Outdrive Question

[Hawg Hunter]

I am thinking about having a 26' Almar built. I have received so many conflicting reports on outdrives that I don't know what to believe. I need your expert advice. Who makes the best unit; Volvo or Merc. Any advice you guys can share would be greatly appreciated. Also, has anybody heard anything about Mercruiser's new diesel engine? Thanks in advance.

[Pilar]

Hawg Hunter, this is a rendition of the old Ford vs. Chevy argument.

My $0.02 is Mercury/Mercruiser. You won't see any other motor on the serious offshore race boats. The blackmotors are tough and last a long time. The I/O on my boat is vintage 1977 mercruiser 140 and has 600 hours on a 4 yr old overhaul.

I fix it myself with a book and a few specialized tools. Simple in design, rugged and works, what would you change? If it needs fixed, which is rare.

Boat motors and mother in laws are kind of the same thing. If you want to see what your prospective wife will be like in 30 years, check out her mother for a clue. If you want to know if your boat motor will be around in 30 years look for old boat motors of that same make.

:grin:


To be fair to OMC, they have a Duoprop setup which can be seen on RYANBOAT in Newport. This seems to be the way to go for me.

[fishwhenican]

Some of Mercrusiers diesel engines are made by BMW and some by Cummins. The Cummins is a new addition and I am not sure if it is only one hp range or not? They both make good engines, just not as many BMW diesel mechanics around.

[Sensei-san]

What's the possibility of getting Almar to make a V-drive with a shaft? Then you wouldn't have to mess with an outdrive. Would probably be cheaper and in the real long run be a whole lot easier to maintain. Look at an Albin 27. They come with a Yanmar diesel and v-drives. Sweet boats.

I'm the opposite of Pilar. My basic philosophy is KISS. Mercury has one feature that I don't like and that is the water pump is in the lower unit. On the Volvo the water pump is on the engine and easier to maintain. I also like the Volvo cone clutch and lower dog unit. But all that is moot now as the patents expired and Mercury quickly stole the designs for the new Bravo drives.

Mercury's diesel choices are many. They have been playing the field. They had a nice partnership with Yanmar and now they have ditched Yanmar for Cummins. Yanmars are more techologically advanced than Cummins. Lighter too.

Nah... get the v-drive. ZF makes some sweet v-drive units that fit anything. How about a MAN v-16 2,000 hp job? You could make the Rockpile in ten minutes in any weather.

[Hawg Hunter]

Pilar and Fish,
Gentlemen, I really appreciate your responces. Maybe I heard this wrong but I swear the salesman said the new mercruiser diesel engines were built by "VM". I don't know what VM stands for. I will try to do some more research on the Mercruiser outdrives. (Bravo I, Bravo II, etc.) Thanks Again. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[Miss B Haven]

I looked at one of the new Volvo all composition Duoprops a couple weeks ago. I'd be real hard pressed to get a new boat with anything else (if I was going with a stern drvie). No corrosion to worry about. Tough as nails. I'm will to bet in a few years the alum outdrive will be a thing of the past.
Merc is having seriuos corrosion problems with their Bravo duoprop. They're making mods to correct but I think Volvo has the right idea. Get rid of that Alum all together. The one I saw had a 320hp GM MPFI hooked to it. It was going in a 28 footer as a retrofit. 17-20 grand with the trade in! They don't give em away.

PS - Gas OD Engines are all GM and so similar it's not funny. The drives are really the only diff.

[fish assassin]

Hawg:

You are correct! The MerCruiser Diesels for the past several years
have been built by VM, an Italian subsidiary of Detroit Diesel. I
have two 250hp versions in Pacific Mistress. They are the 2001 vintage
and coupled to the BravoIII outdrives (duo-prop). I have approx 650 hrs.
on the engines and outdrives with zero problems and the "corrosion
problem" has not reared it's ugly head. There was a big change in the
outdrives in 2001 that was suppose to solve the problem. So far, me and
the Mistress are happy campers!

BTW, the raw water pump is on the front of the engine, not on
the outdrive as mentioned by Sensei-san. YMMV.

If you have any specific questions about the MerCruiser Diesels
or the Bravo III outdrives, drop me a note and we can discuss it!

-assAssin-

[fish assassin]

Originally posted by Hawg Hunter:

Fish Assassin,
Last night I got onto "Cummins.com" and it looks like Cummins and Mercruiser have started a new joint venture. It must be pretty recent because "Mercurymarine.com" haven't updated their web page yet. What horse power diesel should I consider on a 26' boat? (I will also have a kicker motor for Salmon Fishing) We must fish some of the same salmon areas because I have seen you a couple of times out on the ocean from Depoe Bay. I didn't belong to IFISH at the time so I didn't know who you were. Next time I will say hello!

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Yeah, I've seen some mention about the MerCruiser/Cummins deal lately.
I don't have much info on that ... I would wonder if the prices are
going to be comparable to the present MerCruisers or closer to the
present Cummins prices. My guess is that they will be closer to the
Cummins prices. I had an option to put the Cummins motors in my
boat, but passed because it would have added about 20 grand to the price
(for two motors). Cummins Diesels are also *really* noisy. Ever stand
next to a Dodge truck and try to talk?

As for size, it really depends on what you want, what your hull configuration
is and what your pocket book will handle. On my 30 foot planning hull
(when it's up on step) I put twin 250's. Those same engines are now
rated at 300 hp. They ran about 20K each in 2001 (including outdrives).
The VM engines are also real quiet compared to the Cummins, I like that!
A whole day of listening to load engine noises makes me go a little
bonkers!! [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/eek13.gif[/img]

Feel free to stop by any time (after about March 1st) if I'm down at
the boat ... end of dock 3 ... I might even have a cold one available
for you!!

-assAssin-

[Sensei-san]

As my Chinese friend says: "American industrialist goes to China to setup a manufacturing shop and brings a Visegrip pliers as a model. Asks the plant manager if he can make a copy. The plant manager says: "Sure" The industrialist says don't you worry about copyrights? The manager answers: "Copyright????" "Yes, we copy right!!!"

I guess the street goes two ways. Poor Swedish engineers. Or it took Mercury seventeen years of waiting before they got it right. So much for intellectual property. Lemme see... Oh my CD burner just spit out a copy of the new Stone's album.

Seriously, I still think a v-drive and any single six cylinder diesel would be great in a 26' Almar. the engine would be in the middle and not in the back and would provide a good console for a bait station, fileting table or a backrest for benches. You could still trailer it and wouldn't have to mess with an outdrive. If you add a bow thruster, you would get all the maneuverability of a stern drive. Twins in a 26' boat is a bit of overkill.

[Hawg Hunter]

Sensei,
I will talk to Almar and see if they have ever done a V-Drive on a 26' boat. I admit it would be nice to walk completely around the motor. The only thing I would be concerned with is what happens if you have to cut out a crab pot rope? At least with an outdrive I think I could lay down on the swim platform and reach the rope with a knife.

Fish,
Thanks for the info. You are right about the cummins being a little noiser. I know the diesel in my Ford F-350 is quieter than the Dodges.

[Hawg Hunter]

Miss B,
I also saw the new composite Volvo Duoprop at the boat show. I didn't really get a chance to talk to anyone about it. If it works like their literature says it does, it would be the way of the future. I hope to find someone who has actually mounted it to their boat and see what they say about the performance.

Fish Assassin,
Last night I got onto "Cummins.com" and it looks like Cummins and Mercruiser have started a new joint venture. It must be pretty recent because "Mercurymarine.com" haven't updated their web page yet. What horse power diesel should I consider on a 26' boat? (I will also have a kicker motor for Salmon Fishing) We must fish some of the same salmon areas because I have seen you a couple of times out on the ocean from Depoe Bay. I didn't belong to IFISH at the time so I didn't know who you were. Next time I will say hello!

Thanks for your time Guys. [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

[fish assassin]

Originally posted by Hawg Hunter:

Fish,
Thanks for the info. You are right about the cummins being a little noiser. I know the diesel in my Ford F-350 is quieter than the Dodges.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">... And the diesel in my new (!!!) Chevy is quieter than either!

[Miss B Haven]

Sensai/Hog -Albin makes the boat you're describing with the single diesel inboard. A new member here has one (28') great boats! Not made out of recylced beer (or Tuna) cans either (that's for you FA ) :grin:
That reminds me- Crasea, where are you? You need to do an intro and tell us a story Denny! Come on - get with the program otherwise you'l lhave to buy us all a round Friday night! :grin:

[fish assassin]

Hey Mel,

How many times do I have to tell you?? Recycled Campbells Tomato
Soup cans?? Stronger than either beer OR tuna cans and after you squish
'em flat, they make a double walled hull!! But remember, they can
only be TOMATO soup cans ... none other will do!



-assAssin-

[Chaps]

FA, sounds like you need a little help defending your boat . . . I just bought the 28' that Andy at Maxweld brought up to the Seattle boat show . . . he really does a nice job.

HH, if you go V drive the engine will be close to the transom like an outdrive but it will be sitting backwards in the box. They are a good set-up if you don't mind learning how to manuever a conventional single screw boat. Most builders charge much more for it too . . . the i/o's are a much easier install. You will also probably loose fuel capacity as the mechanicals in the boat take up more room and that usually means smaller tanks.

[fish assassin]

Originally posted by Mugwump:
FA, sounds like you need a little help defending your boat . . . I just bought the 28' that Andy at Maxweld brought up to the Seattle boat show . . . he really does a nice job.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Really?? Is that the one that is 8' wide? Is it powered with
outboards? Or did he have TWO boats at the show this year? I
thought he told me the one he was taking up there was something
like 26' x 8'.

Enjoy your new MaxCat!!!! I know I enjoy the heck outa
mine (and it's an OLD one! A 2001 model! )

-assAssin-

[Chaps]

FA, it tapes out about 9' wide and 28' overall so cabin & cockpit feel like a 26'. Weighs about 7400 dry. I had him put 225 Honda's on it. We ran it Tuesday morning in Elliot Bay and it really scoots - don't know the numbers yet as the tachs, speedo & gps aren't hooked up (instruments arrived his shop on Friday) but it felt like 40mph, maybe a little more . . . I'll keep it in Puget Sound but would sure like to come over to the coast with it this summer for the longfins & salmon . . . probably Westport but maybe down your way too - Bob

[fish assassin]

Bob:

Yeppers, that's the one I've been watching him build the last couple
of months. NICE RIDE, dude! Last time I saw it my wife was with me and
I said something about wishing he had been building a boat that size when
I had mine built 'cause I probably would have bought one of those instead of the
30' model I got (33.5' overall). My wife set me staight! Told me the 30 footer
was just right! She *really* likes the queen bunk we had put in the front!

I truly believe your boat will be more versitile than mine ... not as heavy (mine
weighs in at about 6.5 tons) and less width (mine is 11.5' wide) will make it
sooooo much easier to trailer (IMHO)! And you just gotta believe that
she just SCREAMS with those big Hondas pushing her! :grin: :grin:

Again, have a *lot* of fun with her! PS, have you named her yet?

-assAssin-

[Sensei-san]

I was just giving some thoughts if you wanted to go diesel. Diesels are a whole lot heavier than gas engines and with a v-drive you could use any length driveshaft to get the engine more amidships. But my second choice would be to go with outboards. The new 4 strokes are way more fuel efficient, easier to maintain and a lot lighter than an I/O.

Choices... choices... choices.... tough to decide. For cheaper long term usage like ten to twenty years diesels begin to pencil out. For five to ten years going with the 4 stroke outboards make way more sense. I used to be a Volvo I/O fan. Now with the 4 stroke outboards, I think the boat manufacturers will be hard pressed to justify even considering I/O's anymore. I think that is why Yamaha discontinued their I/O program.

[Chaps]

FA, thanks for the comments . . . LOL on the size discussion, that never ends . . . the naming thing will take awhile (or it might come to me later today). The boat has a kind of sinister Darth Vader, Special Ops type of look so I might play off of that. This boat doesn't have the pickle fork bow and the windshield slants back (but you probably already knew that) so its a bit diff than other Maxcats.

Sensei, I agree totally that the 4 strokes are the way to go. Easy to maintain, cheap to run, fast and if you do wear them out (I think they are good for 2000 hours if maintained) they can be swapped out in an afternoon . . . what's not to like?

Heading for the show . . . gonna help Andy get the booth set-up and fiddle with the electronics, show starts tomorrow.

[fishwhenican]

I was confused, but only a little :grin:
VM Motori does/did make the diesel engines for Mercruiser. I had them confused because BMW uses the same engine/fuel system/turbo in some applications and Bosch specs sometimes call it a VM and sometimes a BMW. VM has made a lot of engines for a lot of diff manufactures, including Toyota etc.

Fish Assassin: are the engines in your boat IDI or DI (direct injection), big difference in noise. most of the VM applications I have seen are IDI, but I would think the 250 hp would be DI. The Cummins are noisy, but the 2003 (Dodge) has the same type fuel system (HPCR) as the Duramax and is considerably quieter.
Do you know if the partnership with Detroit/VM is just in the US or just for the Jeep?
Isuzu/GM for Duramax: I believe that GM only owns a controlling interest in the 6.6L engine and the production facility, but not a controlling interest in Isuzu?

It becomes very hard to keep up with who owns who. A lot of major players (Cat) bought other engine manufactures for production facilites,testing facilities or different size range engines to make thier line complete. Cat didn't have any small engines that would pass the new emissions laws, I guess it was cheaper to buy Perkins and part of Mitsubishi than to develop thier own. Same for Detroit with VM and Detroits series 40 (made by Navistar) etc. etc. etc.

[Chaps]

FA, thanks for the invite, I would love to learn how you guys "shoot the hole" on those bad days. I remember an exciting ride under the bridge on the Jimco years ago . . . thought I was going to be swimming the last 100 yards to the dock but the capt'n made it look easy.

Below decks in the cockpit is fuel (2 ea 100 gals) and a couple of fishboxes that are about 4'x2'x2' deep.

fishwhenican, my understanding of the new Mercruiser i/o diesels is there are 3 of them. The smallest is based on an Isuzu engine, the mid size is a polish engine and the big one is the VM, an Italian block. The interesting thing about the VM is that the bottom end doesn't use main caps - the crank is installed from the end and rides in inserted bearings. Apparently this makes the block super stiff and long lived. The basic VM motor has been in use in Europe for many years. At this point my knowledge runs out . . . [img]graemlins/dork.gif[/img]

[fish assassin]

Mugwump,

"Pickle fork bow" ... I LIKE that description! It just works!
When Andy built mine, he pushed the bow out some, relieving some of the
"pickle fork" so we could put a queen bunk up front. Also, *most*
of the boats he builds are with that same windshield configuration. He
likes it a lot better. Makes the inside of the cabin "feel" bigger, keeps
the windshield clearer of spray and you don't get near the glare from the
sun. A winner and a keeper IMHO!

So, what did Andy do with all the extra below decks space where he
usually puts the engines? Did you end up with extra storage spaces or
bigger fish boxes? That's one of the pet-peeves I have about Pacific Mistress ...
the fish boxes will only hold about 1100 pounds of TUNA!! Those twin
250hp diesels of mine take up a lot of room!


Say "hi" to Andy for me! If you happen to get down to Dopey Bay this
summer, look me up. We can swap tales about the fun of fishing in our
"recycled beer cans"!