Possible open seat (s) Thursday maybe Friday 5-1&2

[Mr. Fisherman]

To the Rock Pile.
I like the looks of the forecast and the trend so much I may cancel the family vacation to go play on a friendly ocean.
Anybody interested in sharing expenses to go hunt spiney, toothy and maybe an early tussle with BFB?
My wife and son may or may not come along. The wife is going in for a "procedure" and may not be up to the task, depending on weather.
What do ya say Maties, up to a pre season Tango? A little pre-season scout about?
Post up and be heard....
The Salmon should be there
The mere thought of this trip is Carc-O-Licious...

[ 04-27-2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Fisherman ]

[kenai]

I noticed the forecast for thurs was finally looking good as well. I'm gonna watch it close this week and hopefully a rockpile trip is in the works for Friday. I'd be glad to join up for a trip out. I havent been out since Feb. and jonesing for some saltwater action. I have some downriggers to break in and hopefully we can locate some salmonoids.

[WildHawg]

Check your e-mail Ray.

[CAPT KUJO]

I'm only telling you as a "heads up". I spent 4 hours last week with investigators from the United States Coast Guard's Marine Safety Office here in Portland, regarding my Captians license, random drug testing, chartering without a license, etc.

Posting like this without a license is illegal. In fact it's illegal to share expenses or barter. I'm only telling you this as the investigators are "hip" to ifish.net and you should just be careful about these kinds of postings if you're not personally licensed and insured with a certificate of insurance posted with the Oregon State Marine board.

enough said from me BE CAREFUL

CAPT KUJO

[Fishslayer]

I could be wrong but my understanding of it was if your "sharing expenses" and there is no profit then there is no problem.Its this not correct?

[WildHawg]

I think you are incorrect Kim. I too have possessed a Masters License, and guided for 15 years. I don't know the statute law, but every conversation I have ever had with a gamecop on the subject has led me to believe it is legal to SHARE expenses.
In hindsight, I am not sure about offering to trade lead for a trip like I did--so I'll give it away free and share expenses, which I stated to both folks I talked with before this thread was ever initiated.
I know how much it costs to operate a vessel--I've had around a dozen. If one could not share expenses, no one could ever afford to fish.
It is unreasonable at the very least, and I guaranty that true sharing of expenses, which is what I now do, would be very, very difficult to proseciute under guiding statutes.
If law enforcement agents are lurking--please allow me to be your first test case. I share expenses, and am proud of it. You can't stop me Coppers!!! I've been known to leave $ in peoples ashtrays when they wouldn't take any money [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] !!!!!
If you're a good actor, maybe you could con me into taking you on a trip with all the amenities of a guided one, at 10% of the cost!!! I'll take your money--within reason of course!
I aint buying it--and if it's true, it shouldn't be. Please allow me to be your test case [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img] !!!

[Mello-Yello]

Sounds like you ticked somebody off Capt. K. This is just too silly...like something's been taken out of context.

[img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

[Mark Mc]

There is the law how it is written which is one very specific thing, and there is the interpretation which could vary depending on which CG office you talk to, or even which individual within the same CG office.

My understanding of the way the rule is written, is that the sharing of expenses can not be a condition of passage. The sharing of expenses must be voluntary. It is completely legal for anyone to say to the boat owner at the fuel dock, "gee let me pay for that fuel." Or "gee let me buy the bait."

But to openly solicit passengers with the condition / expectation of a cost, could definitely be considered crossing the line.

There are other chat boards that even have separate lists of those seeking riders willing to share expenses. The Coast Guard is not going after these folks. They are more interested in a "bootlegger" who is trying to operate his boat like a charter boat for profit, without being licensed. I have not yet met Mr. Fisherman, but I know from his posts that he is sincerely trying to help a few folks without boats to get a fishing trip. This is a far cry from the bootleggers the CG would pursue.

All this being said, KJ it takes some courage to raise this issue on this board so it's probably a good thing you brought it up, even if it was a little blunt & Mr. Fisherman happened to be in the cross-fire; perhaps that's just your style & no harm intended.

I'll see if I can find the exact regulatory citation & post it here.

Edit: Here ya go:

SEC. 506. PASSENGER FOR HIRE.

Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (21) and (22) a new paragraph (21a) to read as follows:

"(21a) 'passenger for hire' means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel.".


SEC. 507. CONSIDERATION.

Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (5) and (6) a new paragraph (5a) to read as follows:

"(5a) 'consideration' means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies.".
---------------------

So the key word is VOLUNTARY. Perhaps the way to "invite" people is say: "You are being invited as my guest. Any voluntary contributions are graciuosly accepted but not expected." Then you do a "wink wink, I like PBJ sandwiches."

[ 04-28-2003, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Mark Mc ]

[Mello-Yello]

Very well written Mark Mc! I wish I had your tact. I'll learn...

I would never consider "making" someone pay expenses to go out on the ocean with me. Never!

On occasion, however, I have been known to request donations to return from the ocean.

[CAPT KUJO]

As in my original post...This was strictly a "heads up". Whether you want to believe me or not is up to you. The law is the law and the Coast Guard made that perfectly clear.

Now they also said there not out to bust you and your friends cause they know it's the way friends are. But as Mark said if they think you're "bootlegging" just watch yourself becuase they are serious!

And posting with "shared expenses" goes beyond your friends and you may be pushing the limit.

If you don't want to believe me call MSO Portland, ask for LTJG Mary Ann Gelecosta or her boss in investigations and get it straight from the "horses mouth".

I was also under the impression as you all about "shared expenses among friends" being ok. Well I got my answer directly from MSO Portland. Its NOT! They refered to a 1990 law in the Code of Federal Regulations. I will reasearch it and post the specific CFR they are refering to for your information.

I'm licensed and insured so I'm not worried about it. But as I said I asked them "point blank" about sharing expenses and they flat out answered my question.

Let me also tell you what they told me about having my wife aboard while chartering. If she does not pay me and does something as simple as "handle a line" she is considered a crewman and as such must be drug tested and join a drug consortium. How rediculus is that! She's on every trip with me, but now she gets a "reciept for payment" and I must include her in my 6 customers.

Don't think I like this....Just trying to help you CYA!!!

CAPT KUJO

Again this post was meant for my "salty dog bros" to CYA. That's it. Take it or leave it.

DON'T KILL THE MESSENGER!!!

[WildHawg]

Posted by Mark: "All this being said, KJ it takes some courage to raise this issue on this board so it's probably a good thing you brought it up, even if it was a little blunt & Mr. Fisherman happened to be in the cross-fire; perhaps that's just your style & no harm intended."

Good angle Mark. May very well have been what Capt. Kujo intended to imply. Very difficult to gage personality, emotions, senses of humor, etc etc on line.
My sense is that USIA takes every part of their business very seriously (witness their concern over goretex), and this is merely an extension of his concern for the public.
Added after Kujo's reply: Thanks. Like I said, the spirit of the law doesn't want to force us to stop, but apparently there is a fine line between shared expenses and guided trips.
I'll still stick the $ in your ashtray!

[ 04-28-2003, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: WildHawg ]

A base commander in Ketchikan started interpreting the law this way until public out cry and political pressure got them to drop it.
CK is right about how it can be enforced. The way that they were doing it in KTN was that the boat owner had to pay for everything.

[Miss B Haven]

widdhawg said: "I've been known to leave $ in peoples ashtrays when they wouldn't take any money" :grin:
SO...you're one of those are you? Start of last year I found $60 bucks tucked in a pocket on my foul weather jacket. Don't know how long it had been there- hadn't worn it in 6 mths, hadn't stuck my hand in a pocket for???? :whazzup:
Then last winter after the Sturg Smackathon I was cleaning the boat and found $40 under one of my non skid place mats. Who do you suppose "lost" that there?
Think I'll get arrested?

[CAPT KUJO]

One thing I've learn about sharing information on ifish.net

"people don't care how much you know..... until they know how much you care!!!!!


I CARE ABOUT ALL OF YOU!!!!!

CAPT KUJO

[Mr. Fisherman]

Thanks for the heads up KJ, I'll take it and run.
If a bootlegger gets caught by the Coast Guard they (the boot legger) should limp
However, I as a sport fisherman have several friends out there and choose to use this forum to give notice that I may have room onboard for a friend or two who knows where my ash tray is.
If the law is more interested in revenuing these individules that are voluntarily sharing expenses then the volunteers can and should leverage to correct the law. This does happen from time to time as our legislators listen to voters who speak up and follow up with a ballot.
See ya on the water and I'll type more on this later...

[Capin' Dan]

Wow I owe a lot of people a lot of money or I guess I'm just a criminal. I'm not one to ask but rarely am one to turn it down. A routine fishing trip out on the big blue can and does usually tend to cost over a hundred bucks. I can tell you from the past if it isn't offered than a trip in the future isn't usually offered either. More than once when I have refused to take money because of a slow day or what ever when I got in my truck there would be a 20 or two laying in the seat. Guys don't let this post stop you from posting up on open seats we maybe shouldn't right out ask for it but it should be something that we all do when we get invited on a trip. My goal when I go with someone is to ensure that the owner of the boat isn't out any money as he already has the upkeep of the boat. Sometimes I trade trips then it is a different story. I think that the coast gaurd and state troopers have enough to keep themselves busy with out harassing innocent law abiding citizens. I know many guides and charters really hate this forum and other forums like it. It has really cut into their business. Some guides and charters have learned to embrace the forums and I think benifited from them.

Ray and others whom offer open seats keep up the good work. I know once Sea Swan is sea worthy again I will be posting up for open seats.

I saw this sign on a boat one day.

"This boat runs on gas NOT thanks."

Dan!

[ 04-29-2003, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: Capin' Dan ]

[WildHawg]

Very well said Dan. It is gas, not thanks, that run our boats. Thanks is very good however :grin: .
The Coast Guard has got alot more to worry about than us guys who "forcefill" the gas tanks of our friends who are kind enough to offer to takes us out on the Big Blue (or shouls I say GREEN).
I can see the standoff at the filling station now--
"Back up Coppers, or I'll light this match and take us all out!!
Go Ray, GO!!! And one day, when the fishing aint so great, your ready to pack it in--just make one more pass, and catch one for the 'Hawger!!
You'll never take me alive Coppers [img]graemlins/berry.gif[/img] !!! POOF!!!!!!!!

[Mr. Fisherman]

O.K., a moment to reflect... :smile:
I used to work as a volunteer and later as an employee of an organization that offered back country excursions to handicapped or, disabled if you will, individuals. What we provided was "Common adventure trips" This was a non-profit entity and vehicles and gear were supplemented by donations, fundraisers and by grants. When you signed up for a trip it was boldly stated up front that ALL expenses are EVENLY SPLIT. You are also liable for your own personal welfare and care.
For the half dozen years that I contributed to this program we never had an issue. It was a great experience and I would do it again in a second.
So the point I am making is, if you accept an open seat on my boat know up front that it is a common adventure trip and that sharing expenses is o.k.
I have had folks go without volunteering and that is o.k. But I don't think I went out of my way to take them again. I have been given rides in the past and have been turned down contributions. I have also been unable to volunteer funds for trips in the past but I was always up front about it. Some times it was o.k., some times I stayed home but those who took me when I couldn't afford a trip out are one by one getting boat napped and taken fishing on my tub.
I don't believe anyone should charge a set fee for a trip in order to make money. That is guiding and should be dealt with accordingly but sharing expenses among friends or even acquaintances should be perfectly acceptable in the eye of the law :smile: . If it isn't something is broke and needs to be fixed . Can I get an Amen [img]graemlins/program.gif[/img] ?
O.K., off the bow of my boat now...
Let's go fishing .
I don't even have an ashtray since I quit smoking. Boy is Capin Dan' happy... :grin:

[Hummingbird]

Mr.Fisherman,
Do you still need a crew for Thurs. or Friday. Will Work For Food. [img]graemlins/stupid.gif[/img] Give me a call at home and let me know the details. Sounds like fun. Tight Lines ,Tom