Enthonal a good thing or not

[mudde]

To me it seems a enthonal may not be such a great thing, we at least not the use of food product. There are other choices that are not food, and get more yield.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080704...GeDtV7IGkDW7oF

[12pulls]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_a_dead_horse

[roadsend]

Ethanol is not only a good thing but a great thing, not when burned as fuel, but when used for the purpose that God created it.

[Lead Bouncer]

It will ruin your outboard.
It requires the burning of one gallon of oil for 1.3 gallons of ethanol.
Higher prices for corn have increase corn production and cut back on other crops.
It takes a lot of water, like from the columbia, to water the corn. LOTS of water.
Cost of feed corn goes up and so do eggs, butter and meat.
OH, your tax dollars have be subsidizing the research and production of ethanol, to KEEP THE PRICE DOWN!

[1pump]

The refineries are now supplying subgrade 84 octane intead of 87 due to ethanol being blended in. They're laughing all the way to the bank. Meanwhile we're paying $4+ for a crap product that's inferior to the $3 gas we were getting last year at this time.

[baltz526]

and i have changed 2 plugged fuel filters on one work truck (second filter lasted maybe 200 gallons) and 1 on the other. since the 10% mandate

[boatman]

What has God have to do with gas???

[baltz526]

ETHENOL= alcohol= hangover=liver failure=personal experience with god

[duckboy]

Originally Posted by baltz526

ETHENOL= alcohol= hangover=liver failure=person experience with god

Yep..

Well said Baltz

[SuperPanga]

I have read in a European news magazine that this fuel takes a large amount of energy to produce. It also takes away from world wide food production. It has raised our food prices and is going to lead to food shortages in some of the under developed countries in the world.
The only one benefitting from this are the farmers and refiners. Not a good idea.

[JustCallMeDave]

When the poor get hungrier, and eventually die, because of the comparatively rich and their need to drive their vehicles, I can't help but wonder if there will soon be a sizeable backlash.

[roadsend]

No doubt in my mind that there will. What form it will take is the major unknown variable.
I don't think starving people are too concerned about global warming. I would not want to be one of the well to do in a third world country with hungry people.

[JustCallMeDave]

Imagine trying to explain to a village on the brink of collapse due to starvation that we chose this fate for them instead of consuming less fossil fuels.

[Clyde]

Wait a minute...we seem to have plenty of land to grow things here in the US, so how does that effect a village? Let's get rid of a few hundred golf courses and then see what happens.

As well, how do explain to a mother that her child died for oil from the Middle East? Is one life more important than the other?

I think the point is to get off of our dependancy of Middle Eastern oil, not completely switch fuels...50% of our oil still comes from Canada!!!

And then there's Alaska which is a whole other can of worms!

[Dave G]

They already said one of the reasons for higher gas this year was a shortage of corn. Then it really fouls up olders moters and two strokers. Then it is sad that someone is hungry because my F-150 needs a fillup.

[krickit]

Who would you rather see get rich from energy demand? American farmers or the Saudi's?

[roadsend]

Originally Posted by krickit

Who would you rather see get rich from energy demand? American farmers or the Saudi's?

I am not sure it is that simple.
How much stock in American farming corporations is owned by Saudis?
How much oil company stock of corporations operating in Arabia is owned by Americans?
How many people in the world will go hungry because we are burning food as fuel for our cars and boats?
Considering the lower miles/gallon from ethanol, how much oil are we really saving? Are we saving any oil at all?
Have we in reality just given American farming corporations a place in the feeding trough next to the oil companies?

[Irish Pennant]

If another country would let their people starve and then blame the USA tells me that they are just total incompetent at governing and are corrupt through and through. Using the USA as a scapegoat is just a way of deflecting the blame. To except their blame is idiocy and to feel any guilt is just nuts. There's enough agriculture technology, available land and open source information to sow many more rows. There are volunteers that travel the world teaching people modern farming practices. there is financial help from the world bank, the UN, NGO's and governments. If the resources isn't making it to the people then look at corruption at the local level. When our press is trying to give us a guilt trip it's nothing but agenda driven politics. This country has done more to feed the world and to teach the world to feed it's self than any nation before us. I want a big thank you from the world, not a finger in the eye. Ethanol is just beginning to become a part of our energy fabric. There's going to be a period of integration into our economy, it may take a few seasons for it to take place but when it does then it will be as normal as the internet (This is something else we gave the world).

[JustCallMeDave]

Oh, I see. So those people internationally are dying because they're just not motivated enough. That's much easier to swallow, and I'll be able to now happily fill my rig knowing that all they need to do is take some Ag101 classes. Much more simple than I had thought!

[Irish Pennant]

You nail it Dave.

Some countries were heavily subsidizing their energy and food, have centralized government controlled economies. With the global increase in the cost of oil they can no longer afford to subsidize as they were in the past and have passed the cost on to the citizens. They can't afford to buy gas and food without those subsidies and are having to make changes in their life. Their government is deflecting the blame to the USA in order to maintain their hold on power. We are an easy scapegoat. The Evil West is the blame for all the world ilks.
Ethanol in the USA is just now coming on line. We as a nation haven't had enough time to plow up all our food crops to convert them over to gas crops and to intentionally starve the world. It will take a few more years.

[freespool]

Perhaps this is more of a special interest decision to go with corn instead of other crops?

http://news.mongabay.com/2008/0107-switchgrass.html

"While corn and other annual cereal grains are now primary sources for U.S. ethanol production, the researchers note that perennial crops, like switchgrass, as well as agricultural waste and forestry biomass can be broken down into sugars that can be fermented into ethanol. In the future these could be developed as important feedstocks for cellulosic ethanol that could potentially displace 30 percent of current U.S. petroleum consumption."

[5 Salt]

Missing the big picture here....

Enthonal puts more carbon into the atmosphere than the oil it set out to replace as "the green fuel of the future".

Ferterlizer needed to support corn growth pumps more polutants into the wetlands, rivers and lakes because you know those that have switched to growing corn as means to improving their bottom-line sure ain't growing it organic. A highly water and fertilizer intensive crop...say, isn't fertilizer made from petroleum?? More water to push that fert into the aquafer and places where fish and waterfowl like to live.


Oh yea, and all that other stuff about world food prices/shortages, poor fuel economy, inferior fuel product, hard on regular engines, and oil co's laughing to the bank at your expense ......all so you brag it up at your summer bbq's about how Green you are with your new Chevy flex fuel SUV that gets 18mpg on the freeway.

Buy a Hy-bird car and get 45-50mph! No money for a hy-bird you say? Buy a used VW Rabbit deisel....50mpg.

Enthonal - what a laugh!!

Maketing spin from an automaker who's stock is trading at $10 per share (GM, lowest since 1950's) and about to file bankrupcy. Take Honda as your paradime of hopeif you want look green your next Starbucks visit. Stuck to making smaller fuel efficient cars, now prospering in a down auto market with an average fleet fuel economy of somewhere around 30mpg....and more America content than any GM built today.

[baltz526]

ethanol made from waste agricultural products is a logical fuel source, except for the shipping to a central year round distillery

[krickit]

[quote=roadsend;2078574]I am not sure it is that simple.
How much stock in American farming corporations is owned by Saudis?
How much oil company stock of corporations operating in Arabia is owned by Americans?Good question, I don't know. DO YOU?
How many people in the world will go hungry because we are burning food as fuel for our cars and boats? NOT my problem. I don't believe we should be the care takers of the world.
Considering the lower miles/gallon from ethanol, how much oil are we really saving? Are we saving any oil at all? Probably not now, but in the future through success and failure I believe we can save oil.
Have we in reality just given American farming corporations a place in the feeding trough next to the oil companies? Hopefully yes we have made farming more profitable.

[Dave G]

Originally Posted by krickit

Who would you rather see get rich from energy demand? American farmers or the Saudi's?

American farmers, time to fill up the F-150.

[tallon]

Maybe drop the embargo with Cuba and use their sugar cane! Of course we'd have to put a tax on it similar to Brazil so it wouldn't pay to import it no matter that it burns better and cleaner than corn stuff. The system needs to
be changed,too many hogs at the trough.

[Dave G]

Solar power, we have been doing it for years. Now we need to mass produce it in our vehicles.

On a side note rant, it is America and the give me, give me, give me. We want everthing. And to a certain extent, that is just fine, that is what makes America. But EVERONE wants a truck, EVERYONE wants a house. There are idiots out there that have never had a load in their bed, hooked up to a trailer or had their truck in 4x4 off road. YOU don't need a truck. I saw a lady on the news who was crying because she did not know how she was going to make her $365,000.00 mortage payment off of a $30,00.00 a year job. My god, when I was making 30k a year I was not thinking about buying a 365k house. To sum it up if you CAN"T afford it, don't get it. If you do get it, don't cry when it gets real tight.

[happybrew]

Originally Posted by JustCallMeDave

When the poor get hungrier, and eventually die, because of the comparatively rich and their need to drive their vehicles, I can't help but wonder if there will soon be a sizeable backlash.

We need to drive less and drill more. We need to explore other sources of energy. It's like weight loss. Everyone wants a magic pill to cure all ills when it takes a serious diet and a lot of lifestyle changes. Telecommuting. Nuclear power and electric vehicles. Living closer to where you work. Increase in use of rail service (including electric locomotives tied to a nuclear power grid). A bunch of little fixes is the answer, not a magic solution like ethanol fuel which will starve people out.

happybrew

[Duckwheat]

Worthless things our governement had given us: In no particular order.

1. Low flush toilets.
2. TSA
3. Ethanol in gas.

That is just a start.....................................


DW

[Lepper]

1. Low flush toilets.

I just double and tripple flush.. problem solved

[wsuweston]

Bad

[OutdoorBum]

Govt. subsidies = bad business idea that can't stand on its own 2 feet

[Half fast Toyn]

My two strokes are running fine.... but my bike dont run for crap on the ethonol

[SeanD]

Corn Ethanol is Crazy, without government $$ pushing this it would not be viable. Did you vote for the current Oregon Governor? Lets remember who signed the bill that requires all gasoline sold in Oregon to be blended with 10" ethanol.....

[fishingls]

Originally Posted by Lead Bouncer

It will ruin your outboard.
It requires the burning of one gallon of oil for 1.3 gallons of ethanol.
Higher prices for corn have increase corn production and cut back on other crops.
It takes a lot of water, like from the columbia, to water the corn. LOTS of water.
Cost of feed corn goes up and so do eggs, butter and meat.
OH, your tax dollars have be subsidizing the research and production of ethanol, to KEEP THE PRICE DOWN!

Corn production is down in the NW from last year. Furthermore it takes less water to grown corn than spuds or alalfa. One of the probelms of growing corn, is that currently for many growers many other crops offer better rates of return. The real problem is that we have less than a 60 day world supply of grain reserves and this is driving prices. Also, much of the material remaining from the ethanol production still goes to feed livestock.

[1pump]

Worthless things our governement had given us: In no particular order.

1. Low flush toilets.
2. TSA
3. Ethanol in gas.

The TSA is at the top of my list. I just had to get a mandatory TWIC card at a cost of $132 just so I could keep working at my job. My employer paid for it, but guess who really gets to pay for it?

You do!! Every time you put gas in your car!

All the tanker drivers out there have to have a TWIC card, too. They're not gonna eat the cost. They'll just pass the savings along.