc on a computer. 20 years before that I pestered a dispatcher and tied up a radio same as everyone else. Its a tool that is coming soon courtesy of a wallet near you in most cases (your taxes). In other cases, feds, dope seizure money, etc., provides the money. That technology is not cheap...I believe I was told 25k for one unit, but don't quote me on that.....

G