SNELL knot second hook problems

[Troller]

I was fishing this last weekend we had a three day fishery for sockeye salmon in lake washington. Problem was the first day I lost a few hooks on the rigs I tied. It was allways the bottom hook that I tied on first that broke. I was using 25 pound test that was new so a 6 pound salmon should not have broken the line. The second day I retied all to 50 pound test and did not have a problem and caught all 7 bites we had. I must be doing something wrong here is what I did. First I tied the bottom hook on using a snell knot I ran the hook thru the eye then made a loop with the short loose end at the bottom of the hook wrapped 10 times then pulled the short end to take up the slack. Now on the second hook the one higher up on the line I ran the line up thru the eye and made a loop of all the line with the first hook just below this hook and wraped 10 times then pulled up the slack line thru the top. At looking at the setup afterwards it appears that the line to the bottom hook is pulled across the bottom loop of the top hook and breaking at that point. When tying this should I have made my slack line on the first hook longer so that I could use it to tie another hook to it using a snell. Also if anyone can tell me how to tie a sliding top hook that would be great as that is what I wanted to do in the first place but when I tied the snell knot on it and trimmed the ends and applied some pressure it would just unravel and slide down to the first hook.

[pirk fan]

I'm not sure how you're tying your snell, but for a slider top hook, the separate piece of line used to fasten the hook to the leader is just whipped on the hook, then pulled tight - no way should it just unravel, I'd take a look at how to do a whipped snell (if you tie flies, this is the same procedure as doing a whipped finish on the fly's head).

[TeamYeeha]

Troller :smile: Make sure you are adding a few loops below the eyelet of the hook then start wrapping your line as this will protect your line from that pinch point where the eyelet is folded around. If you don't do this it will tend to cut your line under heavy tension. :blush: If that does'nt make since take a look at some from the tackle shop.
Hope that helps :smile:

[MasterCaster]

Here is a page I got from someone else on here that shows alot of different knots. It might help you out.
fishing knots

Jon :smile: :grin: :smile:

I can tie them but I can't splane how.

Use an egg loop knot ( egg loop link) for the bottom then run the line threw the second hook. With a piece of lighter line tie another egg loop or uni knot around the hook and line.

[ 08-01-2002, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Troller]

thanks for the help I looked at the link and will retie that way and see how it works. Certainly wont do any worse than I was.

[Pitch Pocket]

ALWAYS wrap the line "backward" on a snell so the first loop around the eye of the hook does not loop around the end of the wire. It will cut your line. If you wrap backwards, the first loop is around the smooth part. A little tricky at first, but worth the effort.

Wrapping forward, if you look closely, you will see that the line is right up against the end of the hook wire and it is sharp. On some hooks, you can feel it. With lighter weight lines, it can wedge in.

I also wrap 13 times. Same number on a hangmans noose. I don't know why, it just sounds good.

[Hookset]

Ok, my 2 cents.

I've stopped using snell knots many moons ago. Either wrapping up or down, didn't matter. For big heavy fish, this knot never held very well for me. I repeat, this is my experince and one shared by some guide friends I know.

Keta's got it right. Learn to tie an egg loop knot. Without a doubt, the best knot I know for handling multiple pound fish. Of course, you should always check your line after each fish. I've even fished with people who change leaders after 1 fish.

For a 2 hook mooching leader, cut the lenght of leader material you like. Tie on the bottom hook first with an egg loop knot. Slide the 2nd hook down, figure out your gap between hooks, then tie on the 2nd hook using another egg loop knot. For the slider, use a 2nd piece of leader and wrap around the main leader, again using an egg loop knot. A word of caution...is your not careful keeping your wraps tight and in line, a coil could slip underneath when pulling tight. And, if you wrap to tight, you can burn and fray the line. What works best is to keep the line lubricated with a little water and/or watch your line tension when wrapping.

As for slip hooks, I really don't like to use them if I can avoid it. If you hook a large fish on the top hook, the 2nd hook slids down on top of the lower hook at an odd angle, making it easier for the leader to snap with the added pressure. Instead, I use solid tie 2 hook setups and gauge the size of the bait to determine the gap between hooks. I'd rather not leave anything to chance when you finally hook into a trophy size chinook. I hope this helps.

Best of luck with your salmon,

Gregg

[Pitch Pocket]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a snelled hook an egg loop tie without the egg loop? Why tie an egg loop when you aren't using eggs?

[crabbait]

In my opinion, Hookset got it just right.

The "egg loop when you are not using eggs" provides a cushion for the line to lay on as it is routed out the eye. Very rare for this knot to fail when properly tied and that means lubed and tightened. Any kinks or abrasions........start over.

For chinook mooching rigs, I tie a 6/0 below a 5/0 so that the tail of a plug cut Purple label is even with the free swinging 6/0. When fishing three rods, I want 12 of these tied and pre-sharpened for a days fishing. The fish is almost always on the bottom hook and it is not unusual to have the upper hook hang in the net as the bruiser is sliding to the bottom.

Don't waste time trying to retrieve that hook. Just cut the leader and tie on the next rig. Get back to fishin while you are still on 'em and they are feeling cooperative.

[Hookset]

SJP,

We could both be calling a snell something different, not really sure. The way I tied snell knots, line ran through the eye, make a loop, then twist the line around the shank wrapping either from the eye down or bend in shank up. Either way, you end up with a critical loop next to the eye, not good. The egg loop does form a loop, but most important, creates a cushion of excess wraps behind the eye. These excess wraps protect the working knot which is cinched down right behind the extra loops. If your not using eggs, you won't need 10 to 15 wraps behind the eye. Most of the time I'll just wrap 5 or 6 for a cushion.

Another great knot to use for tying swivels, is the Palomar. Very strong knot, much stronger then the cinch or improved cinch, also called the trilene knot or Berkley knot, think I got this right. The Palomar forms two loops around the eye and provides almost a 100% line strenght knot, unlike the cinch.

If you learn to tie both the egg loop and the palomar knots, you'll have about 80% of your fishing covered concerning line connections.

Hey, isn't this fun? Re-thinking some of the basic principals we often take for granted, also one of THE most important.

enjoy,

Gregg

[Pitch Pocket]

I snell a hook using the egg loop knot without the egg loop. Any way you tie it, you have a loop (they are all critical with a 40 lb chinook attached) next to the eye.

I insert the line through the eye going back and before making any wraps, I insert the other end through the eye coming forward, just like you do with an egg loop after making a few wraps for the skein. Then I make my hangmans wrap (13 times backward).

With an egg loop, you do have the cushion, but the line is actually rubbing on the eye of the hook when a fish is attached. If you begin your wraps over the line immediately with no cushion, the line never comes in contact with the eye and there is no rub point.

Not a huge deal, as I use an egg loop all the time in the Trask and have landed 40 lbers with no problem. I just like to play the odds correctly. If I have a contact point where the line is rubbing on a piece of metal, sooner or later it may cause a lost fish.

[Hookset]

Steve,

I understand where your at, maybe it doesn't matter at all with your method of tying. I've always preferred a little cushion, most mooching rigs only recieve apx. 5 wraps before passing the leader back through.

The old snell I used was probably called something else, the line was looped around the shank using two fingers, not a very good not at all.

Gregg

[Pirate]

crabbait,

I tie a 6/0 below a 5/0 so that the tail of a plug cut Purple label is even with the free swinging 6/0

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I have seen mooching rigs tied with the smaller hook at the tail and some with the larger hook at the tail. What is the reasoning for one way or the other. I usually have the smaller hook trailing.

I don't know why but I always have the larger hook the first tied. Just the way I was taught.

I also have a double line between the back ook and the front hook. I do this by leaving a long end on the first knot then running the and through the eye of the first hook.
Then after I determine the hook spacing with the second hook I run the end through the eye of the second hook. I then fold the end back over the shank of the second hook (on the opposite side of the split in the eye. Then I tie another egg loop over the line and the shank of the second hook. Trim the end

.

[ 08-06-2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[Pitch Pocket]

Hookset, if you look at the two knots, except for the loop, they are the same. One way to tie them is over the hook and one way is over the eye. Normally an egg loop is tied over the eye. I tie them both over the eye. One disadvantage of tying them over the eye is the length of leader you have to pull through the loops. It can get hot and fray. Tying them over the hook exposes less mono to friction. I don't like tying it that way either. I just take it real easy and pull it slow and make sure it's lubed.

Both the egg loop and the straight snell have nearly 100% strength. I think the egg loop is very slightly more risky because of the line rubbing the eye. With 40# test, it probably isn't an issue, but I've lost a few at the hook so if I don't need the loop, I leave it off. Just my own twisted logic.

[Hookset]

Steve,

I know exactly what your talking about, I tie hooks with the same mehod and have the same concerns pulling the extra leader through. On many occasions I've had to re-tie after getting a litlle careless. Agree, a great knot equal to line strenght.

So many times we end up discussing a particular issue and find we're really describing the same thing.

So how fast can you tie 50 solid tie mooching rigs?

As for the large hook on top and small hook on bottom.....or vice versa, I know the recommended practice is large hook on top. And with vallied reasons, like bait fish are thicker along the back bone near the head, larger hooks help with more bite. And I'm convinced silvers strike at bait fish right behind the head. Have you ever missed a fish and checked the bait, usually bite marks start right behind the head. A larger hook here helps.

Instead of worrying about larger versus smaller, top or bottom. I keep both hooks the same and match the hook to the bait size and fish I'm targeting. For Chinooks, nothing smaller then 5/0 and most of the time 6/0 and even 7/0 with really large baits. Silvers I'll use 4/0 or 5/0, again, determined by bait size. I want enough bite when a fish comes calling. Whatever hook you use, make it sticky sharp and check often, which may be the most important aspect anyway.

have fun,

Gregg

[Pitch Pocket]

Gregg,
I've gotten to where I can tie a hook pretty fast. I'm sure you've noticed the line twist that you get when you do your wraps. I pre-twist the line in the opposite direction before I put the end in the eye of the hook forward (if that makes sense). Then after the 13 or so wraps, the line is straight, not twisted, and it pulls through the wraps easier. I think it gives you less of a chance to "burn" the line if the mono is relaxed and not all bound up. Just be sure to keep spit on it. :tongue:

As far as the hook sizes, I put a barbless 6/0 gamagatsu through my hand all the way to the bend a couple of weeks ago. Pretty weird looking at your hand with a hook through it.

I was very surprised how easy it came out. Now I'm not surprised how these fish come off the hook. Without the barb, the larger hooks make a pretty big hole that is the largest where the hook stops penetrating. I've been thinking about staying with the smaller wire 4/0 and 5/0 hooks if we have to use barbless.

I always tie the small hook to the rear. Someone told me that the spin is negatively affected by a heavier hook in the back. With the RSK holder and fresh bait, I'm not sure it really matters, but I hate to mess with success.

If I'm cut-plugging, I want the meat hook in the shoulder of the herring with the point sticking out on top. A smaller hook does not give you as much exposure.

[crabbait]

Pirate - I target chinook exclusively. I wnat a hook that will handle fish over 40lbs. The vast majority of fish I catch are hooked on the bottom hook.

The bottom hook is for fish, the upper hook is to hang the plugcut on. (I still sharpen them both)

[BUGLEMAN]

I agree the larger hook in the rear affects the spin. I think it acts like a rudder. I also like more hook sticking out of the shoulders of my cut plug.

As far as snelling, I tried the upside down snell. Wrapping from the eye down (like the finish to the egg loop) instead of wrapping loops over the hook and had a failer on Tuesday. It was a low tension pop. Someone else was talking about this method. I felt wierd when tying it and should have known better. But that is me trying to reinvent thousands of years of fishing experience. I should have known better when it wasn't in my fishing knot book.

So, as far as the egg loop, have any of you experienced line separation at the point where the egg loop dives under the snell. I have, too many times. Am I snugging the loops up too tight? I always lube and try to pull carefully. Wrapping is an art. Too loose and it winds up - too tight then burn and peel.

Also in the Snell and the especially the egg loop, how important is it prevent the lines under the loops from crossing. The main line and the loop return line. I think it is very important but difficult at times to get to lay right.

I hate to tie over the hook so it looks like low tension egg loops on my mooching riggs for now.

[Pitch Pocket]

I only tie over the eye. Just habit I guess. I don't have line failures at the hook probably because of the care I take when tying it. I also don't make my hook leaders any longer than about 24-30" to the chain bead swivel (for salmon) so I'm not pulling 6' of leader through the wraps. I've never had a problem unless I get in a hurry.

I wrap relatively loose (but not too loose) and pull the main line slowly through the wraps with moisture of some kind while holding the bend of the hook. Not too tight.

Then I take a pair of pliers or hemostats and hold on to the tag end and pull hard on the main line to snug the whole thing up. If you don't, you have loose wraps around the eye.

Tying the knot quickly is a relative thing. You have to take your time, make sure the loops don't overlap. If you screw it up, do it over. It's not worth the risk.

[Troller]

WOW this is great info and for my next ?. How do you prefer to hook your hearing. I have never used a cut plug allways whole and used a slider to put a curve so it would spin. I would guess that the cut does that for you. I think that I would but the first hook all the way thru then pull it out the other side then put top hook in the hole i just made and let the back one hang???

With a whole hering I put the bend by the placement of my fixed hooks in the bait. I usualy use plug cut or strips.