Marlin Bait

Popeye · 09-12-2002, 06:29 AM

Hey Pilar.... I called my brother in MS this morning and told him to ship me some "Horse Ballyhoo" rigged and ready to roll! I already have a Penn International Bluewater setup w/1000 yards of 80# Tuffline..... sound like fun? :grin: My mechanic left a voice mail last night to call him...didn't sound promising

I'll keep you and Rod updated.
Bruce

Pilar · 09-12-2002, 07:17 AM

Bruce, my Dad, years ago took some of the ballyhoo to the sea of cortez in Mexico. He lived in S. Florida at the time.

The result was amazing. I believe that the Ballyhoo are not indiginous to the Pacific near Mexico and even so the fish went nuts over it. Dorado, Sails and Yellowfin. What would happen up here?

The interesting thing about these rigs is the way the hooks attach to the leader and the bell wire that is used to tie the mouth and gill covers closed and tie the mini bill to the leader.

Ballyhoo are a miscreation, a freak of nature. They have the same place in the food chain as the herring does here. They have a bill on the lower jaw and a small moveable upper jaw.

Why would a plankton eater need a bill?

Bruce, the perfect Marlin bait for here would be a small tuna 1 - 2 lbs rigged just like the ballyhoo you have coming in the mail. Someday, when I get a chance I will do another photo essay with my mates help on dead bait techniques and wire leader making.

Where can we find whole 1 - 2 lb Tuna?

Or even large Mackeral in the same size range?

Popeye · 09-12-2002, 07:51 AM

John,
I've used Ballyhoo also.... in Cabo, Cozumel, and off the coast of Belize. I realize that they are'nt indiginous to NE Pacific, but I can say that while tuna fishing off of Heceta Banks late last Sept. I actually saw a flying fish sailing along my starboard bow.
Bruce [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]

Threemuch · 09-12-2002, 08:59 AM

Sauries look alot like ballyhoo and are a major foodsource of pacific bluewater fish. Should work great. Problem with trolling bait is the same with plugs is you gots to go slow. You cover less water. Best as a dropback bait.

Marty · 09-12-2002, 09:35 AM

Trolling a marlin bait in the top 50 feet of water will get instantly eaten by a blue shark, especially at the speed you need to troll. We caught 2 blues on traps last trip out, but if we had bait they would be all over it. I think the only way to effectively troll for marlin would be large lures and I think you would have a much better chance to hook a blue fin than a marlin.

Here is some interesting temp ranges for species we want to target.

species low temp optimum high temp

albies 59 63 66
Bigeye 52 58 66
Bluefin 50 68 78
sailfish 68 80 88
stripped
marlin 61 70 80
swordfish 50 66 78
yellowfin 64 72 87

At the marine gas station in Depoe they have a picture of a 20 lb. female dorado they caught 5 miles off the beach. Don't know what the year was, but man would it be nice to have abunch of those running around.

Marty

fish assassin · 09-12-2002, 09:40 AM

Hey Marty,

Can you imagine what Frank would say if we were to
bring in a mess of dorado?? The poor guy would probably
wet himself!

:shocked:

Uglygreen · 09-12-2002, 10:21 AM

We do high speed bait trolls south all the time, we need to get some mackrel. I know and have the stuff to sew the bait on the hook, you can then do topwater troll at speeds similat to tuna trolling. No blue is gonna get into that. Ive caught mackrel while salmon fishing previous years near the CR bouy. Is or has anyone hit them thus year? My next choice would be a large sardene, with similar rigging. A spread of three rods, one large teaser in the middle with two baits on the outside.

REMEMBER, When a billfish hits, YOU MUST FREESPOOL, and wait for the fish to return and swollow the bait BEFORE setting the hook. These fish slash at and injure or stun prey with their bills, then come back around to swollow the bait. THE FIRST HIT IS ALMOST NEVER A TAKEDOWN. If you do not freespool and wait for the takedown you will miss billfish 90+ % of the time on a high speed troll.

UG

09-12-2002, 10:31 AM

I have a herring gill net. Would it be legal to use it out of state waters to catch bait? I also have a gill net (50 fathoms long) with 5-3/8" mesh for larger bait.

OceanBlue · 09-12-2002, 10:35 AM

It is my understanding that it is illegal to land fish in Oregon with gillnets. That implies that you can fish with them, you just can't land the fish in Oregon ports.

Anyone else?

09-12-2002, 10:38 AM

:grin: Works for me :grin:

OceanBlue · 09-12-2002, 12:06 PM

Hey Chum: Thanks for the info... Just curious, where'd you get it. PFMC web site has info dated 1999 and 2000 that says gillnets allowed (commercial fishery) on a limited basis in CA & OR, but not WA.

Another account that I (Dev. Fisheries Board/ODFW Marine resources) said that swordfish are caught off of Oregon, but not landed here because gillnets are illegal in Oregon... implying they're landed elsewhere.

Anywho... I'm glad to hear the info. Didn't like to think gillnets were being used here.

As far as Keta goes... he has everything! Just ask, he's probably got one. Doesn't mean he uses it :grin:

Only don't ask him if he's got a 6/0 Senator. He doesn't presently have one in his possession :grin:

Uglygreen · 09-12-2002, 12:23 PM

Yeah - Chumking - and you can only use one pole for Tuna as well. Ha Ha.

1) Oregon has no say outside 3 miles. No matter what OSP says, and yes this has been tested in court, State of Oregon vs. Damm, October 2000, I won.

2) The Federal Government has no rules regarding the recreational pursuit of Pelagic fishes in the Pacific Ocean. There is a draft management plan - probably at least a year or so from approval, but right now there are NO restrictions on United States registered boats in the recreational pursuit of pelagic fishes. (Tuna, Striped Marlin, Mackrel, Sardenes, Sauries, Etc...) Recreational means that you do not sell your catch, it is for "personal consumption".

UG

09-12-2002, 12:25 PM

I will have a LEFT HANDED 4/0 next week. :smile:

Chum King · 09-12-2002, 12:27 PM

Okay Keta keep on trying. :tongue:

However, it isn't legal to use a seine either. You could cut your seine material up into smaller pieces and make cast nets out of it.

From what I gather, cast nets aren't all that easy to operate effectively... even inshore, much less off a bouncing boat.

The rules that list the allowed fishing methods are on page 91 in the Oregon Sport Fishing Regulations (those rules apply to anyone out of an Oregon port).

I would think that if you can find a school of bait in sufficient quantity to use a cast net, that you would have better luck just dropping a couple of herring jigs for 10-20 minutes to load up with sardines or herring, and you're a lot less likely to foul your motor with a herring jig than a net. :shocked:

I did hear a report that at least one commercial boat had seen a large school of PacMacs within the last week. I'm not sure what the best method for catching them is, but I would probably try stripped fillets of herring or sardine on a #1 or #2 hook.
[img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img]
Good luck!

Salmonator · 09-12-2002, 12:36 PM

UG, is it outside of three miles for all species or just the pelagic critters? Barbed or barbless for salmon and that kind of stuff....

OceanBlue · 09-12-2002, 12:51 PM

Thanks CK - I guess that's my problem. I look to the web to provide the most up-to-date information.

By the way, the PFMC did update their information sheet in July of 2002, indicating that gill nets are tightly regulated in CA and OR. That they can be used in OR for swordfish, but not thresher shark.

So why is there so much conflicting information among the various agencies? It sure would be nice if someone was watching for consistency in web content.

Uglygreen · 09-12-2002, 12:54 PM

Samonator...

The state has no say outside 3 miles period. The state ends a 3 miles and so does its authority. Federal and international law.

The salmon rules are not state rules they are fedral rules adopted by the NMFS. They apply out to 200 miles. Yes you have to follow them. But OSP has no authority to enforce them outside 3 miles. There is a federal salmon management plan that is where the barbless hooks, etc... comes from.

There is no approved similar plan for pelagic fishes. Gear / limits / etc are unrestricted. The 25 fish limit for marine fin fishes applies to landings within the state, (washington has no such rule). How you get them is your own business outside 3 miles. OSP would probably argue this, but they have lost 3 cases I know about on this 3 mile issue.

Uglygreen

Chum King · 09-12-2002, 01:58 PM

OSP can enforce the salmon rules (and groundfish that are covered under management plans) inside and outside of 3 miles. The federal regulations spell it out and define authorized officers to include "any officer designated by the head of any Federal or state agency that has entered into an agreement with the Secretary and the Commandant of the USCG to enforce the provisions of the Magnuson-Stevens Act or any other statute administered by NOAA." That includes OSP.

I am very curious as to what three cases UG is referring to that were lost. I have read a legal interpretation from the Oregon Attorney General's office a few years back that stated that anglers (or vessels) licensed by the State of Oregon were subject to the angling rules of Oregon if they were leaving from and returning to an Oregon port, and were within state or adjacent federal waters.

Certainly this is muddy enough territory that the Attorney General's office may have been off base. And then too maybe that opinion was based on the salmon regulations only. UG do you have any more specifics?

Uglygreen · 09-12-2002, 06:03 PM

Chumking -

The state of Oregon does not exist and has no authority outside 3 miles.

OSP can enforce STATE regs inside the state. (0-3 miles)

OSP can enforce FEDERAL regs outside the state (3-200 miles), but ONLY if they are a sworn officer of the NMFS as well as a sworn officer of the OSP.

OSP can NOT enforce STATE regulations in or on FEDERAL waters. That is where they lose.

There are NO FEDERAL REGULATIONS regarding the recreational pursuit of PELAGIC fin fishes.

OSP can NOT enforce FEDERAL regulations that do not exist, period. (no one can)

STATE regulations do not apply to FEDERAL waters, FEDRAL regulations do apply to STATE waters.

Salmon and Halibut regulations are FEDERAL, not state.

The case I won was regarding the (unintentional) use of barbed hooks for Salmon at about 5 miles out. The OSP officer who wrote me the ticked was not a sworn NMFS officer and the case was thrown out on this basis.

Note: some OSP officers are sworn NMFS officers some are not.

The other two cases regarded OSP trying to enforce state regulations on federal waters. One case was regarding the number of poles per angler for salmon. Inside 3 miles, state regulations provide that only one pole may be used per angler. Outside 3 miles federal regulations make no such provision, or didn't at that time. The OSP wrote tickets for more than one pole per angler, outside 3 miles, and lost. Had OSP wrote such tickets inside the 3 mile limit, they would have been valid. I dont remember the specifics of the 3rd case, but it was something similar.

Gambleing is illegal in Oregon and most states for Non-Indian, Non-State, for profit operatins.

Cruise ships must keep the doors of the casion closed inside 3 miles, and once outside that state territory, can open them. If OSP tried to bust the cruise ship for an illegal gambleing operation outside 3 miles they would lose. Similar scenairo to fishing. I can lookup the case number of the case I won, and make some phone calls regarding the other two, If its really important.

State and federal rules are different, and each applies to specific areas. The only Federal recreational rules I know of cover halibut and salmon. I know for a fact that there are none regarding pelagic fish. Federal rules define recreational vs. commercial use as personal vs. selling your catch. If you dont sell it, it isnt commercial under the federal regulations.

I would like to reag the AG opinion you mention if possible. And note that I am not really a lawyer, I just play one on the computer.

OSP will tell you that they can regulate any fish caught darn near anywhere in the western hemisphere.... or the whole world, but they are overreaching... which is not unknown for that agency.

UG

[ 09-12-2002, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Uglygreen ]

Orca · 09-12-2002, 08:20 PM

What then do the Federal regs have to say about party fishing for Salmon at 3+ miles?

Crashin' Bait · 09-12-2002, 08:53 PM

What entity is the enforcement outside of the three-mile zone?

Mark Mc · 09-12-2002, 09:02 PM

Keta: earlier this year I had a lengthy conversation with a key person at the Developmental Fisheries Board, regarding various options for harvesting bait commercially. Please e-mail me so I can share this with you, and discuss your nets with you.

Regarding mackeral for bait, our little Chinese grocery store here in Corvallis has both the pacific mackeral (about one pound each), and some long & skinny ones called eel mackeral. Those of you in Portland should be able to find these easily at the Asian grocery stores there.

MarkMc e-mail marknursula@proaxis.com

Uglygreen · 09-12-2002, 09:21 PM

1) Define "party fishing"?

2) Coast Guard, NMFS, OSP (but only those sworn as NMFS officers), and only federal regulations apply. Of which there are none for Pelagic Fishes.

3) Thanks for the tip on Pacific Mackrel, Ill go find one, bait it up, and post some pictures of the sewing method.

Deepslayer · 09-12-2002, 10:14 PM

Thanks Uglygreen. I can hardly wait. Do you knit too? :grin: Sorry I couldn't resist. Seriously I would like to see the pictures.
,Ed

Chum King · 09-12-2002, 10:35 PM

Ugly: Thanks for that input about the cases. I guess you're lucky that it wasn't a NMFS agent that got you with the barbed hooks that day. I do know that NMFS changed the wording on the federal salmon regulations to identify areas off Oregon and Washington (and I believe N. CA) that are restricted to one line while fishing for salmon.

I'll try and see if I can find a copy of the AG's opinion... but like I said it has been several years.

Orca: One rod to an individual for salmon outside of three.

Pilar's Mate: Yeah I forgot about the boats that fish off Oregon (outside three miles) for swordfish and then land back into CA. I believe that they cannot legally land their catch in Oregon because of the gear used.

Hey, let's get back to fishing!

Chum King · 09-12-2002, 11:05 PM

Gillnets are not allowed as a legal method for any recreational use. Period.

They also are not allowed to be used in any ocean commercial fishery off Oregon. Period.

It doesn't matter if you bring the fish back to port or not. You can use either a dip net, a cast net, or hook and line for marine "bait fish".
Sorry to rain on the parade, but I don't think you want to explain what you're doing with illegal gear. :shocked:

09-12-2002, 11:29 PM

:shocked: :depressed: :shocked:

I also have the makings for a 50 fathomX 15 fathom seine net :grin:

Orca · 09-13-2002, 07:11 AM

UG / CK

The Party Fishing I am referring to is the art of keeping all of your poles in use until everyone on the boat has tagged their 2 salmon or 1 halibut. Illegal in Oregon, Legal in Washington, and practiced near universally on Charters and many private vessels as near as I can tell.

[ 09-13-2002, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: Orca ]

Chum King · 09-13-2002, 08:42 AM

ORCA,
I think you've got the gist of the regulation on party fishing. Since both halibut and salmon are managed under the Magnuson Act (federal law) the regs are in effect out to 200 miles. The party fishing/boat limit in WA is legal. Off Oregon, the party fishing/boat limit approach is still illegal (even out to 200 miles), although there has been discussions about changing it and making it legal.
Ugly Green is right on the mark about tuna in WA, they have no regulations at all for tuna. In Oregon, you are limited to 25 misc. marine species including tuna, and there are other gear restrictions that definitely apply inside 3 miles (one line per person, handlines affixed to the boat are prohibited, and chumming is prohibited). Ugly Green has some very good arguments about why these rules don't apply outside of three miles. I am looking into this a bit more to try and get a definitive answer.

Chum King · 09-13-2002, 10:57 AM

Okay, I have tracked down a copy of the AG's opinion on the state's authority to regulate ocean fishing occurring outside of three miles.

According to the opinion from Cheryl Coon, Assistant Attorney General dated May 3, 1996:
Question 1: What is ODFW's jurisdiction over fishing in the extraterritorial zone of the Pacific Ocean?
Short Answer: ODFW generally has no regulatory jurisdiction beyond Oregon's three-mile territorial sea boundary into the Pacific Ocean, and federal law can preempt Oregon fishing regulations even within that three-mile boundary. Under the Magnuson Act, however, ODFW can regulate vessels that are "registered" in Oregon beyond its territorial sea as long as such regulation does not conflict with federal regulation or fishery management plans. The Oregon Attorney General's office has defined "registered" broadly, and if a vessel is "registered" in more than one state, all states in which the vessel is registered can regulate its fishing.

Since the federal gov't does not have recreational tuna regulations, then the regulations of Oregon would apply to Oregon registered boats. There are a number of "common practices" in tuna fishing that are violations of Oregon fishing regulations including: Multiple lines per angler, chumming, and using handlines attached to the boat. It would probably be a good idea for "Salty Dogs" to put together a regulation proposal for the Oregon Fish and Wildlife Commission to change the regs and make what they are already doing legal.

UG: If you want more on that AG's opinion, e-mail me.

avid · 09-13-2002, 12:09 PM

corroid,

You are going to need a galley on your fishhunter to prepare those tuna and then a large crew to eat them as you can't land them anywhere. I guess you could row to an atoll in the South Pacific and go ashore but that would like "hauling coal to Newcastle." There would be fish everywhere around you. Making sushi would be an option. I think most people would be hard pressed to eat even a peanut's worth of sushi.

Deepslayer · 09-13-2002, 12:48 PM

Hey Corrirod, just tow the raft behind the main boat at 7knots. I know jsut about everyone who tuna fishes uses more than one line per person and uses hand lines. I have never heard of anyone being busted for this practice, and I will continue to use hand lines. Oregon may be able to regulate vessels and landings, but if they try to regulate fishing techniques beyond 3 miles that conflict with federal laws they don't have a leg to stand on. IMHO.
,Ed

Miss B Haven · 09-13-2002, 11:08 PM

Chum King - Great info and proposal. It sounds from a previous post on this thread that they have considered it and may be very open to discussion.

Orca · 09-13-2002, 11:11 PM

CK,

Great idea! Gives us continued interaction with ODFW and allows us to be in the driver's seat. We need to look at this issue and others as well. Other issues include the Party Fishing issue, Halibut season timing, and some others I had in mind recently, but have completely forgotten at the moment.

corrirod · 09-13-2002, 11:51 PM

So.........let me think about this........

I've got it! I'll take my rubber raft with me (2 man, not registered in any state), when I get to Tuna town I'll throw it overboard, tie on 2 handlines and put 2 poles in the holders, and start rowing! I'll fill the raft up with tuna then tow it back to port with the big boat! Ha, I knew there was a way to buck the system!

Not sure about my ability to row at 7 knots though. :depressed: :grin:

Well, gotta go get the VHF mounted in the Sevylor "FishHunter 360" (my raft) now. Please try to keep the wake down if you see me out there!