Let us learn

[corrirod]

Let us all learn from today's tragedy. Lets not let the people who's lives were lost today die in vain.

Mother Nature has shown that she will show no mercy to those unknowing. That boat could've been any one of us on any given day. Accidents happen accidently , and they happen instantly without warning.

Please, please, please wear your lifejackets as often as you can. Waiting till your in the water to find a jacket doesn't work. I know in my boat that if the boat ever flipped there would be no way to get a life jacket out. My only hope is that my 2 throwables on my seats are able to come off before the boat goes over so someone can grab them.

I just started wearing a Stearns inflatable last year. It's not the most comfortable but I've seen how fast boats go down and I don't want to have to find a jacket while I'm freezing and being tossed in the seas.

I absolutely do not want this to happen to any of you. Based on the statistics we have from this accident, those with lifejackets lived, those without didn't. Take it for what it's worth.

I'll get off the box now. Just don't want any of my friends dead.

[Mr. Carp]

Well Said!!!

[skein]

Good words, Rod. It's gotta be just like wearing a seatbelt. I'm not much of a "they oughta pass a law" kind of guy, but since we're going out there now, we need to be wearing them now.

I'm trying to train myself to make it a habit - and I will.

Skein

[Uglygreen]

Yes - Let us learn.... "accidents" may be accidental (as in I'm sure no one ever intends to have events like this happen), but take a second look at what we know.

Boat capsized at 7:20 AM - Low tide at Barview was at 7:26 AM.

There was a large tidal exchange, one of the largest of the summer, going from a high of 8.8 ft to a low of minus 2.1 ft.

Knowing that on large exchanges the outflow lasts at least an hour past low, I suspect the crossing occured while the ebb was still pretty strong.

That is the worst possible time for a bar crossing.

The swells were unusally large, stonewall bank (50 miles south) was reporting 13.8 ft swells.

Those are the worst possible conditions for a bar crossing. Big swell and a large exchange at the bottom end of the ebb tide.

Once again people wearing life jackets survived and those who didnt perished.

Im sure there is huge pressure on charter operators on weekend summertime days to fill the boats and make the trips happen. Don't forget that so called "accidents" happen for real reasons, and this one looks to have been preventable. There is a lesson in that, fish are not worth dying for.

And don't think im just armchair quarterbacking here either, we cancelled the planned Depoe Bay rockfish trip(s) today for this very reason.


UG

[ 06-14-2003, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: Uglygreen ]

[WP]

A wake-up call for everyone. ot a panic time, just a good time to reflect on the equipment and methods we use....as well as the importance of using good judgement. I will be purchasing those inflatable life vests soon! Time to get more serious about them.
WP

[Mr. Fisherman]

This is exactly why we have argued that an early season Halibut Derby Fishery is too risky and endangers lives. I am dissapointed in those responsible and very sad for the families that have suffered the loss.
We will be visiting this issue with the commission soon. We need to insure that this lesson hits home.
Rod, thanks for your concern. Those vests are expensive but when you are in the water I bet you would pay any price for one. I am making it a priority to make the investment.
Looking at the conditions I have a hard time believing that the call was made to go. If it had not been a Halibut day the trip would likely have been cancelled. It is time to make a change for the better. Enough said, I'll get off the bow of my boat for now.
I hope for the families sake that those missing are found. My heart goes out to all involved...

[bait boy]

It was not A halibut day. thats next week

[Sea Jypzee]

Just an FYI, the Depoe Bay bar yesteday was closed to all recreational boats 40' and under. Be sure to check bar condition report before trying to cross here for anyone planning on going out.

[avid]

I purchased and wear a Sospenders World Class manually inflatable jacket that you wear as a waist belt. It has 35# of bouancy and can be inflated via the CO2 cartridge rip cord or by a secondary mouth tube. Some people may think I look like a dork but I wear them on private boats as well as charters. It's easy and comfortable to wear and that was my rationale for buying the belt pack.
http://sospenders.com/product/8030377.html

[craigc]

Good post and I'm sad to hear about another fatal accident... during the past year, I was trained on the Louie-Louie[Nehalem] to ALWAYS wear a PFD, type 2, every time we cross the bar.... no exceptions.....

When I first started fishing on the Louie-Louie, I thought this requirement was not needed, because we were actively aware of our bar crossing, and cognizant of the bar conditions... we went the whole year without an accident, never getting into a dangerous situation, although, I believe we did cross the bar in marginal conditions, which definitely had the POTENTIAL of being life threatening. This spring, my friend, Lou, rolled his boat on the Nehalem bar as he returned from a morning of fishing in heavy seas. It was not an accident, because Lou changed from his Type 5, to a 'jacket style' Type 2 before attempting the return crossing of the bar that morning.... He changed out of his type 5 because he was unsure of the reliability of the trigger mechanism. Since he had never serviced the assembly himself, I expect he didn't have enough confidence in it. I understand that fear.

Lou survived the rolling of his boat, and he said his PFD saved his life, and he was in the water for at least a half hour[fortunately, it was inside the bar on in coming tide].

I had canceled my participation that day because of my fear of the potentially dangerous weather forecast; 4 ft swells, with 4 ft wind chop over a bar with about 0.1ft at slack ebb tide. I recently voiced my unwillingness to sleep overnight in a sheltered cove off of open waters north of Nehalem because I was not safely prepared for the event. I'd like to think I'm learning something from all these ifish postings..

...after reading a year's worth of posts on ifish.net of other accidents, I have become convinced that the probability of being involved in a future boating accident is 99%. I believe this because I will continue to fish in the ocean, and the ocean is an inheritly danger environment. My only recourse is to prepare for that eventuality, as best I can. I'm still looking for a Type 5 vest with crotch straps so I can either be hoisted out of the water if I'm unconcious, or tethered to the boat until my rescurer can get their boat out the danger area. Until I find the right PFD or make one, I'll continue to wear my type 2 PFD.. I'm not fashionable, and I'm loosing my vanity, but I believe I'll be better prepared for my 'future' accident.. and be able to fish another day....

....my heart goes out to the family which has lost their loved ones, and wish them eventual peace... Craig

Depo Bay looked REAL BAD yesterday but it wasn't bad in at Newport. Rotsa Ruck went over the bar with ease. :smile:

[Miss B Haven]

CraigC - A type II is actually not the best Life Jacket, it's got less flotation and righting ability than a type I offshore jacket. In these cold and rough water a type I is much prefered.
Even better of course is a survival suit.

I like to have my flotation jacket on and sometimes my Mustang Suit on when traveling, especialy when crossing a bar.

PS:
Miss B,
Time is short this week :depressed: I'll try to swing by with fresh halibut next week :smile:

[ 06-15-2003, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Miss B Haven]

Lee- I'll be in Warrenton next weekend. Leaving Weds after work. Putzing our way down the river. Plan on hitting the dock Sat and then coming on home some time Sunday. :smile:
You bring the Halibut, I'll crank up the barbecue!

Do you have a ride home? I could do it and then will "HAVE TO" be there :grin:

[Miss B Haven]

Haven't got that far Keta. I think my bro-inlaw will drive the truck down and drop it but we haven't confirmed (I think he's down there this weekend, got a call in). Going to be 3 of us and gear (Toni's bring a girlfriend, I'll be stuck on the boat for 4 days with 2 women ) :grin:

[gimmeumpqua]

Ugly Green is correct. All emotions aside,we spend a lot of time on this board sharing valuable information about danger and safety, pros and cons, and hows and whens. The bottom line is that this boat flipped and people died because the captain-charter owners made a very poor non-judgement decision to venture over a very dangerous bar at the worst possible time in about the worst possible conditions...for money over safety. Unfortunately a common scenario in this world.

We don't need an investigation to assign blame, and the praying we should be doing now is that all of us who venture into dangerous waters will have the sense to practice what we preach and put safety before profit or desire.

Kurt

[ 06-15-2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: corrirod ]

[CrazyFish]

Corrirod
You are certainly right, we can learn from this experiance. Life jackets are very important (I should use mine more often)but there are other things to learn to. We don't always like it when the CG lays out restriction on the bar, but it's for our own good.

Ugly Green is correct. All emotions aside,we spend a lot of time on this board sharing valuable information about danger and safety, pros and cons, and hows and whens. The bottom line is that this boat flipped and people died because the captain-charter owners made a very poor non-judgement decision to venture over a very dangerous bar at the worst possible time in about the worst possible conditions...for money over safety. Unfortunately a common scenario in this world.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">

Just an FYI, the Depoe Bay bar yesteday was closed to all recreational boats 40' and under. Be sure to check bar condition report before trying to cross here for anyone planning on going out.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Hey, the Garibaldi Bar was closed to ALL CRAFT exept the inspected commercial vesals.

I can understand a commercial fishing vesal being exempt from the bar crossings, but I don't believe that a passanger carrying charter should be exempt.

Please don't get me wrong here, I think that what happened was a horrible thing and I feel for everyone involved.

[South Paw]

Now would be a good time to get on the soap box but I'll leave it you y'all of glib toung. Life Jackets and a clear head are always a good thing even in flat water. One to many beers or other libations can really screw up a good time in a hell of a hurry. Boat smart.

[Born to be Wild]

I can understand a commercial fishing vesal being exempt from the bar crossings, but I don't believe that a passanger carrying charter should be exempt.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">It's vessels CrazyFish, and I agree with you.

These guys have been pushing there luck for many years now and I'm surprised it took this long for it to catch up with them.

In Newport I have heard of charter vessels having their windows blown out by waves and seen disturbing video of them crossing the bar.

In Depoe Bay I have seen them many times having to sit out there and wait a half hour and better while the Coast Guard is calling them flat spots and motoring behind them in attempts of breaking the waves down a bit. I and others have still pic's and video of charter boats out there when they shouldn't. I have video that the Coast Guard had me make them a copy of a 30' charter boat almost capsizing. Whistlestop has a pic in there store of the 43' Prime Time with experienced Dickey Bird at the helm sitting in the Depoe Bay hole sideways. I know of several charter and commercial boats that have hit the rocks entering Depoe Bay in the nine years I have been here not only punturing holes in their hulls but one guy got his ribs broke.

In Garibaldi, that's another story. To make it a short story, let's just say that I have heard a couple charter captains joking around about some of the fabulous bar crossings they have made in the past.

When is it going to stop?

The salty dogs cancelled the Depoe Bay outing several days before the weekend (I'm up here in Longview). Obviously the Garibaldi trips should have been cancelled also.

One report on the main forum said that Steve Dana's deckhand on the Oakland Pilot was knocked out cold from a wave.

The Oregonian reported that the Taki Tooo left the marina at 6:30am and waited nearly an hour for the bar to settle down. The Taki tooo capsized at 7:18am.

Quote of Jim Tate from the Oregonian:

But even with business being slow, Tate said conditions Saturday -- a minus tide and a predicted swell of 12 feet -- were too rough to risk putting boats in the ocean, at least in Depoe Bay. In his words, "we didn't turn a wheel today."

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I know Jim Tate and his partener Lars Robison that skippers the 50' Sampson real well. I have great respect for Lars because he does not even consider taking customers out in inclimate weather or anything close to "dangerous" and gladly refunds there money or deposits.

Captains like him are few and far between.

Dan

[corrirod]

O.k., before this thread gets too far down the road of blaming captains, crew, and owners, lets focus on the lessons! I started this thread and I'll delete it immediately if this turns into a hanging.

My intent with this thread was to examine what things could've been done (Using 20/20 hindsight!) to avoid this situation, not to place blame. I want to make sure that nobody from this board ends up in the same conditions with the same results. I want everyone to understand that Mother Nature shows no mercy to the unprepared.

Whether you own your own boat, only use charters, or you have friends and family that use charters, know what to expect when entering the North Pacific Ocean.

Don't beat a dead captain! Let's learn from the event and leave the sentencing to the officials.

This thread is for productive thoughts to encourage safe boating. If that's already been covered then I'll lock the thread. If any of you have more ideas or thoughts based on your experiences please post them for others to learn.

These are the things you should learn:

-Know your tide tables and only go out during safe tide swings
-Know your boat's capacity
-Wear your lifejacket
-Understand the entire picture of what the weather is going to do that day.
-Know where all the safety equipment is on the boat.
-Always be alert to your surroundings. All crew members should be on the lookout, especially when crossing the bar.
-Have atleast a basic understanding of how to use the boat electronics(GPS,radar,compass,etc.)
-????????

Keep the list going.

[ 06-15-2003, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: corrirod ]

[OceanBlue]

Sometimes... sometimes... :depressed: All the safety gear and precautions in the world can't save ya. :depressed:

Wear a life vest, mustang suit or whatever. Take a knock in the head when the boat goes over, or suffer a catastrophic medical event from the shock of hitting cold water, or panic alone, and there may be nothing in the world that could have been done differently. Stuff happens. Tragic, but true.

All we can do is try to minimize the likelihood of that happening.

Gee, Aren't I just the Cheery Charlie today?!

[Re:Play]

Well said Corrirod! I got capsized in a sneaker wave in October 1995 in the Tillamook bubble. Absolutely beautiful day, surface mirror like, no wind etc. We were between the Jaws, off the mouth in about 36' of water. But--we had about 16 seconds after we saw the rogue wave start to break, and that is not a lot of time. I had been through the Coast Guard boating safety course, and remembered that sometimes injuries happen from being slammed against the boat, so we got down on the floor. Both I and my buddy had our life jackets on! and were picked up shortly by other fisherman. The conditions were absolutely flat ocean ---except of the rogue wave. The bar was open all morning and we had been in the jaws and outside several times.

If your lifejacket is uncomfortable, get a different one. I have a lot of difference in comfort between different brands. I have gone to the inflatible, but would wear it if was comfortable or not.

[Miss B Haven]

No blame here- just fact. An un-inspected commercial vessel for hire (Charter boat) has to play by the same rules as any "pleasure" boat (that's you and me) as far as bar crossings/CG rules.
Crazyfish- If the bar was closed to you and me (it may have been closed just to a certain size), it was closed to charters as well. Commercial is different, the gov. can not stop a "farmer" (which is what a commercial fishermen is considered) from making a living.

Crasyfish said: "I can understand a commercial fishing vessel being exempt from the bar crossings, but I don't believe that a passanger carrying charter should be exempt."

[blubeast]

Good reminder Rod. When I first started about venturing out on the salt a couple of years ago, my wife only had ONE request.... that I wear my life jacket whenever I'm out on the ocean... bar crossings especially.

Have always done so and will continue to.

[Uglygreen]

Hey Rod,

I respectfully have to disagree with you here...

One of the main lessons here, the one that should give us all pause to think, is that a captain is responsible for the lives of his crew and passengers. No if's and's or but's allowed. That goes for the captain of a navy destroyer, the captain of fishing charter, or the captain of a private Salty Dog boat chasing tuna.

Let me restate that... The people that you or I invite on our boats for a friendly "fishing adventure" are placing their lives in our hands. They are depending on our sound judgement as boat owners and captains to come home to their family at the end of the day.

The captain of the Taki Tooo killed himself and ten other people. Glossing that over is a mistake.

All of those people expected to come home alive at the end of the day. All of them expected the captain to bring them home alive at the end of the day. No matter what the final circumstances or details might be, the captain is the one person who is responsible for the safe operation and return of the boat. If anyone here can't handle that they should be in no way operating a boat on the big blue lake.

Maybe you got up at 2 AM. Maybe you drove 4 hours. Maybe you already spent a buncha money on gas and ice and bait. Maybe you promised your friends the trip of a lifetime. Maybe your buddies are pressuring you to go. Maybe this is the only day you have off all summer. Maybe its the last day of the season. Maybe, maybe, maybe. The pressures to make a trip happen in "marginal" conditons can be enormous.

The lesson for us is that if you dont have both the brains to make a sound judgement and the balls to stand by that decision no matter what anyone else thinks you better just go back to the trout pond right now.

Keep that in mind every time you go out. YOU are responsible for the lives of your friends.

UG

[ 06-15-2003, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Uglygreen ]

[Threemuch]

Mel-
The bar was open to "inspected" vessels. This means inspected during construction, not just the current CG safety inspection. All charter vessels over six-pack in passengers must be "inspected". My understanding is that an "inspected" vessel is worth 50-100K more than an uninspected vessel of the same size and make.

It's pretty common in Garibaldi for them to open the bar to inspected vessels, but keep it closed to all other boats. When you ride on one of the six pack boats (bullfrog, topaz) there is a chance that they will close the bar to your boat, but let other charters out.

KB

[gimmeumpqua]

Sorry Rod, I too must respectfully disagree. There is no lesson to be learned here. We have all been professing the do's and dont's of crossing a coastal bar. This was not a rogue wave on an otherwise calm day. This was not a mistake, nor was it an accident. It was a gamble plain and simple....with poor odds, and grave consequences. No different than speeding through an intersection with a red light, or crossing a double yellow in a blind curve.

What motivated that fateful decision God may only know.

My sincere condolences to all those who perished...


Kurt

[corrirod]

Ahhh, if it were only that simple UG.

You're beating the dead captain which is not what this thread is for. This thread is to help future captains, as well as future passengers, understand what NOT to do.

Do you feel that the captain of the Taki Tooo is going to be the last captain to ever make a poor decision? I hate to disappoint you but there will be more and the idea of this thread is to educate EVERYONE so they do not commit the same fatal errors. Yes, the captain is responsible for his passenger's lives. That statement doesn't mean 'squat' to the people who no longer have husbands and fathers coming home to them tonight.

Protect yourself. This thread was supposed to be a way to bring fatal errors to light, not only for boat captains, but also passengers. Passengers shouldn't just go blindly onto a boat with the mindset "I don't have to worry about anything. The captain is responsible for me."

Would you have boarded that boat as a passenger? No. And why not? Because you knew what the conditions were going to be like. And even if you did get on that boat you probably would've worn your lifevest wouldn't you? Because you know what can happen at any time.

If we've run out of productive things to contribute then so be it. I would beg of everyone on this board to go out and learn everything you can about boating in the ocean so you can make an educated decision about your safety. Don't just TRUST your captain.