Official 'shared expenses' guidelines

[Pilar]

Well alright. I sure hate to see this group at odds with each other. We have a small boat charter captain raising some issues related to taking your buddies fishing. There is nothing wrong with that. Thanks for bringing it up ... Again. I totally concur with the dead horse thread marker comment. We need to work on that and tie the word filter to it RE: North River, Merc. vs Volvo, this subject and so on.

Or to put it another way here's a place to put in your two cents on guidelines to follow for sharing your boat with others or riding on such a trip.

With any luck we can develop something along the lines of the tunaholic twelve steps. Just kidding. All kidding aside it may be possible to develop some simple rules to follow so we can all stay out of trouble. In my opinion this is mostly about perceptions. It is possible that people see money changing hands and then make some assumptions about illegal chartering. In any case that is never my intent when I fish with my buddies.

I fish with my buddies for several reasons.

I) Fishing alone on the ocean is dangerous.
II) The boat is much easier to run when you have a mate or two to help.
III) More fish can be caught as limits are usually per fisher.
IV) The work is easier and the costs lighter when many hands share the load.
V) Someone took me fishing for the first time and I found out that I liked it. I feel honor bound to do the same for others. You can't go sit in a classroom to become a saltwater cowboy. You must go out on a boat and some go out on my boat.

Now for guidelines. These are just suggestions please add yours whether rider or driver.

1) I will only fish with those I have a relationship with.

Obviously this is not true for first timers. Personally, I will not fish with all strangers on my boat. I have been pleasantly surprised the few times I did but it is not safe IMHO. So I think it is ok to include a new guy with some of my regular team on the boat. We are establishing a relationship. If new guy falls in love with the ocean and we all get along I will be happy to call on him again. New guy gets the benefit of experienced crew in the pit that have time to teach. We all get to see Joe off the street become a TUNA! fisher.

2) Work will be shared by all hands.

Part of my trip with anyone is education. My job is to be a coach and to be responsible for the safety of the people on my boat. I do this by making the boat as good as I can make it, adequate insurance, using my skills, experience and judgement. Some are unaware of the PIA and complexity of owning and operating a boat. I make sure that is not the case when they fish with me. People have different skills. As Skipper I gladly accept any help from any rider and value all help equally. Many hands make light work.

3) The success or other outcome of the trip is shared by all hands.

To me it really does not matter if the trip is canceled due to weather or breakdown or we go out and stack em high. For the day in question the crew on my boat is a team and I am thier coach and mentor. Maybe we spend a few minutes at the ramp discussing weather forecasters, maybe we dig clams or maybe the day ends at midnight in bloody exhaustion and full coolers. We are a team for that day and hopefully many more, team 'Kismet'.

4) Besides safety .. Coaching and skills development is number one.

I will always make this a priority. Whether this is practice at the wheel, running the cockpit, ice and fish management, launching procedure, radio use or electronics. When I fish with people I show them what I do and explain why. I also watch out for new things because I am curious and have learned a great deal from other fishers.

5) Recovery is a team effort.

I expect as the leader to be rewarded for my efforts by forming a team before the day is out. At the end of the day my team will restore the boat to a condition (within reason) suitable for the next fishing trip. For me this is the most rewarding thing. A group of people go fishing and by the end of the day they are working together. I am fortunate to have a private washdown facility and storage at the coast. I leave my boat there all summer. So when the trip is over I am leaving my boat at the beach.

When I come back in a week it is very important that things are ready to go. The boat is fueled, clean and in good repair. All I have to do is throw some food and ice on and go out with my next team. Sometimes that means I have repairs to make. And even less often I have a team member that has skills that can help with the problem. I accept that help gratefully if it is at all possible.


Thats all I am thinking about when I fish. As the 4th generation of fishers in my line I already know at a genetic level that 'getting rich' and fishing have no place in the same sentence. I have no such expectations and never will.

I am fishing with my buddies, plain and simple. At a spiritual level I am sharing the largest living thing on the planet with others. And in some cases I am facilitating a relationship between a budding mariner and the sea that may last a lifetime.

What are your ideas?

[yeep740]

I don't come over to the salty board very often, but I see a lot of this open seat talk.

As a first timer going on a boat, I would expect to help out pay for whatever was used for the day (ie, gas, ice, gear, bait), if not bring some of that myself. I would ask if I could bring anything as well. It would be a learning experience for me, so I would be willing to help out in anyway possible. I LOVE fishing, and fishing entails more than just putting the line in the water, its being/getting prepared for the trip, cleaning, asking if there was anything I could do to help. I would probably ask questions about things I was not familiar with and wanted to learn. Like stated before, try and learn as much as possible while being as much of a help as possible. Most likely it would cost less than a charter, and I would expect it would be more of an intimate situation, rather than party boat style, and I would hope to build relationships with people, hoping to become fishing buddies! I hope someday I get the chance to fish with some of you Salties, and get the "salt bug"!

Brandon

[34Baidarka]

I agree...I've fished alone....not in the salt, but up around Tounge point.
Doable, but a pain in the arse. Jumping off the flybridge to land a fish when a freighter is approaching..a bit edgy in my book.

I took my son, his friend...by brother..his two kids...my daughter and her boyfriend all out Sunday...no one offered to help pay for gas...bait...ice or what ever. They got their license (required on my ship)...they help dock yhe boat..clean up etc..all good.
I am fine with it. The time spent with them was worth more then the $150 in gas I dropped in...watching them puke over the side...priceless.

[jamescaird]

One of the reasons I don't have many posts on Ifish is Pilar's post, I can't add anything, it pretty much says it all. When one can't add any additional info on a topic may as well watch and learn especially on subjects such as rules and regs and safety. But these recent threads on sharing expenses and open seats touched a nerve.

In 30 years of fishing Oregon inland and coastal waters I've never met a sportfisher,boat owner who turned a profit from their passion. Anyone who does is not sportfishing.I guess I've been in some good company.

My guidelines are simple,everything's known beforehand. Expenses are shared,exceptions yes no problem going from a 4to3 or 3to2 split. Help prepping or cleaning the boat isn't needed but good company especially on the drive home is a must.

Guidelines on shared expenses and open seats can be simple. We tend to make things more complicated than necessary.

[fyshndad]

As I talked about in a different post
This year I will not take cash at the dock
Instead my crew will follow me to the gas station and pay for the fuel used that day
If they want to donate a few $$ for oil ice or what ever just fold it up and stuff it in my shirt pocket I do not need to know how much is given and I will not ask for it

Clean the boat as best they can while I clean fish and after gassing up they can follow me to where I keep my boat and help wash the salt off

Sometimes I do not ask for help as it is pretty quick & easy to do it myself but other times I am in pain or too tired and then I want help to finish up

Without other expectations I will not be dissapointed or frustrated
As my dear Father taught me K.I.S.S.

[adobe wall]

Can't add anything to Pilar's post except that the original "heads up" post by Nalu has me a bit concerned. That thread repeatedly states that this board should amend the AUP or develop rules so that none of our (iFishers') behaviour can be construed as illegal chartering.

I agree with Pilar's guidelines and like the spirit of that post.

As for amending the AUP- no way. iFish has no responsibility for the actions of it's members. No more than Craig's List has responsibility for the stuff that goes on there. This is Jenny's board and trying to somehow make iFish responsible for what a very small minority of members might be doing is just wrong.

regards, aw

[HiTekRdNek]

I can only add that I'm in total agreement with what has been said.
It is the ocean and the sport I wish to share. Passing on what has been taught to me by others.

[Smoked Salmon]

As far as I am concerned there are only two rules.

1. Expenses need to be discussed prior to the trip to decide what is being shared. This is a private matter between captain and crew.

2. The captain is responsible for knowing the laws, and follows them as they will.

That's it.

[Nalu]

Originally Posted by adobe wall

Can't add anything to Pilar's post except that the original "heads up" post by Nalu has me a bit concerned. That thread repeatedly states that this board should amend the AUP or develop rules so that none of our (iFishers') behaviour can be construed as illegal chartering.

I agree with Pilar's guidelines and like the spirit of that post.

As for amending the AUP- no way. iFish has no responsibility for the actions of it's members. No more than Craig's List has responsibility for the stuff that goes on there. This is Jenny's board and trying to somehow make iFish responsible for what a very small minority of members might be doing is just wrong.

regards, aw

I never intended to amend anything with regard to the AUP. If it appeared that way, then my apologies. What I meant by "Policy" was just as Pilar has done here. A sort of agreement of sorts between Salty Dogs that helps define for both skippers and open seats fillers what should be acceptable or not acceptable practices. Again my apologies for the confusion, I thought I had made that clear, but apparently I did not.

Example: Acceptable to split expenses for the day evenly between all those on the boat. Not-acceptable: Telling a person that responds to an open seat that they need to pay $125 even though the fuel, bait, and ice cost might only be $300 and there are 5 people aboard.

[TJfirebug]

I am a person that does not have a boat of my own but loves to out on the water fishing. I like go out with a few friends and people that are just out to have fun and enjoy the day on the water. I do not mind helping out in what ever way I can with gas food bait ect. and it is ALWAYS safer to go out with someone that can help if things go wrong.

[Pilar]

Bump for the TA newbies. Attending your first TA meeting may lead to meeting people that think taking new guys fishing is fun.

Psssssst. Here's a hint. Don't say you are inexperienced at TUNA! fishing too loudly .. they might fight over the right to take you on your first trip.

[Sea Jypzee]

As much as I'd love to make it tonight, having to be up at 5am (back here in Depoe Bay) in the morning for work tomorrow wouldn't be real conducive for me to make that kind of drive late at night.

LOL oh well, wrong thread. You get the point.

[playinghooke]

I would like to start off by saying This is one of the best forum boards I have ever belonged to.The information aquired on this site is some of the best you will ever find. I am a Lic. Oregon Charter & Wa. State Guide. One of the things I get asked about alot is people wanting to start their own Charter or guide buiseness. I tell them its great fun seeing newbies catch their 1st. ever fish. I think thats why alot of captains on this board love to take first timers fishing, You just can't describe the joy and happieness it brings to both partys involved. I've met alot of people over the last 18yrs of my profession, but their is one elderly man that has left a deep empression in my life. He is approx. 75 now in age, and has been fishing with me for approx 12yrs now. This man loves to fish he does 2-3 trips a year with me. He had somthing happen to him about 15 years ago that I wouldn't want to happen to anyone. He lost his wife,best friend,bestfriends wife. on a fishing trip, that ended badly. Now this is where the really bad starts to happen.( LIABILITY ) Because they had a forever policy of putting money under the ashtray on the dash of the boat for expences. His insurance considered him taking people out for hire which was not covered. When his freinds family sued him He lost everything and I mean everything. I know that I have to purchase special insurance just for this purpose. So I write this to help protect the very same people that I am,True Fisherman that love to take people fishing. Don't stop taking first timers out we owe to them its our expertise that brings them back. Just please protect yourself. now go Whack em Guys

[Aaron97759]

As an off-shore boat owner, I completely agree with Pilar's guidlines. And would add that most (if not all) that have joined me for a day on the ocean are more than happy to share, or even exceed, the amount of help and "chipping in" that I would expect. It's never anything that's really been discussed in a quantitative way. These guys all know that I not only bought the boat, but I also maintain, insure, and equip it... and I'm giving them an opportunity to enjoy a day on the ocean that would otherwise require a boat of their own or a charter. 99% of the time I'm being told that I should ask for more (fuel $, help, etc). So, it never seems to be an issue for me to find solid people to join me out there.

I will also say that as much as I'd often like to take another guy or two with me, the idea of offering an open seat to someone I don't know hasn't really occured to me as a good idea. You just never really know what you're getting into (sometimes even w/ people you DO know!), and 30 miles out it's hard to deal with someone you don't know that gets sick and wants to go in RIGHT NOW, or can't get their fish and wants to go longer, or whatever. That's what charters have to deal with, and are paid accordingly for.

Having said all that, a stranger is just someone I haven't met yet... and I really enjoy all the personalities and stories that come with meeting other tuna-holics out there. So if you see a black & grey NR Seahawk O/S with Honda's down in Newport or Garibaldi... please come over and introduce yourself. I'm sure we'll become fast friends.

Aaron
24' NR Seahawk O/S
"Marcella Rose"

[colbachlaw]

I would never have learned how to fish for tuna if Odin and Smoked Salmon had not taken a chance and taken a stranger out fishing for tuna. Even after I got my own boat, Odin always took the time to tell me when to check my ego at the dock and think about staying home to fish another day. I hope to pass his advice on to others.

I have taken out complete strangers and had some great times and found some new crew members for the days I can't get my regulars out or have space for one more.

I am appreciative of everyone who has pitched in for gas and carked fish while I watched from the flybridge. I appreciate every stranger who has got on the air and called in the hot bite so the rest of us could join in.

I donate a few trips a year to charity auctions (police activities league and habitat for humanity) and these are some of the best trips ever, as I get to watch someone catch their first tuna.

I got a lot of help from a lot of dogs and will always try to pass it on to the next tuna addict to be. I burn just as much gas with 4 guys as I do with five and I can't eat all the tuna I catch, so I will continue to offer open seats to salty dogs I don't know, as I was one of them a few years ago.

Time to go fishing and quit worrying about who pays what. I just want some flat seas and bloody decks.

Mike C

[Scott Johnson]

I have learned a lot from this board and love to sit back and lurk as these conversations progress this one has had an interesting evolution so to speak from a rough and tumble bar room atmosphere to a relaxed and confident sharing expierence so the only other thing I have to add is a well done to all and If I might add 1 thing to pillars points it is alchol should be clearly discussed prior to taking a newbie out I had a bad expierence once upon a very long time ago when a fellow I took out of Westport pulled out a bottle and procedded to get loaded on the way back into port no problem except I knew he was planning on driving back to Tacoma that night and I took issue with that!

[Sea Jypzee]

One thing that I do with all new riders on my boat is send a pre-written introductory PM/email that describes the boat in fairly good detail. (it is rather lengthy) It lists all the equipment, some of my background fishing, etc. I also clearly explain that alcohol or drugs are not acceptable. I then outline the fuel use expectations, not actually asking for a set amount of money, but just letting them know the approximate current price of fuel, and roughly how much fuel to expect to burn. They can take it from there as to figuring out how much to expect to contribute.

I got this idea from another Salty Dog (Mr. Fisherman) here, and just modified it to my own needs. It helps to answer most any question the new crew member may have, and hopefully gives them some valuable information. I also give them multiple methods of contacting me in case of any other questions or late notice problems.

I then return directly to the fuel dock upon return to port, before even returning to the slip.

[Cliff D.]

Excellent post John.

[id. painter]

id. p.