Slow death of the General Season???

[leadeyedbugger]

My father and I were talking over the weekend about elk hunting. I am now a traitor to the family since i am giving bow hunting a try this year. Therefore i will not be joining the rest of my family on the usual rifle elk hunt. Our conversation ended up talking about the unit that we hunt(white River) which is a general season tag. We discussed the apparent expodential increase in hunters and hunting pressure in the last 6 or so years. The conclusion that we come to is that the reason is that its harder to draw eastside elk tags then ever before and people that don't draw the tags of course hunt a general season, problem is the general season areas get more crowded all the time as there are less general tags all the time and draw tags get harder to draw all the time. Kinda makes you wonder how long the elk populations in places like the white river unit will hold up to the ever increasing hunting pressure and starts to dive and ODFW is forced to start making even more areas draw units

[ehunter]

Very true but you also forgot how it gets to be less and less fun hunting in those crowded units as well

Originally Posted by leadeyedbugger

My father and I were talking over the weekend about elk hunting. I am now a traitor to the family since i am giving bow hunting a try this year. Therefore i will not be joining the rest of my family on the usual rifle elk hunt. Our conversation ended up talking about the unit that we hunt(white River) which is a general season tag. We discussed the apparent expodential increase in hunters and hunting pressure in the last 6 or so years. The conclusion that we come to is that the reason is that its harder to draw eastside elk tags then ever before and people that don't draw the tags of course hunt a general season, problem is the general season areas get more crowded all the time as there are less general tags all the time and draw tags get harder to draw all the time. Kinda makes you wonder how long the elk populations in places like the white river unit will hold up to the ever increasing hunting pressure and starts to dive and ODFW is forced to start making even more areas draw units

[Capt. Slick]

Very true!! not sure it would be a bad thing i will not hunt general season because of the crowd. it takes the fun out of hunting.

[Mossyhorn]

It's a double edged sword in my opinion. Everyone talks about hunter recruitment and how it's the only way hunting will survive, well where are all these new hunters suppose to hunt? Things get more crowded, more places go to a draw or limited entry and people get fed up with waiting for tags or hunting shoulder to shoulder with everyone else and lose interest.

Archery is getting every more popular also, it has the appeal of long seasons, during the rut and almost statewide general seasons. That has come with a price, now places are getting ever more crowded and even getting off the road several miles will still result in running into people.

Bottom line, if we want more hunters coming into our sport to "SAVE" us then we will pay the price with decreased opportunity.

[Limbhanger]

Originally Posted by Mossyhorn

Bottom line, if we want more hunters coming into our sport to "SAVE" us then we will pay the price with decreased opportunity.

We could have significant increases of opportunity in certain areas if the ODFW Commission would expand the cougar target areas. According the studies done in N.E. Oregon, 74% of the elk calf mortality is due to cougar predation. Calf studies in the Heppner region show a 50% increase in calf survival since cougar removal started there just 2 years ago.
The commission needs to hear from the hunting community, or they listen to the only group speaking up......the anti's.

[BlacktailBowhunter]

Originally Posted by Limbhanger

We could have significant increases of opportunity in certain areas if the ODFW Commission would expand the cougar target areas. According the studies done in N.E. Oregon, 74% of the elk calf mortality is due to cougar predation. Calf studies in the Heppner region show a 50% increase in calf survival since cougar removal started there just 2 years ago.
The commission needs to hear from the hunting community, or they listen to the only group speaking up......the anti's.

[huntercgr]

Kinda makes you wonder how long the elk populations in places like the white river unit will hold up to the ever increasing hunting pressure and starts to dive and ODFW is forced to start making even more areas draw units

News flash, take a look at the success rates for the last 6 years. Without looking I'm guessing it's at 6-8%. The fact is most folks won't delve deep enough into the wilderness to make an impact on those herds.

[stillwater97]

One more thing to consider is that our deer & Elk populations aren't that high in Oregon. From what I've heard they never fully recovered from the cold spell in the early 90's.

I've also heard that the habitat is much different than it was back in the 70's and 80's. no clear cutting nowadays means less forage for deer and elk.

To be honest, I don't know what ODFW does to manage deer & elk herds. I don't know if they work to improve habitat & reduce predation in order to grow more animals. I've never heard of them doing much, but that doesn't mean that they aren't. I have seen a lot more cougar sign in recent years though.....


PS...

Mike,

we should get out and hunt after work this season!!

MB

[Thehunter]

The issue is ODFW would love to make every unit a draw. More money for them and control. There for they claim that the Ochoco Unit is to crowded. They shut it off to all hunters accept 800. That forces 3000 other hunters to find new areas. Take the grizzly Unit next, why because is it's right next to the ochoco unit. Now you have 2000 extra hunters in it. Well that just to many let's make it a draw.....It's a waterfall effect. ODFW wants control of every unit.

My vote is to chose your weapon. I think rifle hunting is already screwed up. You might be able to save bow hunting if they did that. I know lots of people who bow hunt just because they didn't draw rifle. If you had to make that choice before you applied for tags then it would change everything in my mind.

Another issue i have with ODFW is that they clame that 800 Bow hunter is amply for the ochoco unit. Then why do they offer 3500 Rifle deer tags? I'm not sure of the exact numbers but i know there is a huge differance. It's called Equal opurtunity and they need to honor it.

[ORsouthpaw]

I think you combine the increased difficulty in drawing a tag, Lack of predator management, decrease in overall game numbers, general season over crowding(Bow and Rifle) and now land access fees and it clearly spells out the demise of the general recreational hunting as we know it.

The general season itself has been dying for the last 30 years. Yes for those of us that hunt each year and put out above average efforts there are still opportunities to be had even on the West side. But new hunters and most general season hunters simply want to buy their tag and have game present and readily available to them. The glory days have long since passed and although it was never really "easy" to bag an animal, it is becoming incredibly harder and harder every fall. With most people searching for the easy button in everything that they do, they become frustrated after a mere season or two of trying. They simply move on to another sport or hobby. Increases in the costs of tags, fuel and everything else is also killing our sport but that's inflation and I can accept that.

I don't care how much ODFW says they want to promote hunter recruitment, until I actually see an improvement in the said areas it's just lip service. What do I propose? Well to start with how about a harvest card for cougars that will allow more than one per hunter, How about not mandating that a person has to buy and elk and/or deer tag just to hunt predators in the fall. I say start with the obvious predator issue and then chip away at other items. Once that begins to happen the game numbers will start going the other direction.

Hopefully!

[mtn300]

I don't even bother with genral season hunts. It is a waste of time, money, and fuel. Why go hunt with your 1000 best friends for the very few animals that are out there. I go to idaho and buy a general tag. I drew three tags in oregon and I most likely will only buy 1 unless second season elk gets snow. The rest of the time I will be in idaho.

[ORsouthpaw]

Originally Posted by Thehunter

My vote is to chose your weapon. I think rifle hunting is already screwed up. You might be able to save bow hunting if they did that. I know lots of people who bow hunt just because they didn't draw rifle. If you had to make that choice before you applied for tags then it would change everything in my mind.

I hunt both, prefer archery but have too many rifle hunters in the family to totally give it up...Yet! I know from a personal stand point not allowing me fall back on my bow when unsuccessful in the draw would force me into only archery hunting a lot faster. Get enough people doing that same thing and instead of decreasing your hunting competition you will actually see an increase. How would you feel if the archery numbers grew to the point that every unit on the east side became a draw only tag? Personally I believe that we should be providing every oppourtunity that we can for people to help re-grow the sport.

[Thehunter]

Originally Posted by ORsouthpaw

I hunt both, prefer archery but have too many rifle hunters in the family to totally give it up...Yet! I know from a personal stand point not allowing me fall back on my bow when unsuccessful in the draw would force me into only archery hunting a lot faster. Get enough people doing that same thing and instead of decreasing your hunting competition you will actually see an increase. How would you feel if the archery numbers grew to the point that every unit on the east side became a draw only tag? Personally I believe that we should be providing every oppourtunity that we can for people to help re-grow the sport.

HELLO....Where have you been...The eastside is well on it's way to draw only for bow....I would expect in less than 5 years Eastern oregon will be draw for each unit or even sections. That is right 6 differnet sections. The only reason i know that is I have some insite to some ODFW officals. However i feel it will be unit, it was just a thought by them.

[baltz526]

a good guess is in 5 years, all tags on the eastside will be draw. hunter numbers will drop, fees will raise, herd numbers will also decline and general seasons will be gone on the west side. unit tag numbers in the drawings will be 80% higher than than they should be just as tags like the paulina fort rock bull tag are.

[ehunter]

I agree the Ochocos was supposed to be a kind of trial it is only a matter of time because so many people have gone to the bow when they can't draw a tag and I don't blame them. I agree it seems more and more crowded during bow season. I also think and you can all blast away that it is causing some ethics to errode since some guys only bowhunt every couple of years and are not totaly commited to the process. I went to a bow to avoid people and crowding. I am thinking I will be doing more and more out of state hunting in the future. I would prefer a good quality hunt out of state every other year than hunting in Oregon. Can you imagine hunting in a area you can pass up 4 points in the hope of getting a really decent buck. Oregon has a long ways to go improve our situation. I mean you could go the WY right now buy over the counter tags for deer elk, and antelope over the counter wow what a concept....

Originally Posted by Thehunter

HELLO....Where have you been...The eastside is well on it's way to draw only for bow....I would expect in less than 5 years Eastern oregon will be draw for each unit or even sections. That is right 6 differnet sections. The only reason i know that is I have some insite to some ODFW officals. However i feel it will be unit, it was just a thought by them.

[flyin chrome]

Having archery hunted my entire life (22 years) I have seen a dramatic shift to archery hunting. This is obviously because of the general season and longer season. In this time I have also seen a dramatic increase in mature bulls in the unit that I hunt.
I also spend a lot of time working with the forest service as well as ODFW in this area. We really need to forcus on improving the habitat for these animals as well as PREDATOR REDUCTION. As was mentioned above the Heppner unit went from 15 calves per hundered cow in march of 2006 to 30 per hundred cows in March of this year. In the Ukiah unit they remained at slightly less than 15 calves per hundred cows this year. These elk travel between units and the only difference in management for these units is the cougar management plan. This winter will be the last winter for the cougar reduction plan. They are considering options for managing these cougar over the years but there is currently no approved plan for that. The numbers stand for themselves. The herd can sustain itself if we give them a chance and cougars are a huge part of the equation.
Last year I posted about going draw for archery in many eastern oregon units. I might even support it. It would be a very sad day for me but it truely is not the same experience when there are 15 or more rigs parked on a closed road system on opening day. On the way out from my hunt by mid season there will be beer cans and cigarette butts all over these closed roads. I do not know or pretend to know all the answers but I do know based on the facts that the herd can in fact support and actually build numbers by cougar reduction.
Just my two cents.

[Mossyhorn]

Wyoming is a draw for everything for NR's by the way.

As far as the east side going to a drwa I don't think it would be a bad thing. Tag numbers would be high enough to accomidate hunters a tag every other year at the least. There are enough places that are low demand that you could get a tag as a second choice I would imagine. It would definitely bring the walla walla and wenaha draw odds way down, it would force people to choose what they wanted to put in for. I hunt the east exclusively for elk and I love it. But I hate worrying about whether or not I'm going to run into people when I'm 3 miles off the road. I hunt on foot and off the roads and consistently run into people. I am at the furthest I can get from any open road. So if it meant I could hunt with half the people that are currently out there and only hunting every other year over there, I could make due and hunt the cascades or the coast. Or do something else like Colorado.

[leadeyedbugger]

I know that for myself i am trying out archery hunting for the first time this year. Multiple reasons played into the decision with the main ones being just to try something different,to be around some elk during the rut, and a longer season, also alot of my friends bow hunt and i like hunting with at least one other person so we can help each other to pack meat and such. Also the flexability of being able to go different places, i have hunted the same 2 units for deer and elk my whole life and i wanted to experience some new country.
To me this just seems like a downward spiral that everyone can see coming but knowone seems to be able to stop....And i understand the success rates of these general seasons like white river however, when you get more and more peoplein there every year then more and more animals will be harvested.
I don't know, i guess i am just concerned about the current situation that we are in and wanted to hear some thoughts from you guys.

[ehunter]

Yes it is but as in WY and many other states you can still buy over the counter tags even if your a NR. Left over tags and under suscribed tags

I agree with you assesment by the way. Is it me but Is Oregon starting to feel small

Originally Posted by Mossyhorn

Wyoming is a draw for everything for NR's by the way.

As far as the east side going to a drwa I don't think it would be a bad thing. Tag numbers would be high enough to accomidate hunters a tag every other year at the least. There are enough places that are low demand that you could get a tag as a second choice I would imagine. It would definitely bring the walla walla and wenaha draw odds way down, it would force people to choose what they wanted to put in for. I hunt the east exclusively for elk and I love it. But I hate worrying about whether or not I'm going to run into people when I'm 3 miles off the road. I hunt on foot and off the roads and consistently run into people. I am at the furthest I can get from any open road. So if it meant I could hunt with half the people that are currently out there and only hunting every other year over there, I could make due and hunt the cascades or the coast. Or do something else like Colorado.

[ORsouthpaw]

Originally Posted by Thehunter

HELLO....Where have you been...The eastside is well on it's way to draw only for bow....I would expect in less than 5 years Eastern oregon will be draw for each unit or even sections. That is right 6 differnet sections. The only reason i know that is I have some insite to some ODFW officals. However i feel it will be unit, it was just a thought by them.

I've been right here watching the whole time. I just think that by making people choose a weapon by mid-May each year that you would only be rapidly accelerating what seems to be inevitable which is the total elimination of the over the counter general season tags for Rifle and Archery. Obviously rifle first which will force a lot more people to pick up a bow, then archery will be draw only. Since hunters like to hunt the next thing could be waterfowl and upland game hunting limitations. Then more and more hunters will be exploring the fun of fishing. The next thing you now you have to apply for a salmon tag. As others have said eventually the solution for residents will be to start hunting outside of the state. I hate to think what resident hunting fees will look like when that starts happening?

[WSU]

Originally Posted by ORsouthpaw

I've been right here watching the whole time. I just think that by making people choose a weapon by mid-May each year that you would only be rapidly accelerating what seems to be inevitable which is the total elimination of the over the counter general season tags for Rifle and Archery. Obviously rifle first which will force a lot more people to pick up a bow, then archery will be draw only. Since hunters like to hunt the next thing could be waterfowl and upland game hunting limitations. Then more and more hunters will be exploring the fun of fishing. The next thing you now you have to apply for a salmon tag. As others have said eventually the solution for residents will be to start hunting outside of the state. I hate to think what resident hunting fees will look like when that starts happening?

That all seems very far-fetched. Washington requires that you choose a weapon choice and has for a long time. They still have more general seasons that Oregon. Most of both western and eastern Washington have general seasons, and many units have multiple seasons. No undue restrictions on upland hunting, waterfowl hunting, and you can still buy over the counter salmon tags. It does, however, suck to have to choose your weapon choice prior to putting in for the drawing.

[ORsouthpaw]

Originally Posted by WSU

That all seems very far-fetched. Washington requires that you choose a weapon choice and has for a long time. They still have more general seasons that Oregon. Most of both western and eastern Washington have general seasons, and many units have multiple seasons. No undue restrictions on upland hunting, waterfowl hunting, and you can still buy over the counter salmon tags. It does, however, suck to have to choose your weapon choice prior to putting in for the drawing.

Far fetched? Maybe in my lifetime! But not at all impossible. Do you think that your grandfather or great grandfather ever thought that they wouldn't be able to buy or even draw a deer tag in a unit they had hunted since the 1940's & 50's? The same place where they used to just buy an over the counter tag? Mine didn't. Just the same as they wouldn't believe that there are units in Oregon that you have to apply for more than 12 years just to have a chance at a elk.

[WSU]

Originally Posted by ORsouthpaw

Far fetched? Maybe in my lifetime! But not at all impossible. Do you think that your grandfather or great grandfather ever thought that they wouldn't be able to buy or even draw a deer tag in a unit they had hunted since the 1940's & 50's? The same place where they used to just buy an over the counter tag? Mine didn't. Just the same as they wouldn't believe that there are units in Oregon that you have to apply for more than 12 years just to have a chance at a elk.

No, but times have changed. I doubt my grandfather and great grandfather were aware that the terrible landuse policies of the day would create all the problems and necessary changes that they have. Knowledge in this day and age is entirely different than it used to be, and regulations are set accordingly. I'm not making any argument about the pros and cons of the various management schemes being discusses here, but referrence to what earlier generations did may explain why our fisheries are a fraction of what they used to be and a lot of habitat is so altered. Add to this the greater populations of the northwest and the management picture looks much different then it used to.

[ORsouthpaw]

Originally Posted by WSU

No, but times have changed. I doubt my grandfather and great grandfather were aware that the terrible landuse policies of the day would create all the problems and necessary changes that they have. Knowledge in this day and age is entirely different than it used to be, and regulations are set accordingly. I'm not making any argument about the pros and cons of the various management schemes being discusses here, but referrence to what earlier generations did may explain why our fisheries are a fraction of what they used to be and a lot of habitat is so altered. Add to this the greater populations of the northwest and the management picture looks much different then it used to.

I couldn't agree more. But I do believe some of the practices used were effective at least in the sense of helping produce game numbers. Take clear cutting for example. I absolutely hate seeing them when I'm afield but I also know that within the next 1-3 years they will be a good spots to hunt adjacent to because the forage that they produce promotes animal population growth. The biggest issue with doing this now days is that it really only results in producing more food for the non-human predators because the average hunter can't draw a tag anyway.

[Buglemn]

Originally Posted by leadeyedbugger

My father and I were talking over the weekend about elk hunting. I am now a traitor to the family since i am giving bow hunting a try this year. Therefore i will not be joining the rest of my family on the usual rifle elk hunt. Our conversation ended up talking about the unit that we hunt(white River) which is a general season tag. We discussed the apparent expodential increase in hunters and hunting pressure in the last 6 or so years. The conclusion that we come to is that the reason is that its harder to draw eastside elk tags then ever before and people that don't draw the tags of course hunt a general season, problem is the general season areas get more crowded all the time as there are less general tags all the time and draw tags get harder to draw all the time. Kinda makes you wonder how long the elk populations in places like the white river unit will hold up to the ever increasing hunting pressure and starts to dive and ODFW is forced to start making even more areas draw units

Welcome to real hunting, you probably will never go back!

[ehunter]

Our grandfathers were smarter than we are they did not let greenies determine how we lived. Hey they got rid of the wolves and the coyotes and the cougars and now we have all of them back. I always thought by looking at back in history gave you a chance to prevent making the same mistakes in future guess not.

Originally Posted by ORsouthpaw

I couldn't agree more. But I do believe some of the practices used were effective at least in the sense of helping produce game numbers. Take clear cutting for example. I absolutely hate seeing them when I'm afield but I also know that within the next 1-3 years they will be a good spots to hunt adjacent to because the forage that they produce promotes animal population growth. The biggest issue with doing this now days is that it really only results in producing more food for the non-human predators because the average hunter can't draw a tag anyway.

[Eagleclaw]

I will start hunting more out of state next year... probably Colorado and Idaho to start. I'll keep applying for points in Oregon but do most of my archery hunting out of state.

[mtn300]

Originally Posted by Eagleclaw

I will start hunting more out of state next year... probably Colorado and Idaho to start. I'll keep applying for points in Oregon but do most of my archery hunting out of state.

That is exactly what I am doing I couldn't agree more.