Port warning to salty dogs ...

[fish assassin]

Hi everybody,

I don't really know how to go about this without hurting feelings or stirring
up contoversy, but I really feel like I need to give the "dogs" that fish out
of Depoe Bay a warning ...

Now, this isn't for ALL the dogs that fish out of Depoe Bay, only the ones that
moor their boats for any amount of time there. This port has always been known to
be a "hot" port, but it seems the problems have increased in the past couple of
years. By "hot" I'm talking electricly hot. Electrolisis. Galvanic corrosion. :shocked: :shocked:

After 8 months in the water at Depoe Bay and changing out all my anodes
twice in that period, I've developed some severe problems with my boat. The
electolisis in the port is sooo bad that it ate right through the bottom paint
clear down to bare metal. The boat next to me lost both hydrolic rams
on his outdrives due to galvanic corrossion after leaving his boat at
the dock through last winter.

Other boats in port are having similar problems with the least of these
being the need to change zincs (anodes) at least twice a year. :shocked: :shocked:

Part of the problem is that the port authority has not been enforcing it's own
rules concerning power cords (50 amp sealed shore power cords only) and the use
by many boats in port of Automobile style battery chargers.

Now, to give credit where credit is due ... Gary, the Harbor Master, told me last
week that the Harbor commission has been discussing this issue at length and that
they are *very* concerned. They will be enforcing the rules this year ... which should help a lot.

BUT , there is another problem. The shore power that feeds the meters on the dock
are another problem for which there is yet a plan. Seems that the power cables to the docks come out of the sea-wall and
drape down in the water. The port authorities understand that this is a
problem, and are looking for funding to fix it, but as of this time have
no time-table for repairs.

Now, don't get me wrong ... I'm not trying to diss on Depoe Bay!! I really do
love that port and the people that are there! I just want to warn anybody is
thinking about mooring their boat there that they need to be *very* careful to
watch for glavanic corrosion/electrolisis. Check your anodes often!

The Harbor Master will be working with me to help solve the problems that I am
having. My mechanic is borrowing the testers needed to check the water/dock/
boat/outdrive/etc. potentials and we will do what I need to do to correct the
problems so I don't need to repaint the bottom of the boat every year. Of course,
that is assuming that I can change my boat enough to compensate for the problems that
the port has. The Harbor Master is also going to get together with the Mechanic and
do a lot of other testing around the port to I.D. "hot spots" so the port guys can
better identify problem areas to fix.

Day boats (trailer boats) shouldn't have any problems at Depoe Bay 'cause you're
only in the water in port a short time.

Sometimes I miss the simplicity of my Dory soooo much!!

-assAssin-

[corrirod]

Thanks for the warnings FA, that's good information. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

How deep is the beer can layer on the bottom of the bay?

[Mark Mc]

Hey Mark, was the damage to your boat limited to the zincs / paint etc? Was the boat pulled out before any pitting to the hull started? I sure hope so. We feel for ya man...

[fish assassin]

Hey Mark,

No pitting yet! I'm going with a different bottom paint this time that
might help some. It includes two coats of an epoxy barrier paint before
the bottom paint is put on. The old paint had a zinc based undercoat.

corrirod,

I don't think it's the number of beer cans on the bottom of the port ...
I think it *might* have something to do with the steel pilings, though.

So many things to think about ... so little time!

-assAssin-

[Mark Mc]

Thank goodness your hull is still OK! I imagine that you've done a lot of homework on this, and are getting expert advice. Just in case you haven't seen this reference yet, I'll post it:

Dave Pascoe Website

See the two articles on corrosion.

Good luck!

[Marty]

Assassin

Thanks for the input on your battle at Depoe, it is a real eye opener, especially after reading the info about Marina Corrosion that Mark provided. Hopefully things will 'cool' down shortly and our only worry's will be where to fish.

Marty

[Chaps]

Mark, thats not a good thing! I don't recall, do you have the Volvo or the Merc Bravo III drives? If the BIII's then additional caution & inspection is recommended (but your mechanic is probably on it already). Also, on the bottom paint - are the bare areas pitted or are they still smooth? That is a curious problem . . .

BTW I'm finally picking up the 28 on Friday. Andy ran it last week and he tells me it was running at 52 mph on the GPS . . . :smile:

Bob

[ 02-12-2003, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Mugwump ]

[sharkbait]

Yeah Fish Ass I found a really good site on electrolises the other night try out this web site http://www.dairyland.com/marine.html weird name but man does it have a lot of info on this stuff. just thought I would let you know.

later old man

[fish assassin]

Mark Mc, Thanks for the pointer. I'm gathering all the info I can
but it's kinda confusing. Different sites say different things. On
one site it says you can over-zinc and on another it says you can NEVER
have too much zinc. I'm still in that learning curve!!

Marty, I've been working with both the Harbor Master AND a couple of members
of the Harbor Commission. They know it's an issue and they're working on it.
I was warned before I decided on Depoe Bay that it was hot, but chose to ignore
the warnings for a multitude of other reasons. I really DO hope we can get
this resolved so I can go back to just worrying about where the fish are!! :grin:

Mugwump, Maybe I'll see you on Friday? I should get there around 3PM to
make sure everything is ready to take my boat down to Toledo for the new bottom
paint on Saturday. If I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about your boat
having the same problems that I'm having. Looks like most of my problems are
being caused by port issues, not boat issues. Besides, your boat will probably spend
more time out of the water than mine! Mines hard to trailer and move at
34' LOA and 11.5' wide!!

Thanks to all for your support/encouragement/suggestions!! I really do
appreciate them!

-assAssin-

[rojo]

Swantown in Olympia is the same way 4 months for zincs, they said it is the bottom deposit. Hang a zinc fish over the side it helps, recheck all bonding points...

[DriftR]

Mark,
I bet you miss that old dory? What did the Coast Guard have to say about the bay being so hot? With that alum. cutter in the house at Depoe they must have the same kind of problem. But then again they have that pocket book that we wish we all had. Maybe their mechanics, the Harbor Master, your mechanic and you can come up with a good solution. Good luck and keep us up to date.

[Chaps]

Mark . . . I missed you today, I was in and out at Maxweld by 10 am. I saw your boat and I must say that Depoe must be pretty lively . . . !! When you repaint are you going to get back down to shiny metal? If you do you might think about first applying an etching primer before the main primer and bottom paint. Its an acid base primer and it really digs in to the metal. Also, I see you have the Bravo III's. Do yourself a favor and pull the props and inspect the inside of the lower end casting. The "X" brace bearing carrier in those units have been known to waste away under conditions like what you have described. Hope that's not your situation . . . Mercruiser has replaced a lot of these from what I understand (under warranty).

Bob

[fish assassin]

Hi Bob,

Sorry I missed you at MaxWeld on Friday. I didn't get there until
about 3pm. Pulled the boat down to Toledo on Saturday morning. It was
really a lot of fun watching them lift the boat off the trailer in the "cradle"
and putting it in the water!

Had one slight problem ... left the plugs out when we put it in the bay!
As soon as we hit the water I was suppose to start the engines to move
the boat out of their take-out slot. Turned the key, no power. Went
back and lifted the engine hatches to turn the batteries to the "on"
position and realize my mistake. Shouted at Mike and he lifted the boat
back up so we could install the plugs. Got a good chuckle out of the guys
doing the work! :grin: :grin:

My excuse? "What do you expect out of an old dory-man??"

Went back to Toledo on Monday to watch them put the boat in the
dry dock. I was just standing around (in the rain) waiting for it to
happen and they came up to me and asked me if I would take the boat into
the drydock. Quite the experience! The guys at the boat yard (Fred Wahls)
were really nice and very helpful. They spent quite a bit of time with
me discussing the electolisis problems and ways to protect myself.

Common in their advice was that I needed to be disconnected from shore
power 'cause the damage to the bottom of the boat indicated that there
was a bad ground someplace along our dock ... and I have a *very* good
idea where the problem(s) are! My next step is to get to the next
harbor commission meeting with my evidence and force them to start
enforcing their own (electrical) rules. I talked to a couple of other
guys that have their boats at Depoe Bay and they are with me, just not
willing to stir up the trouble that will be needed to get the port clean! :depressed:

The new paint will be two coats of an epoxy barrier coat and two
coats of albulative(sp) bottom paint. The guys at Fred Wahls tell me that
this should help quite a bit as the aluminum hull will no longer be actually
IN the salt (with minor exceptions).

... and the saga continues ...

-assAssin-

[Sensei-san]

Mark, I found out the hard way about automotive battery chargers also. I came back once to my boat and the power was off.

I couldn't figure out the problem so I finally pulled out my power cord. It was totally fried. So I took apart the panel and the hot lead was burned to a crisp.

After fixing everything and thanking my lucky stars that the panel didn't catch on fire, I went back to work on the boat.

Well later in the day after complaining to the harbor about possibly having a bad ground, one of the crabbers came back.

As soon as he plugged in his cord, my circuit tripped. I ran down and asked him what he had for circuits on his boat. After a "pleasant" conversation, I saw that he was using an automotive battery charger with a metal case and a three prong ac plug. He doesn't have an isolator on his boat.

Needless to say I am raising this issue with the harbor like you. Proper boat battery chargers are cheap. Guest makes a line of battery chargers that are three stage. Marinas should make them mandatory that all battery chargers meet the proper AYBC standards.

[fish assassin]

... and the saga continues ...

I got a call from Rex at the boat yard this morning and he gave me
some not-so-good news ... It's going to cost me closer to $3000 for
the bottom paint work. When he originally talked to me he said I would
be into it for "$2000 anyway". That was *before* he saw the boat. Now
that it is in the drydock and he was able to better see the extent of
the damage and could better estimate the work required he told me 2500 to
3000. Huh!!

On a good note: I talked to Gary (the Harbor Master) down at Depoe Bay
this morning and they have really got the ball rolling on fixing the electrical
faults in the bay! He was down walking the docks this morning, noting problems
and getting names/phone numbers together to start calling folks to get the
substandard cord and battery charger issues addressed. He also told me that
he is in negotiations with several electrical contractors in the area to move the
shore power cables so they don't hang in the water! It's GREAT to have a harbor
Master that has a boat in port! Makes it more important to him to take care of
the details (IMHO). [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Funding is still an issue, but Gary said he is working on that, also!

I'll keep you all posted as things progress, but it appears that things are moving
very quickly in the right direction at Depoe Bay!!

-assAssin-

[ 02-18-2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: fish assassin ]

[skein]

You guys are scarin' the absolute **** outta me! I'm about to buy an aluminum off-shore boat (like maybe an Ed Wing) and all I see is trouble. Pitting trouble. Hot-port trouble. Stainless-to-aluminum trouble. Yikes!

I read the electrolysis articles on the Dave Pascoe site, and it made me think that aluminum boats in the Big Briney was maybe not-so-good an idea.

I've owned an Arima since 1988 and the only time I ever put it in fresh water was just to do a flush-out of the motor and trailer. I mean it spent its entire life in salt (not moored, however). I was waxing it yesterday, thinking that it looked as good as new (really). Not pushing Arimas, but it doesn't seem that glass has the same propensity for problems as the metal boats.

Nobody wants problems, but I really don't want to go down the same road as FishAssassin is going down. I feel for you, buddy, and want to learn from your problems - and I really appreciate the way you are keeping us informed.

Right now I'm probably going to change my mind and buy a glass boat. Comments?

Skein

[Chaps]

Skein, as an aluminum owner I'll stick my neck out and say that IMO what Mark is going through is pretty unusual. In a hot marina any boat that has metal components underwater is going to get attacked. The other thing to consider when you see what he is spending is that Mark's boat is big! I was looking at his hull the other day when I picked up my 28 and a typical bottom job for a cat his size is not going to be cheap. Granted, you shouldn't have to take a boat back to bare metal every time you paint it but chances are the type of job he is putting on the boat this time will last far longer than the first go round the factory put on. I didn't see anything wrong with his hull plating other than severe paint failure. My Edwing has been sitting in the salt in a marina for over four years and I just re-painted the bottom this fall - not one tiny spec of electrolysis anywhere on the hull (except on the zincs, where it belongs). No worrys!

[Joe]

skein,

I have a 97' NR Seahawk which I have never even moored overnight. I wash the entire boat after each use ( just ask my wife ) and the paint is basically shot. They use stainless snaps, grab rails, tow hooks etc. Not a good idea!

[crabbait]

Edwing is set up to make boats for saltwater use. North River makes, basically, a fresh water boat. Ed's rails are aluminum, not stainless. I think the only stainless he uses are the cleats.

Fresh water baots use a lot of little trim pieces. Each little piece is a place for salt to collect and start working under the paint.

Mugwump,
Aluminum + saltwater + any more noble metal = trouble no natter where you are.

[fish assassin]

OK, here's the scoop on this metal boat/electolisis thing that I've been going through:

I've finally figured out that the reason I'm having all of these issues is because of the shore
power. Looks like there are lots of problems with Depoe Bay, but the Harbor Master is addressing
them. The guys down at the boat yard where I'm having the bottom done took one look at the
boat and told me in no uncertain terms that I needed to stay unplugged or get an isolation transformer.

A glass boat is not entirely the answer. If I had had a glass boat with outdrives or out boards
the problem would have just been transfered to the lower units of the power source. They told
me that it would have been worse with the above setup because I probably would have lost
a lot of metal to electolisis on the outdrives. As it was (which is bad!) I had a bigger area for
the electrolisis to work, so no one spot got eaten up too badly.

Last year the guy next to me (fiberglass boat with volvo outdrive) left his boat in the water all winter.
When he pulled it in the spring for maintainance, the hydrolic rams on his outdrive had been eaten
away to the point he had to replace them. Part of MY problem was that he was using a automotive battery
charger and a little indoor/outdoor cord for shore power.

As I've stated before, Gary (the Harbor Master) is on it and working the issue. I think he has
a good handle on what needs to be done. He'll make the port right, and with the changes I'm
making on the boat I think everything will be all right now!!

This is my first aluminum boat. I've always had wood/fiberglass dories befor this. Would I buy
another aluminum boat? In a heartbeat! Even though I'm having some issues right now, I'll
get 'em worked out. There are sooo many nice things about owning aluminum!!

Other boats that have been built at MaxWeld have not had the problems that I'm having. I've seen
lots of his boats over the years that have been in the water longer than mine and had zero problems
with the bottom paint.

This is/was a problem with the port!! NOT the aluminum boat!!! (IMHO)

If you leave your aluminum boat in the water for long periods and you use shore power ... get an isolation
transformer installed!! A galvanic isolator may not be enough! Trust me on this! I'm learning all of this
the hard way (but I AM learning!). :grin: :grin: :grin:

-assAssin-

[skein]

Okay, that makes sense. I'm one of those guys that wouldn't have known about the automotive charger or power cords. Ignorance ain't bliss in this case - it's closer to disaster.

My first thought was, "what about all those aluminum boat owners who are having trouble but not talking about it?" The ones who have bragged so much on their boats they don't want anyone to know that in reality theirs is falling apart.

A boat is always a roll of the dice, and I'm trying to do my homework because, like all of you, I need that boat to last a long, long time. And I need to know it will get me out there and back.

Thanks for everyone's input and sharing, and thanks for the email, CB. I'll start breathing again.

Skein

"Aluminum + saltwater + any more noble metal = trouble no matter where you are"

Less aluminum in the water+more zincs= happy boat

The aluminum alloy used in older outboards was extremely susceptible to electrolysis.

[Sensei-san]

I tend to agree with Keta. But the newer aluminum alloys are supposed to be compatible with marine use. The early aluminum alloys did not have the quality control like the modern aluminum alloys as they had trace amounts of copper in the mix. As such it increased the galvanic potential of the metal even more on the noble metals table resulting in rapid electrolytical action.

Any quality fabricator of aluminum boats must be able to supply the buyer with certification of the metals used in the manufacturing of the boat. It is not good enough to assume that thickness of the hull is enough.

[Pilar]

assAssin, I am pleased and not at all surprised to see our friend Gary the Harbormaster at Depoe Bay taking this problem to task.

You have probably known him longer than I have but he strikes me as very dedicated to his job.

Thank him for me the next time you see him and tell him that the tunaholics will be back this summer, in force. He will not want for fresh fish or tall tales.

Thanks Gary you are awesome!

One more thing on aluminum and saltwater.

Never get mercury near them

[fish assassin]

Pilar,

Actually, I've only known Gary since last spring when he took
over the Harbor Masters job. I agree, he is one heck of a nice
guy! Very dedicated. Very helpful. Last season when I was
having some over-heating issues he came down to my boat and crawled
into the bilge with me and helped me resolve the problems!! You
won't find *that* kind of sevice in many ports! :grin: :grin:

I'll pass the word on to him when I see him this weekend. I'm
sure he'll appreciate the kind words!

-assAssin-

[Joe]

Good one Keta. :grin:

Actually the Mercury on my boat seems to be the least of my problems.

Joe,
D'oh.
I did mean the element not the motor. An unintentional funny.

[Birdnest]

Skein,

Were you planning on trailering your boat? If so, wouldn't this be less of an issue vs having a nice self bailing Ed Wing? Did you guys ever go and visit? Pics?

Birdnest

[seasquid]

Assasin, that is ridiculous!

A certain unnamed Ford dealership in Corvallis has tried that game with me a couple of times...after I screamed, they reduced the price.

I hope things work out for you....

good luck.

ss

[corrirod]

OUCH!!!!

Well, glad to hear she's back on the water at least.

Have you had any feedback in regards to the letters we wrote for Gary? I would imagine they probably told Gary about them by now.

Hope it helps him and maybe we should all send letters to Fred Wahls Marine to help you lower that bill? [img]graemlins/icon_argue.gif[/img]

[fish assassin]

corrirod:

I'm going to call Fred Wahls tonight and give him a peice of my
mind (maybe the frontal lobe? :grin: )! I'll see what he has to say
for himself. I mean, can we say gouging?

I talked to Gary on Saturday and he told me that the harbor commission
got 8 or 9 letters ... which was a *huge* suprise to them! Usually,
the only time they get letters from the public about the Harbor Master
is when somebody is really cheezed off!

They got a little concerned and asked Gary if he was planning on
leaving. It gave him the perfect opportunity to voice his issues.
Again, thanks to everybody that helped in the letter writing
campaign!!

-assAssin-

[OceanBlue]

Ahhhh! The power of the pen!

Say hi to Gary for us!

Jen

[fish assassin]

... and the saga continues ...

OK, the good new first! I talked to a couple of the guys on the
Harbor Commision and they verified what Gary told me last week about
the electrolisis problems in port. They are actively working on getting
the port cleaned up. The first thing to go will be all the sub-standard
(read less than 30 amp) shore power cords, followed closely by unplugging
any boats running car battery chargers.

They also have a plan and are taking bids on getting the shore power
cords out of the water. Those cords are like 30-40 years old and are in
sad shape!

Now the bad news ... I took my boat to Fred Wahls Marine in Toledo to get
the bottom sand blasted and repainted. They estimated (without seeing the
boat) that it was going to coast about $2k for the sand blasting and re-paint.
When they got the boat in the yard they revised the estimate to $2.5 - $3k. Ok,
*that* hurt ... but it's gotta be done, ya know?? Anyway, I went down to get
the boat on Saturday and they handed me a bill for $5100!! OUCH!!!!!

Needless to say, when I get home tonight the owner and I are going to have
a little talk! As far as I'm concerned, there is no excuse for a suprise
of that magnitude!!

The BEST news of the weekend is that the boat is back in the water!
The admiral and I ran her out to the second bouy and back before tying up
to the dock for the final prep work so we can start fishing on March 15th
(weather permitting)!
:grin: :grin:

Sea ya!
-assAssin-