MARINE SAFETY......Talk with Ken

Marty · 03-17-2003, 12:41 PM

I thought this thread may be beneficial to a number of boaters who may have questions for the Coast Guard that is relating to their fishing/boating/safety needs. Ken Lawrenson is a new member to Ifish and works for the U.S. Coast Guard Safety Office in Portland, and he has kindly agreed to monitor this thread and answer any questions to the best of his ability. So if you have any questions, here is your chance to get it from a real 'salty dog'. If you don't have any questions then a welcome would suffice.......... BUT since I was the one to start this topic, I will ask the first queston.

1. Can you give us 'Salty dogs' the rescue time frame on an EPIRB distress call. Lets assume that my boat has rapidly sunk 40 miles off the coast between Depoe and Newport. How long do I need to tred water before I am found.??

2. Do you have information that pertains to hypothermia and its relationship to how long a person in the water is going to survive with only a life jacket and what the difference would be with a survival suit.

Thanks Ken for you time and info.

Marty

fish assassin · 03-17-2003, 12:48 PM

Hi Ken,

Let me be the first to welcome you to Salty Dogs!! I have the greatest
of respect for what you guys do for us. 'Course, having a son stationed
at the airbase in Warrenton wouldn't bias me or anything!

-assAssin-

puffins crew · 03-17-2003, 01:40 PM

Hello Ken,

Welcome aboard.

Do we need to have our boats inspected by the USCG? And is there any charge for this service?
What are the requirements befor we go and play on Big Blue.

Is there a list of required items you could post?

My regular skipper is off playing in Mexico, and I would like to get a jump on prepairing his boat for the upcomming season.

Peace, Tom

kenai · 03-17-2003, 01:53 PM

Can you tell us anything about the DSC radio features, specifically is the emergency feature active here on the Or. coast? When I spoke to CG Portland last yr. I was told it was not in place yet. If it is working, how can I perform a test without scrambling SAR? Thanks, and welcome aboard it sure is good to have the best and brightest here with us.

03-17-2003, 01:59 PM

Welcome aboard Ken

Don't take it personal when I refer to the Coast Guard as "Water *****" It doesn't necessarily mean what it sounds like. I have the utmost respect for the tough and dangerous job the Coast Guard does but when you are forced to do things that are nessasary in the Flordia Keys (checking for life jackets with guns out) and have to enforce rules that were made in Washington DC that don't fit SE Alaska it is hard to understand. I have several friends that are retired Coast Guard (Base Ketchikan and Juneau) and one was the one that got me on the "Water ****" name.

Again, Welcome aboard!

OceanBlue · 03-17-2003, 02:01 PM

Hi Ken! I think you're going to be barraged with questions for a while, so I'll just sit back and be a sponge for a bit before I launch in on mine. So for now, I'll just say WELCOME!

Glad you're here with us [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Ken, USCG FV Safety · 03-17-2003, 02:12 PM

Good Afternoon,

My name is Ken Lawrenson, I am the Commercial Fishing Vessel Safety Coordinator at the Coast Guard's Marine Safety Office in Portland. I am a civilian employee of the Coast Guard, although I was on active duty for about 10 years. My territory includes the Oregon and SW Washington coasts, from Brookings in the South to Westport in the North. I have been here for nearly 11 years, and I enjoy working with the commercial industry.

My duties include vessel examination, training both Coastguardsmen and commercial mariners, outreach and marketing the Coast Guard's safety message, and participating in vessel casualty investigations. Along the way, I've picked up a few things that will make sense to any mariner concerned about safety afloat. I was asked by Marty Stott to reply to some questions via your bulletin board.

My intent is to address general safety and survival issues, and to make lots of referrals when I'm not the best person to respond to a question.

I must admit to some trepidation given the active, nearly real-time nature of this forum. I would like to begin by begging your patience and understanding. With our recent move to the Dept of Homeland Security, we are stretched in many different, competing directions. I also travel quite a bit, so my participation may appear erratic (since it will be). If you have a question that can't wait, I encourage you to contact your local Coast Guard Station. If you can afford a bit of a wait, then perhaps this forum will work well. If you have an issue that may not be of interest to the entire group, I'd encourage you to give me a call on the telephone... I can talk alot faster than I type.

Without further ado, on to Marty's questions:

EPIRBs... anyone going more than a few miles offshore should have one of these devices. If you do go offshore and you don't know what a 406 MHz EPIRB is, then here's your study assignment. Go to http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov and start reading. In my experience with the cold waters of the Pacific NW, you have three friends in an emergency: a reliable survival suit, a working 406 MHz EPIRB, and anything floating that gets your body out of the water. Your EPIRB is your best distress signal, a 24/7 all-weather maritime 911 call.

Marty asks how long it takes... In the 13th CG District (WA & OR), approx. 90% of EPIRB activations are handled by a geostationary satellite, and passed to the Rescue Coordination Center in Seattle as an "unlocated first alert." What this means is that the Coast Guard will generally know about your transmission within 2-3 minutes. What we may NOT know at this time is your location. The position of the EPIRB will be developed by a polar-orbiting satellite, and generally takes between 20 to 45 minutes at our latitude. But the good news is this: if you have properly registered your EPIRB and kept that info current, we will hopefully be on the phone with your loved ones in about ten minutes. This is a very good reason to make sure that you leave a float plan with your contact. They need to know where you were going.

So if you're off Stonewall Bank, and done everything you're supposed to do ashore, then we should know your distress situation fairly rapidly. As far as treading water, the Coast Guard's mandated standard for having a SAR resource to a point offshore is two-hours (we usually are quite a bit ahead of that!). The helo sited at the Newport Airfac will take generally 20 to 30 minutes to get airborne from the first call to launch. The HH65 flies about 120 knots, so the bottom line is that you're going to need to be either out of the water (in some survival craft) or wearing a survival suit.

I strongly suggest that y'all go to the SARSAT website I listed above and take a few minutes to learn the other benefits of the system.

Now for the survival suit question... can you say "hypothermia kills?" Immersing the human body in coldwater causes a heat loss that is generally 25 to 30 times faster than exposure to air at the same temperature. It is even faster when the person is moving the water next to the skin, like when swimming or treading water.

A quick remark about drown-proofing: DON'T. Wear a PFD before going into the water, so that if you do get wet, you can assume the HELP position. The Heat Escape Lessening Posture is only effective when wearing a PFD. You tuck your legs into a tuck, knees to chest, arms cranked against your sides. The idea is to protect the high heatloss areas of your body: the head, neck, sides of the chest, and groin. The HELP position can extend your survival two or three times compared to that of just floating vertically.

Your body reacts to coldwater according to ancient genetic instinct buried deep within the reptilian part of your brain. It stops bloodflow nearly immediately to the skin and extremities, meaning your fingers. Better do anything requiring manual dexterity right off. Next are your major muscle groups, meaning your ability to swim. In fact, a major recent study out of Canada, at http://www.tc.gc.ca/MarineSafety/Tp/...2/TP13822E.pdf , illustrates that most "hypothermia" victims die within the first 30-minutes from cold shock effects and/or failure to swim, rather than heat loss at the body core.

So, there's your two homework assignments... reading the EPIRB webpage, and at least the summary of the Canadian report. BTW, if you really want to try to attach a definite time in minutes to your survival in coldwater, the report has a number of different tables, and the results vary from 20 minutes to several hours.

For me, it's all academic. I'm not going anywhere without my three friends.

DriftR · 03-17-2003, 02:37 PM

Ken,
Welcome.
Your information and input is greatly appreciated. Looking forward to your future posts.

WP · 03-17-2003, 02:45 PM

welcome aboard Ken! You will be a welcpme resource for many of us...greatly appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge and experience.
WP

edsr · 03-17-2003, 03:30 PM

Welcome Ken,

You answered some questions I needed to know, didn't know I needed to know, and didn't know who to ask, if that makes any sense. Good information on the sites you mentioned, thank you.

edsr

skein · 03-17-2003, 03:31 PM

Welcome, Ken, and thanks for the information. You will find some very avid and interested readers in this audience - for sure. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Do you ever get a day off to go out on the Big Tub just to play? My guess is you could have your choice of rides with this bunch. :grin:

Skein

Master Baiter · 03-17-2003, 03:39 PM

Welcome aboard Ken!

Life Jackets: There seem to be so many different types out there when shopping. Buckle, zip, head rights, float coats, ratings, etc, so much to evalute collectively. What are the most essential feature to look for in an adult vest? What about a childs vest? Are float coats just as effective as a true PFD? What about the inflatables, do they stay inflated or can the air charge possibly wear down as your situation persists?

Thank You,

Thomas

corrirod · 03-17-2003, 04:38 PM

Great to have you onboard Ken!

I hope you'll make one of our Salty Dog TA meetings?

Fishplay · 03-17-2003, 04:41 PM

Welcome aboard Ken. Thanks for your experienced input.

Orca · 03-17-2003, 05:58 PM

Ken, welcome aboard, and thanks for the help (now and in the future) you give to all of us.

I have heard that due to the number of false EPIRB activations, the CG will not respond to an activation unless they first receive a MayDay from the vessel, or they are able to contact the person listed on the EPIRB documentation, verify that the vessel is in use in the activation area, and can not hail the vessel. If I go down without a MayDay, activate my EPIRB, and my wife is out shopping at Meier & Frank, am I toast?

seasquid · 03-17-2003, 08:20 PM

Welcome Ken...

Hey Dogs, I have always thought about purchasing an EPIRB, but I really don't have the cash. However, I did find this site about manual EPIRBS that seem more affordable. I found a site a while back that also rents them by the week -- I wish I could figure out where it was.

Anyway, here is a link...

http://www.sartech.com/

once in the site, click on EPIRBS in the upper left corner.

Anybody with experience or thoughts -- please share.

ss

Ken, USCG FV Safety · 03-18-2003, 03:37 PM

A quick reply to a few of the questions y'all raised:

"Master Baiter" asked about PFDs. A few good sites... http://www.boatoregon.com/Safety/Lifejacket.html and the CG's Boating Safety Circulars at http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/advisories.htm .

The absolute best PFD is the one that you're wearing when you go into the water. That said, PFDs cover the spectrum, from wonderful inflatables with all sorts of bells and whistles, to the most basic child's Type III silk-screened with Goofy in 12 colors. I suggest the two most important factors are fit/wearability and function. First, if it isn't comfortable, chances are it won't be worn when it should be (which should be almost always). I would try it on the person who you intend to wear it before it leaves the store in your shooping bag. Can they move around in it, can they sit comfortably in it, can it fit over a coat or raingear? Does it look like it would take a Houdini to figure out all the snaps, straps and buckles? Second, what do you want it to do? Function is important... do you want a Type I kapok for the worst-case scenario, where regardless of how well (or poorly) you've treated it in stowage, you can take it out and it will keep you afloat? Do you want a PFD that you can wear continuously, such as an inflatable, but that will require you to take care of it and give it regular love and feeding? Again, rather than just buy the cheapest thing you can get your hands on, try several types in a swimming pool. They all behave differently. For example, will that Stearns Type III vest let you assume an effective HELP position, or will it tend to roll your particular bodyform over, therefore creating more work on your part? There are only two ways you'll find out: try it beforehand in a controlled manner, or, you can be surprised.

A quick note on Coast Guard Approval... CG Approval only indicates that the device was tested against a published minimum standard, and that it met the standard. I have seen some real crap out there with a CG Approval. On the other hand, the best inflatable I've seen isn't CG Approved, and never will be, since the owner of "XYZ" inflatables thinks that compliance will degrade his product. Read up on the product, try it on, get it into a swimming pool, be comfortable with it, and take care of it. BTW, if you do go with a non-CG approved PFD to wear all the time, remember that you must still have a CG Approved PFD on the boat with you.

As for kid PFDs, think about whether they will wiggle out of them in the water, or if it will ride up during a fall. A crotch strap is critical for little kids. I'd also suggest a PFD that has a large enough collar that it provides some protection from spray, and has a sturdy loop or handle sewn in the top so that you can lift them from the water. This is the only PFD I'll let my kids put on, each of them has their own, and they practice in the pool each Spring...

Float coats are good in that they provide some warmth, both in and out of the water, and will be worn. The potentially bad thing is that they will support you inconsistently. That is why they are typically labeled as Type III... they float well but may not keep you face up. You really need to try it in the water.

Inflatable PFDs are wonderful, but with a BIG if. If you take care of them. If you treat them well. If you follow the manufacturer's guidance on testing and maintenance. All the majors use the same air bladders that are approved by the FAA for aviation use, so they pretty much don't leak. But if they do, fear not, since they all have an oral inflation tube that allows you to top them off.

Good questions, Thomas. More later, folks.

Ken, USCG FV Safety · 03-18-2003, 03:44 PM

By the way, of course there is nothing wrong with the Stearns vest, I only use it as an example because it doesn't work for ME when I do the HELP position. I know, because I've tried it.

I have to remember not to use any specific Brand/Manufacturer/Model/Slogan names, as I get into trouble for "endorsement" of products. Pretty much, I think we all know garbage when we see it. If you want to hypothetically discuss specifics, I guess you'll have to talk to me on the phone. Hypothetically.

Thanks! Anyway, it's just my opinion.

corrirod · 03-18-2003, 03:52 PM

Great info, thanks for taking the time Ken! [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Master Baiter · 03-18-2003, 04:12 PM

Thanks you very much Ken!

Thomas

[ 03-18-2003, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Master Baiter ]

Birdnest · 03-18-2003, 05:09 PM

Ken,

Welcome!!! I wanted to thank you for taking time to visit our board. I am pretty sure you guys are only getting busier.

Birdnest

fishwhenican · 03-18-2003, 06:25 PM

Ken, Thank you for taking the time to answer some of our questions.

I found this info of interest, in regard to a more reasonable priced EPIRB http://www.equipped.com/plb_legal.htm
http://www.acrelectronics.com/PLB/406plb1.html
personal locater beacons (PLB) 406 mhz., sales starting July 1st,2003

I was also looking for survival time estimates for wetsuit and drysuit useage. The only thing I have come up with so far is an estimate of 50 hours for a wetsuited person in 10 deg celsius water or 10-50 hours in 4 deg. celsius.

Also I was interested in the best flares for daytime useage vs nighttime useage.

If someone calls in with a report of no show (past time to return as noted on float plan) what is the the Coast Guard procedure? ie: boat sinks 30 miles offshore, no mayday, victim can't contact anyone via handheld VHF, no EPIRB, survival suits are on. Apprx. response time?

[ 03-18-2003, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: fishwhenican ]

Bait O' Eggs · 03-18-2003, 06:51 PM

I bought flares both hand held and shootable when I bought my boat. They expired, Then I bought new ones and crammed them in the orange container with the expired ones thinking if I needed flares there is a pretty good chance the expired ones would shoot just as well as the new ones. At least I would rather have them than not if I needed help.

Now the second batch has expired and I need to buy another round. :depressed: I dont have room for the third set, and plan on getting rid of the first batch and keep the expired second batch and a new third batch. How do I dipose of them? can I give them to the coast guard, do they want them for training??

Can I shoot them off on the 4th of July?

I would like a little practive, should I ever need to shoot them. :whazzup:

And welcome :smile:

[ 03-18-2003, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Bait O' Eggs ]

Mark Mc · 03-18-2003, 07:46 PM

Hi Ken, spoke with you a few weeks ago. Thanks for the help here. Can you elaborate on the implementation of DSC, both when and where? According to this CG site it's several years away, and not all stations will have it:

web page
It lists Portland, North Bend & Astoria for '04, Charlseton for '05. Is this Charleston SC or OR? Will the Newport / Depoe Bay area be covered through some sort of repeater?

Then here
web page

it says in 2.2.5.3 Public Education: "Because Coast Guard shore units will not be equipped with VHF-FM DSC equipment until the completion of the NDRSMP in 2006, the maritime public should be advised not to use VHF-FM DSC for distress alerting purposes until the Coast Guard is equipped with DSC and the United States declares GMDSS Sea Area A1 operational."

Does this mean that the whole system has to be in place before service / coverage will work? Is it a false impression for people to think these DSC radios will do them any additional good before 2006?

Thanks again! Mark McCulloch

Gregotis98 · 03-18-2003, 09:09 PM

I'm going for it. Survival suit and epirb, as much time as I spend out there it's worth it. I'm even thinking of an overnighter this year just for fun and would feel safer. I think just the piece of mind will help me some and help friends that are a little leary of the ocean. As far as the survival suit goes, the buddies are on their own, I'm going to give them advice now, and not spring it on them too late in the season. One other thing that I'm going to buy is a nice ditch bag for all the extras, flares wont do much good if they're still in the boat that's upsidedown.

I still don't know how to do the link thing, but Landfall Navigation has a large safety section on their website.

OceanBlue · 03-18-2003, 10:00 PM

Gregotis,

You've got mail! :grin:

corrirod · 03-18-2003, 11:13 PM

I'm with you Gregotis, I just bought an immersion suit based on this thread and saving for the EPIRB!

Mr. Fisherman · 03-18-2003, 11:38 PM

Ken, welcome and thank you for taking the time here to help us have a better understanding of safety.

Roy, The documentation that came with my new locator package recomended donating old flares to the USCG or Coast Guarg Auxillary for training use. If you want the practice it was recomended to participate in a training class and donate them to that class

. I read somewhere that discharging a flare without an actual distress is against the law :shocked: so the 4th of July is likely out unless you can afford the fine.
My wife and I are interested in taking a course. If you know of one let me know. I also have a package of old flares that I might be willing to donate.

[ 03-19-2003, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Fisherman ]

Marty · 03-19-2003, 08:17 AM

More info on Epirbs and survival suits. My West Marine catalog says that a 406 Epirb takes approx. 46 minutes until notification is recieved by the coast guard, and will calculate the sending unit within a 2 nm radius. The GPS/Epirb takes 4 minutes for notification and is accurate to within .067nm. That said, if I am going to spend that kind of money, the GPS/Epirb combo seems like a no brainer, 40 extra minutes in the water is a long time. I found a web site that sells the Pains Wessex, cat. 2 (manual deployment), GPS/Epirb for $799.95. Something else you should know. The lithium battery's for all 406 Epirbs are expensive. They have to be replaced every 5 years and cost $200.00 to $250.00. For your info, Englund Marine has Stearns survival suits for $285.00 and you can get them a little cheaper, $260.00 online thru Hamilton Marine catalog.

Dang........these tuna can get expensive!!!!

Great to see everybody at the Newport party.

Marty

seasquid · 03-19-2003, 08:58 AM

I just did some checking with Englund Marine and ACR Electronics (Fishwhenican has the link) -- the Mini B EPIRBS are being discontinued and the Magnum B appears to be next...they are being replaced with the Personal 406, which should have FCC approval in July.

These are manual EPIRBS, and likely about 40-50% cheaper than the automatic EPIRBS.

ss

Mr. Fisherman · 03-19-2003, 10:05 AM

I checked into the personal EPIRB. They are more expensive. The unit I priced wasn't yet available but it is selling for just over $1000. They are being used by adventurers abroad with very good success. Since these units are also used on land it will take time to get the system in place to deal with them.
The one I looked at (sorry, don't have the name or link right here) was about the size of a cell phone. Being personal means you can use it and be located wherever you wander. Oh Roy, you could use it to get rescued next time you wander into Idaho...
[img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

corrirod · 03-19-2003, 10:46 AM

The one thing I see as a disadvantage on the personals is the activated lifespan of only 24 hours vs. 48 hours for the larger units. I can understand the benefit of having a smaller unit for other activities besides boating but if I'm 50 miles offshore, I think I want that extra days worth of battery life just in case!

skein · 03-19-2003, 06:38 PM

We have factored in Stearns suits for both of us - we tried them on at Eglund's last Saturday before we came out to Popeye's SHIP. They are really comfortable - both physically and mentally.

It's a long walk home, or a long, long wait for a ride.

Skein

CAPT KUJO · 03-21-2003, 08:40 PM

Don't be fooled by so called survival suits. As under 46 CFR they not not required to be water proof. That's right, they allow for leakage. Just as with a PFD it increases the chances of rescuers finding you dead body. Your best protection in the North Pacific is a non-breathable dry suit with proper thermal exporsure undergarmets. I will be offering classes later in April on "Cold Water Survival"/ "Dry Suit Techniques". Is this 8 hour course you will get first hand experience and use, wet suits, dry suits (both breathable and non), survival suits, and immersion suits, as well as information regarding survival times in different equipment and thermal exposure protection.. This course is certified by Oregon Boards of Public Safety Standards and Training, and National YMCA. I have personlly spent 16 1/2 hours in 42 degree water during a 32 mile swim from the Burnside bridge in Portland to the County docks in St. Helens. For you skeptics, It's documented, on TV file footage available upon request. for additional information on cold water exposure write me at kim@usia.com

CAPT KUJO

Pilar · 03-22-2003, 07:22 AM

Hi Ken. Your input here is greatly appreciated as you can see. The original intent of forming this group was to promote safe fishing offshore. I have to add a fourth thing to your list, a buddy in another boat.

The survival suit is a huge expense .... until you think about it in different terms. What are you willing to spend for a halibut trip or a new graphite rod and saltwater reel. About the same I figure.

Thinking about it like that, I have to admit to making a suit my next priority for equipment.

KJ makes a good point and what do you think, Ken about using a dry suit, which could also be used for recreational diving instead of a Mustang survival suit. Having a multipupose expensive suit makes alot of sense to me.

[ 03-22-2003, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Pilar ]

skein · 03-22-2003, 07:50 AM

I agree with Pilar, the buddy in the other boat is insurance you shouldn't be without. He should know your location every so often as you should know his. Not speaking from experience here, just common sense.

As for the dry suit vs the Stearns or Mustang suit, I don't see a dry suit as realistic to wear as a boat suit. My wife has a dry suit for diving (I still get to use the cold, clammy wet suit) and I can't see her wearing that all day - especially while wrestling fish after fish to the boat. The Stearns, I think, is a different story.

Our plans are to wear our Stearns/Mustang suits, and carry our zodiac to use to get us out of the water. The Zed will have a ditch bag, radio, and flares, with the idea of surviving utill our buddy boat gets there.

Our real plan is not to sink, and with that in mind we will work to make sure the boat is ocean-ready and we evaluate each trip - before we go out and while we're out there.

Just my .02 cents (well, more like a dime or so.)

Skein

CAPT KUJO · 03-22-2003, 09:14 AM

I'm really impressed with the responses on this thread. Safety is SO IMPORTANT! With that said, I would be willing to offer to ANY salty dog interested in "true ocean survival", the opportunity to purchase "dry suits" specifically build for our application (fishing the big pond).
Price starts at $299.00, will be factory direct, exceeding all United States Coast Guard regulations in 46 CFR requirements for survival suits, and with dry suit and cold water exposure training. Suits build in Oregon, life time warranty covering seam construction. If you are not a stock size, I personally will invite you to the factory to be custom fit (additional charge). CAn also fit children and women. I won't post this anymore nor any where else. Just anyone concerned enough about water safety, to read this thread and respond, I feel compelled to assist with their personal safety. There is alot of truth in the statement "in a dry suit, everyday is summer". especially floating 20 miles off the Oregon Coast after been blown off the deck of a burning boat waiting in 50 degree water for the CG (and I thank God, they found me, alive,warm and dry)!!!

CAPT KUJO

[ 03-22-2003, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: CAPT KUJO ]

03-22-2003, 09:33 AM

My survival suit had mits and I couldn't work with my hands with it on. My dry suit is a Uni Suit without gloves and it would work better if one had to use your hands. Both were made out of the same thickness of neoprene. I wish I didn't give my survival suit away when I moved south.

Mark Mc · 03-22-2003, 03:28 PM

Hey Kim, I would like to hear more of what you'd have to say about undergarments. I do like my Stearns full body exposure suit, and I know that what I wear under it will affect survival. (Never thought I would post this): I wear polypropylene long underwear & socks, stuff that will stay warm when wet & wick away moisture when getting hot. I know there is better out there; looked into some stuff made in Arcata (Klickitat??), the kayak gear company. What sort of high-tech stuff do you suggest? Also, any good socks/booties that would slip into slightly oversized fishing boots?
Thanks..........Mark

CAPT KUJO · 03-23-2003, 01:13 PM

Since you asked here's the skinny. This research has been conducted for the U.S. Government for "prolonged exposure" of U.S. Special Operations Divers and Diver delivery vehicles.
First thing is identify the environment. For us, 50 degree water temp(ave)and 50 to 70 degree air temp. Next is the suit you are considering. Your choices..1 non-breathable shell, 2 breathable shell, 3 neoprene...anything else you consider for "survival" which does not exclude all the water....you subject yourself to a 50 degree "in water" environment. Neoprene comes in two types as they produce both wet suits and dry suits out of neoprene. Advantage is if your neoprene is compromised "it sill has the abilty to restrict the dissapation of heat from your body" as your body heat warms the layer of water between your skin and neoprene suit (that's why they work better if they fit good <not too snug&gt

. But you are heating a layer of water. Drysuits, shell suits specifically, weather breathable or non breathable shells, provide "NO THERMAL PROTECTION". They depend soley on what you're wearing under it. I currently produce 95% of all thermal undergarments wore under the dry suits used by the U.S. Coast Gaurd. There are a couple of principles you must adhere to, as they're trained to. 1 identify fabrics which love water and those that hate it.
Water loves COTTON and loves KNIT. Water hates wool and synthetic fleeces. A suprise to most is that poly-pro, nylon, Thinsulite and Thermolite are neutral and water will go or stay, depending on what ever else is in there. Next remember when in a dry suit you will perspire and you must "direct" this moisture for survival. For example if you wear a cotton t-shirt against your skin under a dry suit, your sweat will stay in that t-shirt no matter what you do. Same with knit collars and cuffs. When you are then in the water in a "survival situation", your body now has this wet shirt against it and when you start to chill, you chill fast because you are trying to heat "water" instead of air. You should ALWAYS wear "synthetic fleeces" or wool (if you can stand it) against your skin. What happens is when you perspire, the moisture hits that fleece and can't get away from it fast enough and is attracted to the inner plastics of the dry suit shell and the cotton/nylon bi-blend shell. When you unzip a properly working dry suit, you will see a layer of moisure on the outer shell of your undergarment but when you unzip your garment, you will be "bone dry". Your survival time increases 10 fold, when you're heating a "layer of air" rather than a "layer of water".

This is part of the lecture topic in my Cold Water Survival Class. Next you get properly dressed and move you to "cold water acclimation".

Thank for the opportunity to respond to your question.

CAPT KUJO

CAPT KUJO · 03-23-2003, 01:17 PM

Recommendation....for you Mark....no more than Exotherm II (or equal) no less than Exotherm I (or equal), I can send you specific thermal recommendations. You can get additional information from my site at http://www.usia.com

CAPT KUJO

Mark Mc · 01-29-2004, 08:06 PM

This is a good thread to resurrect. Especially considering all the survival talk lately.

ttt!

KeyWest · 01-29-2004, 08:18 PM

Kujo - does that offer still stand?

CAPT KUJO · 01-30-2004, 10:30 AM

Keywest - As long as I'm alive

CAPT KUJO

CAPT KUJO · 01-30-2004, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CAPT KUJO:
Keywest - As long as I'm alive

CAPT KUJO

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Sorry, Guess I was confused on what the offer was that would stand. The offer you were refering to was BEFORE the ROCKITWEAR was developed. The difference is the ROCKITWEAR has: HD Boots, suspenders, wrist wraps, 1000 denier Cordura on the Butt and Thighs. The original suit offer was a water ski grade suit without any of the above features and would not be suitable for "Fishing"
It would be lighteer, no Cordura on the wear areas and has ankle seals for your feet and no suspenders. Too much BS to get on and off and not enough protection in the high ware areas. For the Fishing application you want the ROCKITWEAR . Sorry for the confusion