If true this could change everything.

[Got One!]

I've been following an inventor, Jim Hunt for about a year now, and he's come up with a process to create a plazma induced (sort of like an arc from an arc welder) way to create hydrogen. A 6 gallon tank of water can fuel a car for 1 year, then you have to replace the carbon rods (about $200) He estimated a "kit" is going to cost in the ballpark of $2000 per car.

Hopefully this is true, because if it is, fossil fuels are dead. In a down turn his initial investors pulled out and he has pulled his youtube vids out.....not sure what this means. Indications previous to this pullout on his blogs show he was getting threats.

http://www.galesburg.com/news/x43068...uck?view=print

[Chrome Bumper]

Nothing new here, an electric car.
Electricity is generated by fossil fuel. The most common fossil fuel used to generate electricity is coal (49%). The second most common source in America is natural gas (21%), the third is nuclear (19%).

These three fuels generate 80% of the energy used by electric cars, and converting this energy into hydrogen and running through an internal combustion engine is very inefficient, a waste of fuel.

This plan is a very inefficient way to use coal, gas and nuclear energy to operate motor vehicles.

There are no free lunches.

His system is powered by fossil fuels and nuclear energy. A small fraction is produced by fish killing hydro.

[Thumper]

By the best available technology it costs $9 to generate the hydrogen equivalent to the energy in one gallon of gas.

Nice thought though....

[jfa686]

CB forgot to mention solar and wind as energy sources. I frequent a cabin completely off the grid with ALL of the appliances and goodies ran on renewable energy accumulated and stored thru solar and wind. but whats new. I guess we are doomed

[Joe C]

Originally Posted by jfa686

CB forgot to mention solar and wind as energy sources. I frequent a cabin completely off the grid with ALL of the appliances and goodies ran on renewable energy accumulated and stored thru solar and wind. but whats new. I guess we are doomed

Nice!

Sounds like the danish have a great plan to subsidize electric cars for citizens. At first it seems a little odd, but one of the biggest issues with their push for renewable energy is that they don't have storage means. For example, at night time the wind is still moving their wind turbines yet nobody is using power. the thought is that by having the electric cars plugged in over night, they act as storage for all that electricity. I think they were talking about having the cars plugged back in during the day and using their electricity to supplement and shortcomings.

i need to find an article on it, they were just talking about the concept on the radio.

[Joe C]

Originally Posted by Chrome Bumper

These three fuels generate 80% of the energy used by electric cars, and converting this energy into hydrogen and running through an internal combustion engine is very inefficient, a waste of fuel.

This plan is a very inefficient way to use coal, gas and nuclear energy to operate motor vehicles..

from an efficiency standpoint that makes sense, but if the goal is to reduce carbon emmissions, it may be effective. I'd like to see what kind of studies have been done showing the carbon emmissions from millions of seperate point sources (cars) as compared to centralized sources like power plants, which have more advanced carbon scrubbing filters and output techniques.

[bad habit]

for sure change has alot of old school tycoons shivering.. it is a rare moment when a new idea is able to bipass any cost issues before arriving to its full potential.. for instance residential solar panel energy options costs are difficult for most to afford and it is still a successful much invested market .. now nano engineered solar panel technology is about 2 or already has hit the market, and its sooooo much more affordable to the average homeowner.

[wthr4d]

Originally Posted by Chrome Bumper

This plan is a very inefficient way to use coal, gas and nuclear energy to operate motor vehicles.

There are no free lunches.

His system is powered by fossil fuels and nuclear energy. A small fraction is produced by fish killing hydro.

So what if this technology was used to power a hybrid electric vehicle? that would take it mostly off the grid and it suddenly becomes a very useful inovation!

Imagine it... a hydrogen powered car that creates its own hydrogen, from water, through electricity that the motor generates and stores in batteries.

Paul

[Chrome Bumper]

Originally Posted by wthr4d

So what if this technology was used to power a hybrid electric vehicle? that would take it mostly off the grid and it suddenly becomes a very useful inovation!

Imagine it... a hydrogen powered car that creates its own hydrogen, from water, through electricity that the motor generates and stores in batteries.

Paul

Are you serious? The pepetual motion machine has been refined for many centuries and is still not productive. Turning lead to gold is still iffy too.

Energy in equals energy out. Still no free lunch has been discovered.



My mistake, fossil fuels, nuclear and hydro produce 96.9% of our power now, not 90%, good luck building a car off line, let alone powering it:

[wthr4d]

perhaps you misread my post. I was talking about using the device that frees the hydrogen to supply fuel to a hydrogen powered electric generator that would charge batteries for an electric powered vehicle. NOT perpetual motion, Water as fuel must still be put into the vehicle.

paul

[nehalemguy]

Might want to read this from todays USAToday.

"So far, hydrogen-powered cars are fuel for future thoughts."
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science...rs_N.htm?csp=1

[backlash442]

You'd be surprised at what type of alternative energy that are being worked on by inventors. Some of it pretty far out by people who are on the fringe of uh well being out there.

These are a few things that I have been told about personally:

Make it rain during Santa Ana winds to help put out fires. Although not an energy source. I was on the phone hearing this one so just...

Anti gravity device much like the skateboard in Back to the Future.

Desalinization Plant that runs on any hydro carbon that creates electricity as a by product. Have actually seen the plans and signed a NDA.

Non rechargeable non heat generating micro power source. Could be adapted to macro power source for cars and homes. Actually had a physicist look at early work on this project and was extremely excited. On shelf due to lack of funds and inventor not willing to share process (no patent).

Fuel additive that reduces emissions and fuel consumption. Non toxic and cost is dirt cheap. Have independent CARB cert. testing showing it works. Although more testing needs to be done including a cert. road test. I'm heavily involved in this project.

Oh and almost forgot; Time Machine.

People that invent this stuff are so far out there that the chances of their inventions coming to light are extremely low. There are more but I can't remember them all and much of it is in the relm of "beam me up Scotty". Paranoid of government conspiracy is putting it mildly from some of these guys so getting them to talk about their projects let alone showing them can be difficult. They not only believe in little green men but when traveling pay cash for everything so their whereabouts can't be traced. Seriously.

[Chrome Bumper]

Water is a combustion product, not a fuel.

[Half fast Toyn]

Im sure we will get over this hump... just like flight... just like space travel.

Seems to me, we should all have an array of solar panels on the roof of our homes. No fossil fuels should be used for electricity production. NONE!!!

[Chrome Bumper]

Originally Posted by Half fast Toyn

Im sure we will get over this hump... just like flight... just like space travel.

Seems to me, we should all have an array of solar panels on the roof of our homes. No fossil fuels should be used for electricity production. NONE!!!

Solar panels on roofs won't give you enough power to run the home, and won't produce power at night.

Air flight took 50 years from its development til common use. Space flight, after 50 years is no where near common.

It will take time and lots of money to go renewable. And it won't be pretty, there will be lots of ugly infrastructure, hazardous waste generation and degraded environments to fully develop it. It won't be all hemp and lavender.

No free lunches.

[Half fast Toyn]

Originally Posted by Chrome Bumper

Solar panels on roofs won't give you enough power to run the home, and won't produce power at night.

Air flight took 50 years from its development til common use. Space flight, after 50 years is no where near common.

It will take time and lots of money to go renewable. And it won't be pretty, there will be lots of ugly infrastructure, hazardous waste generation and degraded environments to fully develop it. It won't be all hemp and lavender.

No free lunches.

I beg to differ,

There are places that live off the grid like Slab City, Arizona, and remote area's of Montana, Wyoming, and Alaska. If you covered 75 percent of a 1000SF house with solar panels thats 3+ KWh's worth of power. all you would need is an inverter for conversion to 110v and battery storage for night use. I would go one step further in my conversion, Id replace all my interior lights with 12 volt florescent or incandesent bulbs. This would stop the inefficiency of the inverter for everyday lighting needs.
My camper has a 45 watt solar charging system and Ive stayed 5 days with no power issues.

Im so on the fence on just doing this on my house, not because of all the money Id save (estimated 20 years to pay for itself at todays energy costs) but to be different and see for myself. I spent 3 hours talking to the guys at the state fair last year and got the rundown. Can you say tax benifits? I bet the renewable energy section will be much larger this year.

Even if we couldnt produce all the electricity for industry with solar power, we still dont need to be burning fossil fuels to make electricity. Let Nuclear, hydro, and wind power make up for what solar cant do.

[Chrome Bumper]

You nraverage home uses 4-6 Kwhrs of power, so covering a 1,000 sq foot home won't cut it, especially in western Oregon plagued with clouds and shade producing trees and long dark winters.

I can camp with no power at all, but most people like running water, hot water, adequate lighting for occasional detail work, clothes dryers, Hvac, and are not interested in maintaining solar panels on their roof or toxic batteries. This doesn't even start to cover vehicle needs.

There is a reason renewables only provide 2.4% of electric power after 40 years of development.

Where do you want the new hydro dams?

[Lip Ripper]

If it ran and would get me from point A to point b, I don't care if it ran off bananna peels. Just as long as it was cheaper than $4.30 a gallon to fill my rigs, I'd buy it!

[Chrome Bumper]

Not cheaper than $4.30 a gallon.

[duckboy]

Dont Bother with a Time machine...

the key is based upon perception.

Is $100 too much to push your truck 1 mile up a 7% grade?

get out and push it yourself if you think it is.


All that carbon burned in industry (and to run our cars) took hundreds of millions of years to build up.


As the human body stores fat from excess food, the Earth stored energy as hydrocarbons.

Well, we are running a marathon in record time and there is only enough grub in the fridge to feed us for a short time.

[Got One!]

I'm thinking, the article wasn't read. Water is not the fuel, it is hydrogen that is produced by a high spectrum light source. This is a phenomenom seen in a lot of the Hangers in the AF, which occurs by some of their light sources, which i'm sure what got his wheels turning.

A 3 second burst of light (produced with electricity) powered the vehicle for a modest 15 minutes. That said there are several ways to achieve the light needed to transfer water into hydrogen, not the least of which is lightening, which is quiet easy to produce, and requires a piece of wire, a small rocket, or in the 1800 an invention was made that harnessed natural static electricity, the problem with that was they couldnt store or control it (perfect) for this application, thinking aside from cars.
there also exists Photobiological Water Splitting, and Photoelectrochemical Water Splitting, both slower but work.

The world is not flat....though the powers that be would kill you if you suggested otherwise at one time.

[Chrome Bumper]

GALESBURG —
...Although the test was short, Kniss said that was because the truck was not licensed to be on a street or highway with this type of engine. Most of the drive was in circles in a field across from Akvo Energy’s former location...

... providing fuel at virtually no cost....

... Non-radioactive carbon rods are another part of the system that Hunt said will power vehicles for up to 1 years on one fill up. ..


....Efforts to contact Hunt for this story were unsuccessful....

...Akvo Energy America is no longer in the building near the U.S. 67/U.S. 34 junction. According to Kniss, the company vacated the building about a week ago when investors unexpectedly pulled out of the venture. He said the company operated there for a time without water, lights or telephones. The company had 15 employees in November but only three when it left the building. Kniss said all but the final three employees left in December when the original investor pulled out. He said the remaining three only received one-half pay, beginning March 1 of this year, with a short period of no pay...

...Kniss said the investors were responsible for paying employees...

[wthr4d]

Originally Posted by Chrome Bumper

Solar panels on roofs won't give you enough power to run the home, and won't produce power at night.

Ill let the facts speak for themself.

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/oct2...7-10-22-03.asp

I know WSU was in this compettition and did very well. I realize these folks weer restricted by contest rules to 800SqFt but another 200 sqft of solar panels and house arent going to make much difference when you have enough left over to charge your electric car!

I did a feasability study with a local college based on this study and the prohibitive measure was retrofitting, they are using this concept on new construction plans.

Paul

[bad habit]

watched a congressional energy comitee meeting on cspan last night .t.boone pickens(oil man) was proposing his energy plan..he said he has a special compressor thats hooked up to the natura gas that he cooks and heats the house up.anyway he has a car that runs on n.gas, he refuels his car in his garage and it costs (in relative terms) $ 1.50 a gallon. and he pays for it when his bill arrives......in so many ways this is great.....hes proposing that all government vehicles be mandated to go n.gas...

[Chrome Bumper]

Those compressors are expensive and use lots of electricity. If any number of vehicles go to natural gas the cost of nat gas will spike, the supply is very limited and LNG to supplement is unpopular.

I know WSU was in this compettition and did very well. I realize these folks weer restricted by contest rules to 800SqFt but another 200 sqft of solar panels and house arent going to make much difference when you have enough left over to charge your electric car!

200 sq feet of panel at 3 watts per sq ft would give you the equivalent of less than ONE CUP OF GASOLINE PER DAY in energy. Of course in western Oregon, during the winter, under trees... mileage may vary.

[wthr4d]

well the rest of you can beat your heads against this ChromeBummer all you want but I for have had enough negativity and bad fact spreading.

Paul OUT!

[bad habit]

apperrantly they have located trillions of cubic sq ft of n.gas,on u.s soil ..how often do you imagine that compressor would get used?? once a day or once a week?? ....the infrastructure is almost completely in place .. not every u.s citizen is expected to do this it is only a part of the solution...to cut back on dependency of foreign oil.....700 billion a yr ,wow......how much you think one of those compressors cost? maybe the gov could give out vouchers like their doing for those who cant ' afford digital television conversion boxes ....lets say all gov vehicles and long haulers go n.gas and the president releases rainy day oil supply in small but calculated sufficient doses then throw in wind turbine energy which frees up even more n.gas that was being used 2 create energy and we have at least a chance... there are congressmen considering to adopt this plan,

[Rank Amateur]

Originally Posted by bad habit

apperrantly they have located trillions of cubic sq ft of n.gas,on u.s soil ..how often do you imagine that compressor would get used?? once a day or once a week?? ....the infrastructure is almost completely in place .. not every u.s citizen is expected to do this it is only a part of the solution...to cut back on dependency of foreign oil.....700 billion a yr ,wow......how much you think one of those compressors cost? maybe the gov could give out vouchers like their doing for those who cant ' afford digital television conversion boxes ....lets say all gov vehicles and long haulers go n.gas and the president releases rainy day oil supply in small but calculated sufficient doses then throw in wind turbine energy which frees up even more n.gas that was being used 2 create energy and we have at least a chance... there are congressmen considering to adopt this plan,

I investigated the natural gas cars after the gasoline prices went through the roof. First the only commercially available car is the Honda Civic GX, there are conversion kits available, but I was seeing mixed messages as to the legalities of these kits.

The home filling stations are problematic at best, first there is the expense, the little Phillstation that is being promoted with the Honda Civic is slow, only .4 gallon equivilent per hour. With a 8 gallon cylinder, you are looking at 20 hours refill time. These units are $4,000 uninstalled. The installer told me that the way to go is with a tried and tested compressor that has been out for years. It is $10,000 installed and fills at a rate of 1 gallon per hour. Remember, you are filling the cylinder to 3,600 psi.

The Honda Civic only will go a little over 200 miles on a full tank. This was fine for my application to use it mainly as a commuter car, but spending $35,000 for a comuter car is just a little unreasonable. You do get a $4,000 tax credit on the car, and $2,000 for the filling station from the Feds. The state offers $750 each on the car and fill station. This brings you down to $28,000. To recover the cost of the vehicle over time I calculated the cost of the gas, compressor maintainence costs, road mileage tax. You are getting up to around $2.40 a gallon equivilent, so there are some savings, but it turns into a long term recovery. Then there is the recent announcement that natural gas is goin up in price.

The bottom line is that new technology is probably just around the corner and I didn't what to get locked into an old technology with rising fuel costs and a long term recovery of expenses.

[Chrome Bumper]

Rank Amateur, more than one maker makes cars that run on compressed gas. Brasher's Auto auction had a '04 cavalier dual fuel, 70k miles, went for about 6200 as I recall, to rich for my blood. Did bid it up a bit, had a couple of tanks that looked like big scuba tanks behind the back seat. Left the auction with a 57 hundred dollar Malibu with the 2.2 ecotech gas engine, a good car for my kids to commute to college in, enough weight and crumple zone to walk away from most accidents, and 30-33 mpg for us.

The CNG cavalier had a range of about 200miles on gas, then it switched to gasoline, or just ran on gasoline. That was a year ago, prices have changed. Lately the flex fuel E85 cars are getting bid much higher than the straight gas cars, esp in California.

I can see if demand for nat gas goes way up, like if vehicles used it, the supply-demand curve would drive the nat gas price up negating cost savings, and increasing cost for other gas users.

Nat gas is CH4, a pretty simple molecule, it may be readily synthesized. Importing LNG may make the price less volatile. The more sources of energy you have to choose from will minimize prices.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_11439

[jfa686]

Originally Posted by Chrome Bumper

Lately the flex fuel E85 cars are getting bid much higher than the straight gas cars, esp in California.

not just cali. it's nationwide. gasser pickups are 10k back of book and hybrids/flex fuels are 3-5k over and that is wholesale only w/o any public bidders..

[Rank Amateur]

True Chrome Bumper, there are left over cars from the last decade when all the auto manufactures made a natural gas, variant. The demand just was not there for them and now only Honda is left. Maybe the car you saw was an after market add on or one of the last cavaliers they made?

[Rank Amateur]

Originally Posted by Chrome Bumper

Nat gas is CH4, a pretty simple molecule, it may be readily synthesized. Importing LNG may make the price less volatile. The more sources of energy you have to choose from will minimize prices.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_11439

We have tons of waste that could be used to make methane from, but again the will to do so and the profit margin is just too low at this time. We really could kill two birds with one stone with this kind of thinking though.

[Chrome Bumper]

Originally Posted by Rank Amateur

True Chrome Bumper, there are left over cars from the last decade when all the auto manufactures made a natural gas, variant. The demand just was not there for them and now only Honda is left. Maybe the car you saw was an after market add on or one of the last cavaliers they made?

It was Government surplus, probably only available new to fleet buyers, it was about an '05, Portland or Metro has a bunch of them, and a few filling stations too.

Wkipedia put home filling at $1.50 per gallon of gasoline equivalent. At 4+ bucks a gallon for gasoline at the pump that starts to look pretty good with 4 commutters in the house. Of course, if we had them guess who would be up all night plugging in gas lines into cars?


These guys sell them used, they aren't cheap
http://www.cngmotors.com/gal/cng/por...php?cat_id=278

[Rank Amateur]

Without dragging out my work sheets, I believe the raw gas was around $1.20 equivalent, mileage tax is around .40 a gallon and the tried and true compressor that the installer suggested has a current rebuild price of $800 every 4000 hours of use (I figured every 6 years). I didn't figure the cost of electricity running all night to pump up the cylinder. So, you can see it does add up and this isn't figuring in the cost of the pump station or the additional cost of the vehicle due to being cng. I wished it was a better scenario, I would be all over it. If the price of gas goes up much more though, it would pencil out quicker.

[Chrome Bumper]

Mileage tax!? what's that?

[Rank Amateur]

Originally Posted by Chrome Bumper

Mileage tax!? what's that?

Well, since you are filling up at home and not paying gas tax, you have to fill out a quarterly mileage report, you get to take a average miles per gallon rate, and then calculate how many gallons of gasoline equivalent you used and then pay the current tax rates, I think .22 state and .18 fed. You didn't think you got out of paying taxes did you???

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

http://www.lavalnews.ca/articles/TLN...ver161403.html

[Rank Amateur]

Originally Posted by *** Clerk

http://www.lavalnews.ca/articles/TLN...ver161403.html

I'll take one!

[Chrome Bumper]

Originally Posted by Rank Amateur

Well, since you are filling up at home and not paying gas tax, you have to fill out a quarterly mileage report, you get to take a average miles per gallon rate, and then calculate how many gallons of gasoline equivalent you used and then pay the current tax rates, I think .22 state and .18 fed. You didn't think you got out of paying taxes did you???

Well if I recharged a Prius at home I wouldn't pay tax...... waaaaa....

Air power, we used 5,000 psi air to rail launch various craft back in the day, those 5,000 psi bottles and compressors are kinda clunky. But electricity is predominatly provided by coal and nuclear, so its gotta be cheap, and you can dodge road tax.

Man ever see a helium delivery rail car? those things are heavvvvvy! At least when they are full the helium give them some lift.

[ko]

Originally Posted by Chrome Bumper

Solar panels on roofs won't give you enough power to run the home, and won't produce power at night.

Air flight took 50 years from its development til common use. Space flight, after 50 years is no where near common.

It will take time and lots of money to go renewable. And it won't be pretty, there will be lots of ugly infrastructure, hazardous waste generation and degraded environments to fully develop it. It won't be all hemp and lavender.

No free lunches.

Solar panels will power your home if you CONSERVE electricity.

And no they won't power your home at night. But there are these things called BATTERIES. The panels charge them up. If you CONSERVE electiricty during the day (when most people are not home) the surplus goes to your batteries which=power at night.

And even if they don't power your home, if more homes had them, it would offset the amount of power needed from less "green sources".

[Rank Amateur]

Originally Posted by Chrome Bumper

Well if I recharged a Prius at home I wouldn't pay tax...... waaaaa....

Don't expect that to stay that way. Gee, look, the government might finally find a way to charge for the air we breathe!!

[ampersat]

There is a point here: if we're burning H2, we're not burning oil in our vehicles. Where the H2 comes from (hydro power, coal, wind, whatever) matters little as long as we're not burning oil, as long as the goal is to reduce the amount of oil we import.

There's no free ride though. You're not going to 'trick' H2 out of water with less energy than it takes to break the covalent bond of the water molecule.

[Abalone]

Then there's this idea. http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm#pak

Reported on the news this morning. Baking soda + water + 12 volt battery to generate Hydrogen for your truck or car.

Smells like a hoax to me ??

Anyone familiar with this.

[HntnFsh]

Originally Posted by Abalone

Then there's this idea. http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm#pak

Reported on the news this morning. Baking soda + water + 12 volt battery to generate Hydrogen for your truck or car.

Smells like a hoax to me ??

Anyone familiar with this.

Its been debated on here.A few times lately.A quick search will bring up the threads.