Round up

[Jennie@ifish]

It's a constant battle around here.

I don't like the idea of round up in my garden.

I caught Bill using it where he put the new artichokes in. It started round number 2549o8545490854095049584 in round up debates. Sneaky man! tee hee

Now, he's so frustrated with all the weeds in the garden from last year, that he wants to give up and not have a garden. He says the only way he'll do it, is if we can use Round up.

Shall we? Do I give in?

What say you?

Jen

[Jeremy]

roundup is actually one of the safer weed killers to use as far as lasting effects since it dissepates so quickly after it is applied

[butwhymalemodels]

I'd rather have round up in my garden than my neighbor's cat's doo doo, which I currently fling back over the fence.

[negoc8]

With the cost of weed killer so out of control, I have been experimenting with black ground cloth. It seems to warm the soil nicely and improves growth. So far so good.
I have used the generic Round Up in the garden, I do understand the concern especially with the "eat em off the vine" veggies.

[Carver_OR]

Vinegar will work to kill weeds and grass. If you can find a commercial grade vinegar it works a heck of a lot faster and better. Do a search and read about it as a natural weed killer. I use it at times and it works great. It's a mild acid so be sure and take care when you apply it.

Pat
www.holdzit.com

[7pointbull]

Yes cover the entire garden with black ground colth. Have the seams of the cloth be at the top of your rows. You will cut down your germination time and grow bigger heathlier plants and water less.
If you use round up your soil has to go 5 years before it can be considered organic.

[Carver_OR]

Another thing about using vinegar as a weed killer is that it's organic and doesn't hurt the soil for very long, just a couple of day's I think.

Pat
www.holdzit.com

[Reel_Big_Fish]

Originally Posted by Carver_OR

Another thing about using vinegar as a weed killer is that it's organic and doesn't hurt the soil for very long, just a couple of day's I think.

Pat
www.holdzit.com

Where would you find a commerical grade vinegar? I would think that would be safe for around pets, too.

[Hogmaster]

Jennie,

We have the same issue. Spraying chemicals when you live adjacent to a river is just not something to take lightly. That is why I have 12' high blackberries in the bottom land. Crossbow there? Just can't do it.

But this vinegar thing is intruiguing!

Google Vinegar weed killer. Some good studies show it does indeed work (for some weeds anyway).

[7pointbull]

I use vingar and with non woody leaves you gan go as lite as 50/50 with water. It burns them within an hour and they wilt and turn brown so you know right away if it works. For the blackberries cut them to the ground first and nuke the new growth a few times with the vingar and it should knock them out. You can also cut them to the ground and cover the ground with a tarp for a year to tkill them. Plan on an agressive ground cover thatwill fill the void, hopefully something native if its next to a river or stream.

[Rustyoar]

Originally Posted by Jeremy

roundup is actually one of the safer weed killers to use as far as lasting effects since it dissepates so quickly after it is applied

It only goes in through the leaf not the roots, they won't take it up since it is "netural" on the soil. Unless you buy specifically organic, chances are round-up has been used around some of your foods. Another option is corn glutton as a pre-emergant, can't use it in the seeded rows however. I tell my wife its round up or she weeds. Even if you did get it on the plants, you won't be harvesting anything to eat off them anyway........

[Carver_OR]

Where would you find a commerical grade vinegar? I would think that would be safe for around pets, too.

From what I've read you can purchase a higher acid vinager at places that cater to restaraunts. The vinagar in Safeway and Freds is a 5% solution but I guess they make a 12 to 15% that is really hot. I've done well with the 5% killing a majority of the weeds that I've sprayed it on.

Pat www.holdzit.com

[Zarn]

We have switched over to black weed mesh for our larger plantings. We also polk holes in it and seed directly. It make a huge difference in germination time, weed control and has provided a water savings. Still organic here.

[Bait Bucket]

Originally Posted by Reel_Big_Fish

Where would you find a commerical grade vinegar? I would think that would be safe for around pets, too.

Better yet, what IS "commercial" vinegar? We don't allow herbicides near our veggies.

[Catch 22]

Sorry Jen, but if my wife told me I couldn't spray the weeds I would be buying her some kneepads and gardening gloves.

I know you live on the river, so that does create a possible issue. I'm not a scientist nor do I play one on the internet. But I can tell you I was raised on a commercial blueberry farm and we used Round Up constantly until berries started forming.
What it does to fish or organisms they depend on ?? I have no clue....

I will tell you the less Round Up you use, the slower it works and farther into the plant it will go. A fast kill is achieved with higher concentrations but will not likely take to the roots as well.

That's all I got.

Tell Bill he's not alone. LOL!

[DAB]

Hoe, Hoe, Hoe. You know the thing with a wooden handle.

Plant the garden so it can be hoed and tilled. I had a 50' X 100' Garden for years and done it this way with very little work after planting.
DAB

[scottishsetter]

Cut blackberries into the dirt;constantly. They don't like it.
For weeds BLACK PLASTIC; darksides them!

[Jennie@ifish]

The garden is quite a ways from any river danger, according to Bill and the guy down the street has a huge farm and I guess he uses round up all the way.
These are Bill's arguments. (Not mine!)

The garden is in the middle of a field so all of the weed spores end up in the garden. It's bad!

I can't do much of that kind of work, due to my disability. I used to love to do it, too. I miss that kinda stuff.

[Paddlefish]

When I bought my "blackberry plantation" the canes were 12 feet high. I threw my extension ladder across the top of them as a footbridge, to pick the fruit from my apple trees.

I've never been a fan of the DDT-eating promoters: "It'll kill everything else this week but your desired crop will be perfectly edible next week" or the "I'm at the top of the slope. Let the downhill neighbor's play structure/wetland/creek/Willamette/Columbia/estuary deal with it" approaches.

My machete did wonders, reducing the mass by 90%.

My home garden shredder took over from there, shredding the carnage into mulch and leaving only the gnarly rootwads, poking out of the ground. Those guys were easy to deal with. A whack with a mattock or shovel and they were gone.

Now I have only lawn to deal with -- weekly. That is an improvement, right?

[HntnFsh]

A budddy of mine worked for a guy that helicopter sprayed a lot.They went to a lot of seminars put on by the companies that supplied the products they sprayed.

At 1 of the seminars a rep for the company that made Roundup,drank a water glass of Roundup.Just to show how safe it is.

[yankemnbankem]

paddlefish......want to come over to my house with your machete? I got 5 acres of sticker patch for you to chop with your little sword.

Jennie, let Bill use the round up. Im sure he isnt going to be spraying all over kingdom come. BUT: if he is just using it to get out of weeding around already planted plants and spot spraying.........he needs to weed by hand. If spraying before planting, spray 4 weeks before planting, till when you see the foliage start to die and then wait a week for more weeds to show and spray once more and till up again and you'll be ready to plant.

[Hell-B]

You should be worried more about your fertilizers affecting the river than roundup.

[12pulls]

Roundup does not effect the water if applied to the weeds. It is a safe and very green product that is absorbed by the plant and leaves zero residue after a couple of hours. Like mention by the above post, fertilizers are far more damaging to the ecosystem by runoff than Roundup or 2-4-d (broadleaf killer).

[STGRule]

Too much stuff that says otherwise. (Can't vouch for the authority of this site):

Glyphosate-containing products are acutely toxic to animals, including humans. Symptoms include eye and skin irritation, headache, nausea, numbness, elevated blood pressure, and heart palpitations. The surfactant used in a common glyphosate product (Roundup) is more acutely toxic than glyphosate itself the combination of the two is yet more toxic.
Given the marketing of glyphosate herbicides as benign, it is striking that laboratory studies have found adverse effects in all standard categories of laboratory toxicology testing. These include medium-term toxicity (salivary gland lesions), long-term toxicity (inflamed stomach linings), genetic damage (in human blood cells), effects on reproduction (reduced sperm counts in rats; increased frequency of abnormal sperm in rabbits), and carcinogenicity (increased frequency of liver tumors in male rats and thyroid cancer in female rats).
In studies of people (mostly farmers) exposed to glyphosate herbicides, exposure is associated with an increased risk of miscarriages, premature birth, and the cancer non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.
Glyphosate has been called "extremely persistent" by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, and half lives of over 100 days have been measured in field tests in Iowa and New York. Glyphosate has been found in streams following agricultural, urban, and forestry applications.
Glyphosate treatment has reduced populations of beneficial insects, birds, and small mammals by destroying vegetation on which they depend for food and shelter.
In laboratory tests, glyphosate increased plants' susceptibility to disease and reduced the growth of nitrogen-fixing bacteria.

From HERE.

[Hell-B]

As with many things, personal susceptibility comes into play.
My Dad was a farmer and had a commercial sprayers' license. For years he sprayed his and most of the outlining farmers fields. This was before many chemicals were banned. He certainly didn't wear any protective clothing.
He is almost 91. His eyesight is perfect. He does some manual work every day to keep busy.
The mind is a powerful tool or handicap. If you think that it will harm you it may. If you have positive thoughts, maybe not.

[Jennie@ifish]

You sound like you've read "The Secret".

We don't use much if any fertilizer, except my Peter's for flowers in pots.

We use mulch and our chicken manure from the pen, mixed in. (It's really hot.)

There are no plants planted yet, except the permanent raspberries in the same area.

It's a 10x15 or so area where I usually plant lettuce, carrots, beets, etc.

Ruth's post is what scares me and what I've heard.

Plus, the neighbors tell me that it does hurt the worms and the birds eat the worms and.... you know, the chain thingy.

J

[nehalemguy]

Originally Posted by Hogmaster

Jennie,

We have the same issue. Spraying chemicals when you live adjacent to a river is just not something to take lightly. That is why I have 12' high blackberries in the bottom land. Crossbow there? Just can't do it.

But this vinegar thing is intruiguing!

Google Vinegar weed killer. Some good studies show it does indeed work (for some weeds anyway).

You could use Rodeo(sister product to Round Up) or Aquamaster. Both are approved for wetland/streamside applications.

E

[negoc8]

Did you say chickens? Our best defense against weeds are our chickens! Once the last of the corn and pumpkins have been picked, the chickens get pendded up in the garden. It's a win win. They fertilize as they work they get an amazing number of weed seeds plus it saves on feed. If the weather is good, in February I will take a little tiller with the wire looking "thatching" atachment, run it around and scratch up a new layer of seeds. I have found that a rather shallow spring tilling job helps too, leaves more weedseeds down deep in the dark!

[Jennie@ifish]

Our chickens are free range, but they have a darned lot of free range for 10 chickens!

[BillH]

Originally Posted by STGRule

Too much stuff that says otherwise. (Can't vouch for the authority of this site):

Reading this and the additional original materials from which this information was taken was indeed interesting. The "Journal of Pesticide Reform" seems a bit ultraconservative on this subject. I must agree that I wouldn't want to breathe Roundup spray on a day to day basis nor would I want to pour it "straight" on my hands, nor spray streamside plants with it, but it seems no more dangerous used sparingly than eating a lot of the high sugar and cholesterol foods we so commonly are exposed to.

I have a fenced level garden area of about 24'x36' of which little more than one half SHOULD be treated with Roundup annually prior to rototilling so that the weeds don't just pop back though the soil and terrorize us through the growing season. Of course, there are always seeds that have not germinated which will survive this procedure, but weekly control of a few minutes will keep them from being a problem.

I observe commercial fields everywhere early in the year to be treated with who knows what chemicals prior to planting so I'd guess that we are and have been exposed to small amounts of glyphosate in our foods unless we have lived fully "organic" lives. Too much of about anything is not good for us but I just can't be fearful of a little chemical in my food, nor am I concerned that in about .0001 of my property that the nightcrawlers may suffer from slightly stunted growth.

Glyphosate-containing products are acutely toxic to animals, including humans. Symptoms include eye and skin irritation, headache, nausea, numbness, elevated blood pressure, and heart palpitations. The surfactant used in a common glyphosate product (Roundup) is more acutely toxic than glyphosate itself the combination of the two is yet more toxic.
Given the marketing of glyphosate herbicides as benign, it is striking that laboratory studies have found adverse effects in all standard categories of laboratory toxicology testing. These include medium-term toxicity (salivary gland lesions), long-term toxicity (inflamed stomach linings), genetic damage (in human blood cells), effects on reproduction (reduced sperm counts in rats; increased frequency of abnormal sperm in rabbits), and carcinogenicity (increased frequency of liver tumors in male rats and thyroid cancer in female rats).
In studies of people (mostly farmers) exposed to glyphosate herbicides, exposure is associated with an increased risk of miscarriages, premature birth, and the cancer non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.
Glyphosate has been called "extremely persistent" by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, and half lives of over 100 days have been measured in field tests in Iowa and New York. Glyphosate has been found in streams following agricultural, urban, and forestry applications.
Glyphosate treatment has reduced populations of beneficial insects, birds, and small mammals by destroying vegetation on which they depend for food and shelter.
In laboratory tests, glyphosate increased plants' susceptibility to disease and reduced the growth of nitrogen-fixing bacteria.

From HERE.

[Hell-B]

Originally Posted by Jennie@ifish

You sound like you've read "The Secret".

We don't use much if any fertilizer, except my Peter's for flowers in pots.

We use mulch and our chicken manure from the pen, mixed in. (It's really hot.)

There are no plants planted yet, except the permanent raspberries in the same area.

It's a 10x15 or so area where I usually plant lettuce, carrots, beets, etc.

Ruth's post is what scares me and what I've heard.

Plus, the neighbors tell me that it does hurt the worms and the birds eat the worms and.... you know, the chain thingy.

J

I haven't read the secret. Guess I'll need to check it out.

I'm just had a upbringing on a farm where common sense prevailed.

One thing about the chicken manure. My day would never use it because of the bugs that were associated with it. He still has a sharp mind. I will ask when I talk to him.

[StickFish]

Jen all boys like fire - get him one of those propane weed burners and a case of propane bottles to go with it - no more weeds in short order

[happybrew]

We don't use pesticides or chemical fertilizers either. We keep rabbits and find that they are very useful. Rabbit manure makes an outstanding fertilizer, and can be applied directly, unlike chicken manure. Our roses love them, and each bush will consume a 5 gallon bucket of the stuff each week if we water every day.

The weeds love it too, though. We need to hand weed, but after harvest, we just let it go. In the spring, we pen the rabbits into a section at a time and let them munch and fertilize to their hearts content. Then we turn the soil and plant. It works very well. Last year we had so many raspberries, tomatoes, green beans, peppers, zucchini, etc that we only ran out sometime around March or April.

It's amazing how efficient rabbits can be in removing weeds. They like them more than the pellet feed, up to a point. In the spring, after they've had a taste, they are continually trying to escape their cages for more, which can be a problem if there are plants we want to keep. It took a while for our strawberries to get a start this year because we had one that would jump out when the kids went to feed it, and it nibbled the plants down pretty good.

happybrew

[Chrome Bumper]

Let him play with chemicals. The weed burner does sound like fun though. Harbor freight has them.

[CATCH AND EAT]

Originally Posted by Jennie@ifish

It's a constant battle around here.

I don't like the idea of round up in my garden.

I caught Bill using it where he put the new artichokes in. It started round number 2549o8545490854095049584 in round up debates. Sneaky man! tee hee

Now, he's so frustrated with all the weeds in the garden from last year, that he wants to give up and not have a garden. He says the only way he'll do it, is if we can use Round up.

Shall we? Do I give in?

What say you?

Jen

Let the man kill the weeds. Or hire local middle schoolers to weekly weed your garden.

[Two Fister]

If you're going to spray do it soon. Once the weeds start to set seed Roundup will only accelerate the seeds moving to maturity. Found that out the hard way with Cheatgrass last year....

Roundup has a very short lifespan once it's in contact with soil. Maybe shoot fallriverguy a PM as he has a lot of knowledge about the subject.
TF

[James in Idaho]

Get the book "Square Foot Gardening" (or something close to that) and learn about black plastic. If you really want to kill your weeds, water the area well then cover with clear plastic, it will sterialize the soil. Black plastic and soaker hose sure makes life easier.

[northriver1]

No where is it written that only men are responsible for pulling weeds. Might want to think about getting some cheap grade plastic and put it over the garden spot at the end of the growing season. Keeps the weeds at bay and allows you to get your peas in early spring. But if all else fails Round Up works for me..

[BrianMaguire]

Originally Posted by Hogmaster

Jennie,

We have the same issue. Spraying chemicals when you live adjacent to a river is just not something to take lightly. That is why I have 12' high blackberries in the bottom land. Crossbow there? Just can't do it.

The blackberries probably do more harm by crowding out all the native vegitation than the cross bow will. What you can do, this works real well in those cold but dry winter days, is to get some gloves a long 2x6, throw the 2X6 up on the berries, climp it to smash down the berries, then burn it. come back in mid june apply crossbow and viola no blackberries.

HBB won't burn in big masses, there is too much space between stalks, but crush them down and they burn real well. I use a drip torch, 4:1 diesel to gas

Mid June to July is a great time to round up black berries. As soon as the growth has stopped and the bushes start storing energy and sucking nutrients into the root system is a good time for chemicals.

[BrianMaguire]

Jennie,

we won't use chemicals in our garden either. What works is to use a combo rototilling several times a year and leaves. I cover my garden in a good 2 ft of Oak leaves in the fall. Instead of hauling them away I cover the garden with them. till them in in the spring It works.

[freespool]

Switching to raised beds has reduced our garden weeding by over 50%.
I like the 3ft high beds, makes weeding a breeze, no bending over.

[Jennie@ifish]

Square foot gardening! I've done that! I used to do those all the time. Remember seeing it on TV and I went for it! It's so cool! Wish I had the means for the containers, these days. I miss it. I had awesome covers for them and everything!

J

[CATCH AND EAT]

I've done big foot gardening.

[STGRule]

We went to raised bed garden boxes (not 3' tall, though that would be handy) with soaker hose buried about 6 inches. Easy, easy weeding and not many weeds in the summer as the seeds on the surface only get rain water. And I pack in the plants so they shade out the weeds too.

[MsOutdrs]

Not necessarily an enviornmentalist here but I have been trying to stay away from chemicals, etc., that could/would eventually wash into our rivers, etc. There is some sort of corn thing (I know, I know..vague) that is supposed to be very good for controlling weeds and not harmful in the runoff. Its a corn waste stuff. I haven't used it cause I don't have a garden (too darned many fir trees) but I have neighbors that do. If anyone is interested, I can certainly find out the name and pass it on. For the yard, I just pull the weeds and dump the barkdust on to smother them. No light, no weeds! Or so I'm told!

[Raining_Kings]

Have the same argument in my household. Comprimise was that I can use it everywhere, but inside the veggie bed themselves.

FWIW - Was getting frustrated with Roundup not working so well for me, THEN I read the instructions where it says to apply on sunny, warm days (Whatever those are). Guess the plant has to be actively growing to absorb the herbicide. So much for doing it after work.

-= Scott

[Chrome Bumper]

Do roto till, but that ends when the plants grow into the rows. Leaves work, peas love them. Just mix the seeds in sycamore leaves and old grass clipping. But have roundup(actually a clone in the 2 1/2 galon jug) and 2 1/2 jug of crossbow too. Trimec for the lawn. If I could get the tractor in the raised beds I'd go with that. When its sunny clear plastic will kill grass in a few hours.

[jaxflyfish]

I had always used Round UP in the garden until I was talking with one of my employees who gave me some info on Long Term Nerve Damage as well as Lymphoma.....made me rethink my approach.

I was working on an eagle project for a kid at our church and we were clearing brush near a creek. Clark County had someone there to get us started and they stated that no roundup or other pesticides could be used within 50 feet of the creek.

It was about that point that I went out and bought a nice tiller. A couple of runs through the garden in winter (as well as before and after the gardening season) and the weeds just give up after a while.

[garyk]

Originally Posted by StickFish

Jen all boys like fire - get him one of those propane weed burners and a case of propane bottles to go with it - no more weeds in short order

Originally Posted by Chrome Bumper

The weed burner does sound like fun though. Harbor freight has them.

The weed burners are GREAT and way more fun than a backpack sprayer...like a mini-flamethrower. Fire it up and ATTACK the weeds - Take THAT burdock, and nettle and snake root, and blackberry, and morning glory and tiesal and yarrow, and buttercup --- burn all of you BURN!!!!

Like I said - FUN. And since there's no overspray, you can do some close-quarters combat with the weeds infiltrating the veggies.

Rather than bottles, I just use a 1 gallon refillable LP tank.

(you can get an adapter to re-fill the 16oz bottles from a larger tank...that would make the burner unit lighter to carry)

[EZOP]

I've done the plastic, I've done the pulling, I've done the Round Up. It was all a pain in someway or another.
Now I only do two things that work like a charm and it's pretty easy.

I put my lawn clippings around all the plants 2" to 4" thick and as wide as needed. Weeds are now covered from sunlight. You will get a weed sneaking through once in a while, that's when I pull it.

I've done this for 3 years now and it's been working like a charm. It keeps the weeds down, mosture in, the grass decays quickly and the worms love it. Plus it's a great way to get rid of my clippings.

[SILVERSINK]

I hope that not very many of you guys buy your Vegis ,Fruit or Meat from any grocery stores. You don't even want to know what the Farmers are using to control weeds and bugs.

[MsOutdrs]

I LOVE the mini flame thrower but I've cooked a few plants, almost melted the drip system hoses, etc., even caught one of our big doug firs on fire (well, a small fire...was scooping up dirt, anything I could find...quick) Beware of an old woman with a flame thrower!!! haha

[Jaws]

Originally Posted by SILVERSINK

I hope that not very many of you guys buy your Vegis ,Fruit or Meat from any grocery stores. You don't even want to know what the Farmers are using to control weeds and bugs.

In the US? Legally and safely applied Chemicals and fertilizers. You know something we don't?

[Chrome Bumper]

Cover crop work to, Annual ryegrass in fall, close mowing in spring before tilling and all the hard to kill weeds and seeds get crowed out. Both mulch and fertilizier. Really makes for good garden soil.