Surge VS Electric Brakes and saltwater.

Captn · 12-09-2002, 01:44 PM

Can we go over this again? I just checked the surge brakes on my tandem trailer for my 24' Trophy. As everything else that is mechanical and linked to saltwater, the brakes are shot, and the master cylinder has been dry for who knows how long.
I have talked to very knowledgable boat owners who differ on the values of each.
As near as I can tell the advantages are as follows:

Surge Brakes --
Advantages >> any vehicle that tows the boat will have the use of the surge brakes when stopping (properly installed of course).
Disadvantage >> No control when backing down, and not usable unless stoping from forward motion.
Electric Brakes --
Advantages >> Better control of brakes in almost all conditions.
Disadvantages >> Must have a electric control unit in any vehicle that pulls boat.

Assuming a flush kit has been mounted to help clean the saltwater from the brakes, is there an advantage to either unit?

For me at the moment, it is about $1000 either way---- or is it?

Any input form the vast knowledge out there would be most helpful.

Thanks ahead of time for your response.

Mike G

[ 12-09-2002, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: captn ]

OceanBlue · 12-09-2002, 01:52 PM

Captn - who else is towing your boat?

I can't tell you how well either holds up when exposed to salt, but being the tow-er, I MUCH prefer electric for the tow-ee.

Pitch Pocket · 12-09-2002, 04:18 PM

I have the electric brakes on the ezloader trailer hauling the SeaSport. Excellent control, especially down-hill where you want to use the trailer to slow you down and backing down a steep ramp. Complete control.

I'm paranoid about the salt, but so far, I have been religiously flushing the brakes with the installed flushing system, well semi-religiously anyway. A hose bib isn't available at every salt water ramp. I just flush them as soon as I can. As with any brake system and salt water, I'm just waiting for the shoe to drop and break out a boat buck to repair them.

Beer Waggin · 12-09-2002, 05:18 PM

I'm a surge fan!
My experiences with surge brakes have been much more pleasurable vs. the electric.
I can still remember laying under a trailer in Flagstaff one moon lit autumn night looking for that #@&$ short in the wiring harness.

[ 12-15-2002, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: NorRivDave ]

Gobbaworms · 12-09-2002, 09:09 PM

The only people I hear complain about their brakes have electric.
Surge brakes are simple and therefore have fewer things to break. That in itself is better.

As for the price tag, if you do the work yourself (everything should bolt up so it's not that hard) you could get a real nice SS and galvanized disc brake system with a reversing soleniod for about what you were thinking. Other drum systems for much less.

Captn · 12-10-2002, 06:26 AM

Well, thanks for the input, it sounds like there is easily two ways to go. I am kind of wondering if the reason that electric brakes are the more frequent problems, is because if surge brakes are not working, there is no signal. It dosen't sound like either is perfect, but I think I will go with the flush kit plus the electric brakes. If problems arise, I will keep all posted.

Again, thanks for the input.

Master Baiter · 12-10-2002, 07:03 AM

Hello all,

Are the flush kits easy to install? My EZ Loader is lacking them.

Thanks,

MB

billfish · 12-10-2002, 07:57 AM

Have had both types of brakes over the many years and all the problems associated with them. About six years ago , I got a trailer with torsion arms and disk brakes that are ss rotors and aluminum calipars with brass cylenders. They have been trouble free. Another choice to look at.

Mojo · 12-10-2002, 08:26 AM

If you ever tow on icy or slick roads, stay away from surge brakes.

Salmonator · 12-10-2002, 07:15 PM

If you switch from drum to disk you MUST remove the little valve in your brake coupler that holds fluid pressure. You will burn up your disk brakes like I almost did. It's in the instructions but I didn't feel like bothering with it at the time and didn't think it was important :blush: Brakes work great now and there's nothing to rust. Won't go back to drums.

Rod Holder · 12-10-2002, 07:40 PM

Master Baiter, march on down to Home Depot and get some Poly tubing, zip ties, a tee, and few other plastic nick-nack fittings. It'll set you back about $18. Piece of cake to install, removing the drums is about as tough as it gets (good time to check those bearings)

Master Baiter · 12-12-2002, 06:49 AM

Thanks RH, I will look into it! So is it just an open hose (no special nozzle) that comes through an opening in the backing plate and just runs water from the top to the bottom with a hose bib on the other end?

I seen kits in BoatUS for about $30 per axle.

MB

Rod Holder · 12-12-2002, 07:20 AM

M B, most of those kits have no nozzel, I was going to just install a bulkhead fitting in the brake backing plate with a PVC pipe cap on the end & drill holes in the cap to direct the spray upward but I scored some freeby fancy stainless steel nozzels instead.

Mr. Fisherman · 12-14-2002, 02:50 PM

Hey Rod Holder, Thanks a lot. Now I know why the price of toilet paper went up... [img]graemlins/applause.gif[/img]

Rod Holder · 12-14-2002, 05:09 PM

Mr F, isn't it amazing that the price of T.P. is as low as it is?........I assume the home grown brake flush unit works good as things haven't come to a rusty, screeching hault yet.......shouldn't you be out boat shopping?.or installing a ceiling fan

Mr. Fisherman · 12-22-2002, 04:04 AM

Ken, Ive been there, done that :grin:

Mike, check out this article on installing brakes on a trailer!

Trailer brake installation article

nerta · 12-22-2002, 07:45 AM

:smile: Stay away from surge brakes( they are better than none) if you do lots of traveling. Unless you can disconnect them when you get in bad weather. surge brake advantage is foward stopping. Disadvantage locking on ice and snow when only slightly applying pickup brakes and pushing the horse trailer down the bank into bar ditch. Electric Advantage help Stop The Combined Load at YOUR Request Anywhere Anytime. disadvantage may not have brakes when towing with others autos. no brake system or any other mechanical equipment works for long without some maintenance. :smile:

Captn · 12-22-2002, 08:07 AM

Ray, thanks for the good information.

And this is something you might want to pay attention to, also anyone who is buying a used boat with the trailer. When we took the surge brake system apart it was trashed. Those brakes had not worked for heaven knows how long. So I am at the point where I need to make a decision as to go with the surge or go ahead and switch over to electric. I asked the marine mechanic I work with about the comment someone had made -- the only time anyone has to work on their brakes it is an electrical problem. His resopnse was "not so". At that very time he had two boats across town that he had to get because the surge brakes had frozen up. Anyway that is neither here nor there.
I did go ahead and choose the electrical system with the flush kits. Everything is installed and now we are waiting for fish.
NOW the part that I am still wondering about is the disc brake issue. I currently have drums and these will work for the next few years. I asked about the stainless steel disc brakes and was told that they do not work as well on the trailering systems as the drum brakes. Is this true? And if it is true, why would they work so well on cars, motorcycles, ATV's and everything else, and not on a boat trailer?
It sounds like the possible best system would be the SS disc on a tandem with electrical hookup. At what towing weight do electrical systems come into their own? Do most of the large 5th wheels and camping trailers have surge or electric, drums or disc.
The issue is as in many others, I live in a small universe, and with the help of Ifish we can easily get valuable input from people who have already fought this battle. Thanks to all who have responded.

Gobbaworms · 12-23-2002, 08:40 PM

Sorry Captn,
I live in a small universe too. I was the one who said I only hear people complain about electric brakes, and your marine mechanic friend has many more experiences to work from. If I had to guess, those complaints I heard came from folks who didn't have flush kits. Anyway let me see if I can touch on your other questions, but first a little bit of physics.

Brakes work by turning kinetic energy (motion) into thermal energy (heat). When either system is full of the end product (heat) then it becomes less efficient at producing it, hence brake fade. With drums, all the heat is trapped inside the drum while the disc is exposed on both sides. Since the disc can get rid of heat better, it stops better in heavy or prolonged braking without fading as much as drums. This is why they work better on cars.

As to why drums work better on trailering systems-I haven't heard that one but a guess would be drums are self actuating so they require a smaller cylinder and therefore a amount of fluid to make them work.
I have actually heard disc brakes perform very well on trailers. From the "lesson" above that makes sense and from a mechanical standpoint too. A disc brake has one moving part (the piston) versus lots more in a drum. Also a drum requires more adjustment. The adjusting arm works to adjust the shoes but only when braking in reverse. I don't think braking while backing down a ramp is enough braking force to do much for boat trailers (I don't know that for a fact though). Without maintaining all those moving parts, failure is imimnent, like the 2 calls for friend had.

As for what most travel trailers have, its electric drums. I think that is more for a cost saving measure as you can "upgrade" a boat trailer to disc. And since you never intentionally dunk your RV in the ocean, the brakes last a long time.

Lastly, an electric disc brake sounds pretty cool but I don't know if such a beast exists because it would still need fluid to push the piston. If it did exist, it would probably be some sort of electro-hydraulic thing, and at that point, why bother.

Whew!!
Just my $.08 :smile:

[ 12-23-2002, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Gobbaworms ]

Captn · 12-24-2002, 07:00 AM

Thanks, GOW. I think at this point, I am going to go back to getting on task, ie getting the boat in the water and go fishing.

Captn · 12-24-2002, 05:28 PM

Sure Ray, That sounds like a great idea. The old "double gaynor" should be ready to get some kinks out, nice late winter cruse. I'll see if we can't get Krystalflash as a deck hand.

Mr. Fisherman · 12-24-2002, 11:23 PM

Hey Captn, I'll be looking for a buddy boat to make the round trip run from Chinook Landing to Bonniville and back to shake down the Sea Lion and prep for sea trials.
I would like to do it before the end of February as I have plans to fish the ocean the first week in March with my son for our birthdays.

Are you game? :smile:

Salmonator · 12-25-2002, 05:12 PM

Once disc brakes are installed correctly (with the proper coupler modification like I previously mentioned) they work great and are generally trouble free unlike drum brakes I've had in the past. I only replaced the front axle on my trailer and plugged off the lines to the rear and it stops well enough that I don't even think I'll bother putting brakes on the back.

Mr. Fisherman · 12-25-2002, 06:45 PM

O.K. Capin',

Lets target the 3rd or 4th week of February. Maybe we could form an armada of Ifishers who want to insure they have the right stuff in the right condition for the trip.

Or we could just keep it low key and make a quick trip of it with some sort of celebatory ceremony at the end.

Let me know here or email me if ya like.

Hope you and yours had a festive and happy holiday season,

Ray

Mr. Fisherman · 12-25-2002, 06:48 PM

Oh yea, I hope I can keep up. The Sea Lion can do 31.5 Knots WOT but prefers to cruise between 20 and 25 and dosen't fall off step till about 9.5. Great at the pump though...
I look forward to seeing you and your son on the water....

Pilar · 12-27-2002, 07:29 AM

Gobbaworms, since you're in physics mode, why did you not consider the surface area of a drum vs. a disc?

Most discs are webbed like a mag wheel with a 3 inch wide contact area in a ring around the outside on both sides. The hoop design is for reasons of reducing the moment of inertia. A hoop shape has less inertia than a solid disc.

If you count both sides of the 10" disc and the contact area as a heat transfer surface you get about 80 square inches. The same size drum if you count only the surfaces directly exposed to air has just over 100 square inches.

The mode of heat transfer between the iron and air is convection so the relative amount of heat transfer possible follows surface area. More surface area gives more heat transfer.

That's one consideration. Ever notice how you can heat a steel pipe or bar and it takes a long time for the other end to get hot? Well that is a property of steel that it has a relatively high Cp and that it conducts heat pretty slowly. So the drum has to conduct heat away from the contact area, through the drum and then convect the heat away. This takes a while. A disc is heating the surface that is exposed to air. No conduction. It cools faster.

Conclusion. A disc is a more effective brake because it has more braking surface. Under constant use it quickly gets hot and fades. It also recovers quickly.

A drum is a less effective brake but it takes longer to fade and longer to recover.

fishwhenican · 12-27-2002, 04:54 PM

Pillar I'm not sure that I agree with you on your very last statement. Disc brakes in every application I am aware of fade less than drum (automotive, truck and racing). Drum brakes certainly take longer to "recover" Correct me otherwise? Keep in mind that with heat metal expands, that means that the drum expands away from the brake shoes while with disc brakes, the disc expands into the brake pads.

Pilar · 12-28-2002, 07:58 AM

Fade is caused by a change in the coefficient of friction. As the steel and brake pad heat up they become slicker.

This whole thing does not give itself to easy analysis. Disc brakes work well on cars and trucks. They quickly burn off the speed. Since I have never used them on trailers or boat trailers specifically I can't tell you about that.

Does anyone here use discs on a trailer? What happens on a long downhill grade?

Gobbaworms · 01-02-2003, 04:03 PM

Pilar,
If you check the syllabus for the coming spring quarter, you'll see we go into moments of inertia and intermediate discussions on convection and coefficients of friction. :smile:

Surface area is a worthwhile discussion, but then you also have to discuss the volume of air coming in contact with that surface, since disc rotors are vented and drums are not.

On a long down grade hill, I would imagine discs would do the same as drums; overheat and fade, just at a slower pace. I've found that effective braking on long grades is more how you drive than what kind of brakes you have.

Lets not forget the braking fluid. If one anticipates prolonged braking situations, a high performance fluid that can withstand higher temps may be in order.

Streetwalker · 01-30-2003, 07:45 PM

Gob,
Keep that train of thought fresh & come see me when you can.
While you you were soaking up the Florida sun last Sat, I was nursing the boat home with the brakes shot (allready).
I pulled into the John Day ramp to rinse out the pump after a very rough but productive crab outing, & found smoke rolling out of one of the wheels.
After getting it home Sat night, I pulled the hub apart & ALL of both brake pads fell out. I opened one more wheel to check & those pads are not far from coming off.
Guys this trailer is only 2 yrs old & is a high quality trailer (Tricker). All of the brake components look pretty bad allready. I would really like to convert to stainless but not sure if the budget will allow for awhile. I think I can get entirely new backing plates w/ shoes for around $ 50 per wheel. I may have to do this to get by for another 2 years & then go all stainless.
Salmonator, how much was it for you to do 1 axle ??
Any other options out there??

Salmonator · 01-30-2003, 09:12 PM

I just looked it up in Cabelas, $109 per wheel. My tricker brakes fell apart in less than two years also, with heavy salt use. I'm still happy with my discs after more than a year... Joe

Streetwalker · 01-30-2003, 09:57 PM

Salmonator,
Thanks for the tip, I would not have thought to look there & I happen to have gift cert. for Cabelas that will cover half of one axle.
How heavy is your boat, I see that these are rated @ 1700 ea. Did they fit the the stock spindles & were there any other parts that were needed for the install ?? I think I will be ordering 1 pr tomorrow.
I am assuming that yours are surge, not electric.

[ 01-30-2003, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Streetwalker ]

Fishaholic2 · 02-02-2003, 03:13 PM

Concering electric brakes, does anyone out there take their boat to Vancouver Island much, I understand that if your boat is over 22', electric brakes are now REQUIRED in BC?

Re:Play · 02-02-2003, 05:01 PM

Joining this discussion late--I did not see anything about disconnecting the electric brakes before putting trailer into water, especially salt water. I am led to believe this helps for both the brakes and lites. Am I just making this up, or have others found the same thing.

Salmonator · 02-02-2003, 05:44 PM

Streetwalker, they were amazingly easy to install on my escort trailer and I can't remember needing any other parts. As far as weight my boat and trailer weighs roughly 5,800lbs and it stops nice with just one axle but I'll probably do the other when I get the money. And I can't mention enough times that you need to read the instructions and remove the little valve in your surge brake coupler that keeps the pressure from bleeding off after the brakes activate. You will burn them up in no time.

[ 02-02-2003, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Salmonator ]

RJ · 02-02-2003, 05:50 PM

I have disc brakes on my sled trailer with an actuator(electric) for back up I'm in the market for a new system as well I can speak from experience though on long steep down hill grades it wasnt pretty...I could've cooked on them hubs that i feel was because of the tounge weight and inertia against the surge coupling on the down hill decent Iv'e been talking with the local RV/Trailer dealer just have'nt decided which one to go with yet.RJ